Gaining muscle in a deficit?

13»

Replies

  • psuLemon
    psuLemon Posts: 38,389 MFP Moderator
    hobbitses333 wrote: »
    Yes the table was very interesting...this is what I have been dealing with...losing ever so slowly with muscle gains while in a slight weekly deficit. With people telling me no, it is not possible.

    Nice to see someone agree I am not crazy.

    Unfortunately, people think in black and white terms and nutrition is rarely that.
  • thanos5
    thanos5 Posts: 513 Member
    eh time for a bump, super useful thread!
  • TallGent66
    TallGent66 Posts: 84 Member
    Davidsdottir wrote: »
    PAV8888 wrote: »
    Since this is apparently NOT a thing...

    I was discussing lean mass gains in a deficit with a DEXA scan dude.

    With her permission he shared the 3.3 month results of a 43yo female client of his.
    Mass: -12.1lbs (177 -> 164.9)
    Fat: -21.5lbs
    Lean: +9.3lbs
    % Fat: -9.7% (45.3% -> 35.6%)

    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B5ivy2PKgcqcUFRJbHJ6UWZKXzZJelVMYkpPcUc4a0RFalQ4/view

    Sign me up for gaining almost 10 lbs LBM in less than 4 months! LOL

    Wow. Impressive! So it is possible!!
  • PAV8888
    PAV8888 Posts: 13,547 Member
    edited July 2019
    TallGent66 wrote: »
    Davidsdottir wrote: »
    PAV8888 wrote: »
    Since this is apparently NOT a thing...

    I was discussing lean mass gains in a deficit with a DEXA scan dude.

    With her permission he shared the 3.3 month results of a 43yo female client of his.
    Mass: -12.1lbs (177 -> 164.9)
    Fat: -21.5lbs
    Lean: +9.3lbs
    % Fat: -9.7% (45.3% -> 35.6%)

    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B5ivy2PKgcqcUFRJbHJ6UWZKXzZJelVMYkpPcUc4a0RFalQ4/view

    Sign me up for gaining almost 10 lbs LBM in less than 4 months! LOL

    Wow. Impressive! So it is possible!!

    Remember that non-fat mass does not equal muscle. And that exceptional results from lots of training for an untrained in recent memory person do not constitute guarantees. The chart in the OP clearly spells out the various combinations and likelihoods.
  • TallGent66
    TallGent66 Posts: 84 Member
    edited July 2019
    PAV8888 wrote: »
    TallGent66 wrote: »
    Davidsdottir wrote: »
    PAV8888 wrote: »
    Since this is apparently NOT a thing...

    I was discussing lean mass gains in a deficit with a DEXA scan dude.

    With her permission he shared the 3.3 month results of a 43yo female client of his.
    Mass: -12.1lbs (177 -> 164.9)
    Fat: -21.5lbs
    Lean: +9.3lbs
    % Fat: -9.7% (45.3% -> 35.6%)

    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B5ivy2PKgcqcUFRJbHJ6UWZKXzZJelVMYkpPcUc4a0RFalQ4/view

    Sign me up for gaining almost 10 lbs LBM in less than 4 months! LOL

    Wow. Impressive! So it is possible!!

    Remember that non-fat mass does not equal muscle. And that exceptional results from lots of training for an untrained in recent memory person do not constitute guarantees. The chart in the OP clearly spells out the various combinations and likelihoods.

    So what other major items make up non-fat mass - bones?

    Yep, not sure where I belong, in between untrained & trained? Formerly athletic, off and on, so know my way around a gym, not an expert.

    Online body mass calculators guess my body fat at about 32.3% (but don't account for being 'large-boned', wrist over 7.5".) At this age, I have no desire to do moves like squats. But way more capable than folks on the TLC show. I can be consistent and focused. (I'm about half way to my goal, and after my first week, averaging about 2.7#s per week weight loss.)

    And Suggested Protein Goals. All over the map! .7 grams per pound; 1 gram per pound; now this chart suggests 1.5 - 2.5 grams per pound?

    If I can retain 70%, 80% or more of my current muscle, that would be terrific. I see there are lots of factors. May look into protein powders. (I sense more muscles... as someone wrote, it could just be fat loss.)

    Are taking limited amino acids a poor idea for an amateur, non-body builder?

    Thank you.
  • heybales
    heybales Posts: 18,842 Member
    Water weight is LBM. Because it's not FM.

    You start exercising and body increases blood volume to deal with sweating and increased areas to get blood to - you just increased LBM.

    Increase muscle glycogen stores with attached water - just increased LBM.

    Beginner would be still within 1 year of doing a scheduled lifting program regularly.

    For instance I come out of most winters having done 3-4 months of lifting focus.

    And then back to endurance cardio.

    Every time winter starts - I'm a beginner. Not in developing programs, not in form - but in what that term means as far as lifting goes.

    0.9 g/lb/day - or 2g/kg/day - of LBM.

    You'll see lots of advice where people fail to add the unit measurement, or got the info and failed to translate.
    Or difference between LBM or total weight.

    Biggest thing for retaining the muscle you got - reasonable for your body deficit.
    If generally healthy, extra amino acids not used for health issues, but for building back up muscle replaced daily - reasonable can mean more deficit than otherwise.

    Along with enough protein, and some resistance training.
    Shoot, some studies with enough protein and reasonable deficit showed no LBM change even with no resistance training. (then again, they measured for LBM, not muscle)

    But use the 3 factors to retain what you got.
  • TallGent66
    TallGent66 Posts: 84 Member
    heybales wrote: »
    Water weight is LBM. Because it's not FM.

    You start exercising and body increases blood volume to deal with sweating and increased areas to get blood to - you just increased LBM.

    Increase muscle glycogen stores with attached water - just increased LBM. ...

    But use the 3 factors to retain what you got.

    Thank you for the insight.

    Fighting to get to 280, just did light lifting 2 nights, and up 2.5 pounds from yesterday. Only other major change was no 2-hour hike or treading water yesterday. No big salt intake. Ugh.

    Your insight adds a new possibility, blood / water retention for the upper body areas worked?

    The good thing is I feel better, down over 30 pounds, eating well, upped protein, and learning more about nutrition.
  • heybales
    heybales Posts: 18,842 Member
    Forgot to add increased water for inflammation for healing the body does after a hard workout.

    Wouldn't think it would be from light lifting though, but it could be depending on if it wasn't truly light to some aspect of the body. Like my muscles can be strong and handle a load easily, when the tendons/ligaments aren't there just yet and I'll get swollen around joints. After they catch up that goes away.

    The blood increase isn't that huge that fast, but it can get bigger. Can certainly drop it with excessive sweat loss too.
    Usually related to cardio and the slow increase of veins to reach more of the muscle being used to deliver the O2 where it's needed.

    But I recall one study on seasonal change of just feeling hotter more during the day and body losing more fluid for cooling caused increase too.

    You'll likely find the workouts go better, shoot, just from a better perspective of feeling better.
    Not many feel inspired to do a good workout when not feeling good.
  • TallGent66
    TallGent66 Posts: 84 Member
    heybales wrote: »
    Forgot to add increased water for inflammation for healing the body does after a hard workout.

    Wouldn't think it would be from light lifting though, but it could be depending on if it wasn't truly light to some ...

    Not many feel inspired to do a good workout when not feeling good.

    Light probably a poor term. Worked smaller (?) Muscle groups.

    Shoulder - front raise & lateral raise (dumbells); triceps (only 1 exercise); and obliques.
  • heybales
    heybales Posts: 18,842 Member
    That'll just come back though as body reaches desired levels.

    Also, as you use up muscle-stored carbs that have attached water, body will get rid of that too if already properly hydrated.
    So if that was a pretty intense high aerobic workout with high carb usage - you'll have water from that too.

    And as your body stores carbs to replace those, back goes the water.
  • TallGent66
    TallGent66 Posts: 84 Member
    heybales wrote: »
    That'll just come back though as body reaches desired levels.

    Also, as you use up muscle-stored carbs that have attached water, body will get rid of that too if already properly hydrated.
    So if that was a pretty intense high aerobic workout with high carb usage - you'll have water from that too.

    And as your body stores carbs to replace those, back goes the water.

    No tricks!?

    Well, my new home has peaches & figs ripening. A fresh peach off the tree - WOW!
  • mmapags
    mmapags Posts: 8,934 Member
    TallGent66 wrote: »
    Tip for those trying to lose water weight. Swim or tread water!

    When you get out, you pee like a MoFo.

    Apparently in water your blood surrounds vital organs (to retain heat?), and for other reasons? There is a medical term I forgot for the process.

    With the combination of blood and water, the body senses too much fluid, and sends a message out to get rid of it!

    What would be the benefit of this? Lost water weight just returns and it doesn't represent fat weight lost. Unless maybe one is trying to make a weight class for some kind of competition, seems like a rather useless exercise.
  • TallGent66
    TallGent66 Posts: 84 Member
    mmapags wrote: »
    TallGent66 wrote: »
    Tip for those trying to lose water weight. Swim or tread water!

    When you get out, you pee like a MoFo.

    Apparently in water your blood surrounds vital organs (to retain heat?), and for other reasons? There is a medical term I forgot for the process.

    With the combination of blood and water, the body senses too much fluid, and sends a message out to get rid of it!

    What would be the benefit of this? Lost water weight just returns and it doesn't represent fat weight lost. Unless maybe one is trying to make a weight class for some kind of competition, seems like a rather useless exercise.

    Treading water / swimming less taxing than some other activities.
  • mmapags
    mmapags Posts: 8,934 Member
    TallGent66 wrote: »
    mmapags wrote: »
    TallGent66 wrote: »
    Tip for those trying to lose water weight. Swim or tread water!

    When you get out, you pee like a MoFo.

    Apparently in water your blood surrounds vital organs (to retain heat?), and for other reasons? There is a medical term I forgot for the process.

    With the combination of blood and water, the body senses too much fluid, and sends a message out to get rid of it!

    What would be the benefit of this? Lost water weight just returns and it doesn't represent fat weight lost. Unless maybe one is trying to make a weight class for some kind of competition, seems like a rather useless exercise.

    Treading water / swimming less taxing than some other activities.

    I didn't mean the treading water/ swimming. I meant the loss of water weight. It has no real meaning for fat loss.
  • happimess01
    happimess01 Posts: 9,071 Member
    bump!

Categories