When does cut end and bulk begin??
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MDC2957
Posts: 417 Member
I'm 37, 6'1" 185 lbs, had a Styku test at the gym on march 9th that said I was 22.4% body fat which I found hard to believe. (At that time I was 191.4 lbs, so I'm down 6.4 lbs) eating ~1900 calories per day. Question is, just how much weight should I lose before I begin to increase calories and bulk to add muscle?
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What is the mirror telling you? Do you have a flat mid-section? Are your abs showing? Vascularity? Definition?
I don't know that much about 3D body scanning/modeling to generate a body fat % reading but it seems that they use those measurements in the same way to the Navy body fat calculators use specific measurements. Not always accurate. I did find their site interesting, especially how the way they talk about DXA scans: http://www.styku.com/blog/the-3-biggest-myths-about-body-composition0 -
I would say when you are either very lean (10-12% bodyfat for a male), or towards the lower end range of BMI, or you just get tired of cutting and are no longer seeing physique progress..it could be time to start a bulk, or at least maintenance, depending on the scenario.3
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I would say when you are either very lean (10-12% bodyfat for a male), or towards the lower end range of BMI, or you just get tired of cutting and are no longer seeing physique progress..it could be time to start a bulk, or at least maintenance, depending on the scenario.
I understand what you're saying but I disagree to an extent. To the OP.. Do you want bigger muscles? Then go get em. You're not going to get them by cutting. In fact, building muscles first can make it easier to cut later. In my experience 10-12% for a male is no easy challenge, considerably more difficult than getting to 15%. you can spend your life trying to get there and never put on any muscle. I would say try to get below 20% and as close to 15% as you think. Use the mirror as your guide. But there's no reason to stop yourself from doing what you really want. Even at 20% bf, bigger arms and pecs will make you look and feel better. If you're uncomfortable with your bf%, then bulk at a slower rate. My 2 pennies.7 -
mutantspicy wrote: »I would say when you are either very lean (10-12% bodyfat for a male), or towards the lower end range of BMI, or you just get tired of cutting and are no longer seeing physique progress..it could be time to start a bulk, or at least maintenance, depending on the scenario.
I understand what you're saying but I disagree to an extent. To the OP.. Do you want bigger muscles? Then go get em. You're not going to get them by cutting. In fact, building muscles first can make it easier to cut later. In my experience 10-12% for a male is no easy challenge, considerably more difficult than getting to 15%. you can spend your life trying to get there and never put on any muscle. I would say try to get below 20% and as close to 15% as you think. Use the mirror as your guide. But there's no reason to stop yourself from doing what you really want. Even at 20% bf, bigger arms and pecs will make you look and feel better probably. If you're uncomfortable with your bf%, then bulk at a slower rate. My 2 pennies.
Well my advice was general. I did include it depends on the scenario. Keep in mind, the leaner you are to start the better nutrient partitioning (so more muscle vs fat gained) . If you start off with high bodyfat you will gain more fat unfortunately and cutting is going to be pretty dreadful. It also it is easier mentally to gain when you are lean vs already higher bodyfat. Again if OP was close to the bottom end of the BMI scale I wouldn't go by bodyfat in that case, that is lack of muscle and I would recommend bulking.3 -
mutantspicy wrote: »I would say when you are either very lean (10-12% bodyfat for a male), or towards the lower end range of BMI, or you just get tired of cutting and are no longer seeing physique progress..it could be time to start a bulk, or at least maintenance, depending on the scenario.
I understand what you're saying but I disagree to an extent. To the OP.. Do you want bigger muscles? Then go get em. You're not going to get them by cutting. In fact, building muscles first can make it easier to cut later. In my experience 10-12% for a male is no easy challenge, considerably more difficult than getting to 15%. you can spend your life trying to get there and never put on any muscle. I would say try to get below 20% and as close to 15% as you think. Use the mirror as your guide. But there's no reason to stop yourself from doing what you really want. Even at 20% bf, bigger arms and pecs will make you look and feel better. If you're uncomfortable with your bf%, then bulk at a slower rate. My 2 pennies.
The reasoning behind getting to a lower BF% before bulking has to do with partitioning ratio (p-ratio). Lyle explains it pretty well here: https://bodyrecomposition.com/muscle-gain/initial-body-fat-and-body-composition-changes.html/3 -
mutantspicy wrote: »I would say when you are either very lean (10-12% bodyfat for a male), or towards the lower end range of BMI, or you just get tired of cutting and are no longer seeing physique progress..it could be time to start a bulk, or at least maintenance, depending on the scenario.
I understand what you're saying but I disagree to an extent. To the OP.. Do you want bigger muscles? Then go get em. You're not going to get them by cutting. In fact, building muscles first can make it easier to cut later. In my experience 10-12% for a male is no easy challenge, considerably more difficult than getting to 15%. you can spend your life trying to get there and never put on any muscle. I would say try to get below 20% and as close to 15% as you think. Use the mirror as your guide. But there's no reason to stop yourself from doing what you really want. Even at 20% bf, bigger arms and pecs will make you look and feel better. If you're uncomfortable with your bf%, then bulk at a slower rate. My 2 pennies.
The reasoning behind getting to a lower BF% before bulking has to do with partitioning ratio (p-ratio). Lyle explains it pretty well here: https://bodyrecomposition.com/muscle-gain/initial-body-fat-and-body-composition-changes.html/
I'm simply saying 10%bf seems like a lofty goal for someone whose stats seem pretty slender already.0 -
mutantspicy wrote: »mutantspicy wrote: »I would say when you are either very lean (10-12% bodyfat for a male), or towards the lower end range of BMI, or you just get tired of cutting and are no longer seeing physique progress..it could be time to start a bulk, or at least maintenance, depending on the scenario.
I understand what you're saying but I disagree to an extent. To the OP.. Do you want bigger muscles? Then go get em. You're not going to get them by cutting. In fact, building muscles first can make it easier to cut later. In my experience 10-12% for a male is no easy challenge, considerably more difficult than getting to 15%. you can spend your life trying to get there and never put on any muscle. I would say try to get below 20% and as close to 15% as you think. Use the mirror as your guide. But there's no reason to stop yourself from doing what you really want. Even at 20% bf, bigger arms and pecs will make you look and feel better. If you're uncomfortable with your bf%, then bulk at a slower rate. My 2 pennies.
The reasoning behind getting to a lower BF% before bulking has to do with partitioning ratio (p-ratio). Lyle explains it pretty well here: https://bodyrecomposition.com/muscle-gain/initial-body-fat-and-body-composition-changes.html/
I'm simply saying 10%bf seems like a lofty goal for someone whose stats seem pretty slender already.
If we simply go by BMI at 6'1 he has a healthy range of 144 to 188 lbs ... which still puts him in the upper range and a lot of leeway before he would be considered underweight by medical standards.
Now, personally - I'm the same height and I'll end my cut in a couple of weeks at 195# which feels skeletal to me, but I'll probably be a lot closer to that impossible to reach 10% than the 22% calculation OP got based on that 3D scan - which surprisingly, seems to be more accurate than I had originally thought: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3087194/
Ultimately, it's up to the OP. For me personally, I'll probably not get this lean again - I prefer to bulk at around 15% and cut lower 20's. Not optimal but it's a mental thing for me - but even I wouldn't recommend a bulk at 22% unless the person was severely underweight to begin with.
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mutantspicy wrote: »mutantspicy wrote: »I would say when you are either very lean (10-12% bodyfat for a male), or towards the lower end range of BMI, or you just get tired of cutting and are no longer seeing physique progress..it could be time to start a bulk, or at least maintenance, depending on the scenario.
I understand what you're saying but I disagree to an extent. To the OP.. Do you want bigger muscles? Then go get em. You're not going to get them by cutting. In fact, building muscles first can make it easier to cut later. In my experience 10-12% for a male is no easy challenge, considerably more difficult than getting to 15%. you can spend your life trying to get there and never put on any muscle. I would say try to get below 20% and as close to 15% as you think. Use the mirror as your guide. But there's no reason to stop yourself from doing what you really want. Even at 20% bf, bigger arms and pecs will make you look and feel better. If you're uncomfortable with your bf%, then bulk at a slower rate. My 2 pennies.
The reasoning behind getting to a lower BF% before bulking has to do with partitioning ratio (p-ratio). Lyle explains it pretty well here: https://bodyrecomposition.com/muscle-gain/initial-body-fat-and-body-composition-changes.html/
I'm simply saying 10%bf seems like a lofty goal for someone whose stats seem pretty slender already.
And what everybody else is simply saying is that if he's truly anywhere around 22% BF, bulking would not be a good idea right now.
It sounds like aesthetics are part of his goals (by his statement "Don't have all the definition I want yet"). Bulking to 25-30% BF isn't in line with most people's aesthetic goals - unless their stated goal is to look like a sumo wrestler.
The answer to OP's question, as stated, is that the "cutoff point" for weight loss vs. bulking has more to do with bodyfat percentage than weight itself, for the reasons stated in Lyle's article linked above. Another good read would be his article on "General Philosophies of Muscle Mass Gain", in which he discusses bulking and cutting: https://bodyrecomposition.com/muscle-gain/general-philosophies-of-muscle-mass-gain.html/2 -
jseams1234 wrote: »mutantspicy wrote: »mutantspicy wrote: »I would say when you are either very lean (10-12% bodyfat for a male), or towards the lower end range of BMI, or you just get tired of cutting and are no longer seeing physique progress..it could be time to start a bulk, or at least maintenance, depending on the scenario.
I understand what you're saying but I disagree to an extent. To the OP.. Do you want bigger muscles? Then go get em. You're not going to get them by cutting. In fact, building muscles first can make it easier to cut later. In my experience 10-12% for a male is no easy challenge, considerably more difficult than getting to 15%. you can spend your life trying to get there and never put on any muscle. I would say try to get below 20% and as close to 15% as you think. Use the mirror as your guide. But there's no reason to stop yourself from doing what you really want. Even at 20% bf, bigger arms and pecs will make you look and feel better. If you're uncomfortable with your bf%, then bulk at a slower rate. My 2 pennies.
The reasoning behind getting to a lower BF% before bulking has to do with partitioning ratio (p-ratio). Lyle explains it pretty well here: https://bodyrecomposition.com/muscle-gain/initial-body-fat-and-body-composition-changes.html/
I'm simply saying 10%bf seems like a lofty goal for someone whose stats seem pretty slender already.
If we simply go by BMI at 6'1 he has a health range of 144 to 188 lbs ... which still puts him in the upper range and a lot of leeway before he would be considered underweight by medical standards.
Now, personally - I'm the same height and I'll end my cut in a couple of weeks at 195# which feels skeletal to me, but I'll probably be a lot closer to that impossible to reach 10% than the 22% calculation OP got based on that 3D scan - which surprisingly, seems to be more accurate than I had originally thought: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3087194/
Ultimately, it's up to the OP. For me personally, I'll probably not get this lean again - I prefer to bulk at around 15% and cut lower 20's. Not optimal but it's a mental thing for me - but even I wouldn't recommend a bulk at 22% unless the person was underweight to begin with.
Lol. I guess my opinion on BMI ranges is that they designed for stick men and not humans. I can't imagine someone at 6'1" 144 calling that healthy, even at 185 seems slender to me. So I'm in the same boat with you. I'd rather have muscle than be that skinny. My profile pic is me at 195, I aiming for 185 to start maintaining with a slight bulk cycle on lift days, based on past results that'll be around 12 to 15% for me. According to BMI I need to be at 165 to 175. Which seems like I would need to malnourish myself to do so, certainly would have lose more muscle mass than I would be comfortable doing. And like you from experience 9 to 10% bf was not comfortable. At least it wasn't for me, my joints my knuckles everything felt funny.1 -
[quote="AnvilHead;c-41836255And what everybody else is simply saying is that if he's truly anywhere around 22% BF, bulking would not be a good idea right now.
[/quote]
Well he also has lost 10lbs since the measurement. So I guess I'm assuming his current BF is lower than that. I liked the article you linked. Its good, but its also aimed at competitive body builders who have a significant muscle base to work with. But yeah, I wouldn't recommend bulking at 22% nor did I.0 -
It's all about personal preference. There is no time limit or whatever. I had been cutting for 3 months, but I am not as lean as I want to be. So I decided to take a couple weeks off to relax and eat however I want (within reason of course) around my son's birthday, kinda reset mentally. And now this week I am slowly tightening back up a bit, and next week going to hit it again for another couple months.
If I were built like you, I would aim to lose another 10 lbs at least, maybe 15, then reassess and likely slowly transition to a surplus. But that's just me.Ymmv.2 -
I still think its up to you. If you want to build up those pecs a bit, I would say go for it. OTOH you may consider recomping at maintenance for a while. That said, if your looking to get shredded, then you definitely need to drop more. I'm jealous of your lats, btw. I've always been barrel chested, so I don't have that natural V shape.0
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That picture really didn't come out good, I'm going to take another one later. I've been doing the assisted pullup machine and just discovered today that I can do three pull ups, so it has definitely helped. I want to look more like djeffreys though.
For comparison sake, you're 6'1", 185 lbs. I am 5'8", 180 lbs.1 -
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