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Gaining muscle in a deficit?

psuLemon

While in another thread, I was browsing one of the links and found this rather interesting. It walks through several conditions and corresponding training experience in which you can gain muscle. Figured i would bring this in, as it's highly discussed on the forums.

http://sci-fit.net/2017/bulking-deficit-gaining/

Replies

edickson76

Thanks for posting this @psuLemon. I'm surprised no one else has commented. I've had this experience, but I have never generalized from it. Nice to know I'm not alone. I recall someone else posting a link to another article written on muscle gains during recomp (or slow cuts), but can't remember the thread. It was an article co-written by Helms.

As far as advice to all the people who come on the forum wanting to do this...I still think it is better to set expectations low on muscle gains while cutting. As the article made clear, what you get are general trends and each person is going to be different--some will achieve, others will not.

UncelDolan09

Hi, thanks for posting, that's a good chart. Generally speaking, I'd say if keep the protein up and the Workout unchanged you should at least not LOSE muscle. Gaining muscle will be hard since you're in a deficit, but as the chart says, it depends on your Body Fat %.

dbanks80

How do they define Untrained and Trained?

Untrained = someone who has not lifted b4?
Trained = Someone who lifts regularly?

I've been lifting for a year am I untrained or trained?

trigden1991

dbanks80 wrote: »

How do they define Untrained and Trained?

Untrained = someone who has not lifted b4?
Trained = Someone who lifts regularly?

I've been lifting for a year am I untrained or trained?

I’d probably say untrained still unless your programming and diet has been 100% all year and you’ve maximised your noob gains.

dbanks80

trigden1991 wrote: »

dbanks80 wrote: »

How do they define Untrained and Trained?

Untrained = someone who has not lifted b4?
Trained = Someone who lifts regularly?

I've been lifting for a year am I untrained or trained?

I’d probably say untrained still unless your programming and diet has been 100% all year and you’ve maximised your noob gains.

Thanks!

psuLemon

dbanks80 wrote: »

How do they define Untrained and Trained?

Untrained = someone who has not lifted b4?
Trained = Someone who lifts regularly?

I've been lifting for a year am I untrained or trained?

From the link.

Untrained = Someone who is new to lifting. A beginner.

Trained = These are intermediately trained lifters. Usually, they will have 2+ years of experience with strength training. They need to have a certain strength level for 1RM (I calculate this myself based on subject body weight, lean body mass, strength level, and training experience).

Advanced = These people are usually athletes or bodybuilders. They are very strong in relation to body weight, and usually have a lot of lean mass (i.e. rugby players). Or, they could be bodybuilders with a lot of lean mass and low body fat %.

psuLemon

UncelDolan69 wrote: »

Hi, thanks for posting, that's a good chart. Generally speaking, I'd say if keep the protein up and the Workout unchanged you should at least not LOSE muscle. Gaining muscle will be hard since you're in a deficit, but as the chart says, it depends on your Body Fat %.

There are a lot of factors; prior experience, age, protein levels, workout program, genetics, etc..

Even so, if you train to gain muscle with adequate volume there is a chance you can achieve it pending you arent overly aggressive with your fat loss. I will say, it makes it harder if you are following low carb or keto diets (you in the general sense).

heybales

psuLemon wrote: »

dbanks80 wrote: »

How do they define Untrained and Trained?

Untrained = someone who has not lifted b4?
Trained = Someone who lifts regularly?

I've been lifting for a year am I untrained or trained?

From the link.

Untrained = Someone who is new to lifting. A beginner.

Trained = These are intermediately trained lifters. Usually, they will have 2+ years of experience with strength training. They need to have a certain strength level for 1RM (I calculate this myself based on subject body weight, lean body mass, strength level, and training experience).

Advanced = These people are usually athletes or bodybuilders. They are very strong in relation to body weight, and usually have a lot of lean mass (i.e. rugby players). Or, they could be bodybuilders with a lot of lean mass and low body fat %.

And to add to those time spans.

That's not spending the time dinking around at the gym doing some lifts here and there, and you've done that for a year so now not untrained or beginner.
Rather continuous time on some program actually advancing.

Probably half my years lifting are at some point totally dropping lifting for my focus of endurance cardio training, so only talking about winter time (if not sick), and slowly dropping some as spring progresses.
Doesn't mean I'm advanced because of many years doing it. Doesn't even mean advanced if you add up all the months together.
I'm pretty much back to beginner as far as what these descriptions are referring to, despite knowledge of the activity.

bweath2

Any idea what the recommended calorie percentages are for each category?
An 800 kcal deficit for my wife is nearly 50% whereas for me it's only about 25%.

UncelDolan09

bweath2 wrote: »

Any idea what the recommended calorie percentages are for each category?
An 800 kcal deficit for my wife is nearly 50% whereas for me it's only about 25%.

As far as I know it goes like this:
Lean Bulk: Calculate your TDEE, add 10-20% (although 20% might be too much sometimes)
Moderate Cut: TDEE - 10%
Aggressive Cut: TDEE - 20-25%. Anything above that won't be beneficial.
Aggressive Bulk: Eat 10 BigMacs a day

Hope this helps! Generally speaking, I def. recommend to always eat at least 1g of Protein per lbs of Bodyweight, to minimize muscle loss during cutting.

PAV8888

Since this is apparently NOT a thing...

I was discussing lean mass gains in a deficit with a DEXA scan dude.

With her permission he shared the 3.3 month results of a 43yo female client of his.
Mass: -12.1lbs (177 -> 164.9)
Fat: -21.5lbs
Lean: +9.3lbs
% Fat: -9.7% (45.3% -> 35.6%)

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B5ivy2PKgcqcUFRJbHJ6UWZKXzZJelVMYkpPcUc4a0RFalQ4/view

Davidsdottir

PAV8888 wrote: »

Since this is apparently NOT a thing...

I was discussing lean mass gains in a deficit with a DEXA scan dude.

With her permission he shared the 3.3 month results of a 43yo female client of his.
Mass: -12.1lbs (177 -> 164.9)
Fat: -21.5lbs
Lean: +9.3lbs
% Fat: -9.7% (45.3% -> 35.6%)

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B5ivy2PKgcqcUFRJbHJ6UWZKXzZJelVMYkpPcUc4a0RFalQ4/view

Sign me up for gaining almost 10 lbs LBM in less than 4 months! LOL

PAV8888

Davidsdottir wrote: »

Sign me up for gaining almost 10 lbs LBM in less than 4 months! LOL

Other than LOLing... the result was there. I can think of a couple of reasons as to why lean mass might increase irrespective of muscle mass. And the fact that pelvis and torso are disproportionate may constitute a hint. However I still see large fat decreases and small lean increases in all the appendages.... and that was a pretty drastic deficit on a non teen-aged female.

psuLemon

Davidsdottir wrote: »

PAV8888 wrote: »

Since this is apparently NOT a thing...

I was discussing lean mass gains in a deficit with a DEXA scan dude.

With her permission he shared the 3.3 month results of a 43yo female client of his.
Mass: -12.1lbs (177 -> 164.9)
Fat: -21.5lbs
Lean: +9.3lbs
% Fat: -9.7% (45.3% -> 35.6%)

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B5ivy2PKgcqcUFRJbHJ6UWZKXzZJelVMYkpPcUc4a0RFalQ4/view

Sign me up for gaining almost 10 lbs LBM in less than 4 months! LOL

Keep in mind that lbm =/= muscle. Its all things not fat mass and plenty of things can have an impact including glycogen levels, muscle, water weight, etc... i have work with women who were similar in gains but they were also new to lifting.

pbryd

There's a video on some interesting research where people cycled two weeks of dieting and two weeks of maintenance. Layne explains it here..

https://youtu.be/6gQCqxnchR4?t=3m11s

firef1y72

dbanks80 wrote: »

How do they define Untrained and Trained?

Untrained = someone who has not lifted b4?
Trained = Someone who lifts regularly?

I've been lifting for a year am I untrained or trained?

I'd also like to know if I'm considered trained or untrained. Been following 5/3/1 for a year after doing 6 months of 5x5. I think I underestimate how strong I am (doesn't help being the only older female watching the very experienced lifters lifting 2x what I can manage) but 3 out of 4 of my big lift 1rpm are in the intermediate level according to strength levels with my bench being a couple of kg below intermediate (and if I keep the same 1rpm when I restart losing weight in the next year I'll be tipped in to intermediate before I get down to where I want to be).

Kadoober

Yay for Untrained slow cut!
The interwebs have shown me I'm doing it right.
*clicks heels*

heybales

firef1y72 wrote: »

dbanks80 wrote: »

How do they define Untrained and Trained?

Untrained = someone who has not lifted b4?
Trained = Someone who lifts regularly?

I've been lifting for a year am I untrained or trained?

I'd also like to know if I'm considered trained or untrained. Been following 5/3/1 for a year after doing 6 months of 5x5. I think I underestimate how strong I am (doesn't help being the only older female watching the very experienced lifters lifting 2x what I can manage) but 3 out of 4 of my big lift 1rpm are in the intermediate level according to strength levels with my bench being a couple of kg below intermediate (and if I keep the same 1rpm when I restart losing weight in the next year I'll be tipped in to intermediate before I get down to where I want to be).

That would be intermediate at this point, past the 1 solid year beginner.

nickbullett

Good to know, I'm still losing but I've started lifting and I'd like to think the gains I've been seeing weren't imaginary. Next stop swollapalooza.

colors_fade

PAV8888 wrote: »

Davidsdottir wrote: »

Sign me up for gaining almost 10 lbs LBM in less than 4 months! LOL

Other than LOLing... the result was there. I can think of a couple of reasons as to why lean mass might increase irrespective of muscle mass. And the fact that pelvis and torso are disproportionate may constitute a hint. However I still see large fat decreases and small lean increases in all the appendages.... and that was a pretty drastic deficit on a non teen-aged female.

That's really awesome to see in a DEXA result. And inspiring. 43-year old female.

I just weighed today, down another 7. I've lost 22 lbs. in just a 20.4 weeks. About 1 lb. per week. I took some measurements at the start. On my last weigh-in I measured my arms again: they had increased in diameter by .75 inch, while I had dropped 15 lbs. over the same amount of time. I've been doing strength training for 4+ years now, so definitely noob gains gone and I'd fall into the Intermediate category.

From my anecdotal evidence only, that chart's "Trained/Slow Cut" seems correct. I just wish I had a DEXA scan to back it up. Very cool information though.

Silkysausage

I'm developing new gains, very slight but still there whilst on a deficit. How long should I go until I need to lean bulk? Female, lifting 4 days a week, 117pounds, 5 foot 3

psuLemon

heybales wrote: »

firef1y72 wrote: »

dbanks80 wrote: »

How do they define Untrained and Trained?

Untrained = someone who has not lifted b4?
Trained = Someone who lifts regularly?

I've been lifting for a year am I untrained or trained?

I'd also like to know if I'm considered trained or untrained. Been following 5/3/1 for a year after doing 6 months of 5x5. I think I underestimate how strong I am (doesn't help being the only older female watching the very experienced lifters lifting 2x what I can manage) but 3 out of 4 of my big lift 1rpm are in the intermediate level according to strength levels with my bench being a couple of kg below intermediate (and if I keep the same 1rpm when I restart losing weight in the next year I'll be tipped in to intermediate before I get down to where I want to be).

That would be intermediate at this point, past the 1 solid year beginner.

This analysis defines people as a beginner until they have 2 years lifting experience, at that point they are intermediate.

edickson76

Silkysausage wrote: »

I'm developing new gains, very slight but still there whilst on a deficit. How long should I go until I need to lean bulk? Female, lifting 4 days a week, 117pounds, 5 foot 3

If you like the way you look, then you don't need to lean bulk. If you get to a point where you want more muscle, Lyle MacDonald recommends 19-24% body fat for women before bulking. You could also just eat at maintenance or slightly above and slowly recomp.

heybales

psuLemon wrote: »

heybales wrote: »

firef1y72 wrote: »

dbanks80 wrote: »

How do they define Untrained and Trained?

Untrained = someone who has not lifted b4?
Trained = Someone who lifts regularly?

I've been lifting for a year am I untrained or trained?

I'd also like to know if I'm considered trained or untrained. Been following 5/3/1 for a year after doing 6 months of 5x5. I think I underestimate how strong I am (doesn't help being the only older female watching the very experienced lifters lifting 2x what I can manage) but 3 out of 4 of my big lift 1rpm are in the intermediate level according to strength levels with my bench being a couple of kg below intermediate (and if I keep the same 1rpm when I restart losing weight in the next year I'll be tipped in to intermediate before I get down to where I want to be).

That would be intermediate at this point, past the 1 solid year beginner.

This analysis defines people as a beginner until they have 2 years lifting experience, at that point they are intermediate.

Crap - forgot to scroll up and see I already knew that for this thread topic.

sijomial

Silkysausage wrote: »

I'm developing new gains, very slight but still there whilst on a deficit. How long should I go until I need to lean bulk? Female, lifting 4 days a week, 117pounds, 5 foot 3

@Silkysausage
Maybe never.
Why do you think you will want to bulk? Do you have particularly advanced body composition or strength goals?

You might like this perspective...
https://bretcontreras.com/to-bulk-and-cut-or-not/

TheHobbit2017

I’ve had an interesting few months. I’ve followed a decent diet; decent food and plenty of calories. I’ve followed a strength training routine and for around about the last month chucked some running into the mix. Over the last 6 months my weight hasn’t moved much at all but my god the inches have fallen. I’m 5 foot and 162 pounds so definately plenty to loose but I’m guessing I must have gained a little muscle while losing some fat.

Silkysausage

sijomial wrote: »

Silkysausage wrote: »

I'm developing new gains, very slight but still there whilst on a deficit. How long should I go until I need to lean bulk? Female, lifting 4 days a week, 117pounds, 5 foot 3

@Silkysausage
Maybe never.
Why do you think you will want to bulk? Do you have particularly advanced body composition or strength goals?

You might like this perspective...
https://bretcontreras.com/to-bulk-and-cut-or-not/

Amazing article, thank you. I suppose I have read far too much in a bid to do my best but got carried away with it all.

I thought that bulking and cutting was what everyone did who were lifting, not giving it a second thought as to why.

I'm going to eat well, keep lifting and progressing and enjoy the rewards!

mmapags

Silkysausage wrote: »

sijomial wrote: »

Silkysausage wrote: »

I'm developing new gains, very slight but still there whilst on a deficit. How long should I go until I need to lean bulk? Female, lifting 4 days a week, 117pounds, 5 foot 3

@Silkysausage
Maybe never.
Why do you think you will want to bulk? Do you have particularly advanced body composition or strength goals?

You might like this perspective...
https://bretcontreras.com/to-bulk-and-cut-or-not/

Amazing article, thank you. I suppose I have read far too much in a bid to do my best but got carried away with it all.

I thought that bulking and cutting was what everyone did who were lifting, not giving it a second thought as to why.

I'm going to eat well, keep lifting and progressing and enjoy the rewards!

Sounds like a great plan. I am in slight deficit and am getting some slight gains as I slowly lose body fat. My body shape is coming along fine and I don't think I'll ever bulk because I'm fairly happy with how I'm looking. Once I drop another 12 to 15 lbs, I'll assess whether I like the way I look or will cut a little more.

Adequate protein to minimize muscle loss is the key. (along with training of course)

sgt1372

My 18 month weight loss and maintenance effort has come to an close and I thought I'd post the results here and in the "Ready to Recomp" thread in that I started over a year ago in the "Maintaining Weight" SubForum.

My starting weight in May 2016 was 196# w/an estimated 25% BF (no baseline measurement); 147# LBM & 49# BF.

My weight in Nov 2016 at the start of the maintenance period was 160# w/BF at 16% as measured by hydro; 134# LBM & 26# BF.

My weight is at the end of Nov 2017 was 158#, where it has been +/-3# over the past 12 months w/BF at 10% as measured by hydro; 142# LBM & 16# BF.

I ate at a deficit for the 1st 6 months and at maintenance for the following 12 months. During the entire 18 month period, I also lifted heavy and exercised regularly. My strength increased substantially and my lifts (as compared w/other men my age & wt) are rated at the advanced (95%) and elite (99%) levels based on the Strength Level database.

During the initial 6 month weight loss & deficit diet period, my LBM decreased by 13# (9%) and my BF decreased by 23# (47%) resulting in the 36# (18%) weight loss overall from 196# to 160#.

During the 12 month maintenance period, I was able to increase my LBM by 8# (6%) while also reducing my BF by another 10# (38%) for a net loss in weight of 2# (1%) from 160# to 158#.

What this data says is that I was NOT able to increase LBM while on a deficit diet BUT that I was able to increase LBM while continuing to lose BF in the process (aka recomp) to a modest degree while eating at maintenance. So, at least for me, it was not possible to "gain muscle in a deficit" but was possible while in maintenance.

I am quite happy w/what I consider the final result at 158# & 10% BF and consider my efforts over the past 18 months to have been a resounding success.

All I have to do now is just continue to maintain it.

edickson76

Thanks for sharing the data. And congrats! I agree that is a resounding success!