Salt in food?
Replies
-
Aaron_K123 wrote: »MegaMooseEsq wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »Population recommendations for sodium intake are based on preventing hypertension in the average person.
The idea of ignoring those recommendations because you have no history of high blood pressure is illogical. You may not have issues now; the recommendations are to guide your intake to prevent future problems.
.........
Clinically, many individuals have sodium requirements outside the general recommendation. Heart failure patients, people with kidney disfunction or on certain medications. And so on. The guidelines aren’t for those people.
The guidelines are for regular, average people.
Even if their blood pressure is currently normal.
..........
Remember they are guidelines. Not a prescription.
A high sodium day is not such a big deal. A few years of high sodium diet might be an issue.
High sodium increases blood pressure through recruitment of water into your blood plasma to dilute the sodium. More volume, same space, more pressure. Eat less sodium and drink more water to flush out sodium and your blood pressure goes down. Years of eating high sodium can be erased in a couple of days, there isn't a long term effect that I am aware of (if there is can you please show me evidence this is the case I'd be interested).
Plaque formation within your arteries from poor diet and health restricts the size of your vessels which effectively increases your blood pressure. This is difficult to deal with and is a more permenant effect (or it will take a lot of effort to clear up if it even can be). Once this occurs you will be hypersensitive to sodium since the diameter of your blood vessels is reduced even a "normal" amount of sodium can spike your blood pressure extremely high and a lot of sodium could potentially cause damage to you. That is why for people with high blood pressure from this sort of medical issue should avoid sodium.
If you do not have plaques and restricted blood flow and medical issues related to high blood pressure there is no reason to worry about sodium. In anything but the most extreme cases your body's regulation of sodium will take care of it before it causes a major problem. Is having high blood pressure for any reason year round over and over again good for you? No, it isn't, high blood pressure can increase risk of things like stroke as well as cause damage to your circulation system and heart over time. So yes, if you eat an extreme amount of sodium constantly you should probably cut that out...but that is true of a lot of things we don't have such a focus on.
I think its more likely there is such a focus on sodium because in developed nations, especially the United States, there is a huge issue with cardiovascular disease which can make people hyper sensitive to sodium. This sort of "avoid sodium" advice due to this just got co-opted by the general populace and the medical establishment probably thought "well, not a bad idea if everyone avoids sodium most people get to much anyways". Kind of like how there are some people out there who are legitimately allergic to gluten but now avoiding gluten is made out to be some sort of health thing for anyone. In both cases its an exaggeration of the risks associated with something on the basis of people who do get adverse effects due to medical conditions.
If you had infinite time and infinite will and could pay attention to absolutely everything all at once then sure, track your sodium and keep it in a certain range...would probably have some benefit. But a tiny benefit relative to a lot of other things you could be paying attention to with your health. For most people with limited time and no cardiovascular disease tracking their sodium and worrying about their intake of it is a total waste of time. At worst people lower their sodium to dangerously low levels because they overdo it.
That's fascinating! So assuming I'm following, what you're saying is that the standard US recommendation regarding decreasing sodium consumption isn't about preventing hypertension, but stems from the assumptions that (1) high blood pressure is common in the US due to various diet and lifestyle patterns, (2) a high sodium diet is dangerous for people with high blood pressure, and (3) the standard American diet is high in sodium. And so therefore if one's blood pressure is within the healthy range, there's no reason to be concerned about sodium intake unless you're trying to avoid water weight (which I personally think is asinine, but that's a different topic). Does that sound about right?
Well no I mean if you constantly take in high levels of sodium it will cause hypertension, hypertension is just high blood pressure. I'm just trying to establish there is a big difference between poor eating habits and health leading to plaque formation in your arteries that constricts them and leads to chronic high blood pressure (a disease and a medical condition) and just having temporarily high blood pressure because you ate some salt that can be easily rectified by just drinking more water.
Sorry, I was being imprecise with my language. To rephrase my sum up with a specific example, eating delicious delicious McDonald's french fries will increase my blood pressure temporarily due to high sodium content and probably lead to a pound or two of water weight, but the sodium content of the delicious french fries isn't what I need to worry about if I want to avoid chronic high blood pressure?
As a side note, I actually was flirting with chronic high blood pressure for a year or so, but after losing about 25 pounds and increasing my exercise (but not actually changing my diet much other than quantity) it's back down into the normal range. I'd been sort of vaguely concerned about sodium until my doctor (and common wisdom around these parts) said I didn't need to stress out about it, but I didn't entirely grasp why.0 -
MegaMooseEsq wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »MegaMooseEsq wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »Population recommendations for sodium intake are based on preventing hypertension in the average person.
The idea of ignoring those recommendations because you have no history of high blood pressure is illogical. You may not have issues now; the recommendations are to guide your intake to prevent future problems.
.........
Clinically, many individuals have sodium requirements outside the general recommendation. Heart failure patients, people with kidney disfunction or on certain medications. And so on. The guidelines aren’t for those people.
The guidelines are for regular, average people.
Even if their blood pressure is currently normal.
..........
Remember they are guidelines. Not a prescription.
A high sodium day is not such a big deal. A few years of high sodium diet might be an issue.
High sodium increases blood pressure through recruitment of water into your blood plasma to dilute the sodium. More volume, same space, more pressure. Eat less sodium and drink more water to flush out sodium and your blood pressure goes down. Years of eating high sodium can be erased in a couple of days, there isn't a long term effect that I am aware of (if there is can you please show me evidence this is the case I'd be interested).
Plaque formation within your arteries from poor diet and health restricts the size of your vessels which effectively increases your blood pressure. This is difficult to deal with and is a more permenant effect (or it will take a lot of effort to clear up if it even can be). Once this occurs you will be hypersensitive to sodium since the diameter of your blood vessels is reduced even a "normal" amount of sodium can spike your blood pressure extremely high and a lot of sodium could potentially cause damage to you. That is why for people with high blood pressure from this sort of medical issue should avoid sodium.
If you do not have plaques and restricted blood flow and medical issues related to high blood pressure there is no reason to worry about sodium. In anything but the most extreme cases your body's regulation of sodium will take care of it before it causes a major problem. Is having high blood pressure for any reason year round over and over again good for you? No, it isn't, high blood pressure can increase risk of things like stroke as well as cause damage to your circulation system and heart over time. So yes, if you eat an extreme amount of sodium constantly you should probably cut that out...but that is true of a lot of things we don't have such a focus on.
I think its more likely there is such a focus on sodium because in developed nations, especially the United States, there is a huge issue with cardiovascular disease which can make people hyper sensitive to sodium. This sort of "avoid sodium" advice due to this just got co-opted by the general populace and the medical establishment probably thought "well, not a bad idea if everyone avoids sodium most people get to much anyways". Kind of like how there are some people out there who are legitimately allergic to gluten but now avoiding gluten is made out to be some sort of health thing for anyone. In both cases its an exaggeration of the risks associated with something on the basis of people who do get adverse effects due to medical conditions.
If you had infinite time and infinite will and could pay attention to absolutely everything all at once then sure, track your sodium and keep it in a certain range...would probably have some benefit. But a tiny benefit relative to a lot of other things you could be paying attention to with your health. For most people with limited time and no cardiovascular disease tracking their sodium and worrying about their intake of it is a total waste of time. At worst people lower their sodium to dangerously low levels because they overdo it.
That's fascinating! So assuming I'm following, what you're saying is that the standard US recommendation regarding decreasing sodium consumption isn't about preventing hypertension, but stems from the assumptions that (1) high blood pressure is common in the US due to various diet and lifestyle patterns, (2) a high sodium diet is dangerous for people with high blood pressure, and (3) the standard American diet is high in sodium. And so therefore if one's blood pressure is within the healthy range, there's no reason to be concerned about sodium intake unless you're trying to avoid water weight (which I personally think is asinine, but that's a different topic). Does that sound about right?
Well no I mean if you constantly take in high levels of sodium it will cause hypertension, hypertension is just high blood pressure. I'm just trying to establish there is a big difference between poor eating habits and health leading to plaque formation in your arteries that constricts them and leads to chronic high blood pressure (a disease and a medical condition) and just having temporarily high blood pressure because you ate some salt that can be easily rectified by just drinking more water.
Sorry, I was being imprecise with my language. To rephrase my sum up with a specific example, eating delicious delicious McDonald's french fries will increase my blood pressure temporarily due to high sodium content and probably lead to a pound or two of water weight, but the sodium content of the delicious french fries isn't what I need to worry about if I want to avoid chronic high blood pressure?
As a side note, I actually was flirting with chronic high blood pressure for a year or so, but after losing about 25 pounds and increasing my exercise (but not actually changing my diet much other than quantity) it's back down into the normal range. I'd been sort of vaguely concerned about sodium until my doctor (and common wisdom around these parts) said I didn't need to stress out about it, but I didn't entirely grasp why.
Yeah sodium will not give you chronic high blood pressure, it will temporarily raise your blood pressure from the intake of sodium. I mean you can get "chronic" high blood pressure from sodium if you keep eating tons of sodium but I think it should be clear that there is a distinction between that and an actual cardiovascular disease.
Sodium is something you need to worry about if you already have high blood pressure from other causes (such as obesity or a cardiovascular disease). But if your blood pressure is normal then yeah really not something to worry about. I think if asked straight up the majority of doctors would agree with that. Its just the general advice to the general populace is to avoid sodium because most people take in more sodium than they need to.1 -
Also I don't think people have a good concept of what a milligram actually looks like. 3,100 mg of sodium is what you would get from 120 grains of salt. The people who end up with really high blood pressure from sodium are the people who sprinkle salt on everything believing a little sprinkle isn't that much.
Another way to put it is the soup you ate is 3,100 mg of sodium in one liter of liquid. Which is pretty much exactly what the sodium concentration in human blood is. Healthy human blood has a sodium concentration of 140mM which is 3,220mg per liter. So blood is actually saltier than the soup you ate.
2 -
Aaron_K123 wrote: »Population recommendations for sodium intake are based on preventing hypertension in the average person.
The idea of ignoring those recommendations because you have no history of high blood pressure is illogical. You may not have issues now; the recommendations are to guide your intake to prevent future problems.
.........
Clinically, many individuals have sodium requirements outside the general recommendation. Heart failure patients, people with kidney disfunction or on certain medications. And so on. The guidelines aren’t for those people.
The guidelines are for regular, average people.
Even if their blood pressure is currently normal.
..........
Remember they are guidelines. Not a prescription.
A high sodium day is not such a big deal. A few years of high sodium diet might be an issue.
High sodium increases blood pressure through recruitment of water into your blood plasma to dilute the sodium. More volume, same space, more pressure. Eat less sodium and drink more water to flush out sodium and your blood pressure goes down. Years of eating high sodium can be erased in a couple of days, there isn't a long term effect that I am aware of (if there is can you please show me evidence this is the case I'd be interested).
Plaque formation within your arteries from poor diet and health restricts the size of your vessels which effectively increases your blood pressure. This is difficult to deal with and is a more permenant effect (or it will take a lot of effort to clear up if it even can be). Once this occurs you will be hypersensitive to sodium since the diameter of your blood vessels is reduced even a "normal" amount of sodium can spike your blood pressure extremely high and a lot of sodium could potentially cause damage to you. That is why for people with high blood pressure from this sort of medical issue should avoid sodium.
If you do not have plaques and restricted blood flow and medical issues related to high blood pressure there is no reason to worry about sodium. In anything but the most extreme cases your body's regulation of sodium will take care of it before it causes a major problem. Is having high blood pressure for any reason year round over and over again good for you? No, it isn't, high blood pressure can increase risk of things like stroke as well as cause damage to your circulation system and heart over time. So yes, if you eat an extreme amount of sodium constantly you should probably cut that out...but that is true of a lot of things we don't have such a focus on.
I think its more likely there is such a focus on sodium because in developed nations, especially the United States, there is a huge issue with cardiovascular disease which can make people hyper sensitive to sodium. This sort of "avoid sodium" advice due to this just got co-opted by the general populace and the medical establishment probably thought "well, not a bad idea if everyone avoids sodium most people get to much anyways". Kind of like how there are some people out there who are legitimately allergic to gluten but now avoiding gluten is made out to be some sort of health thing for anyone. In both cases its an exaggeration of the risks associated with something on the basis of people who do get adverse effects due to medical conditions.
If you had infinite time and infinite will and could pay attention to absolutely everything all at once then sure, track your sodium and keep it in a certain range...would probably have some benefit. But a tiny benefit relative to a lot of other things you could be paying attention to with your health. For most people with limited time and no cardiovascular disease tracking their sodium and worrying about their intake of it is a total waste of time. At worst people lower their sodium to dangerously low levels because they overdo it.
Irrespective of atherosclerosis in regard to heart diesease, chronic high blood pressure (years of high sodium can contribute to this, as you know from the grasp of osomatic pressures across semi permiable membrane; water follows salt etc) increases the cardiac afterload - the force which the left ventricle has to contract against to pump blood into to circulatory system.
If the muscle of the ventricle is working harder than it should the muscle will thicken and lead to hypertrophic and cardiomrgaly leading to heart failure of some degree.
There is more to ‘heart disease’ than coronary artery disease.
Although, considering the arteries of the heart, hypertension can not only can damage intima (inner lumen of the artery) and help the processes of plaque formation, but it also causes them to become tortuous/curly and more susceptible to discection with makes it bloody tricky to put a stent in if you do need them.
...............
I’m certainly not advocating a low sodium diet for people on whom it is not clinically indicated.
However, eating a diet high in sodium as a general lifestyle is contradictory to guidelines that are there for pullblic health, general polulation prevention.
You’ll note the advice is reduce sodium; don’t have ongoing intake of high sodium ... not never have any salt on or in anything ever again.
You theorised that high prevelance in developed nations makes people ‘hypersensitive’ to sodium.
That’s basically backwards interprets of the fact that an excessively high sodium western diet has contributed to such wide spread problem with cardiovascular disease.
................
On lowering your sodium to dangerous levels - some people of course should not embark on a low sodium diet (I’m one of these people, hyponatremia due to an interaction with a medication low intake is a possibility for issues) ... these people generally have a medical diagnosis and specific instructions about sodium intake - but for the most part, in most people who end up with acute hyponatremic is not due to low oral salt intake, rather overhydration or sudden fluid shift. The measure of sodium in your blood serum is a water/solute ratio and not directly related to oral salt intake.
Guzzling excessive water over a short time (particularly on the presence of some drugs; extasy is a huge culprit) is more likely to cause hyponatremia (low blood sodium) than avoiding dietary salt. Generally then, there are more solutes (due to the dilution in the blood stream) that the water migrated across the semipermeable membrane of the capillaries in the brain, causing cerebral oedema, increased intercranial pressures, seizure, coma, death ...
although that’s probably more directly relevant to a ‘should I drink a squillion litres of water per day’ thread.
...........
Reduced - not eliminated - dietary recommendations for sodium are about prevention and harm minimisation not treatment.
2 -
Aaron_K123 wrote: »Population recommendations for sodium intake are based on preventing hypertension in the average person.
The idea of ignoring those recommendations because you have no history of high blood pressure is illogical. You may not have issues now; the recommendations are to guide your intake to prevent future problems.
.........
Clinically, many individuals have sodium requirements outside the general recommendation. Heart failure patients, people with kidney disfunction or on certain medications. And so on. The guidelines aren’t for those people.
The guidelines are for regular, average people.
Even if their blood pressure is currently normal.
..........
Remember they are guidelines. Not a prescription.
A high sodium day is not such a big deal. A few years of high sodium diet might be an issue.
High sodium increases blood pressure through recruitment of water into your blood plasma to dilute the sodium. More volume, same space, more pressure. Eat less sodium and drink more water to flush out sodium and your blood pressure goes down. Years of eating high sodium can be erased in a couple of days, there isn't a long term effect that I am aware of (if there is can you please show me evidence this is the case I'd be interested).
Plaque formation within your arteries from poor diet and health restricts the size of your vessels which effectively increases your blood pressure. This is difficult to deal with and is a more permenant effect (or it will take a lot of effort to clear up if it even can be). Once this occurs you will be hypersensitive to sodium since the diameter of your blood vessels is reduced even a "normal" amount of sodium can spike your blood pressure extremely high and a lot of sodium could potentially cause damage to you. That is why for people with high blood pressure from this sort of medical issue should avoid sodium.
If you do not have plaques and restricted blood flow and medical issues related to high blood pressure there is no reason to worry about sodium. In anything but the most extreme cases your body's regulation of sodium will take care of it before it causes a major problem. Is having high blood pressure for any reason year round over and over again good for you? No, it isn't, high blood pressure can increase risk of things like stroke as well as cause damage to your circulation system and heart over time. So yes, if you eat an extreme amount of sodium constantly you should probably cut that out...but that is true of a lot of things we don't have such a focus on.
I think its more likely there is such a focus on sodium because in developed nations, especially the United States, there is a huge issue with cardiovascular disease which can make people hyper sensitive to sodium. This sort of "avoid sodium" advice due to this just got co-opted by the general populace and the medical establishment probably thought "well, not a bad idea if everyone avoids sodium most people get to much anyways". Kind of like how there are some people out there who are legitimately allergic to gluten but now avoiding gluten is made out to be some sort of health thing for anyone. In both cases its an exaggeration of the risks associated with something on the basis of people who do get adverse effects due to medical conditions.
If you had infinite time and infinite will and could pay attention to absolutely everything all at once then sure, track your sodium and keep it in a certain range...would probably have some benefit. But a tiny benefit relative to a lot of other things you could be paying attention to with your health. For most people with limited time and no cardiovascular disease tracking their sodium and worrying about their intake of it is a total waste of time. At worst people lower their sodium to dangerously low levels because they overdo it.
Irrespective of atherosclerosis in regard to heart diesease, chronic high blood pressure (years of high sodium can contribute to this, as you know from the grasp of osomatic pressures across semi permiable membrane; water follows salt etc) increases the cardiac afterload - the force which the left ventricle has to contract against to pump blood into to circulatory system.
If the muscle of the ventricle is working harder than it should the muscle will thicken and lead to hypertrophic and cardiomrgaly leading to heart failure of some degree.
There is more to ‘heart disease’ than coronary artery disease.
Although, considering the arteries of the heart, hypertension can not only can damage intima (inner lumen of the artery) and help the processes of plaque formation, but it also causes them to become tortuous/curly and more susceptible to discection with makes it bloody tricky to put a stent in if you do need them.
...............
I’m certainly not advocating a low sodium diet for people on whom it is not clinically indicated.
However, eating a diet high in sodium as a general lifestyle is contradictory to guidelines that are there for pullblic health, general polulation prevention.
You’ll note the advice is reduce sodium; don’t have ongoing intake of high sodium ... not never have any salt on or in anything ever again.
You theorised that high prevelance in developed nations makes people ‘hypersensitive’ to sodium.
That’s basically backwards interprets of the fact that an excessively high sodium western diet has contributed to such wide spread problem with cardiovascular disease.
................
On lowering your sodium to dangerous levels - some people of course should not embark on a low sodium diet (I’m one of these people, hyponatremia due to an interaction with a medication low intake is a possibility for issues) ... these people generally have a medical diagnosis and specific instructions about sodium intake - but for the most part, in most people who end up with acute hyponatremic is not due to low oral salt intake, rather overhydration or sudden fluid shift. The measure of sodium in your blood serum is a water/solute ratio and not directly related to oral salt intake.
Guzzling excessive water over a short time (particularly on the presence of some drugs; extasy is a huge culprit) is more likely to cause hyponatremia (low blood sodium) than avoiding dietary salt. Generally then, there are more solutes (due to the dilution in the blood stream) that the water migrated across the semipermeable membrane of the capillaries in the brain, causing cerebral oedema, increased intercranial pressures, seizure, coma, death ...
although that’s probably more directly relevant to a ‘should I drink a squillion litres of water per day’ thread.
...........
Reduced - not eliminated - dietary recommendations for sodium are about prevention and harm minimisation not treatment.
Yeah I think all of that is correct I don't disagree with you. I just feel that the way sodium is presented to the public people come away with the impression that sodium is "bad" and something to be avoided whenever possible. I'm just trying to counter act that a bit and at least provide info relating to what sodium actually does and why it isn't "bad".
I do agree though that if you ate high sodium all the time so you were in a constant state of high blood pressure that just being in that state long term could cause irreparable damage or sudden and catastrophic events.
What I was saying is that you should only endevour to lower your sodium if you have high blood pressure. Obviously someone who was eating so much sodium as to have high blood pressure should cut back on sodium. If you don't have high blood pressure you don't have to worry about it.
The other point I was making is that if someone with buildup of plaques in their arteries from years of overeating stopped overeating they would still have those plaques and their blood pressure would remain high for a quite a while. If someone has high blood pressure from sodium intake alone they can have low blood pressure practically the next day if they just cut back on sodium and drink a lot of water. So I don't think it is in the same class of "dire consequences" as forms of cardiovascular disease are.
If a person suffered from chronic high blood pressure for whatever reason, be it cardiovascular disease or just high sodium intake, I would advise them to watch their sodium intake.
It is this public misunderstanding of sodium that would get a person who doesn't have high blood pressure to freak out that they just ate one meal of 3,100 mg of sodium on one day. It underlines that the current way sodium is being talked about is fear mongering to a point is causing overreactions. People act like its toxic and that isn't coming out of nowhere.2 -
^^ I see what you are saying, but the OP came on here and at least asked for advice about it. Obviously if they are on MFP and tracking everything they eat they are going to be conscious of what they are eating. I don't think it's a big deal that he/she was concerned. And now, after posting, realizes that it is probably not a problem since s/he doesn't have high blood pressure and it was just an anomaly in his/her diet anyway.
BUT, as far as the general public in the USA is concerned, the many people are completely clueless as to the sodium content or really what is in their food. I know that before starting MFP I had a vague idea about my food, and I generally ate healthy (with some rough spots) and have also been vegan and vegetarian. Yet I did not know what I know now and my health and weight suffered for it. I don't think it is such a problem that people in the USA are being advised to cut back on sodium--there is an obesity epidemic and just more awareness would help some people. Most people ignore the advice (whether to eat less, don't abuse salt, etc.) otherwise we wouldn't have so many overweight people.1 -
lucerorojo wrote: »^^ I see what you are saying, but the OP came on here and at least asked for advice about it. Obviously if they are on MFP and tracking everything they eat they are going to be conscious of what they are eating. I don't think it's a big deal that he/she was concerned. And now, after posting, realizes that it is probably not a problem since s/he doesn't have high blood pressure and it was just an anomaly in his/her diet anyway.
BUT, as far as the general public in the USA is concerned, the many people are completely clueless as to the sodium content or really what is in their food. I know that before starting MFP I had a vague idea about my food, and I generally ate healthy (with some rough spots) and have also been vegan and vegetarian. Yet I did not know what I know now and my health and weight suffered for it. I don't think it is such a problem that people in the USA are being advised to cut back on sodium--there is an obesity epidemic and just more awareness would help some people. Most people ignore the advice (whether to eat less, don't abuse salt, etc.) otherwise we wouldn't have so many overweight people.
Don't have a problem with health administrators suggesting things to do to improve your health, would just like it to be accompanied by accurate information rather than fear tactics or vagueness. The majority of people in the US would benefit from cutting back their sodium intake, I'd just prefer if they knew why.2
This discussion has been closed.
Categories
- All Categories
- 1.4M Health, Wellness and Goals
- 394K Introduce Yourself
- 43.9K Getting Started
- 260.3K Health and Weight Loss
- 176K Food and Nutrition
- 47.5K Recipes
- 232.6K Fitness and Exercise
- 430 Sleep, Mindfulness and Overall Wellness
- 6.5K Goal: Maintaining Weight
- 8.6K Goal: Gaining Weight and Body Building
- 153.1K Motivation and Support
- 8.1K Challenges
- 1.3K Debate Club
- 96.4K Chit-Chat
- 2.5K Fun and Games
- 3.9K MyFitnessPal Information
- 15 News and Announcements
- 1.2K Feature Suggestions and Ideas
- 2.7K MyFitnessPal Tech Support Questions