low glycogen stores vs low fitness levels
jjpptt2
Posts: 5,650 Member
We see a lot of threads that ask about, either directly or indirectly, glycogen stores and exercise. It could be related to fasted vs fed exercise, general meal timing, pre-workout nutrition, or even cals during exercise (gels/gus/blocks/etc). People talk about feeling tired after a certain number of miles or a specific amount of time. I'm sure most of us know these threads and are familiar with the conversations.
But what I don't often see is people talking about the fact that, sometimes, a person just isn't trained to exercise that far, that long, that hard. I think its easy to want to see a difference by adding in a gel at mile 8 or eating a few more carbs before a workout or whatever else... I get that. But I think most people probably just need to log more miles and more hours, and be a bit more patient.
I'm not sure where exactly I'm going with all of this, but it's something I've been thinking a lot about recently (both generally in terms of MFP AND as it relates to myself and my training). I dunno... I guess take this conversation wherever you want. Maybe it's just a PSA.
But what I don't often see is people talking about the fact that, sometimes, a person just isn't trained to exercise that far, that long, that hard. I think its easy to want to see a difference by adding in a gel at mile 8 or eating a few more carbs before a workout or whatever else... I get that. But I think most people probably just need to log more miles and more hours, and be a bit more patient.
I'm not sure where exactly I'm going with all of this, but it's something I've been thinking a lot about recently (both generally in terms of MFP AND as it relates to myself and my training). I dunno... I guess take this conversation wherever you want. Maybe it's just a PSA.
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It also depends on how you train. I do lots of "slow" and "steady state" aerobic training. My body can run on my fat stores, which there is plenty of. My muscles demand mostly fats, and my liver can make whatever glycogen I need from fats.
This translates into 18+ hour days in the mountains without eating or bonking. The bottom line is, one should train and know how to fuel their bodies for their activities.2 -
Yes, I think with people who are newer to endurance activities, there is a tendency to over-estimate the ability fuel has to boost performance/keep one going (I know I did when I was newer).
Now I've hit the wall in a long race due to insufficient fueling, so I know what it feels like. But a big chunk of the time, most of the answers (IMO) can be found with more training . . . more miles and more hours on your feet. A gel pack just isn't going to be a key factor during your typical half marathon.
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ronocnikral wrote: »It also depends on how you train. I do lots of "slow" and "steady state" aerobic training. My body can run on my fat stores, which there is plenty of. My muscles demand mostly fats, and my liver can make whatever glycogen I need from fats.
This translates into 18+ hour days in the mountains without eating or bonking. The bottom line is, one should train and know how to fuel their bodies for their activities.
Just curious... but what are you doing for 18+ hours in the mountains??? Yikes. I assume hiking?0 -
janejellyroll wrote: »Yes, I think with people who are newer to endurance activities, there is a tendency to over-estimate the ability fuel has to boost performance/keep one going (I know I did when I was newer).
Now I've hit the wall in a long race due to insufficient fueling, so I know what it feels like. But a big chunk of the time, most of the answers (IMO) can be found with more training . . . more miles and more hours on your feet. A gel pack just isn't going to be a key factor during your typical half marathon.
Yea, I've bonked as well. Once upon a time, I was a fairly decent triathlete. I bonked on 2 different occasions... but even now, doing much more modest workouts/activities, I find myself wanting to tweak my nutrition to get that much needed boost, when really I just need to work myself back into decent shape. Seems age and injuries are a lot harder to overcome these days.0 -
But what I don't often see is people talking about the fact that, sometimes, a person just isn't trained to exercise that far, that long, that hard. I think its easy to want to see a difference by adding in a gel at mile 8 or eating a few more carbs before a workout or whatever else... I get that. But I think most people probably just need to log more miles and more hours, and be a bit more patient.
This applied to several people in my training group last season. Two instances come to mind. The first was during winter marathon training. One member of our group played competitive tennis during the week, but did not complete much of the suggested run mileage from Mon-Fri. This led to some painful Saturday long runs as the distances increased, since he did not have the base mileage needed to run successfully when distances started exceeding 12-13 miles. He often complained about low energy and nutrition problems, but I believe most issues stemmed from lack of sufficient run volume. It eventually led to a leg injury and a long recovery post race.
A similar situation occurred during bike rides over the summer. While training for a hilly September tri, we built up volume that included both increasing distance and plenty of climbing. The rides were to be followed by a transition run off the bike, starting at around 20 minutes, building to a 60 minute run as we approached race day. Two members of the group, who are generally strong cyclists, really struggled with the hills and distances, stopping more frequently than needed and often skipping the transition run. Again, my opinion is that they had just not put in the weekly miles needed to manage the long ride/run sessions.
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I suspect it also has something to do with not having built up mitochondial density. They may have a reasonable amount of glycogen stored but aren't generating ATP quickly enough.
Many people, it seems, wants to go from zero to half-marathon or 70.3 triathlon without putting in the time and miles.0 -
Yes. There's a difference between having the fuel (glycogen) and athletic conditioning. Eg my first 100 mile ride (previous longest was 77). I still remember pedaling home at 12 mph (flat), with gu in my back pockets, feeling like death.
And around the neighborhood for 4 miles just to say I did it. Heh.0 -
But what I don't often see is people talking about the fact that, sometimes, a person just isn't trained to exercise that far, that long, that hard. I think its easy to want to see a difference by adding in a gel at mile 8 or eating a few more carbs before a workout or whatever else... I get that. But I think most people probably just need to log more miles and more hours, and be a bit more patient.
This applied to several people in my training group last season. Two instances come to mind. The first was during winter marathon training. One member of our group played competitive tennis during the week, but did not complete much of the suggested run mileage from Mon-Fri. This led to some painful Saturday long runs as the distances increased, since he did not have the base mileage needed to run successfully when distances started exceeding 12-13 miles. He often complained about low energy and nutrition problems, but I believe most issues stemmed from lack of sufficient run volume. It eventually led to a leg injury and a long recovery post race.
A similar situation occurred during bike rides over the summer. While training for a hilly September tri, we built up volume that included both increasing distance and plenty of climbing. The rides were to be followed by a transition run off the bike, starting at around 20 minutes, building to a 60 minute run as we approached race day. Two members of the group, who are generally strong cyclists, really struggled with the hills and distances, stopping more frequently than needed and often skipping the transition run. Again, my opinion is that they had just not put in the weekly miles needed to manage the long ride/run sessions.
These are two great examples. Preparation involves so many components.
Three weeks ago I was doing the Lake Placid computrainer loop and hopping off for a 45-60 minute run (sometimes 1 full loop, sometimes only "48 miles").
I was fine flat. The minute I attempted treadmill hills (include 1-12%), I totally cramped up. Nothing was different with nutrition, sweat, etc. It's simply training your muscles, ligaments, nervous system, mind, everything, to prepare for conditions. It's more than volume. It's more than consistency. It's repetitive smart consistency on a weekly, monthly, yearly basis, with dutiful organization and constant moment-to-moment reevaluation of: where your body's at, how you're feeling, what you need. So much becomes intuitive.0 -
I met a woman who did her first half marathon in November and then said she was doing a marathon in January?
I could have walked the half marathon in the time it took her to run (15 minute miles), so she's not a stellar athlete by any means. I haven't researched marathon training, but wouldn't you need more training time?!
I told my husband it wasn't happening. And it didn't.
This has nothing to do with the nutrition end of the question - it just made me think - I guess there are others out there who think the training isn't really necessary or that think they'll magically be successful because they want to be?
But then there is an abundance of people who still think there's some magic to this whole weight loss thing, so I guess I shouldn't be surprised.0 -
But what I don't often see is people talking about the fact that, sometimes, a person just isn't trained to exercise that far, that long, that hard. I think its easy to want to see a difference by adding in a gel at mile 8 or eating a few more carbs before a workout or whatever else... I get that. But I think most people probably just need to log more miles and more hours, and be a bit more patient.
This applied to several people in my training group last season. Two instances come to mind. The first was during winter marathon training. One member of our group played competitive tennis during the week, but did not complete much of the suggested run mileage from Mon-Fri. This led to some painful Saturday long runs as the distances increased, since he did not have the base mileage needed to run successfully when distances started exceeding 12-13 miles. He often complained about low energy and nutrition problems, but I believe most issues stemmed from lack of sufficient run volume. It eventually led to a leg injury and a long recovery post race.
A similar situation occurred during bike rides over the summer. While training for a hilly September tri, we built up volume that included both increasing distance and plenty of climbing. The rides were to be followed by a transition run off the bike, starting at around 20 minutes, building to a 60 minute run as we approached race day. Two members of the group, who are generally strong cyclists, really struggled with the hills and distances, stopping more frequently than needed and often skipping the transition run. Again, my opinion is that they had just not put in the weekly miles needed to manage the long ride/run sessions.
Yep. I'm definitely in that first group. Part of me is still coming to terms with just how significantly my lack of volume is limiting me (it's significant, lol)... but at the moment, it's hard for me to fit in those longer sessions based on other life priorities.0 -
Often you will see someone who is overweight, under-fit and trying to fix everything in an unrealistic time-frame.
Cutting calories, often dramatically and paired with the currently fashionable cutting carbs and at the same time launching into an unaccustomed, and sometimes too ambitious, exercise routine isn't a good combination.
Even a very fit athlete would struggle for performance and recovery if you put them in a 1000 cal deficit.
People's expectations are too often just unrealistic. Unless you are young or returning to a previous high fitness level - it simply takes time to build a fitness base.
There's also a bit of a current trend for people talking complete twaddle about glycogen and ways to manipulate it, even though for most people's modest exercise goals and routines it's simply not a valid concern.
I wish these people could have seen me when I was new to long distance cycling and bonked hard after 80 miles (only fuelled for 60...). Struggling with two flat tyres (they weren't....) up an invisible hill, into a non-existent headwind and so confused I cycled right past shops where I could have refuelled and even forgot to unclip from my pedals when I stopped at a junction.1 -
Yes, the more highly trained your aerobic system is, the better "shape" you're in, the easier it is for your body to run off fat because your exertion levels aren't that high. People workout at higher levels of intensity/exertion and blow thru glycogen stores quickly.
Someone else mentioned about hills and bursts of strenuous effort. Train for how the race is. I know several people who are very good road runners, would smoke me in a marathon, but attempted a trail race with tons of elevation and the hills killed them.1 -
But what I don't often see is people talking about the fact that, sometimes, a person just isn't trained to exercise that far, that long, that hard. I think its easy to want to see a difference by adding in a gel at mile 8 or eating a few more carbs before a workout or whatever else... I get that. But I think most people probably just need to log more miles and more hours, and be a bit more patient.
This applied to several people in my training group last season. Two instances come to mind. The first was during winter marathon training. One member of our group played competitive tennis during the week, but did not complete much of the suggested run mileage from Mon-Fri. This led to some painful Saturday long runs as the distances increased, since he did not have the base mileage needed to run successfully when distances started exceeding 12-13 miles. He often complained about low energy and nutrition problems, but I believe most issues stemmed from lack of sufficient run volume. It eventually led to a leg injury and a long recovery post race.
A similar situation occurred during bike rides over the summer. While training for a hilly September tri, we built up volume that included both increasing distance and plenty of climbing. The rides were to be followed by a transition run off the bike, starting at around 20 minutes, building to a 60 minute run as we approached race day. Two members of the group, who are generally strong cyclists, really struggled with the hills and distances, stopping more frequently than needed and often skipping the transition run. Again, my opinion is that they had just not put in the weekly miles needed to manage the long ride/run sessions.
These are two great examples. Preparation involves so many components.
Three weeks ago I was doing the Lake Placid computrainer loop and hopping off for a 45-60 minute run (sometimes 1 full loop, sometimes only "48 miles").
I was fine flat. The minute I attempted treadmill hills (include 1-12%), I totally cramped up. Nothing was different with nutrition, sweat, etc. It's simply training your muscles, ligaments, nervous system, mind, everything, to prepare for conditions. It's more than volume. It's more than consistency. It's repetitive smart consistency on a weekly, monthly, yearly basis, with dutiful organization and constant moment-to-moment reevaluation of: where your body's at, how you're feeling, what you need. So much becomes intuitive.
Agree with your observations about consistency and body awareness. Getting at least 90% of the workouts completed and managing training fatigue during high volume periods are the big keys to success IMO. BTW, the bike example I mentioned occurred during our build for the Lake Placid 70.3 race in September.0 -
ronocnikral wrote: »It also depends on how you train. I do lots of "slow" and "steady state" aerobic training. My body can run on my fat stores, which there is plenty of. My muscles demand mostly fats, and my liver can make whatever glycogen I need from fats.
This translates into 18+ hour days in the mountains without eating or bonking. The bottom line is, one should train and know how to fuel their bodies for their activities.
Just curious... but what are you doing for 18+ hours in the mountains??? Yikes. I assume hiking?
Exploring. Climbing. Hiking. Skiing. What everyone else does in the mountains.1 -
janejellyroll wrote: »Yes, I think with people who are newer to endurance activities, there is a tendency to over-estimate the ability fuel has to boost performance/keep one going (I know I did when I was newer).
Now I've hit the wall in a long race due to insufficient fueling, so I know what it feels like. But a big chunk of the time, most of the answers (IMO) can be found with more training . . . more miles and more hours on your feet. A gel pack just isn't going to be a key factor during your typical half marathon.
This is a very good point.
I'd add to it a frequent "rookie mistake" and that is, just about everyone feels great on race day and that often leads to pacing problems among newer participants, specifically, going out too fast. Then, when the "crash" occurs, no amount of gel, shot blocks, gatorade, coke or pretzels are going to save the race.1 -
janejellyroll wrote: »Yes, I think with people who are newer to endurance activities, there is a tendency to over-estimate the ability fuel has to boost performance/keep one going (I know I did when I was newer).
Now I've hit the wall in a long race due to insufficient fueling, so I know what it feels like. But a big chunk of the time, most of the answers (IMO) can be found with more training . . . more miles and more hours on your feet. A gel pack just isn't going to be a key factor during your typical half marathon.
This is a very good point.
I'd add to it a frequent "rookie mistake" and that is, just about everyone feels great on race day and that often leads to pacing problems among newer participants, specifically, going out too fast. Then, when the "crash" occurs, no amount of gel, shot blocks, gatorade, coke or pretzels are going to save the race.
You just perfectly described my first marathon! I went way too fast for the first twenty miles because I felt so great. The last six miles were agony. I finished, but barely. Fortunately, I knew exactly what the problem was, so I was able to fix it for future races.0 -
Being tired after a certain mile can be just being tired in general. Maybe not recovering from previous run adequately, increasing miles to quickly; improper pace management when covering longer distances. Could be a inadequate calorie balance as a whole does not support their training. Calorie deficits can impact sleep for some. Add in proper hydration etc. Many things for being tired, fatigued or bonking during the run.
A 10% increase is always recommended increase each week for mileage, never seen it advocated differently here. I see alot of questions about not having enough stamina for new runners, they start out too fast, go too long, perhaps under fueled/hydrated, etc. Almost always there is advice for them to find a beginner running plan so they build aerobic base, etc, as they get experience integrate different types of runs in their weekly training, etc.
As far fueling, we have plenty of glycogen/carbs on board to carry us through about an hours worth of moderate intensity... BUT everyone needs needs to learn what works for them based on time of day they run, current conditioning, fitness levels, running distance and running experience. I only fuel during my run if I plan to be running longer than 10 miles usually fuel around mile 6.5/7 (I only do half marathon distances)
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janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Yes, I think with people who are newer to endurance activities, there is a tendency to over-estimate the ability fuel has to boost performance/keep one going (I know I did when I was newer).
Now I've hit the wall in a long race due to insufficient fueling, so I know what it feels like. But a big chunk of the time, most of the answers (IMO) can be found with more training . . . more miles and more hours on your feet. A gel pack just isn't going to be a key factor during your typical half marathon.
This is a very good point.
I'd add to it a frequent "rookie mistake" and that is, just about everyone feels great on race day and that often leads to pacing problems among newer participants, specifically, going out too fast. Then, when the "crash" occurs, no amount of gel, shot blocks, gatorade, coke or pretzels are going to save the race.
You just perfectly described my first marathon! I went way too fast for the first twenty miles because I felt so great. The last six miles were agony. I finished, but barely. Fortunately, I knew exactly what the problem was, so I was able to fix it for future races.
I certainly fit that description more than once, especially when riding a bike on race day. Its SO tempting to find a group of riders who are holding a pace that is slightly faster than what you've trained for and think "I can stick with this group!" Trying to keep up with a faster bike group almost always makes the run that follows resemble a march to the gallows. Speaking from bitter personal experience,
picking up 2 mph on the bike split led to a meltdown that caused me to limp across the finish line after walking most of the half marathon. I made that mistake twice before accepting reality. 1 -
janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Yes, I think with people who are newer to endurance activities, there is a tendency to over-estimate the ability fuel has to boost performance/keep one going (I know I did when I was newer).
Now I've hit the wall in a long race due to insufficient fueling, so I know what it feels like. But a big chunk of the time, most of the answers (IMO) can be found with more training . . . more miles and more hours on your feet. A gel pack just isn't going to be a key factor during your typical half marathon.
This is a very good point.
I'd add to it a frequent "rookie mistake" and that is, just about everyone feels great on race day and that often leads to pacing problems among newer participants, specifically, going out too fast. Then, when the "crash" occurs, no amount of gel, shot blocks, gatorade, coke or pretzels are going to save the race.
You just perfectly described my first marathon! I went way too fast for the first twenty miles because I felt so great. The last six miles were agony. I finished, but barely. Fortunately, I knew exactly what the problem was, so I was able to fix it for future races.
I certainly fit that description more than once, especially when riding a bike on race day. Its SO tempting to find a group of riders who are holding a pace that is slightly faster than what you've trained for and think "I can stick with this group!" Trying to keep up with a faster bike group almost always makes the run that follows resemble a march to the gallows. Speaking from bitter personal experience, picking up 2 mph on the bike split led to a meltdown that caused me to limp across the finish line after walking most of the half marathon. I made that mistake twice before accepting reality.
I may have done that at one point... the lone DNF of my racing career.0 -
janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Yes, I think with people who are newer to endurance activities, there is a tendency to over-estimate the ability fuel has to boost performance/keep one going (I know I did when I was newer).
Now I've hit the wall in a long race due to insufficient fueling, so I know what it feels like. But a big chunk of the time, most of the answers (IMO) can be found with more training . . . more miles and more hours on your feet. A gel pack just isn't going to be a key factor during your typical half marathon.
This is a very good point.
I'd add to it a frequent "rookie mistake" and that is, just about everyone feels great on race day and that often leads to pacing problems among newer participants, specifically, going out too fast. Then, when the "crash" occurs, no amount of gel, shot blocks, gatorade, coke or pretzels are going to save the race.
You just perfectly described my first marathon! I went way too fast for the first twenty miles because I felt so great. The last six miles were agony. I finished, but barely. Fortunately, I knew exactly what the problem was, so I was able to fix it for future races.
"You're half over at mile 20."
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janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Yes, I think with people who are newer to endurance activities, there is a tendency to over-estimate the ability fuel has to boost performance/keep one going (I know I did when I was newer).
Now I've hit the wall in a long race due to insufficient fueling, so I know what it feels like. But a big chunk of the time, most of the answers (IMO) can be found with more training . . . more miles and more hours on your feet. A gel pack just isn't going to be a key factor during your typical half marathon.
This is a very good point.
I'd add to it a frequent "rookie mistake" and that is, just about everyone feels great on race day and that often leads to pacing problems among newer participants, specifically, going out too fast. Then, when the "crash" occurs, no amount of gel, shot blocks, gatorade, coke or pretzels are going to save the race.
You just perfectly described my first marathon! I went way too fast for the first twenty miles because I felt so great. The last six miles were agony. I finished, but barely. Fortunately, I knew exactly what the problem was, so I was able to fix it for future races.
"You're half over at mile 20."
So true!0 -
Agree with your observations about consistency and body awareness. Getting at least 90% of the workouts completed and managing training fatigue during high volume periods are the big keys to success IMO. BTW, the bike example I mentioned occurred during our build for the Lake Placid 70.3 race in September.
90% is that magical number. You've had a lot of coaching/training.
I'll be doing a camp in June, maybe May too. Excited. I've never been up there. Signed up for the full. Any tips? 0 -
Agree with your observations about consistency and body awareness. Getting at least 90% of the workouts completed and managing training fatigue during high volume periods are the big keys to success IMO. BTW, the bike example I mentioned occurred during our build for the Lake Placid 70.3 race in September.
90% is that magical number. You've had a lot of coaching/training.
I'll be doing a camp in June, maybe May too. Excited. I've never been up there. Signed up for the full. Any tips?
It's an awesome course! Not easy, but awesome! GL and enjoy it.0 -
Isn't this just another sub-case of disliking work and patience, and seeking speedy magic instead?
The magic-seeking frequently seems to lead people to reach into some trendy grab bag of whatever the cool elite kids allegedly do to get their 0.1% advantage over other elites . . . ignoring the "years of regular patient hard work" part that got them the first 99.9%. Many people want to be one of the insider cool kids more than they want to do the thing itself. (To me, it seems like the real magic is loving the thing itself.)
See it in sports/athleticism, weight loss, music performance, studio art, cooking . . . . and I routinely see it in myself.
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I certainly fit that description more than once, especially when riding a bike on race day. Its SO tempting to find a group of riders who are holding a pace that is slightly faster than what you've trained for and think "I can stick with this group!" Trying to keep up with a faster bike group almost always makes the run that follows resemble a march to the gallows. Speaking from bitter personal experience, picking up 2 mph on the bike split led to a meltdown that caused me to limp across the finish line after walking most of the half marathon. I made that mistake twice before accepting reality.
Heh. I'll be doing an LP camp with a friend who has done the full LP course 10+ times. He did the bike in under 5 hours --YES-- five, and crashed on the run (total time was barely under 11 hours). His piece of advice: save the legs for the run (he doesn't know what a crummy runner I am heh).1 -
Isn't this just another sub-case of disliking work and patience, and seeking speedy magic instead?
The magic-seeking frequently seems to lead people to reach into some trendy grab bag of whatever the cool elite kids allegedly do to get their 0.1% advantage over other elites . . . ignoring the "years of regular patient hard work" part that got them the first 99.9%. Many people want to be one of the insider cool kids more than they want to do the thing itself. (To me, it seems like the real magic is loving the thing itself.)
See it in sports/athleticism, weight loss, music performance, studio art, cooking . . . . and I routinely see it in myself.
Sometimes... but I think sometimes it's a genuine naivete.
I think there is, often times, an assumption that getting tired during a long run/ride/whatever = not enough energy = more cals/fuel. My point was that it's often under (or poor) training, not actually fuel. If you've actually run out of available energy during an event/activity, there's no mistaking it. But until you've done it, it can be hard to figure out what is really limiting you.1 -
Isn't this just another sub-case of disliking work and patience, and seeking speedy magic instead?
The magic-seeking frequently seems to lead people to reach into some trendy grab bag of whatever the cool elite kids allegedly do to get their 0.1% advantage over other elites . . . ignoring the "years of regular patient hard work" part that got them the first 99.9%. Many people want to be one of the insider cool kids more than they want to do the thing itself. (To me, it seems like the real magic is loving the thing itself.)
See it in sports/athleticism, weight loss, music performance, studio art, cooking . . . . and I routinely see it in myself.
I think a lot of people are hard working and giving their best efforts. They simply get to a point where they're fatigued and don't have the experience to know better.
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Heh. I'll be doing an LP camp with a friend who has done the full LP course 10+ times. He did the bike in under 5 hours --YES-- five, and crashed on the run (total time was barely under 11 hours). His piece of advice: save the legs for the run (he doesn't know what a crummy runner I am heh).
Took me 4 years to learn it, but I eventually leaned it - I can't win a race on the bike, but I can sure as hell lose it.0
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