Gaining muscle in a deficit?
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My 18 month weight loss and maintenance effort has come to an close and I thought I'd post the results here and in the "Ready to Recomp" thread in that I started over a year ago in the "Maintaining Weight" SubForum.
My starting weight in May 2016 was 196# w/an estimated 25% BF (no baseline measurement); 147# LBM & 49# BF.
My weight in Nov 2016 at the start of the maintenance period was 160# w/BF at 16% as measured by hydro; 134# LBM & 26# BF.
My weight is at the end of Nov 2017 was 158#, where it has been +/-3# over the past 12 months w/BF at 10% as measured by hydro; 142# LBM & 16# BF.
I ate at a deficit for the 1st 6 months and at maintenance for the following 12 months. During the entire 18 month period, I also lifted heavy and exercised regularly. My strength increased substantially and my lifts (as compared w/other men my age & wt) are rated at the advanced (95%) and elite (99%) levels based on the Strength Level database.
During the initial 6 month weight loss & deficit diet period, my LBM decreased by 13# (9%) and my BF decreased by 23# (47%) resulting in the 36# (18%) weight loss overall from 196# to 160#.
During the 12 month maintenance period, I was able to increase my LBM by 8# (6%) while also reducing my BF by another 10# (38%) for a net loss in weight of 2# (1%) from 160# to 158#.
What this data says is that I was NOT able to increase LBM while on a deficit diet BUT that I was able to increase LBM while continuing to lose BF in the process (aka recomp) to a modest degree while eating at maintenance. So, at least for me, it was not possible to "gain muscle in a deficit" but was possible while in maintenance.
I am quite happy w/what I consider the final result at 158# & 10% BF and consider my efforts over the past 18 months to have been a resounding success.
All I have to do now is just continue to maintain it.
WOW! Awesome job! If I might ask, what are your lifting numbers (Bench, Dead, Squat, OHP, Row)? It sounds like you really nailed this.....awesome job (again)!1 -
LiftHeavyThings27105 wrote: »WOW! Awesome job! If I might ask, what are your lifting numbers (Bench, Dead, Squat, OHP, Row)? It sounds like you really nailed this.....awesome job (again)!
Thanks but to avoid hijacking this thread, I'll post an answer to your questions in my "Ready to Recomp" thread here: http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10462715/ready-to-recomp#latest
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LiftHeavyThings27105 wrote: »WOW! Awesome job! If I might ask, what are your lifting numbers (Bench, Dead, Squat, OHP, Row)? It sounds like you really nailed this.....awesome job (again)!
Thanks but to avoid hijacking this thread, I'll post an answer to your questions in my "Ready to Recomp" thread here: http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10462715/ready-to-recomp#latest
Great idea. Was not my intention to hijack this thread with that question.....taking a spin to the other thread.0 -
Going to bump this because apparently, this is what everyone wants.6
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Ok, please be patient with me because this might be dumb. I'm 5'8" and currently around 185. I want to lose body fat and lose about 35ish pounds. I've been doing to weight machine express circuit at the gym for about a year, so I think that means I'm still a beginner, although I put push myself with as heavy as I can go. I've been netting about 1400-1500 calories a day, meaning I should be losing about a pound a week. Does this mean that I'm doing a Slow Cut? Does that mean I should be gaining muscle and losing fat? I'm definitely gaining muscle...not sure about the fat part.0
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Bluesmoothie71 wrote: »Ok, please be patient with me because this might be dumb. I'm 5'8" and currently around 185. I want to lose body fat and lose about 35ish pounds. I've been doing to weight machine express circuit at the gym for about a year, so I think that means I'm still a beginner, although I put push myself with as heavy as I can go. I've been netting about 1400-1500 calories a day, meaning I should be losing about a pound a week. Does this mean that I'm doing a Slow Cut? Does that mean I should be gaining muscle and losing fat? I'm definitely gaining muscle...not sure about the fat part.
So your muscles are likely already tapped out if you were indeed pushing them close to the start of that year.
Body feels no need to build more until existing is pushed to the limit. Especially not in a deficit.
The ability to do that while in a deficit is not only iffy, to perhaps very slowly if starting out - which you aren't.
You can also keep gaining strength for a decent time from existing muscles, besides form improvements allowing weight lifted to increase.
Fat falling away showing more muscle can also appear to be more muscle, though it's not.
Slow cut and potential for new muscle while losing fat depends on how much fat you have (or weight) until a healthy amount.
Closer to where body is happy with it - the harder that is to accomplish.
Plenty to lose - easier to accomplish.
Hence the idea when close to happy - just recomp and make it not as slow.
Measurements will show if fat is being lost. If down close to healthy weight, most lose last in belly, so that may be it for you to really see.1 -
Bluesmoothie71 wrote: »Ok, please be patient with me because this might be dumb. I'm 5'8" and currently around 185. I want to lose body fat and lose about 35ish pounds. I've been doing to weight machine express circuit at the gym for about a year, so I think that means I'm still a beginner, although I put push myself with as heavy as I can go. I've been netting about 1400-1500 calories a day, meaning I should be losing about a pound a week. Does this mean that I'm doing a Slow Cut? Does that mean I should be gaining muscle and losing fat? I'm definitely gaining muscle...not sure about the fat part.
Too many issues raised and unaddressed to given a meaningful answer to this question but here are a few observations:
1) You say you are currently 5'8" and 185# and are eating only 1400-1500 cals/day net. If so, this would NOT be a slow cut, it would be a very aggressive deficit. FWIW, I am 5'8" and was 192# at the start of my weight loss effort and I was eating 1500-1600 cal/day for the 1st 5 months and lost 40# (about 2#/week, which is a very aggressive rate of loss) at that rate.
If you are not losing the same amount of weight doing about the same, you probably are NOT counting your CICO correctly.
2) You say you have been doing an "express circuit" for exercise for about a year but you do not say exactly what lifts you are doing and how much weight you are lifting. Nonetheless, you are wondering if you should be gaining muscle and losing fat.
Without knowing exactly what you are doing, if you are actually eating at a deficit (which is sounds like you are NOT doing), you should lose weight (including fat) AND, if you are lifting/exercising sufficiently, you should be able to maintain "some" (but are unlikely to gain much, if any) lean body mass in the process.
That's about all that can be said based on the info provided.
FYI, I am currently 156# @10% BF (down from 192# @ 20+% BF) which is the result of over 18 months of diet control and hard work. After the initial weight loss in the 1st 6 months, I maintained at 158# (+/- 3#) on about 1800 cals/day for the next 12 months but have recently dropped in the past 2 months to 156# as a result of increased exercise (primarily due to now rowing 10k meters/day). My current daily cal limit is only 1650 cals/net due to my lower weight but I may need to increase my cals back to 1800 if my weight continues to drop.
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Bumping this because that table at the beginning is awesome.3
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hobbitses333 wrote: »Yes the table was very interesting...this is what I have been dealing with...losing ever so slowly with muscle gains while in a slight weekly deficit. With people telling me no, it is not possible.
Nice to see someone agree I am not crazy.
Unfortunately, people think in black and white terms and nutrition is rarely that.4 -
eh time for a bump, super useful thread!1
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Davidsdottir wrote: »Since this is apparently NOT a thing...
I was discussing lean mass gains in a deficit with a DEXA scan dude.
With her permission he shared the 3.3 month results of a 43yo female client of his.
Mass: -12.1lbs (177 -> 164.9)
Fat: -21.5lbs
Lean: +9.3lbs
% Fat: -9.7% (45.3% -> 35.6%)
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B5ivy2PKgcqcUFRJbHJ6UWZKXzZJelVMYkpPcUc4a0RFalQ4/view
Sign me up for gaining almost 10 lbs LBM in less than 4 months! LOL
Wow. Impressive! So it is possible!!0 -
TallGent66 wrote: »Davidsdottir wrote: »Since this is apparently NOT a thing...
I was discussing lean mass gains in a deficit with a DEXA scan dude.
With her permission he shared the 3.3 month results of a 43yo female client of his.
Mass: -12.1lbs (177 -> 164.9)
Fat: -21.5lbs
Lean: +9.3lbs
% Fat: -9.7% (45.3% -> 35.6%)
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B5ivy2PKgcqcUFRJbHJ6UWZKXzZJelVMYkpPcUc4a0RFalQ4/view
Sign me up for gaining almost 10 lbs LBM in less than 4 months! LOL
Wow. Impressive! So it is possible!!
Remember that non-fat mass does not equal muscle. And that exceptional results from lots of training for an untrained in recent memory person do not constitute guarantees. The chart in the OP clearly spells out the various combinations and likelihoods.3 -
TallGent66 wrote: »Davidsdottir wrote: »Since this is apparently NOT a thing...
I was discussing lean mass gains in a deficit with a DEXA scan dude.
With her permission he shared the 3.3 month results of a 43yo female client of his.
Mass: -12.1lbs (177 -> 164.9)
Fat: -21.5lbs
Lean: +9.3lbs
% Fat: -9.7% (45.3% -> 35.6%)
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B5ivy2PKgcqcUFRJbHJ6UWZKXzZJelVMYkpPcUc4a0RFalQ4/view
Sign me up for gaining almost 10 lbs LBM in less than 4 months! LOL
Wow. Impressive! So it is possible!!
Possible? Maybe under certain conditions. Likely? Not very.5 -
TallGent66 wrote: »Davidsdottir wrote: »Since this is apparently NOT a thing...
I was discussing lean mass gains in a deficit with a DEXA scan dude.
With her permission he shared the 3.3 month results of a 43yo female client of his.
Mass: -12.1lbs (177 -> 164.9)
Fat: -21.5lbs
Lean: +9.3lbs
% Fat: -9.7% (45.3% -> 35.6%)
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B5ivy2PKgcqcUFRJbHJ6UWZKXzZJelVMYkpPcUc4a0RFalQ4/view
Sign me up for gaining almost 10 lbs LBM in less than 4 months! LOL
Wow. Impressive! So it is possible!!
Remember that non-fat mass does not equal muscle. And that exceptional results from lots of training for an untrained in recent memory person do not constitute guarantees. The chart in the OP clearly spells out the various combinations and likelihoods.
So what other major items make up non-fat mass - bones?
Yep, not sure where I belong, in between untrained & trained? Formerly athletic, off and on, so know my way around a gym, not an expert.
Online body mass calculators guess my body fat at about 32.3% (but don't account for being 'large-boned', wrist over 7.5".) At this age, I have no desire to do moves like squats. But way more capable than folks on the TLC show. I can be consistent and focused. (I'm about half way to my goal, and after my first week, averaging about 2.7#s per week weight loss.)
And Suggested Protein Goals. All over the map! .7 grams per pound; 1 gram per pound; now this chart suggests 1.5 - 2.5 grams per pound?
If I can retain 70%, 80% or more of my current muscle, that would be terrific. I see there are lots of factors. May look into protein powders. (I sense more muscles... as someone wrote, it could just be fat loss.)
Are taking limited amino acids a poor idea for an amateur, non-body builder?
Thank you.0 -
Water weight is LBM. Because it's not FM.
You start exercising and body increases blood volume to deal with sweating and increased areas to get blood to - you just increased LBM.
Increase muscle glycogen stores with attached water - just increased LBM.
Beginner would be still within 1 year of doing a scheduled lifting program regularly.
For instance I come out of most winters having done 3-4 months of lifting focus.
And then back to endurance cardio.
Every time winter starts - I'm a beginner. Not in developing programs, not in form - but in what that term means as far as lifting goes.
0.9 g/lb/day - or 2g/kg/day - of LBM.
You'll see lots of advice where people fail to add the unit measurement, or got the info and failed to translate.
Or difference between LBM or total weight.
Biggest thing for retaining the muscle you got - reasonable for your body deficit.
If generally healthy, extra amino acids not used for health issues, but for building back up muscle replaced daily - reasonable can mean more deficit than otherwise.
Along with enough protein, and some resistance training.
Shoot, some studies with enough protein and reasonable deficit showed no LBM change even with no resistance training. (then again, they measured for LBM, not muscle)
But use the 3 factors to retain what you got.0 -
Water weight is LBM. Because it's not FM.
You start exercising and body increases blood volume to deal with sweating and increased areas to get blood to - you just increased LBM.
Increase muscle glycogen stores with attached water - just increased LBM. ...
But use the 3 factors to retain what you got.
Thank you for the insight.
Fighting to get to 280, just did light lifting 2 nights, and up 2.5 pounds from yesterday. Only other major change was no 2-hour hike or treading water yesterday. No big salt intake. Ugh.
Your insight adds a new possibility, blood / water retention for the upper body areas worked?
The good thing is I feel better, down over 30 pounds, eating well, upped protein, and learning more about nutrition.0 -
Forgot to add increased water for inflammation for healing the body does after a hard workout.
Wouldn't think it would be from light lifting though, but it could be depending on if it wasn't truly light to some aspect of the body. Like my muscles can be strong and handle a load easily, when the tendons/ligaments aren't there just yet and I'll get swollen around joints. After they catch up that goes away.
The blood increase isn't that huge that fast, but it can get bigger. Can certainly drop it with excessive sweat loss too.
Usually related to cardio and the slow increase of veins to reach more of the muscle being used to deliver the O2 where it's needed.
But I recall one study on seasonal change of just feeling hotter more during the day and body losing more fluid for cooling caused increase too.
You'll likely find the workouts go better, shoot, just from a better perspective of feeling better.
Not many feel inspired to do a good workout when not feeling good.0 -
Forgot to add increased water for inflammation for healing the body does after a hard workout.
Wouldn't think it would be from light lifting though, but it could be depending on if it wasn't truly light to some ...
Not many feel inspired to do a good workout when not feeling good.
Light probably a poor term. Worked smaller (?) Muscle groups.
Shoulder - front raise & lateral raise (dumbells); triceps (only 1 exercise); and obliques.0 -
Tip for those trying to lose water weight. Swim or tread water!
When you get out, you pee like a MoFo.
Apparently in water your blood surrounds vital organs (to retain heat?), and for other reasons? There is a medical term I forgot for the process.
With the combination of blood and water, the body senses too much fluid, and sends a message out to get rid of it!7 -
That'll just come back though as body reaches desired levels.
Also, as you use up muscle-stored carbs that have attached water, body will get rid of that too if already properly hydrated.
So if that was a pretty intense high aerobic workout with high carb usage - you'll have water from that too.
And as your body stores carbs to replace those, back goes the water.4 -
That'll just come back though as body reaches desired levels.
Also, as you use up muscle-stored carbs that have attached water, body will get rid of that too if already properly hydrated.
So if that was a pretty intense high aerobic workout with high carb usage - you'll have water from that too.
And as your body stores carbs to replace those, back goes the water.
No tricks!?
Well, my new home has peaches & figs ripening. A fresh peach off the tree - WOW!0 -
TallGent66 wrote: »Tip for those trying to lose water weight. Swim or tread water!
When you get out, you pee like a MoFo.
Apparently in water your blood surrounds vital organs (to retain heat?), and for other reasons? There is a medical term I forgot for the process.
With the combination of blood and water, the body senses too much fluid, and sends a message out to get rid of it!
What would be the benefit of this? Lost water weight just returns and it doesn't represent fat weight lost. Unless maybe one is trying to make a weight class for some kind of competition, seems like a rather useless exercise.4 -
TallGent66 wrote: »Tip for those trying to lose water weight. Swim or tread water!
When you get out, you pee like a MoFo.
Apparently in water your blood surrounds vital organs (to retain heat?), and for other reasons? There is a medical term I forgot for the process.
With the combination of blood and water, the body senses too much fluid, and sends a message out to get rid of it!
What would be the benefit of this? Lost water weight just returns and it doesn't represent fat weight lost. Unless maybe one is trying to make a weight class for some kind of competition, seems like a rather useless exercise.
Treading water / swimming less taxing than some other activities.0 -
TallGent66 wrote: »TallGent66 wrote: »Tip for those trying to lose water weight. Swim or tread water!
When you get out, you pee like a MoFo.
Apparently in water your blood surrounds vital organs (to retain heat?), and for other reasons? There is a medical term I forgot for the process.
With the combination of blood and water, the body senses too much fluid, and sends a message out to get rid of it!
What would be the benefit of this? Lost water weight just returns and it doesn't represent fat weight lost. Unless maybe one is trying to make a weight class for some kind of competition, seems like a rather useless exercise.
Treading water / swimming less taxing than some other activities.
I didn't mean the treading water/ swimming. I meant the loss of water weight. It has no real meaning for fat loss.1 -
bump!1
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