low glycogen stores vs low fitness levels
Replies
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ronocnikral wrote: »It's also important to remember that everything works together as a system. If one takes a journey back to high school biology, the krebs cycle is all you really need to know. "sugar" is used in the anaerobic process, with the by product being ATP and pyruvate/lactate. In the aerobic process, "fat" and pyruvate/lactate combine with O2 to create ATP. The interesting point is the aerobic process uses the by product of the anaerobic process. You can't have all just one type of muscle fiber and get along, you need both but you need to train them separately to develop them correctly. Then on competition day, they come together. Jan olbrecht is the king of this type of training. You can pick up his book, which is highly technical or Maffetone, which is more on my level but covers the same theory. Olbrecht's book goes into excellent detail about training plans and how to affect a desired performance. Lactate.com also has an excellent slide deck which dumbs down Olbrecht's work....which is appreciated by people like me.
Correct. Kind of the reason why I put running at an "anaerobic" level in quotes. The truth is (as you pointed out) your body is always using the aerobic system and anaerobic system together.
Glycolysis breaks down glucose from the blood into 2 pyruvates plus a net 2 ATP in the cytoplasm of the muscle cell. (This is anaerobic because oxygen is not needed).
In the perfect scenario, those 2 pyruvates go into the mitochondria with oxygen to go through the Krebs Cycle followed by the electron transport chain (ETC) to produce ~32 ATP and H20 and C02 as byproducts in which you breath out. (This is the aerobic system because oxygen is needed).
In a not so perfect scenario, the mitochondria is too busy and the pyruvate is instead converted to lactate (a fermentation process). In order for glycolysis to continue running without the cooperation of Krebs & ETC, it has to ferment the pyruvate into lactate in order to restore the NADH necessary. When this happens in enough muscle cells, a lot of people will say that you are running at an "anaerobic" level. But as you can see, the aerobic process is still happening.
So what happens to this lactate? Well it can be channeled to another muscle cell into the mitochondria that is not busy, and with oxygen, will use it in the Krebs Cycle and ETC to produce lots of ATP. Or, it can make it's way into the liver and converted back to glucose.
Again, we are only talking about carb burning here. There's similar processes that I am not capable of describing at this level of detail to burn fatty acids and ketones as substrates.
And different muscle cells could be using all these different substrates all at once. Some burning glucose, others using fatty acids, others having lactate channeled in without glycolysis. Ketones is a little more difficult cause you have to train your body to make and use ketones through a long term low carb diet. Although I was doing a little research on medium chained triglyceride oil (MCT's) and how easily your body can produce ketones from these. I am just stuck if it's possible for a primarily carb burner to consume MCT and expect to use ketones without having to go through a Keto Diet.0 -
Since I brushed up on this and I am entertaining myself by talking about this, I might as well elaborate.So what happens to this lactate? Well it can be channeled to another muscle cell into the mitochondria that is not busy, and with oxygen, will use it in the Krebs Cycle and ETC to produce lots of ATP. Or, it can make it's way into the liver and converted back to glucose.
Now we can open the door to a lot of different discussions. Your body is always producing lactate. In fact, about 1 mmol/L of lactate is always in your blood even if you are sitting around doing nothing. The more activity you do, the higher this becomes. But if the intensity of the activity is low enough, lactate accumulation is leveled off and this does not become a problem. That's because your body has a way to buffer and clear lactate. At a certain point, intensity becomes too much and your body has no way to any longer buffer and clear this lactate. That magic line is what we call the lactate threshold. When you cross this line, that's when we say you are now running at an "anaerobic" level. What it really means, you are running too fast (or performing any activity too intensely) that your lactate accumulation is overcoming your ability to clear it. When that happens, your H+ count is also rising and raising the pH level in your blood and muscles. It's being acidified. This causes fatigue that forces you to stop the activity.
Run just a little bit above your LT, and you can sustain that pace pretty long. Run very fast (almost a sprint) and you will drop in about 2 minutes. If you can run right at your LT, you would be able to sustain that pace for about roughly an hour maximum. Run below your LT and you should be able to sustain that pace much longer than an hour (as long as you have strong enough muscle fibers - which is yet a different way to fatigue and a completely different discussion).
Tempo runs (or lactate threshold runs) (or just threshold runs) is one type of workout you do to train yourself. The idea is that the longer you can train at your LT, the better your body gets at this intensity. Over time, your LT pace will be faster. This translates to running faster for longer periods of time.
There's also what we call lactate clearing workouts. For example, run a mile just a bit faster than your LT pace, followed by a mile just under your LT pace. Repeat back and forth a few times. When running faster than LT, your body is accumulating lots of lactate, when running slower, you are training your body to clearing lactate while on the run at fast paces. You can also do this in half mile intervals or whatever interval you are comfortable at.
Go way above your LT to about 97% of your maximum sprint and run say once around the track (or halfway around). Then walk around the track to catch your breath. Repeat a few times. The idea is to get way above and close to what we call your VO2max. The longer you can get used to running at this level, the faster your raw speed gets. This type of workout requires full intensity of your running muscles. Very good workout. But drains the hell out of you. You won't want to do this too many intervals and you will be very sore the next day. Plus you don't want to do this type of workout too many times. Maybe once a week for a few weeks. Then take a break a few weeks (focus on other types of running workouts). Then do the cycle again.
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So, don't just throw on shoes and go for a run.
Thank you for the detailed information. As someone looking to get into a half I'm very interested in this.1 -
Tacklewasher wrote: »So, don't just throw on shoes and go for a run.
Thank you for the detailed information. As someone looking to get into a half I'm very interested in this.
LOL funny you say this. A lot of people will react to all this talk and state, "why make a big deal of it? It just putting left foot in front of right foot, ect. How hard can it be?" Other's will just get one of those canned plans you find online like Hal Higeons has, or whatever book or magazine article offers up and blindly follows that. Other's like me who want to learn how to run further and faster, we get more scientific and more in depth and want to know why you do certain things. Why do I get tired if I do this? Will research what your body does when you consume a gel while running and what's the science behind that?
It can be however hard or easy you want it to be. But, I believe that the more knowledge you have in something, the better you can train and be better doing that thing. It also helps prevent a lot of mistakes and injuries.3 -
Tacklewasher wrote: »So, don't just throw on shoes and go for a run.
Thank you for the detailed information. As someone looking to get into a half I'm very interested in this.
LOL funny you say this. A lot of people will react to all this talk and state, "why make a big deal of it? It just putting left foot in front of right foot, ect. How hard can it be?" Other's will just get one of those canned plans you find online like Hal Higeons has, or whatever book or magazine article offers up and blindly follows that. Other's like me who want to learn how to run further and faster, we get more scientific and more in depth and want to know why you do certain things. Why do I get tired if I do this? Will research what your body does when you consume a gel while running and what's the science behind that?
It can be however hard or easy you want it to be. But, I believe that the more knowledge you have in something, the better you can train and be better doing that thing. It also helps prevent a lot of mistakes and injuries.
I'm interested in this whole idea of running and being able to carry on a conversation. I can't do that. If I'm running I can't talk. But seeing the "why" of the advice is good for me. I know it will come easier as I get more miles on, and I'm looking to do just that in a controlled way, but understanding why it matters and why I need to slow down sometimes, or do sprints, helps me so I do appreciate your posts.0 -
Tacklewasher wrote: »Tacklewasher wrote: »So, don't just throw on shoes and go for a run.
Thank you for the detailed information. As someone looking to get into a half I'm very interested in this.
LOL funny you say this. A lot of people will react to all this talk and state, "why make a big deal of it? It just putting left foot in front of right foot, ect. How hard can it be?" Other's will just get one of those canned plans you find online like Hal Higeons has, or whatever book or magazine article offers up and blindly follows that. Other's like me who want to learn how to run further and faster, we get more scientific and more in depth and want to know why you do certain things. Why do I get tired if I do this? Will research what your body does when you consume a gel while running and what's the science behind that?
It can be however hard or easy you want it to be. But, I believe that the more knowledge you have in something, the better you can train and be better doing that thing. It also helps prevent a lot of mistakes and injuries.
I'm interested in this whole idea of running and being able to carry on a conversation. I can't do that. If I'm running I can't talk. But seeing the "why" of the advice is good for me. I know it will come easier as I get more miles on, and I'm looking to do just that in a controlled way, but understanding why it matters and why I need to slow down sometimes, or do sprints, helps me so I do appreciate your posts.
I used to have that issue when I started running and found it really hard. Training for a half slowed me down and miraculously made running a 5k distance feel 'easy'.
PS love this thread!
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I love this thread too. That, and the one on heart rates. I seriously wish we could do something other than "star" threads (save them to a folder?).2
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Tacklewasher wrote: »I'm interested in this whole idea of running and being able to carry on a conversation. I can't do that. If I'm running I can't talk. But seeing the "why" of the advice is good for me. I know it will come easier as I get more miles on, and I'm looking to do just that in a controlled way, but understanding why it matters and why I need to slow down sometimes, or do sprints, helps me so I do appreciate your posts.
Just slow it down until your breathing is steady. Then try singing (out loud or not) with your music.
This month I finally get to *consistently* do an hour of tempo-based sprints once/week. I'm so excited. I've been in the base-building, conversational, sub 75% max heart rate, zone for months.0 -
TavistockToad wrote: »I used to have that issue when I started running and found it really hard. Training for a half slowed me down and miraculously made running a 5k distance feel 'easy'.
PS love this thread!
There are the rare days in my down week when I look at my schedule and see a 45 minute run brick...and I'm just, like....thank jesus....
Blink and it's done, kind of.1 -
TavistockToad wrote: »Tacklewasher wrote: »Tacklewasher wrote: »So, don't just throw on shoes and go for a run.
Thank you for the detailed information. As someone looking to get into a half I'm very interested in this.
LOL funny you say this. A lot of people will react to all this talk and state, "why make a big deal of it? It just putting left foot in front of right foot, ect. How hard can it be?" Other's will just get one of those canned plans you find online like Hal Higeons has, or whatever book or magazine article offers up and blindly follows that. Other's like me who want to learn how to run further and faster, we get more scientific and more in depth and want to know why you do certain things. Why do I get tired if I do this? Will research what your body does when you consume a gel while running and what's the science behind that?
It can be however hard or easy you want it to be. But, I believe that the more knowledge you have in something, the better you can train and be better doing that thing. It also helps prevent a lot of mistakes and injuries.
I'm interested in this whole idea of running and being able to carry on a conversation. I can't do that. If I'm running I can't talk. But seeing the "why" of the advice is good for me. I know it will come easier as I get more miles on, and I'm looking to do just that in a controlled way, but understanding why it matters and why I need to slow down sometimes, or do sprints, helps me so I do appreciate your posts.
I used to have that issue when I started running and found it really hard. Training for a half slowed me down and miraculously made running a 5k distance feel 'easy'.
PS love this thread!
So, I should put together a training plan for a half?
:devil:0 -
Though this is a discussion of training and associated conditioning/deconditioning of athletes as we ramp up or reduce our volume, I couldn't help but notice another theme among participants in this thread.
My trainer mentioned recently that during her functional strength training certification, the instructor frequently mentioned the "training build up, overuse injury, rehabilitation" cycle that is so prevalent in distance runners and triathletes. The amount of overhead work required (stretching, foam rolling, yoga, strength work) to keep all the muscle groups functioning and synchronised is often neglected as training time increases. I think at least 4 or 5 posts in this thread noted injuries and rehab efforts underway (me included). For me, staying injury free is probably the most important factor in my race prep efforts and is no small effort at 60 years of age.
You are so right.
I laughed when I read your profile, btw. Last year I joked that every cheer for 2018 would be, "To no injuries!"
.....Naturally I forgot how I stop drinking.
But yeah. You are 1000% right with all the overhead work. I really need to foam roll.....
(forget special needs triathletes who have things like double jointed knees and pull muscles while stretching!
) 0 -
Tacklewasher wrote: »Tacklewasher wrote: »So, don't just throw on shoes and go for a run.
Thank you for the detailed information. As someone looking to get into a half I'm very interested in this.
LOL funny you say this. A lot of people will react to all this talk and state, "why make a big deal of it? It just putting left foot in front of right foot, ect. How hard can it be?" Other's will just get one of those canned plans you find online like Hal Higeons has, or whatever book or magazine article offers up and blindly follows that. Other's like me who want to learn how to run further and faster, we get more scientific and more in depth and want to know why you do certain things. Why do I get tired if I do this? Will research what your body does when you consume a gel while running and what's the science behind that?
It can be however hard or easy you want it to be. But, I believe that the more knowledge you have in something, the better you can train and be better doing that thing. It also helps prevent a lot of mistakes and injuries.
I'm interested in this whole idea of running and being able to carry on a conversation. I can't do that. If I'm running I can't talk. But seeing the "why" of the advice is good for me. I know it will come easier as I get more miles on, and I'm looking to do just that in a controlled way, but understanding why it matters and why I need to slow down sometimes, or do sprints, helps me so I do appreciate your posts.
If you can't run any slower, then walk. There's many structured run/walk programs like C25K, zombie run, Jeff Galloway, Run For God, ect. But it's also easy to try and sing or talk aloud (try to sing your ABC's or recite the Pledge of Allegiance) as you run. If you can't, then slow the pace down (or walk if you have to) in order to get to the point where you can run slow again.
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Tacklewasher wrote: »TavistockToad wrote: »Tacklewasher wrote: »Tacklewasher wrote: »So, don't just throw on shoes and go for a run.
Thank you for the detailed information. As someone looking to get into a half I'm very interested in this.
LOL funny you say this. A lot of people will react to all this talk and state, "why make a big deal of it? It just putting left foot in front of right foot, ect. How hard can it be?" Other's will just get one of those canned plans you find online like Hal Higeons has, or whatever book or magazine article offers up and blindly follows that. Other's like me who want to learn how to run further and faster, we get more scientific and more in depth and want to know why you do certain things. Why do I get tired if I do this? Will research what your body does when you consume a gel while running and what's the science behind that?
It can be however hard or easy you want it to be. But, I believe that the more knowledge you have in something, the better you can train and be better doing that thing. It also helps prevent a lot of mistakes and injuries.
I'm interested in this whole idea of running and being able to carry on a conversation. I can't do that. If I'm running I can't talk. But seeing the "why" of the advice is good for me. I know it will come easier as I get more miles on, and I'm looking to do just that in a controlled way, but understanding why it matters and why I need to slow down sometimes, or do sprints, helps me so I do appreciate your posts.
I used to have that issue when I started running and found it really hard. Training for a half slowed me down and miraculously made running a 5k distance feel 'easy'.
PS love this thread!
So, I should put together a training plan for a half?
:devil:
I actually have a blog about running.
I have one about training plans:
https://therunningstan.blogpost.com/2016/02/my-gripes-on-training-plans.html
I know people that took a canned training plan and adjusted it according to my advise and did very well.
I also have a whole discussion about oxygen that gets really in depth and descriptive with links to videos and other articles:
https://therunningstan.blogpost.com/2016/01/why-is-oxygen-so-important.html0 -
Since I brushed up on this and I am entertaining myself by talking about this, I might as well elaborate.So what happens to this lactate? Well it can be channeled to another muscle cell into the mitochondria that is not busy, and with oxygen, will use it in the Krebs Cycle and ETC to produce lots of ATP. Or, it can make it's way into the liver and converted back to glucose.
Now we can open the door to a lot of different discussions. Your body is always producing lactate. In fact, about 1 mmol/L of lactate is always in your blood even if you are sitting around doing nothing. The more activity you do, the higher this becomes. But if the intensity of the activity is low enough, lactate accumulation is leveled off and this does not become a problem. That's because your body has a way to buffer and clear lactate. At a certain point, intensity becomes too much and your body has no way to any longer buffer and clear this lactate. That magic line is what we call the lactate threshold. When you cross this line, that's when we say you are now running at an "anaerobic" level. What it really means, you are running too fast (or performing any activity too intensely) that your lactate accumulation is overcoming your ability to clear it. When that happens, your H+ count is also rising and raising the pH level in your blood and muscles. It's being acidified. This causes fatigue that forces you to stop the activity.
Run just a little bit above your LT, and you can sustain that pace pretty long. Run very fast (almost a sprint) and you will drop in about 2 minutes. If you can run right at your LT, you would be able to sustain that pace for about roughly an hour maximum. Run below your LT and you should be able to sustain that pace much longer than an hour (as long as you have strong enough muscle fibers - which is yet a different way to fatigue and a completely different discussion).
Tempo runs (or lactate threshold runs) (or just threshold runs) is one type of workout you do to train yourself. The idea is that the longer you can train at your LT, the better your body gets at this intensity. Over time, your LT pace will be faster. This translates to running faster for longer periods of time.
There's also what we call lactate clearing workouts. For example, run a mile just a bit faster than your LT pace, followed by a mile just under your LT pace. Repeat back and forth a few times. When running faster than LT, your body is accumulating lots of lactate, when running slower, you are training your body to clearing lactate while on the run at fast paces. You can also do this in half mile intervals or whatever interval you are comfortable at.
Go way above your LT to about 97% of your maximum sprint and run say once around the track (or halfway around). Then walk around the track to catch your breath. Repeat a few times. The idea is to get way above and close to what we call your VO2max. The longer you can get used to running at this level, the faster your raw speed gets. This type of workout requires full intensity of your running muscles. Very good workout. But drains the hell out of you. You won't want to do this too many intervals and you will be very sore the next day. Plus you don't want to do this type of workout too many times. Maybe once a week for a few weeks. Then take a break a few weeks (focus on other types of running workouts). Then do the cycle again.
There's also the lactate shuttle theory....For those not familiar, lactate is carried through the blood to other parts of the body to be used. E.g. lift arms heavy and your heart uses excess lactate.
I would argue that LT runs aren't really what makes your "Aerobic" pace faster. Or your "race pace." It's the muscle fiber adaptations (capillary growth, mitochondria density/biogensis and thinning of the muscle fiber) that bring more of the muscle over to the "Aerobic" side. An argument can be made for the mechanics, in which Maffetone suggests a run down a slight incline. You'll also become faster within your aerobic HR band as you develop your aerobic system.
My suggestion, and that of the likes of Maffetone and Olbrecht, is to build up the aerobic system and then "sacrifice" some of it the anaerobic side. Many do this for about a month preceding their taper period. Olbrecht has even suggested periodization of aerobic base, then a week or 2 of hitting the anaerobic side and then start the next period doing the aerobic base. Depends on what kind of sport, what the seasons are, when comps are etc. I wouldn't concern myself with VO2max or lactate clearance abilities. But that is just me....0 -
Tacklewasher wrote: »Tacklewasher wrote: »So, don't just throw on shoes and go for a run.
Thank you for the detailed information. As someone looking to get into a half I'm very interested in this.
LOL funny you say this. A lot of people will react to all this talk and state, "why make a big deal of it? It just putting left foot in front of right foot, ect. How hard can it be?" Other's will just get one of those canned plans you find online like Hal Higeons has, or whatever book or magazine article offers up and blindly follows that. Other's like me who want to learn how to run further and faster, we get more scientific and more in depth and want to know why you do certain things. Why do I get tired if I do this? Will research what your body does when you consume a gel while running and what's the science behind that?
It can be however hard or easy you want it to be. But, I believe that the more knowledge you have in something, the better you can train and be better doing that thing. It also helps prevent a lot of mistakes and injuries.
I'm interested in this whole idea of running and being able to carry on a conversation. I can't do that. If I'm running I can't talk. But seeing the "why" of the advice is good for me. I know it will come easier as I get more miles on, and I'm looking to do just that in a controlled way, but understanding why it matters and why I need to slow down sometimes, or do sprints, helps me so I do appreciate your posts.
I'm in the same boat. If I'm running, I ain't talking (at least not in full sentences). If I slow down enough to talk, it becomes some awkward, uncoordinated, clumsy, inefficient (read: higher impact) shuffle. So for me, this is where hiking comes in.
Now, spinning/cycling... as long as I can stay out of the hills, maintaining a conversational effort/HR is easier to do. As a cyclist first and a runner second, this is good news for me.0 -
Tacklewasher wrote: »TavistockToad wrote: »Tacklewasher wrote: »Tacklewasher wrote: »So, don't just throw on shoes and go for a run.
Thank you for the detailed information. As someone looking to get into a half I'm very interested in this.
LOL funny you say this. A lot of people will react to all this talk and state, "why make a big deal of it? It just putting left foot in front of right foot, ect. How hard can it be?" Other's will just get one of those canned plans you find online like Hal Higeons has, or whatever book or magazine article offers up and blindly follows that. Other's like me who want to learn how to run further and faster, we get more scientific and more in depth and want to know why you do certain things. Why do I get tired if I do this? Will research what your body does when you consume a gel while running and what's the science behind that?
It can be however hard or easy you want it to be. But, I believe that the more knowledge you have in something, the better you can train and be better doing that thing. It also helps prevent a lot of mistakes and injuries.
I'm interested in this whole idea of running and being able to carry on a conversation. I can't do that. If I'm running I can't talk. But seeing the "why" of the advice is good for me. I know it will come easier as I get more miles on, and I'm looking to do just that in a controlled way, but understanding why it matters and why I need to slow down sometimes, or do sprints, helps me so I do appreciate your posts.
I used to have that issue when I started running and found it really hard. Training for a half slowed me down and miraculously made running a 5k distance feel 'easy'.
PS love this thread!
So, I should put together a training plan for a half?
:devil:
I actually have a blog about running.
I have one about training plans:
https://therunningstan.blogpost.com/2016/02/my-gripes-on-training-plans.html
I know people that took a canned training plan and adjusted it according to my advise and did very well.
I also have a whole discussion about oxygen that gets really in depth and descriptive with links to videos and other articles:
https://therunningstan.blogpost.com/2016/01/why-is-oxygen-so-important.html
Last link isn't loading, btw.
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ronocnikral wrote: »Since I brushed up on this and I am entertaining myself by talking about this, I might as well elaborate.So what happens to this lactate? Well it can be channeled to another muscle cell into the mitochondria that is not busy, and with oxygen, will use it in the Krebs Cycle and ETC to produce lots of ATP. Or, it can make it's way into the liver and converted back to glucose.
Now we can open the door to a lot of different discussions. Your body is always producing lactate. In fact, about 1 mmol/L of lactate is always in your blood even if you are sitting around doing nothing. The more activity you do, the higher this becomes. But if the intensity of the activity is low enough, lactate accumulation is leveled off and this does not become a problem. That's because your body has a way to buffer and clear lactate. At a certain point, intensity becomes too much and your body has no way to any longer buffer and clear this lactate. That magic line is what we call the lactate threshold. When you cross this line, that's when we say you are now running at an "anaerobic" level. What it really means, you are running too fast (or performing any activity too intensely) that your lactate accumulation is overcoming your ability to clear it. When that happens, your H+ count is also rising and raising the pH level in your blood and muscles. It's being acidified. This causes fatigue that forces you to stop the activity.
Run just a little bit above your LT, and you can sustain that pace pretty long. Run very fast (almost a sprint) and you will drop in about 2 minutes. If you can run right at your LT, you would be able to sustain that pace for about roughly an hour maximum. Run below your LT and you should be able to sustain that pace much longer than an hour (as long as you have strong enough muscle fibers - which is yet a different way to fatigue and a completely different discussion).
Tempo runs (or lactate threshold runs) (or just threshold runs) is one type of workout you do to train yourself. The idea is that the longer you can train at your LT, the better your body gets at this intensity. Over time, your LT pace will be faster. This translates to running faster for longer periods of time.
There's also what we call lactate clearing workouts. For example, run a mile just a bit faster than your LT pace, followed by a mile just under your LT pace. Repeat back and forth a few times. When running faster than LT, your body is accumulating lots of lactate, when running slower, you are training your body to clearing lactate while on the run at fast paces. You can also do this in half mile intervals or whatever interval you are comfortable at.
Go way above your LT to about 97% of your maximum sprint and run say once around the track (or halfway around). Then walk around the track to catch your breath. Repeat a few times. The idea is to get way above and close to what we call your VO2max. The longer you can get used to running at this level, the faster your raw speed gets. This type of workout requires full intensity of your running muscles. Very good workout. But drains the hell out of you. You won't want to do this too many intervals and you will be very sore the next day. Plus you don't want to do this type of workout too many times. Maybe once a week for a few weeks. Then take a break a few weeks (focus on other types of running workouts). Then do the cycle again.
There's also the lactate shuttle theory....For those not familiar, lactate is carried through the blood to other parts of the body to be used. E.g. lift arms heavy and your heart uses excess lactate.
I would argue that LT runs aren't really what makes your "Aerobic" pace faster. Or your "race pace." It's the muscle fiber adaptations (capillary growth, mitochondria density/biogensis and thinning of the muscle fiber) that bring more of the muscle over to the "Aerobic" side. An argument can be made for the mechanics, in which Maffetone suggests a run down a slight incline. You'll also become faster within your aerobic HR band as you develop your aerobic system.
My suggestion, and that of the likes of Maffetone and Olbrecht, is to build up the aerobic system and then "sacrifice" some of it the anaerobic side. Many do this for about a month preceding their taper period. Olbrecht has even suggested periodization of aerobic base, then a week or 2 of hitting the anaerobic side and then start the next period doing the aerobic base. Depends on what kind of sport, what the seasons are, when comps are etc. I wouldn't concern myself with VO2max or lactate clearance abilities. But that is just me....
There's different things you do as workouts. Another person to study is Arthur Lydiard who created the way to endurance base building and using training periods (or what he called periodization) to reach goals. There's a couple books out on his methods. But he started basically the idea of what you are saying.
In periodization, you start out in a metaphase where you concentrate solely on base building (all easy conversational running) to do all that you say above "muscle fiber adaptations (capillary growth, mitochondria density/biogensis and thinning of the muscle fiber)". Then after that phase is over you move into a phase where you introduce other things. His one book talks a lot about hill training and bounding in this phase, but still a lof of easy running. Then as you move closer to your goal race, you are in refining workouts that are specifically designed for your race distance, then a taper, race, recovery phases, then back to endurance base and start all over again.
Another of my favorites is Jack Daniels (the PhD coach, not the whiskey). He has lots of videos on this stuff if you look up runsmartproject in youtube. He's a big advocate of lots of Easy running. But has great insight why you do the other workouts.
There's a book by Matt Fitzgerald called 80/20 Running which tells you that at least 80% of your workouts should be easy.
All of this I am pointing out to you in grave agreement to your statement.
Here's my 2 favorite videos:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=veAQ73OJdwY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uaRYYhweiLQ
And 2 good videos on explaining Tempo or Threshold Training
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dxJVtPT6rHo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1agTi1cAdDU 0 -
Tacklewasher wrote: »So, don't just throw on shoes and go for a run.
Thank you for the detailed information. As someone looking to get into a half I'm very interested in this.
LOL funny you say this. A lot of people will react to all this talk and state, "why make a big deal of it? It just putting left foot in front of right foot, ect. How hard can it be?" Other's will just get one of those canned plans you find online like Hal Higeons has, or whatever book or magazine article offers up and blindly follows that. Other's like me who want to learn how to run further and faster, we get more scientific and more in depth and want to know why you do certain things. Why do I get tired if I do this? Will research what your body does when you consume a gel while running and what's the science behind that?
It can be however hard or easy you want it to be. But, I believe that the more knowledge you have in something, the better you can train and be better doing that thing. It also helps prevent a lot of mistakes and injuries.
Personally, I don't have the time to do most of those boxed programs. Between other obligations and other priorities, it's just ain't happening. I've not had good experiences with coaching for reasons far outside the scope of this thread.
So this thread has given me a lot of perspective on the merits of different training types. I can now better budget my time and program my workouts. So again, thank you.0 -
Thank ya! I'll dig into that baby tomorrow.1 -
Tacklewasher wrote: »Tacklewasher wrote: »So, don't just throw on shoes and go for a run.
Thank you for the detailed information. As someone looking to get into a half I'm very interested in this.
LOL funny you say this. A lot of people will react to all this talk and state, "why make a big deal of it? It just putting left foot in front of right foot, ect. How hard can it be?" Other's will just get one of those canned plans you find online like Hal Higeons has, or whatever book or magazine article offers up and blindly follows that. Other's like me who want to learn how to run further and faster, we get more scientific and more in depth and want to know why you do certain things. Why do I get tired if I do this? Will research what your body does when you consume a gel while running and what's the science behind that?
It can be however hard or easy you want it to be. But, I believe that the more knowledge you have in something, the better you can train and be better doing that thing. It also helps prevent a lot of mistakes and injuries.
I'm interested in this whole idea of running and being able to carry on a conversation. I can't do that. If I'm running I can't talk. But seeing the "why" of the advice is good for me. I know it will come easier as I get more miles on, and I'm looking to do just that in a controlled way, but understanding why it matters and why I need to slow down sometimes, or do sprints, helps me so I do appreciate your posts.
I'm in the same boat. If I'm running, I ain't talking (at least not in full sentences). If I slow down enough to talk, it becomes some awkward, uncoordinated, clumsy, inefficient (read: higher impact) shuffle. So for me, this is where hiking comes in.
I guess this is part of my confusion or issue. I'm trying to get my cadence up to 180 bmp as I'm told that helps prevent over-striding and injury. My normal is 160-165ish. Well, going 180 leaves me out of breath. I'm pushing it past 20 mins on the treadmill (can't wait for the snow to be gone so I can stop on the treadmill), but no way can I talk while doing it. Slowing down seems counter productive to me.
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Oops... try these instead. I mis typed blogspot instead of blogpostTacklewasher wrote: »TavistockToad wrote: »Tacklewasher wrote: »Tacklewasher wrote: »So, don't just throw on shoes and go for a run.
Thank you for the detailed information. As someone looking to get into a half I'm very interested in this.
LOL funny you say this. A lot of people will react to all this talk and state, "why make a big deal of it? It just putting left foot in front of right foot, ect. How hard can it be?" Other's will just get one of those canned plans you find online like Hal Higeons has, or whatever book or magazine article offers up and blindly follows that. Other's like me who want to learn how to run further and faster, we get more scientific and more in depth and want to know why you do certain things. Why do I get tired if I do this? Will research what your body does when you consume a gel while running and what's the science behind that?
It can be however hard or easy you want it to be. But, I believe that the more knowledge you have in something, the better you can train and be better doing that thing. It also helps prevent a lot of mistakes and injuries.
I'm interested in this whole idea of running and being able to carry on a conversation. I can't do that. If I'm running I can't talk. But seeing the "why" of the advice is good for me. I know it will come easier as I get more miles on, and I'm looking to do just that in a controlled way, but understanding why it matters and why I need to slow down sometimes, or do sprints, helps me so I do appreciate your posts.
I used to have that issue when I started running and found it really hard. Training for a half slowed me down and miraculously made running a 5k distance feel 'easy'.
PS love this thread!
So, I should put together a training plan for a half?
:devil:
I actually have a blog about running.
I have one about training plans:
https://therunningstan.blogpost.com/2016/02/my-gripes-on-training-plans.html
I know people that took a canned training plan and adjusted it according to my advise and did very well.
I also have a whole discussion about oxygen that gets really in depth and descriptive with links to videos and other articles:
https://therunningstan.blogpost.com/2016/01/why-is-oxygen-so-important.html
Last link isn't loading, btw.
https://therunningstan.blogspot.com/2016/02/my-gripes-on-training-plans.html
https://therunningstan.blogspot.com/2016/01/why-is-oxygen-so-important.html0 -
Tacklewasher wrote: »Tacklewasher wrote: »Tacklewasher wrote: »So, don't just throw on shoes and go for a run.
Thank you for the detailed information. As someone looking to get into a half I'm very interested in this.
LOL funny you say this. A lot of people will react to all this talk and state, "why make a big deal of it? It just putting left foot in front of right foot, ect. How hard can it be?" Other's will just get one of those canned plans you find online like Hal Higeons has, or whatever book or magazine article offers up and blindly follows that. Other's like me who want to learn how to run further and faster, we get more scientific and more in depth and want to know why you do certain things. Why do I get tired if I do this? Will research what your body does when you consume a gel while running and what's the science behind that?
It can be however hard or easy you want it to be. But, I believe that the more knowledge you have in something, the better you can train and be better doing that thing. It also helps prevent a lot of mistakes and injuries.
I'm interested in this whole idea of running and being able to carry on a conversation. I can't do that. If I'm running I can't talk. But seeing the "why" of the advice is good for me. I know it will come easier as I get more miles on, and I'm looking to do just that in a controlled way, but understanding why it matters and why I need to slow down sometimes, or do sprints, helps me so I do appreciate your posts.
I'm in the same boat. If I'm running, I ain't talking (at least not in full sentences). If I slow down enough to talk, it becomes some awkward, uncoordinated, clumsy, inefficient (read: higher impact) shuffle. So for me, this is where hiking comes in.
I guess this is part of my confusion or issue. I'm trying to get my cadence up to 180 bmp as I'm told that helps prevent over-striding and injury. My normal is 160-165ish. Well, going 180 leaves me out of breath. I'm pushing it past 20 mins on the treadmill (can't wait for the snow to be gone so I can stop on the treadmill), but no way can I talk while doing it. Slowing down seems counter productive to me.
The faster you run, the quicker your steps. Thus, the slower you run, the slower your steps. I run about 170 spm during training runs. It's only during races that I get closer to 180. A lot of my recovery runs and long runs can sometimes be in the 160-165 range. I also have longer legs than most people.
Some folks with shorter legs can have quicker cadences.
One of the best things to do to prevent over striding, swing your hands backwards more and don't let them swing too much past your waist. Your feet go where your hands go. This is a technique I learned from a video that Sandi Nypaver did with Sage Cannaday on youtube to help improve form.
Also, don't jump from 165 to 180 cadence. Try going to 168 for a while first then 170, then 172, ect. But you may not need to try to improve your cadence if your cadence is correct for the pace you want to achieve and physical length of your legs.
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Tacklewasher wrote: »Tacklewasher wrote: »Tacklewasher wrote: »So, don't just throw on shoes and go for a run.
Thank you for the detailed information. As someone looking to get into a half I'm very interested in this.
LOL funny you say this. A lot of people will react to all this talk and state, "why make a big deal of it? It just putting left foot in front of right foot, ect. How hard can it be?" Other's will just get one of those canned plans you find online like Hal Higeons has, or whatever book or magazine article offers up and blindly follows that. Other's like me who want to learn how to run further and faster, we get more scientific and more in depth and want to know why you do certain things. Why do I get tired if I do this? Will research what your body does when you consume a gel while running and what's the science behind that?
It can be however hard or easy you want it to be. But, I believe that the more knowledge you have in something, the better you can train and be better doing that thing. It also helps prevent a lot of mistakes and injuries.
I'm interested in this whole idea of running and being able to carry on a conversation. I can't do that. If I'm running I can't talk. But seeing the "why" of the advice is good for me. I know it will come easier as I get more miles on, and I'm looking to do just that in a controlled way, but understanding why it matters and why I need to slow down sometimes, or do sprints, helps me so I do appreciate your posts.
I'm in the same boat. If I'm running, I ain't talking (at least not in full sentences). If I slow down enough to talk, it becomes some awkward, uncoordinated, clumsy, inefficient (read: higher impact) shuffle. So for me, this is where hiking comes in.
I guess this is part of my confusion or issue. I'm trying to get my cadence up to 180 bmp as I'm told that helps prevent over-striding and injury. My normal is 160-165ish. Well, going 180 leaves me out of breath. I'm pushing it past 20 mins on the treadmill (can't wait for the snow to be gone so I can stop on the treadmill), but no way can I talk while doing it. Slowing down seems counter productive to me.
Different goals, no? I'm kinda learning along with you, so take this for what it's worth, but more steps/increased cadence = more effort, doesn't it? Faster running, or at least faster striding? So it stands to reason that increasing SPM would also equal increased effort.0 -
Tacklewasher wrote: »Tacklewasher wrote: »Tacklewasher wrote: »So, don't just throw on shoes and go for a run.
Thank you for the detailed information. As someone looking to get into a half I'm very interested in this.
LOL funny you say this. A lot of people will react to all this talk and state, "why make a big deal of it? It just putting left foot in front of right foot, ect. How hard can it be?" Other's will just get one of those canned plans you find online like Hal Higeons has, or whatever book or magazine article offers up and blindly follows that. Other's like me who want to learn how to run further and faster, we get more scientific and more in depth and want to know why you do certain things. Why do I get tired if I do this? Will research what your body does when you consume a gel while running and what's the science behind that?
It can be however hard or easy you want it to be. But, I believe that the more knowledge you have in something, the better you can train and be better doing that thing. It also helps prevent a lot of mistakes and injuries.
I'm interested in this whole idea of running and being able to carry on a conversation. I can't do that. If I'm running I can't talk. But seeing the "why" of the advice is good for me. I know it will come easier as I get more miles on, and I'm looking to do just that in a controlled way, but understanding why it matters and why I need to slow down sometimes, or do sprints, helps me so I do appreciate your posts.
I'm in the same boat. If I'm running, I ain't talking (at least not in full sentences). If I slow down enough to talk, it becomes some awkward, uncoordinated, clumsy, inefficient (read: higher impact) shuffle. So for me, this is where hiking comes in.
I guess this is part of my confusion or issue. I'm trying to get my cadence up to 180 bmp as I'm told that helps prevent over-striding and injury. My normal is 160-165ish. Well, going 180 leaves me out of breath. I'm pushing it past 20 mins on the treadmill (can't wait for the snow to be gone so I can stop on the treadmill), but no way can I talk while doing it. Slowing down seems counter productive to me.
I think cadence should take a back seat to aerobic base, but that is just me....
each person's body mechanics will have their own optimum (in terms of efficiency) cadence. I focus more on the crown of the head to the sky, shoulder's back, lead with the nips and getting rid of the anterior pelvic tilt (this is what fixed my brief stint of IT band issues). My cadence is what it is, I have no pain and run 12+ hours/week.
Slowing down does seem counter productive. But, I have seen the results, others have too and the physiology backs it up. It's the "no pain no gain" mentality that we all need to shake. I even get caught up in the machismo some times when I have someone nipping on my heels on the trail. I always remind myself, it is the muscle adaptations that matter, not who trains the "hardest" (which most interpret to mean intense, not hours logged).
I love this article by Mike Pigg. http://runlogic.blogspot.com/2012/12/mike-pigg-and-maffetone-method.htmlIt is amazing how I was seeing good aerobic results in my workouts, but I still had doubts about my performance level. You see, I still needed my hammer sessions to build my self-confidence that I was ready to race at a professional level. The season opener was in Australia at the Surfers Paradise International Triathlon. My confidence was so low that I didn’t even want to get on the plane. But a swift kick from my wife Marci and I was off. The whole week prior to the race, I was fighting with myself, saying that I wasn’t going to do well because of a lack of speed training. Finally, I told myself to shut up and go have a good time. To my surprise I did have a good time, and I won. For some reason the speed and endurance were definitely there.
....
But this approach to developing speed is not a priority. Instead, developing aerobic speed, where an athlete can run much faster with the same effort compared to weeks and months earlier, is an important priority. This not only provides significant speed during training and racing, but it’s accomplished with much less stress, so the risk of injury and overtraining is greatly reduced.
.....
many endurance athletes expend significant time and energy on intensely hard anaerobic workouts, often neglecting or impairing the aerobic system in the process. This is counterproductive. In a one-hour event, 98 percent of your endurance energy is derived from the aerobic system; in a two-hour event, 99 percent is. Does it make sense to spend so many hours a week on anaerobic work when 99 percent of your race energy comes from the aerobic system? Instead, it’s best to first derive your endurance speed from aerobic training, then, as time and energy permits, to add anaerobic training.
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ronocnikral wrote: »I focus more on the crown of the head to the sky, shoulder's back, lead with the nips and getting rid of the anterior pelvic tilt (this is what fixed my brief stint of IT band issues).
I know it's a sidetrack, but I can't run like that outside. I'm head down watching where I plant my feet right now. Got no choice as the ground is still partially covered and slick. Last run I didn't use my trax and regretted it.
But I get it and will fix this once I don't have to be so careful. Part of the pain of being Canadian.
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Tacklewasher - I agree about the cadence being largely a function of how fast and with how much effort you are running. My new watch has a cadence feature, which I've never had before. For my easy pace, my cadence is about 165. When I am running up or down steep hills, it may be 190 because I take short quick steps. If I am running a tempo run or intervals, it will be 180-185. It varies. For your easy aerobic runs, don't worry about it. Do pay attention to where you land your feet, which is really more important than the actual cadence. They should land under your body, not ahead of it.0
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Cadence and stride length are going to go hand in hand to determine your pace. It does take some playing around to feel how to run at a slower pace while keeping your mechanics, for some people. I was like that. But once you figure it out, it's easy. With some practice, you can keep the same cadence and just increase stride length to go faster. I believe that's the preferred method compared to adjusting cadence to adjust speed. (Anyone have opinions to this?)
I was also one of those people who couldn't wrap my head around slower training runs that everyone preached. But it does work and is true.
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My coach has me do runs with a metronome app occasionally. I set the app to 180 and just match my run cadence to the "clicks" from the app. The goal of these runs is to focus on my running posture and match cadence so that I can optimize speed without working any harder.0
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