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Why do people deny CICO ?
Replies
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I believe that it isn't CICO people are really debating. It's CALORIE COUNTING. A lot of people don't believe that calorie counting "works," by which they mean that they either dislike doing it or that they do it for a while, then stop and gain the weight back (which has happened to me many times).
If you ask someone who is a "CICO denier:" Do you mean to say that you don't believe that you will lose weight if you eat fewer calories than your body burns? They will capitulate.
I have demonstrated MFP to a wide range of people and ALMOST EVERY TIME people respond with "I could never do that." Also, I have several friends (including my wife) who have lost weight without counting calories. Some do a low-carb diet, some do a diet where a wide range of foods is placed off limits. In either case, it's just a way to limit calories. Low-carb has the added advantage of being a diuretic, where you dump a certain amount of "water weight" in the first week or two. None of this contradicts the basic fact that CICO ultimately rules weight loss.25 -
Eating 2000 calories of lard vs 2000 calories of pure protein does still follow CICO. The protein digestion just increases the OUT portion of CICO. I think people trying to argue this sort of way are purposely trying to find the 1% of cases to try and disprove the 99%. Science doesn't work that way though.
One thing I have always wondered is if chronic malnutrition can cause organs to not function at their peak performance, potentially resulting in lower calorie usage or would it be simply less efficient usage and thus no change. I honestly have no clue on this. Just throwing that out there... would love to hear from someone in the know on that one.5 -
So many people just don't grasp the concept of calories in calories out. They tell me that not all calories are equal and that you have to eat healthy to lose weight. I used to argue with these people but lately I just smile and nod. It's worked for me.. I eat basically anything I want and have lost 5 kg. I feel so many more people would be successful at weight loss if they just grasped this simple scientific concept. I'm hoping to reach my ultimate weight and then write a blog list about how I did it and prove all the CICO deniers wrong
I hope you do not have your hopes too high that people who deny weight management is about calories will admit you are right just because you lose weight. Pretty sure they aren't going to change.
However, there are others who just don't know that it is that simple because of all the fad diet noise and may benefit from your story.4 -
There's a large group of dieters that struggle because of the factors you mention, practical implementations of the simple concept of calories in-calories out - but those are not the "CICO deniers". The CICO deniers are real, and they come in a range of colors, some refuse to believe the basic concept of calories, some believe their metabolism is "broken", some ask if they are eating too little to lose weight, some can't understand that double portion means twice the calories, some think that if they only eat "clean", they will lose weight, or ask what exercises they should do to burn "belly fat". (I don't see overhauling one's diet, or cooking more, as problematic, at all - but I do have an impression that many people think cooking is boring and pointless.)So many people just don't grasp the concept of calories in calories out. They tell me that not all calories are equal and that you have to eat healthy to lose weight. I used to argue with these people but lately I just smile and nod. It's worked for me.. I eat basically anything I want and have lost 5 kg. I feel so many more people would be successful at weight loss if they just grasped this simple scientific concept. I'm hoping to reach my ultimate weight and then write a blog list about how I did it and prove all the CICO deniers wrong
Congratulations on your weight loss, and I'm glad that eating basically anything you want is working for you. However, I think calling it a "simple scientific concept" is a bit glib.
Yes, scientifically, CICO is simple. Eat less than you burn. People don't actually have trouble grasping that concept, what they have trouble with is incorporating the behaviors needed to get their bodies into that ratio.
For some people, it's easy. For others, there are more challenges. Some people have medical issues or physical limitations. Others have issues with certain foods, and need to figure what types of foods help them feel full or how to structure their meal plan so they don't have moments where they end up ravenous and make poor choices. Some people need to completely overhaul how they eat; it's not uncommon to see people switch to preparing more meals at home. Other people may have cultural or familial expectations around food, or struggle to increase their activity level (no, you don't need to exercise to lose weight per se, but for a lot of people, having that extra calorie burn allows them to eat the amount that keeps them on the right track). Others have lifestyles or commitments which make getting into a weight loss routine a challenge. Others struggle with mental health issues.
None of the things I mentioned above mean that a person cannot lose weight, but it also doesn't mean that they just don't understand weight loss. There are people on this site who have been here for years who have regained weight, or still have difficulty moderating certain foods, or are still working on figuring out how to maintain weight without slipping into old habits. All of them know how the "simple" process works, but that doesn't mean that's it's always going to be easy in practice.
And to be fair, many people are on this site because they need the tools provided here in order to track their intake and help them get into that CICO ratio, so even if the concept is "simple," losing weight wasn't exactly "simple" without having that to help them.23 -
I can only tell you why I didn’t want to believe it was just CICO. Because if it’s that simple then I couldn’t make excuses anymore. But if it’s some magical elusive thing then it’s not my fault and I didn’t truly have to put in the work. I’m glad I finally came around and now I’m putting in the work.44
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One thing I will admit is that I am equally as dismissive of the woo that they believe, so it often comes across as just being convinced by a different book/product/TV personality than they are, not science that easily disproves what they believe. They have been told there is science behind what they believe. In a debate, they feel like they are on even footing at worst.12
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terryritter1 wrote: »The fact is that the principle of CICO for weight loss is effective in practice. Recording what you eat and keeping a calorie deficit, which is, at the fundamental level, what causes weight loss, is highly effective process for someone with that goal. But, it's also way too simplistic. Though it is a "simple scientific concept", the body isn't. When you have a biological environment that has higher insulin, that does change how people's bodies manage metabolism.
So, at one level, CICO is a good tool. At deeper level, it's not that simple. Anyone that has a deeper understanding of biology knows this, or should. Just because it is a good methodology doesn't mean it's all things. We argue about this because we want to live in a binary world. Calories matter, not doubt. But, composition does, too.
Ultimately, who's more right isn't important. If CICO works for someone's quest to lose weight, it just doesn't matter (and no blog of an anecdotal nature will convince me otherwise, though I will cheer your success nonetheless).
Very well said. Our bodies are not simple. There is so much people don't understand about how hormones control metabolism, cravings, hunger, fat storage, muscle development, etc. CICO works, but for some it is much harder to master, and not because they are lazy or not trying.35 -
Eating 2000 calories of lard vs 2000 calories of pure protein does still follow CICO. The protein digestion just increases the OUT portion of CICO. I think people trying to argue this sort of way are purposely trying to find the 1% of cases to try and disprove the 99%. Science doesn't work that way though.
This part above contradicts original poster who said "eat" calories. To take CICO to its full definition, you have to consider the "out" part as well. "out" formula is not exercise alone, it may be the source of the calories you eat.
When people debate CICO, most are referring to the effort calorie counting strategy and/or exercise, rather than the formula. Personally I find calorie counting helpful, but sugar spikes ruin my ability to stick with the counting part. Also if caffeine, high protein, or things other than 'eating' help the energy out, even a little, it makes it easier in the long run.14 -
Not all, go in the keto community for example, many will claim carbs are bad and evil, then you have other groups who blame sugar and when I listen to the nonsense being thrown by my coworkers about nutrition....I get the impression the majority of the people have no clue how weight loss really works. My mom for example thinks she eats 1200 calories, but she doesn't weigh anything and visually I can tell she eats more calories than that, but she denies it.terryritter1 wrote: »The fact is that the principle of CICO for weight loss is effective in practice. Recording what you eat and keeping a calorie deficit, which is, at the fundamental level, what causes weight loss, is highly effective process for someone with that goal. But, it's also way too simplistic. Though it is a "simple scientific concept", the body isn't. When you have a biological environment that has higher insulin, that does change how people's bodies manage metabolism.
So, at one level, CICO is a good tool. At deeper level, it's not that simple. Anyone that has a deeper understanding of biology knows this, or should. Just because it is a good methodology doesn't mean it's all things. We argue about this because we want to live in a binary world. Calories matter, not doubt. But, composition does, too.
Ultimately, who's more right isn't important. If CICO works for someone's quest to lose weight, it just doesn't matter (and no blog of an anecdotal nature will convince me otherwise, though I will cheer your success nonetheless).
Very well said. Our bodies are not simple. There is so much people don't understand about how hormones control metabolism, cravings, hunger, fat storage, muscle development, etc. CICO works, but for some it is much harder to master, and not because they are lazy or not trying.
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kommodevaran wrote: »I have spent four years investigating this fascinating phenomenon, and this is my conclusion so far: Human beings are social animals. So people don't want easy and comfortable strategies to effectively reach their weightloss and fitness goals, people want to do pointless and hard, but also exciting, symbolic weightloss things, so they can feel that they're doing something, impress their peers, share struggles with them, and then have the necessary excuses to sabotage themselves, because people don't want to be outcasts. People are also deeply religious, even in our seemingly secular societies; a constant need to confess and repent for indulging in worldly pleasures. People also don't easily grasp concepts, so they want and need clear-cut rules, recipes and fat burning exercises. People, sheeple.
Yeah, this rings true to me. I think you are on to something!3 -
Eating 2000 calories of lard vs 2000 calories of pure protein does still follow CICO. The protein digestion just increases the OUT portion of CICO. I think people trying to argue this sort of way are purposely trying to find the 1% of cases to try and disprove the 99%. Science doesn't work that way though.
One thing I have always wondered is if chronic malnutrition can cause organs to not function at their peak performance, potentially resulting in lower calorie usage or would it be simply less efficient usage and thus no change. I honestly have no clue on this. Just throwing that out there... would love to hear from someone in the know on that one.
The thing is all of those things will result in a greater deficit, by either reducing effective CI or increasing actual CO.0 -
Eating 2000 calories of lard vs 2000 calories of pure protein does still follow CICO. The protein digestion just increases the OUT portion of CICO. I think people trying to argue this sort of way are purposely trying to find the 1% of cases to try and disprove the 99%. Science doesn't work that way though.
This part above contradicts original poster who said "eat" calories. To take CICO to its full definition, you have to consider the "out" part as well. "out" formula is not exercise alone, it may be the source of the calories you eat.
When people debate CICO, most are referring to the effort calorie counting strategy and/or exercise, rather than the formula. Personally I find calorie counting helpful, but sugar spikes ruin my ability to stick with the counting part. Also if caffeine, high protein, or things other than 'eating' help the energy out, even a little, it makes it easier in the long run.
I think my statement perfectly matches with the OP. My mention of this doesn't make it a significant contributor to differences in out calories that'd cause fat loss problems.
A person eating 1500 calories of fat spends 15 calories on processing and storage while 1500 of protein is 300 calories on processing and storage. But this is a total edge case that is totally unrealistic and even absurd. The different would be within 30% of total intake calories, so 450 in this case where the extra fat would be 4.5 calories to process and store and the protein would be 90 calories to store. The 85 calorie difference is not a significant contributing factor in a 500 deficit given PERFECT measurements and EXACT calorie output per day.0 -
Jthanmyfitnesspal wrote: »I believe that it isn't CICO people are really debating. It's CALORIE COUNTING. A lot of people don't believe that calorie counting "works," by which they mean that they either dislike doing it or that they do it for a while, then stop and gain the weight back (which has happened to me many times).
If you ask someone who is a "CICO denier:" Do you mean to say that you don't believe that you will lose weight if you eat fewer calories than your body burns? They will capitulate.
I have demonstrated MFP to a wide range of people and ALMOST EVERY TIME people respond with "I could never do that." Also, I have several friends (including my wife) who have lost weight without counting calories. Some do a low-carb diet, some do a diet where a wide range of foods is placed off limits. In either case, it's just a way to limit calories. Low-carb has the added advantage of being a diuretic, where you dump a certain amount of "water weight" in the first week or two. None of this contradicts the basic fact that CICO ultimately rules weight loss.
While I do agree that calorie counting might not be for everyone, what gets me is people who who have the mentality (As I used to) that no matter what, a piece of cake or a chocolate or anything non 'healthy' is considered failure. You wake up telling yourself that you are going to eat clean and lose weight, but then eat one thing which isn't allowed on your plan and then think "oh Well, I've messed up so I may as well eat 5 bags of crisps.' I feel like sticking to a plan of rigid clean eating with no calorie counting is so much more difficult than eating a variety of foods you enjoy while counting. Even if you don't count you can still lose weight by just being conscious of portion sizes. Don't have a whole slice of cake.. share it. If you have a big lunch.. have a small dinner. Little things like that make a big difference and CICO deniers don't realise this because they are so fixated on the idea that calories have to come from a healthy source so one mistake means game over start again. Anyway this is just my personal opinion as I love food and refuse to live a life of plain eating and depravity ☺30 -
The 85 calorie difference is not a significant contributing factor in a 500 deficit given PERFECT measurements and EXACT calorie output per day.
That 85 calories difference could then be 5-10 lbs a year. Not enough to contribute failure to lose weight alone, but considering the average person puts on less weight than that in a year as they age (1-2 lbs), it isn't insignificant either on a typical 2500 calorie diet.
I'm only arguing the "all calories are created equal" is not true, not the CICO itself as a principle. I'm not arguing that people who tend to have a false idea of how many calories they eat often wrongly blame their metabolism or type of food they are eating. That was the other theme.5 -
I really have a hard time with stuff like that. Not slamming you personally, but I've been hearing it forever. "If you just don't have a tablespoon of butter on your toast each morning/have half the amount of sugar in your tea/have one less slice of bread/had one extra muffin/put an extra teaspoon of chocolate sauce on your ice cream... in year you'll have lost/gained X.
But here's the thing: I don't know of anybody who eats exactly the same number of calories and burns exactly the same number of calories day in, day out. I don't eat the identical menu every day and I'm sure I'm not alone in this. My macro split varies, along with my activity level.
So, some days, I have a bit more protein. Some days I have a calorie-dense dessert. I shoot for 2 hours of walking daily, but sometimes an hour and 55 minutes might be enough (not counting the number of times I had to run up and downstairs in my house as part of my 'normal' non-purposeful activity), some days, I walk three hours.
I think I'm going to just admit that having less butter on my toast is probably counteracted by the ten minutes less walking I did yesterday, but counter-counter-balanced by not having the extra cherry on my sundae, log my calories for the day and call it even!18 -
I apologize if this has been said already but I think a LOT of people deny it simply because they haven't truly tried it.
That was me. I spent almost SIX years losing 40 lb of the 100+ I wanted to lose through things like "eating sensibly" and "getting tons of exercise in". I was really dedicated. I thought "calorie counting" sounded like a quaint and silly thing. Then a lady I knew used MFP to lose 90 lb and I decided to give it a shot and I lost my own 90 lb in a year. Thus, I became a believer.
But if I hadn't REALLY tried it I'd still think it was bull, honestly...it sounds too good to be true.24 -
seltzermint555 wrote: »I apologize if this has been said already but I think a LOT of people deny it simply because they haven't truly tried it.
That was me. I spent almost SIX years losing 40 lb of the 100+ I wanted to lose through things like "eating sensibly" and "getting tons of exercise in". I was really dedicated. I thought "calorie counting" sounded like a quaint and silly thing. Then a lady I knew used MFP to lose 90 lb and I decided to give it a shot and I lost my own 90 lb in a year. Thus, I became a believer.
But if I hadn't REALLY tried it I'd still think it was bull, honestly...it sounds too good to be true.
You're confusing CICO with calorie counting.
Calorie counting is a method to lose weight. CICO is the physics behind weight loss, regardless of the method. So, while counting has worked for you (and me), it's just simply one choice as to how to lose weight. If you made another choice (Keto, clean etc.) and lost weight, CICO is still the underlying process.
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I've had this conversation a few times with people who are chronic yo-yo, fad dieters within my circle. They've seen how successful I've been with losing weight and always ask about it. At first they INSIST that they can't ever lose weight unless they cut out whole food groups, exercise excessively, create extreme deficits, or completely change their diets to foods they don't even like. Stuff that isn't sustainable. And they know it. I press them about it and eventually they concede that yep, it's that simple to just eat less.
It's wild how simple it is. But it's not fast enough for them. It doesn't take the weight off quickly enough. People demand instant gratification and a modest deficit over a long period of time doesn't provide that. The ability to stick to something for a long period of time and not give up when it isn't instantaneous requires trust. It requires trust in ourselves and trusting the process and having faith in a result that can't yet be seen. Humans generally don't do a great job with that. So I guess they'd rather yo-yo and keep regaining the weight they lose over and over again, and trying something different each time to see if it provides an instant result.17 -
estherdragonbat wrote: »log my calories for the day and call it even!
On subject of calorie counting. Logging calories into a tracker and counting them has been my primary method of weight loss for 18+ years. Long before cloud based Myfitnesspal came along you had software packages that did the same thing like Dietpower. As some one who yo-yo's in weight over many years, I realize that bad eating and or alcohol are the reasons I fall off the wagon. Paying attention to what I eat and Macros like Protein or Carbs makes it easier for me to stick to the deficit. Not tracking at all has the worst impact.2 -
Alot of people and industry chance losing alot of $ if we jump into a simple CICO bandwagon!7
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The diet/weight loss industry is a multi-billion dollar profit machine. You can't sell all those woo snake oil "supplements", books, videos, diet plans, etc. by simply saying "consume less calories than you expend". The truth isn't sexy or edgy and doesn't make True Believers feel like they've found the "secret".
It's all about the money.17 -
Alot of people and industry chance losing alot of $ if we jump into a simple CICO bandwagon!
All of the industry uses the principle of CICO to make $. For example, all the successful diet companies have different creative ways to make that deficit, mostly through less input. When you stop their products or plans, the bad habits often come back. As long as people can't stick to diets, I think the industry has nothing to worry about from calorie counting strategies.4 -
So many people just don't grasp the concept of calories in calories out. They tell me that not all calories are equal and that you have to eat healthy to lose weight. I used to argue with these people but lately I just smile and nod. It's worked for me.. I eat basically anything I want and have lost 5 kg. I feel so many more people would be successful at weight loss if they just grasped this simple scientific concept. I'm hoping to reach my ultimate weight and then write a blog list about how I did it and prove all the CICO deniers wrong
I mean this in the kindest possible way, speaking as a li'l ol' lady likely old enough to be your granny:
Your sweet naïveté about human nature is really touching.
((Hugs))!25 -
Alot of people and industry chance losing alot of $ if we jump into a simple CICO bandwagon!
All of the industry uses the principle of CICO to make $. For example, all the successful diet companies have different creative ways to make that deficit, mostly through less input. When you stop their products or plans, the bad habits often come back. As long as people can't stick to diets, I think the industry has nothing to worry about from calorie counting strategies.
But they don't tell them it's all CICO, that's the point. They all claim their gimmick is what makes you lose weight, whether it's "free foods" or belly-busting shakes, or macro percentages, or fat-burning food combos. None of them say - our program will get you into a calorie deficit if you don't want to do it on your own!11 -
Alot of people and industry chance losing alot of $ if we jump into a simple CICO bandwagon!
All of the industry uses the principle of CICO to make $. For example, all the successful diet companies have different creative ways to make that deficit, mostly through less input. When you stop their products or plans, the bad habits often come back. As long as people can't stick to diets, I think the industry has nothing to worry about from calorie counting strategies.
Explain how CICO relates to all the woo Dr. Oz type "supplements" such as apple cider vinegar, green coffee bean extract, raspberry ketones, hoodia, 'detox tea', and all the other so-called "fat burners" or "weight loss aids".
I'm not talking about what ridiculous pie-in-the-sky claims they make in their advertising hype, I'm talking about what actual relation they have to CICO.8 -
So many people just don't grasp the concept of calories in calories out. They tell me that not all calories are equal and that you have to eat healthy to lose weight. I used to argue with these people but lately I just smile and nod. It's worked for me.. I eat basically anything I want and have lost 5 kg. I feel so many more people would be successful at weight loss if they just grasped this simple scientific concept. I'm hoping to reach my ultimate weight and then write a blog list about how I did it and prove all the CICO deniers wrong
I mean this in the kindest possible way, speaking as a li'l ol' lady likely old enough to be your granny:
Your sweet naïveté about human nature is really touching.
((Hugs))!
Haha. Well, at least when people who know me ask me what my secret was, I can just "I know when to put the damn fork down"31 -
Alot of people and industry chance losing alot of $ if we jump into a simple CICO bandwagon!
All of the industry uses the principle of CICO to make $. For example, all the successful diet companies have different creative ways to make that deficit, mostly through less input. When you stop their products or plans, the bad habits often come back. As long as people can't stick to diets, I think the industry has nothing to worry about from calorie counting strategies.
Explain how CICO relates to all the woo Dr. Oz type "supplements" such as apple cider vinegar, green coffee bean extract, raspberry ketones, hoodia, 'detox tea', and all the other so-called "fat burners" or "weight loss aids".
I'm not talking about what ridiculous pie-in-the-sky claims they make in their advertising hype, I'm talking about what actual relation they have to CICO.
Umm.. because all these products come with something called fine print which basically states it will only work in conjunction with an energy controlled diet9 -
So many people just don't grasp the concept of calories in calories out. They tell me that not all calories are equal and that you have to eat healthy to lose weight. I used to argue with these people but lately I just smile and nod. It's worked for me.. I eat basically anything I want and have lost 5 kg. I feel so many more people would be successful at weight loss if they just grasped this simple scientific concept. I'm hoping to reach my ultimate weight and then write a blog list about how I did it and prove all the CICO deniers wrong
Yeah, this (bolded) is why there are CICO deniers. People who think their individual experience proves a larger point.
Your experience of success or failure with calorie counting proves nothing. The CICO deniers experience of success or failure on their diet (fad or otherwise) proves nothing. Experiential anecdotes are useless and only fuel for bias confirmation- nothing more. — OK they may have some good basis for one’s personal approach to weight loss - but they don’t inform on the next person’s experience or the wider principle.
I lost my weight much more successfully when I stopped rigidly counting calories every day. I moved to a 5:2 IF approach and started eyeballing caloric intake in the 5 days and limited the 2 days to 500 to 600 (rigidly portioned and weighed days). So yes, CICO is how I lost weight. But daily calorie counting was not sustainable for me.
But there is no larger takeaway from my experience than : for at least SOME people a weekly Intermittent approach MAY be easier and more sustainable. My experience of failure and success dieting isn’t PROOF of anything.
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Why? Because people are not taught in school that science is not made like in ancient Greece - through deduction. Also they have no idea what the difference is between a hypothesis and a theory. Also they can't be arsed to learn these. Therefore you shouldn't be arsed to explain or prove anything to anybody.9
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