Do you take calcium and vitamin D to protect your bones?

ROBOTFOOD

just whole milk and chocolate milk for me

Unknown

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lemurcat12

Do you have a reason to think bone density is an issue? Have you had it checked, if you are concerned?

(Based on examine.com, I think K2 is looking like a pretty positive, no real downside addition, but I still have that knee jerk feeling that taking a bunch of supplements is not great. I don't take calcium and won't, but K2 maybe, even though I know my bone density is good so I don't seem to have an issue getting it sufficiently with diet.)

wizzybeth

lemurcat12 wrote: »

Here's something on K2: https://chrismasterjohnphd.com/2016/12/09/the-ultimate-vitamin-k2-resource/

I'd want to do more research, but it looks like potentially something for vegans in particular to make sure they are getting enough of, especially, as most of the sources (other than natto) are animal products (including cheese). I probably will research it, since I've been reducing animal products quite a bit.

My concern is that that guy uses Mercola as a source for one of his links of information

TonyB0588

asviles wrote: »

Just eat like your mamma kept tellin' you to eat. Drink your milk and eat your greens...

That's the problem. So few of us eat like our mama's anymore.

lemurcat12

wizzybeth wrote: »

lemurcat12 wrote: »

Here's something on K2: https://chrismasterjohnphd.com/2016/12/09/the-ultimate-vitamin-k2-resource/

I'd want to do more research, but it looks like potentially something for vegans in particular to make sure they are getting enough of, especially, as most of the sources (other than natto) are animal products (including cheese). I probably will research it, since I've been reducing animal products quite a bit.

My concern is that that guy uses Mercola as a source for one of his links of information

Yeah, that's bad. Examine.com seems to agree about the benefits, though: https://examine.com/supplements/vitamin-k/

tomteboda

lemurcat12 wrote: »

My own woo-ish view, for what it's worth, is that it's not ideal to rely too much on supplements but there's generally no harm from including certain of them (I don't take a multi, but that, or of course B12 for vegans, D3, as mentioned above, fish oil or algae DHA, anything based on a deficiency).

The reason I tend to be skeptical of relying on supplements, though (or saying that you need to take them, again with limited exceptions), is that I think we've only identified the nutrients in foods to a limited extent, including the exact effect of specific identified vitamins, and that it's therefore probably better to rely on a diet that includes a broad range of nutrient dense foods and not to limit the diet too much when it comes to such foods (or to think you can just get everything from supplementing in some way, as with multis instead of vegetables or those greens powders or the like -- AND, although I get it's not the totally the same, it's why I am skeptical about the idea of consuming juices in lieu of whole fruit and veg IF one has a choice, because we do know that fiber matters for the gut biome). For ethical considerations (like veganism), sure, especially since we have evidence of many very healthful diets that contain limited animal products (although not none), but that's also why I'm not convinced we need to be adding cheese (or even natto) or worrying about supplementing K2 (although like I said I'll look into it). It's also why I think it makes sense to be skeptical of other diets that greatly limit foods that have been commonplace in the human diet for a long time (paleo, especially the restriction on legumes; keto and the limit on many whole food sources of starch and sugar). (It's also why I think the longstanding use of soy in various Asian cuisines is sufficient reason to be skeptical of the soy fear-mongering.)

But like I said, this is just me, and related to my own somewhat woo-ish bias.

I don't think its woo, actually - I believe that our bodies are pretty incredible and evolution has equipped us to survive and even thrive with a wide variety of food sources. It's one of the remarkable things that's led to the success of homo sapiens.

AnnPT77

lemurcat12 wrote: »

(good stuff snipped out by reply-er)

The reason I tend to be skeptical of relying on supplements, though (or saying that you need to take them, again with limited exceptions), is that I think we've only identified the nutrients in foods to a limited extent, including the exact effect of specific identified vitamins, and that it's therefore probably better to rely on a diet that includes a broad range of nutrient dense foods and not to limit the diet too much when it comes to such foods (or to think you can just get everything from supplementing in some way, as with multis instead of vegetables or those greens powders or the like . . . .

(more goodness snipped)

I couldn't agree more. Quite a few vitamins and other micronutrients have been "discovered" and gotten RDAs in my lifetime. They were in evolution-tested real foods all the time. IMO, the basis of good nutrition is eating a wide variety of foods humans have consumed for centuries or millennia, paying attention to the best current nutritional science for guidance on proportions.

That said, I do supplement D and calcium, because my osteoporosis specialist told me to, while taking into account my eating and exercise patterns (which include lots of dairy and seasonal sunshine).

I have osteopenia. I think one of my cancer drugs may have caused it, because there isn't consistent family history, I didn't have it post-menopausally/post-chemotherapy before that drug, and fat, active people aren't supposed to get it.

I took bisphosphonates for 4 years, improved but wasn't "cured". My wish to d/c the drug was supported by the specialist, but I was to keep up the supplements. And I will, until the specialist says otherwise, or I find very, very strong evidence that I should ignore that advice. If not for that (or equivalent medical directive), I wouldn't take those.

The only supps I take on my own advice are a half-dose of vegetarian multi (for insurance on stuff like B12), and an algae DHA (analogous to fish oil, from plant sources).

sos2lily

I take vitamin D. That gets the calcium from digestive system into the blood. However, I've learned that one must also take Vitamin K2 to ensure it gets from the blood to the bones. If not, one can get calcification such as in bone spurs, in arteries, etc.

K1 is for thinning the blood. Some supplements come together D3 and K2.

janejellyroll

sos2lily wrote: »

I take vitamin D. That gets the calcium from digestive system into the blood. However, I've learned that one must also take Vitamin K2 to ensure it gets from the blood to the bones. If not, one can get calcification such as in bone spurs, in arteries, etc.

K1 is for thinning the blood. Some supplements come together D3 and K2.

I think it's more accurate to say there is a theory that K2 plays that role, but it hasn't yet been established. In any case, it isn't necessary to *take* K2 in order for it to work in this way, it's also possible to get it from dietary sources.

AnnPT77

janejellyroll wrote: »

sos2lily wrote: »

I take vitamin D. That gets the calcium from digestive system into the blood. However, I've learned that one must also take Vitamin K2 to ensure it gets from the blood to the bones. If not, one can get calcification such as in bone spurs, in arteries, etc.

K1 is for thinning the blood. Some supplements come together D3 and K2.

I think it's more accurate to say there is a theory that K2 plays that role, but it hasn't yet been established. In any case, it isn't necessary to *take* K2 in order for it to work in this way, it's also possible to get it from dietary sources.

Also, some of the links posted here suggest that happy beneficial gut bugs will cheerfully manufacture K2 for us, if we treat them nicely, too. Another plus for plenty of fermented and fiber-rich foods!

Somehow, human ancestors in traditionally vegan/vegetarian cultures do seem to have lived about as healthily and long as those in meat-centric cultures, all of them entirely without supplements.

Sometimes I read posts from supplement hyper-enthusiasts and wonder how our supplement-deprived ancestors even lived to breed countless generations of us. (I can already hear the "factory farming/GMOs have wiped out foods' nutrition, so we must supplement" argument coming.)

P.S. I'm not saying or intending to imply that the specific person to whom you're responding is a supplements fanatic. I guess I'm just being a grumpy curmudgeon today. . Sorry.

Fuzzipeg

Our supplement deprived ancestors had access to the best foods the world could offer. Soils way back were not depleted by over use and over production. If the soils were tilled they were also fed and cared for or at least they were given time to recover. Aboriginal cultures worshiped the ground and made sure never to over work it. They only took what they needed. Unlike modern societies who use synthetic chemicals which kill the soils as well as doing ourselves no good in either the long or short run.

janejellyroll

AnnPT77 wrote: »

janejellyroll wrote: »

sos2lily wrote: »

I take vitamin D. That gets the calcium from digestive system into the blood. However, I've learned that one must also take Vitamin K2 to ensure it gets from the blood to the bones. If not, one can get calcification such as in bone spurs, in arteries, etc.

K1 is for thinning the blood. Some supplements come together D3 and K2.

I think it's more accurate to say there is a theory that K2 plays that role, but it hasn't yet been established. In any case, it isn't necessary to *take* K2 in order for it to work in this way, it's also possible to get it from dietary sources.

Also, some of the links posted here suggest that happy beneficial gut bugs will cheerfully manufacture K2 for us, if we treat them nicely, too. Another plus for plenty of fermented and fiber-rich foods!

Somehow, human ancestors in traditionally vegan/vegetarian cultures do seem to have lived about as healthily and long as those in meat-centric cultures, all of them entirely without supplements.

Sometimes I read posts from supplement hyper-enthusiasts and wonder how our supplement-deprived ancestors even lived to breed countless generations of us. (I can already hear the "factory farming/GMOs have wiped out foods' nutrition, so we must supplement" argument coming.)

P.S. I'm not saying or intending to imply that the specific person to whom you're responding is a supplements fanatic. I guess I'm just being a grumpy curmudgeon today. . Sorry.

Yes, there is much we still don't know. As a vegan, I'm currently in the "my body is making K2 for me" camp although I am continuing to follow developments in research.

(I'm not anti-supplement and I do supplement a few things -- I just don't want to get into a cycle of over-supplementation or stressing myself out worrying about what I might be missing out on. We need to keep on top of scientific research, we need to be realistic, but we can also combine that with an understanding of the remarkable resilience of our bodies and how humans demonstrably thrive on a wide variety of diets).

AnnPT77

My crystal ball is strong today, it seems.

jjtweb

I take quite a few vitamin supplements but they are based on blood work that shows what I am deficient in. Due to massive weight loss I have to stay on top of it. I would think they help if your deficient if your holding your own wouldn't your body be on it's natural path? I have no idea just curious.

lemurcat12

AnnPT77 wrote: »

My crystal ball is strong today, it seems.

I was impressed! Hope you are writing down your predictions for 2018.

MikePfirrman

I know this seems like an odd source for a great resource on Vitamin K2, but this guy put together a ton of information and charts on K2 and it's sources. I take a great interest in this topic because I'm mostly Vegan and don't eat a lot of animal products.

https://honey-guide.com/2014/03/10/menaquinones-k2-and-phylloquinone-k1-content-of-animal-products-and-fermented-foods/

It's probably the most complete article I've read on specific amounts of K2 from food sources.

MissyCHF

I take a Calcium & Vitamin D tablet twice per day, prescribed by my doctor and buy multi vitamin tablets, I take one per day of these.
I am old but healthy apart from arthritic joints.

2baninja

I take D, because I'm deficient, I don't take calcium, as I produce too much of it, I had to have 1 of my Parathyroid's removed because of it.

FreyasRebirth

I haven't seen what dosages they were using. The old recommendation was only ~400-600 IU. There is a lot of push to significantly raise that number. Specifically, A Statistical Error in the Estimation of the Recommended Dietary Allowance for Vitamin D.

It also estimated that 8895 IU of vitamin D per day may be needed to accomplish that 97.5% of individuals achieve serum 25(OH)D values of 50 nmol/L or more.

The public health and clinical implications of the miscalculated RDA for vitamin D are serious. With the current recommendation of 600 IU, bone health objectives and disease and injury prevention targets will not be met.

Of course taking only 1/20th of what is necessary isn't going to do crap.

Need2Exerc1se

I take both on the advice of my doctor. But I rely more on balanced diet and resistance exercises to protect my bones.