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Is every single body in the world intended to be within the so-called healthy BMI range?

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  • HealthyBodySickMind
    HealthyBodySickMind Posts: 1,206 Member
    edited November 2017
    SezxyStef wrote: »

    based studies bones are 15% of total weight so based on that your bones weight 23.25lbs her's 19.5lbs...that is not significant..so the fact you weigh 25lbs more is not bone...that accounts for appx 4lbs.



    Out of curiosity, do you have a source for the 15% body weight for bones? That seems really high to me. My dexa scan put my bone weight as less than 5% of my body weight, and that was with above average bone density and low normal bmi.

    Never mind. I see where you got it. It's like the first thing that pops up when you google it. I think it's a difference in convention of what the dexa report was including in "bone", and what the other articles were including in "bone". The dexa report splits total body weight out into "fat tissue," "lean tissue," and "bone mineral content." However, bones are made of both mineral content and other lean tissue, so for total bone mass would actually be the total bone mineral content plus part of the "lean tissue." The dexa splits out just the mineral content because that's what the scan sees, but if you actually removed all the bones to weigh them up, that mass would be both the bone mineral part and also the soft tissue parts of the bone.
  • SezxyStef
    SezxyStef Posts: 15,270 Member
    SezxyStef wrote: »

    based studies bones are 15% of total weight so based on that your bones weight 23.25lbs her's 19.5lbs...that is not significant..so the fact you weigh 25lbs more is not bone...that accounts for appx 4lbs.



    Out of curiosity, do you have a source for the 15% body weight for bones? That seems really high to me. My dexa scan put my bone weight as less than 5% of my body weight, and that was with above average bone density and low normal bmi.

    um yah that would be the year 1 text book from medical school...

    you do know that dexa scans have an error rate as high as +-10%..they are not the gold standard everyone thought they were...hydration etc has a huge impact as does manufacturer etc.
  • HealthyBodySickMind
    HealthyBodySickMind Posts: 1,206 Member
    @sezcystef, see above. I already corrected it. Of course hydration would affect the soft tissue part of the report, but it doesn't make much sense for it to change the reading of bone mineral content.
  • SezxyStef
    SezxyStef Posts: 15,270 Member
    @sezcystef, see above. I already corrected it. Of course hydration would affect the soft tissue part of the report, but it doesn't make much sense for it to change the reading of bone mineral content.

    Yes it is apparently but if you look at an anatomy textbook from 1st year medical it has skeletal mass as 12-15% of bodyweight (on average)

    bone mineral content is not skeletal weight.

    bone mineral content would be the amount of minerals such as calcium in the bones for a measurement or indicator of strength or bone density. This would help pinpoint issue with osteoporosis etc.

  • mph323
    mph323 Posts: 3,566 Member

    SezxyStef wrote: »

    based studies bones are 15% of total weight so based on that your bones weight 23.25lbs her's 19.5lbs...that is not significant..so the fact you weigh 25lbs more is not bone...that accounts for appx 4lbs.

    Isn't there a flaw here, though? (Unless this was addressed later on - I was having a little trouble following the maths...) :)

    The difference between 15% of my highest weight and my current weight (40+ lbs lower) is about 8 1/2 lbs. If I had had say 100 lbs to lose the difference would have been even more significant. Wouldn't the flat 15% number (+/- x%) have to be adjusted as a person's weight went up and down? I agree that two people of the same height, weight, and gender wouldn't have a significant difference in bone weight, but I don't see how the same person at two significantly different weights would have drastically different weight in their bones?
  • SezxyStef
    SezxyStef Posts: 15,270 Member
    mph323 wrote: »
    SezxyStef wrote: »

    based studies bones are 15% of total weight so based on that your bones weight 23.25lbs her's 19.5lbs...that is not significant..so the fact you weigh 25lbs more is not bone...that accounts for appx 4lbs.

    Isn't there a flaw here, though? (Unless this was addressed later on - I was having a little trouble following the maths...) :)

    The difference between 15% of my highest weight and my current weight (40+ lbs lower) is about 8 1/2 lbs. If I had had say 100 lbs to lose the difference would have been even more significant. Wouldn't the flat 15% number (+/- x%) have to be adjusted as a person's weight went up and down? I agree that two people of the same height, weight, and gender wouldn't have a significant difference in bone weight, but I don't see how the same person at two significantly different weights would have drastically different weight in their bones?

    okay so logic would say that a persons skeleton will weight 15% of their weight after they are done growing.
    and in response to weight gain get more dense and stronger

    Gina M. Agostini, Ann H. Ross. The Effect of Weight on the Femur: A Cross-Sectional Analysis*. Journal of Forensic Sciences, 2011; 56 (2): 339 DOI: 10.1111/j.1556-4029.2010.01648.x

    The person who is obese while growing has adaptations happening to accomodate their size...but their bones aren't making them fat their fat is making their bones adapt.

    I mean lets be logical here...once you are done growing you are done....you are not going to get taller or wider etc at the skeletal level and if you get fat in your 30's that won't make your bones magically grow more...but it will make them adapt and be stronger...
  • mph323
    mph323 Posts: 3,566 Member
    SezxyStef wrote: »
    mph323 wrote: »
    SezxyStef wrote: »

    based studies bones are 15% of total weight so based on that your bones weight 23.25lbs her's 19.5lbs...that is not significant..so the fact you weigh 25lbs more is not bone...that accounts for appx 4lbs.

    Isn't there a flaw here, though? (Unless this was addressed later on - I was having a little trouble following the maths...) :)

    The difference between 15% of my highest weight and my current weight (40+ lbs lower) is about 8 1/2 lbs. If I had had say 100 lbs to lose the difference would have been even more significant. Wouldn't the flat 15% number (+/- x%) have to be adjusted as a person's weight went up and down? I agree that two people of the same height, weight, and gender wouldn't have a significant difference in bone weight, but I don't see how the same person at two significantly different weights would have drastically different weight in their bones?

    okay so logic would say that a persons skeleton will weight 15% of their weight after they are done growing.
    and in response to weight gain get more dense and stronger

    Gina M. Agostini, Ann H. Ross. The Effect of Weight on the Femur: A Cross-Sectional Analysis*. Journal of Forensic Sciences, 2011; 56 (2): 339 DOI: 10.1111/j.1556-4029.2010.01648.x

    The person who is obese while growing has adaptations happening to accomodate their size...but their bones aren't making them fat their fat is making their bones adapt.

    I mean lets be logical here...once you are done growing you are done....you are not going to get taller or wider etc at the skeletal level and if you get fat in your 30's that won't make your bones magically grow more...but it will make them adapt and be stronger...[/quote]

    Oh I completely agree with that. I guess what I was looking for was some qualification of the flat 15%. By saying 15% at the point where full growth is reached it makes more sense to me. I was having trouble wrapping my head around bones growing and shrinking with fat :)
  • tomteboda
    tomteboda Posts: 2,171 Member
    SezxyStef wrote: »
    tomteboda wrote: »
    SezxyStef wrote: »
    SezxyStef wrote: »
    I always find those that dismiss BMI as a decent measure for the average person usually don't fall in the healthy range and either believe it's due to "bone" size etc or are in denial about their weight.

    There are outliers in the world and they will fall outside the "health range" but not often and not for their entire life.

    I used to think I would never fit in the healthy range due to "bone size'...psh...I was so in denial about being overweight/fat.

    I seem to recall reading somewhere (if someone can find something like this, please post it) that two people of the same gender and height can have their skeletal mass differ by roughly 8 lbs.

    Anecdotally, in my experience "big bones" mostly come up from people who've never had a DEXA scan or other reliable body composition testing done. :neutral:

    what about age?

    and 8lbs in just bone I can't really see it...esp if someone is same height...age...and gender.

    that's significant....

    I did read an article (couldn't find any studies) that said bone size can account for a couple pounds but that person would be taller/bigger...

    but wouldn't account for them being overweight.

    I mean I wear a size 8-9 shoe ...that's pretty big for a woman...I am still in a size 4 pant and size small shirt...and I am broad across the shoulders etc...I am classic "big boned" ...but I still fall in average BMI and would be a lower number if I lost 10lbs (and yes my body could stand it)

    So I'm 5'9" and currently weigh 155 lbs. I have a good friend who is 5'9" and weighs 130 lbs. If you put her wrist and mine overlapping, mine is a good 33% larger. She has ankles that measure around half what mine do. She has beautiful, delicate hands and graceful collarbones. Even thin, my bones look massive. Honestly, the only shocking thing is that I ONLY weigh 25 lbs more than her given the clear difference in our frames.

    I think you have misunderstood what i have said.

    bones account for a significant amount of your personal weight but that doesn't account for the mass difference between your friend and yourself.

    based studies bones are 15% of total weight so based on that your bones weight 23.25lbs her's 19.5lbs...that is not significant..so the fact you weigh 25lbs more is not bone...that accounts for appx 4lbs.

    But it's not just bone mass. If my bones are wider and hips are more broadly splayed, then I also have more of everything between and around those bones. In our cases, as well, I have very large muscles that are evident in my calves and arms while hers are slender and tiny. Our bodies have always differed like that.

    Anaomists can tell you that most classroom skeletons are very small because they almost all come from Asia. This is a genetic difference between populations that is observable. There is also considerable diversity within populations. Those differences are also observable.
  • SezxyStef
    SezxyStef Posts: 15,270 Member
    tomteboda wrote: »
    SezxyStef wrote: »
    tomteboda wrote: »
    SezxyStef wrote: »
    SezxyStef wrote: »
    I always find those that dismiss BMI as a decent measure for the average person usually don't fall in the healthy range and either believe it's due to "bone" size etc or are in denial about their weight.

    There are outliers in the world and they will fall outside the "health range" but not often and not for their entire life.

    I used to think I would never fit in the healthy range due to "bone size'...psh...I was so in denial about being overweight/fat.

    I seem to recall reading somewhere (if someone can find something like this, please post it) that two people of the same gender and height can have their skeletal mass differ by roughly 8 lbs.

    Anecdotally, in my experience "big bones" mostly come up from people who've never had a DEXA scan or other reliable body composition testing done. :neutral:

    what about age?

    and 8lbs in just bone I can't really see it...esp if someone is same height...age...and gender.

    that's significant....

    I did read an article (couldn't find any studies) that said bone size can account for a couple pounds but that person would be taller/bigger...

    but wouldn't account for them being overweight.

    I mean I wear a size 8-9 shoe ...that's pretty big for a woman...I am still in a size 4 pant and size small shirt...and I am broad across the shoulders etc...I am classic "big boned" ...but I still fall in average BMI and would be a lower number if I lost 10lbs (and yes my body could stand it)

    So I'm 5'9" and currently weigh 155 lbs. I have a good friend who is 5'9" and weighs 130 lbs. If you put her wrist and mine overlapping, mine is a good 33% larger. She has ankles that measure around half what mine do. She has beautiful, delicate hands and graceful collarbones. Even thin, my bones look massive. Honestly, the only shocking thing is that I ONLY weigh 25 lbs more than her given the clear difference in our frames.

    I think you have misunderstood what i have said.

    bones account for a significant amount of your personal weight but that doesn't account for the mass difference between your friend and yourself.

    based studies bones are 15% of total weight so based on that your bones weight 23.25lbs her's 19.5lbs...that is not significant..so the fact you weigh 25lbs more is not bone...that accounts for appx 4lbs.

    But it's not just bone mass. If my bones are wider and hips are more broadly splayed, then I also have more of everything between and around those bones. In our cases, as well, I have very large muscles that are evident in my calves and arms while hers are slender and tiny. Our bodies have always differed like that.

    Anaomists can tell you that most classroom skeletons are very small because they almost all come from Asia. This is a genetic difference between populations that is observable. There is also considerable diversity within populations. Those differences are also observable.

    so what is your point...???? you started this particular part of hte thread because I said 8lbs in bone mass difference wasn't viable imo...you countered with your friend and you as an example...which has been shown to not prove anything other than 8lbs of bones difference in 2 people of the same height probably isn't valid.

    you weight difference is due to some bone, some connective tissue some muscle and yes even some fat.

    Your bones account for 12-15% of your total weight...so does hers...
    bmi range for a woman who is 5 ft 9 is 125-155...you both fall into a normal bmi range.

    Unless she is a different race not sure where you are going now???? and if she is a different race your argument is moot still.

  • SezxyStef
    SezxyStef Posts: 15,270 Member
    tomteboda wrote: »

    1st one is an abstract and is from 2002...almost 20 years old???? and it doesn't address your assertion that bone size difference can account for 8+lbs in body weight variance of two people who are same gender, height and race.

    It addresses that we have evolved based on climate and that we as a population aren't as big as we once were.

    "Geographic variation in both body size and shape in earlier humans paralleled latitudinal clines observed today. Climatic adaptation is the most likely primary cause for these gradients, overlain in more recent populations by nutritional effects on growth."

    and the 2nd one doesn't prove anything about your original assertion either...we know that Asians have a different BMI scale than we do and has nothing to do with your original argument or the original post...

    so perhaps it should just end here.

    My original assertion..BMI is a good measure for the average population and that there are few outliers in that population...and that it is not "bone size" that will account for people being categorized as overweight or obese it's fat.

  • yskaldir
    yskaldir Posts: 202 Member
    Not sure if anyone mentioned this yet, but 25 is the cutoff for people of European descent; for East Asians (Chinese etc) it's 24, for Southern Asians (Indians etc) it's 23.