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Calorie in calorie out method is outdated
Replies
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I just had a giggle imagining the conversation between Lemon and his wife if this silliness were to, in some alternate bizarro reality, happen:
"Honey, I'm going to leave you alone with the kids for a week so I can fly across the country to stay with some rando and watch him eat. Sorry about that little weekend getaway we were saving up for, I'm sure you understand why I need to spend that money for something as important as this."13 -
PaulChasinDreams wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »Thanks for putting numbers to it, @nutmegoreo
Seriously, it's like a caloric shell game, and Fung has all his followers scammed. It cracks me up.
LOL there seriously isn't any simpler math possible for you to have to figure out.... 7 days x one big meal. Come on a shell game! You guys really do grasp at any straw you can to try to prove your unproven points.
The irony. Oh, the irony. 12 -
GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »I just had a giggle imagining the conversation between Lemon and his wife if this silliness were to, in some alternate bizarro reality, happen:
"Honey, I'm going to leave you alone with the kids for a week so I can fly across the country to stay with some rando and watch him eat. Sorry about that thing little weekend getaway we were saving up for, I'm sure you understand why I need to spend that money for something as important as this."
Sure, but he can bring back some fish, so it's a wash there.7 -
PaulChasinDreams wrote: »I just had a wager here with a couple peers that you wouldn't take the offer or opportunity because this 100% confirms you are BIASED and this forum WILL NOT post truth that contradicts and proves that CICO is not the only way to lose fat.
What else do you want me to offer LOL Sure I will strap myself in a chair for a week and you can video tape it. There's your "metabolic chamber" LOL what a joke your excuses are.
No man.. It means I don't want to spend time away from my family to go hang out with some dude from the internet. It's ok if you don't want to prove data, we all know the truth.
ETA: Also, lets be clear. Going to your house proves nothing. At best, I can observe how active you are, what your overall stature is, and assess your eating habits. What it can't provide are the most important parts of the equation (metabolic rate and TEE). Nor does it allow me to assess any of your metabolic markers. These are all basic data points in a controlled study. Without it, you are just making an observation which is useless. You would get the same type of data if you stayed at my house, which means nothing.
If you want a controlled study, then you not only measure those things, but also have a control group. I would also control for calories and protein to ensure there wasn't any true difference driven by higher protein diets.
I'd love to see him spend a month in a metabolic ward. It would put an end to this fraudulent fairy tale once and for all.
If only someone did that already. And it would be even better if that study was funded by NuSI (Gary Taubes company) and conducted by a research scientist who was a prominent figure when it comes to the study of metabolism. And what would make it gold, is if there where two groups in a metabolic ward, where calories and protein were matched; and where EE, fat loss and metaboloc factors were monitored over a period of time. That would be the dream.
In all seriousness, i would like to think i am rather open minded and often change my opinion based on research (i.e., meal frequentcy doesn't rev your metabolism). But i guess when i question or correct it comea off as biased. Who knew.10 -
PaulChasinDreams wrote: »soufauxgirl wrote: »PaulChasinDreams wrote: »I just had a wager here with a couple peers that you wouldn't take the offer or opportunity because this 100% confirms you are BIASED and this forum WILL NOT post truth that contradicts and proves that CICO is not the only way to lose fat.
What else do you want me to offer LOL Sure I will strap myself in a chair for a week and you can video tape it. There's your "metabolic chamber" LOL what a joke your excuses are.
Show your research. Then I might just start believing you.
You are assuming that I care what you believe. I do not. I put the info out there for people to research it if they care to. I do however care about people who want to drop a lot of fat to get healthy. How anyone does it is totally their own prerogative. If people reached out for info/help/guidance than I would enjoy sharing what I have learned and experienced just like others have done with me.
So let's cut to the chase - what are you selling? Is it a book? A diet plan? A subscription-only website where you offer your "expertise", or what? Are you shilling for Fung or one of his lackeys? Or maybe another Turing complete bot experiment here, we've had a couple of those too.
You offer no evidence of anything other than your far-out anecdotal claims which defy all known science, you refuse to post any evidence or studies to corroborate them, and you're obviously a True Believer on a fully religious scale, who refuses to even consider any evidence to the contrary. You've been shot down over and over again, yet you keep coming back for more. Most often, those types have something to sell.
So what is it? What are you trying to peddle here?
There's been nothing but silence from that poster for a bit... Could it be that your mention of a Turing bot experiment did the trick?6 -
PaulChasinDreams wrote: »soufauxgirl wrote: »PaulChasinDreams wrote: »I just had a wager here with a couple peers that you wouldn't take the offer or opportunity because this 100% confirms you are BIASED and this forum WILL NOT post truth that contradicts and proves that CICO is not the only way to lose fat.
What else do you want me to offer LOL Sure I will strap myself in a chair for a week and you can video tape it. There's your "metabolic chamber" LOL what a joke your excuses are.
Show your research. Then I might just start believing you.
You are assuming that I care what you believe. I do not. I put the info out there for people to research it if they care to. I do however care about people who want to drop a lot of fat to get healthy. How anyone does it is totally their own prerogative. If people reached out for info/help/guidance than I would enjoy sharing what I have learned and experienced just like others have done with me.
Here's the thing. You proclaim that there is info out there for people to research. Could you at least post a link to start it off. I really want to know what you are going on about.3 -
Sorry, I apologize for, being passive aggressive in that response. It is hard not to be when 98% of other peoples comments are "passive aggressive in the group here so dedicated to try to squash any other information given about this topic. It's easy to get caught up in the back and forth. I would like to keep it civil.
98% of posters can't ALL be wrong...surely???
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Do you really think a member of a forum would take the time to go to your house and watch you eat to help you prove your fantasy theories? You must be kidding.PaulChasinDreams wrote: »I just had a wager here with a couple peers that you wouldn't take the offer or opportunity because this 100% confirms you are BIASED and this forum WILL NOT post truth that contradicts and proves that CICO is not the only way to lose fat.
What else do you want me to offer LOL Sure I will strap myself in a chair for a week and you can video tape it. There's your "metabolic chamber" LOL what a joke your excuses are.
If you have all this research why not post it?
You say anyone can look it up and see what you are talking about. Here's the thing though, I can also Google things like is Elvis still alive and is the Earth flat and see 1000's of websites that say yes. It doesn't mean that the Earth is flat or Elvis is still alive. It means that there's bogus info all over the place.
You seem to not understand what the word research means or maybe you know that you can't provide any reliable sources.
Should we blindly believe everything we read then? Or should we take the time and learn how to do proper research so we can weed out the woo?
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PaulChasinDreams wrote: »soufauxgirl wrote: »PaulChasinDreams wrote: »I just had a wager here with a couple peers that you wouldn't take the offer or opportunity because this 100% confirms you are BIASED and this forum WILL NOT post truth that contradicts and proves that CICO is not the only way to lose fat.
What else do you want me to offer LOL Sure I will strap myself in a chair for a week and you can video tape it. There's your "metabolic chamber" LOL what a joke your excuses are.
Show your research. Then I might just start believing you.
You are assuming that I care what you believe. I do not. I put the info out there for people to research it if they care to. I do however care about people who want to drop a lot of fat to get healthy. How anyone does it is totally their own prerogative. If people reached out for info/help/guidance than I would enjoy sharing what I have learned and experienced just like others have done with me.
Ok have sent a private message to you. Looking forward to your response thanks
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If I said something like I have the bestest weight loss magic plan ever. I rub orange peels on my body twice a day while wearing a Batman cape while singing Tupac songs.
You can Google it and find lots of research on my theory or come to my house and watch me do it to prove that it's a superior method.
Does this sound plausible? Wouldn't you want to know where I got the information from or why I felt like rubbing orange peels on my skin while wearing a cape and singing Tupac would cause weight loss?
Surely you can't expect people to just show up at your house to prove some wild theory.
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Disclaimer: proceed at your own risk.100_PROOF_ wrote: »I rub orange peels on my body twice a day while wearing a Batman cape while singing Tupac songs.
You can Google it
Don't underestimate the power of Rule 34
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GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »I just had a giggle imagining the conversation between Lemon and his wife if this silliness were to, in some alternate bizarro reality, happen:
"Honey, I'm going to leave you alone with the kids for a week so I can fly across the country to stay with some rando and watch him eat. Sorry about that little weekend getaway we were saving up for, I'm sure you understand why I need to spend that money for something as important as this."
Well don’t forget there’s some sort of a bet on the table so if Lemon is right then he gets to bring home some cash money for his little citric family7 -
[/url]PaulChasinDreams wrote: »PaulChasinDreams wrote: »Same small group of people here on the forum who are in denial and obviously always will be. They have not ever done this and have no first hand knowledge of it. They read articles/studies paid for and sponsored by groups hired or instructed by the food and drug lobby. Research that too. Tons of info on that too.
Hopefully people looking to lose weight will do their own research (easy to find all the info I posted). Like I said; contact actual people doing it as a a way of living. They are first hand real time information gateways. Not ink on a pad.
I would love to read some of your research because I haven't found anything to support your claims. In fact, what you say it completely contrary to the thousands of metabolic ward studies and information coming from the NIH, but also information also coming from the most prominent researchers in the field for intermittent fasting and ketogenic diets.
And I know your will ignore this, like my previous posts, but the information I have posted is coming from the NIH, National Institute of Diabetes and Digestive and Kidney Diseases (KDH).
You are a forum moderator here so I would hope you are truly an unbiased person. If you are and you want to get to the 100% bottom of this and have 100% proof of what I say I will offer you this: I will tell you where I live. I will welcome you with open arms into my home. We have a farm on acerage. We have guest rooms. You are welcome to stay with us for a week (Do it on your holiday time. I will also take you fishing on the west coast to make it worth your holiday time) I am a married father of two teen girls. We are a tight family with good values. You can then watch, weigh, measure every gram of food I eat and calorie I burn. I would even go so far as to not do any exercise during the week so there can be no confusion of calories burned. The conditions would be: 1. I will eat a 200 calorie per day surplus in calories. 2. I will eat keto meals. 3. I will fast 23 to 23.5 hrs between meals. 4. No matter what the results may be you as a moderator guarantee to post a permanent sticky thread here on the forum in the debate section of the results of this first hand supervised study. 5. The owner of this community will openly agree to the terms of this agreement and will start a sticky describing what we are going to do and will update the sticky thread as discussed with the way the study is done and it's findings.
I don't know how else I could possibly make it easier for you to see first hand what I and 10's of thousands of other people around the world are doing. You will clearly see that you DO NOT have to be in a calorie deficit if you combine intermittent fasting at high ratio hours between meals with keto.
*edit..incorrectly typed "surplus" instead of "deficit" in last paragraph. Have corrected it.
@PaulChasinDreams you may be trying to push a log chain uphill.
While CICO is the current fad conversation piece it does apply to closed loop systems like a steam engine but humans are an open loop system when it comes to energy. Just ignore the CICO conversations because they are circular in nature in my person view if you are interested in better health and just stick with keto or whatever is working for you. As was posted I think yesterday CICO is a 'concept' that can vary from person to person and that is because humans are not a closed loop energy wise. No one posting here even knows their own CICO so the concept is of little value to human health because it can not be measured in any functional way. I compute my CICO after the fact by weighing on bathroom scales daily. For the past 2-3 years I have been at 195 +/- 5 pounds eating daily until I am stuffed and my calorie intake most days is in the 2000-3000 range. I have no way to estimate my calorie burn since I do not work out, bike, etc.
Again talking CICO which no one here has bother to offer proof of the concept because it does not exist and taking about keto is kind of like mixing oil and water so to speak.
Keto has been a way of eating in some cultures for like 40,000 years and its usage has been documented for the past 100 years. While you have hacked out a system where you do not have to be in a calorie deficit to lose weight but do not plan to find posters that will even listen to your plan.
The science behind the LCHF Way Of Eating is well proven in a court of law by scientist and lawyers. Look at some of the evidence used in this trial. The link below will give you points to start your Google searching on the evidence presented during the long trial.
https://huffingtonpost.co.za/2017/04/21/tim-noakes-found-not-guilty-of-misconduct-over-advising-mother-t_a_22049207/
Actually I heard the term CICO mentioned in the courtroom when I watched a movie that covered some of this court case above. It is a very low key movie that I did not find over the top in claims. Just as here on MFP forums there is no really agreement among the scientist when it comes to the BEST way to eat. Keto just happens to be gaining on the others currently when it comes to managing health issues with diet.
u123movies.com/watch/bdr33QvN-the-magic-pill.html
Keep up your drive and refine your resources to better make your case in environments that may even seen hostile from time to time. I believe in Free Will where it is a real thing or not so that means anyone can eat anyway they wish in my view. At 67 having been off of foods containing added sugar and or any form of any grain since Oct 2014 I never plan to go back to my old way of eating because my health and health markers are so improved and still improving.
The article below has some of the science that makes Keto way of eating so successful for some.
https://medium.com/the-mission/how-to-stop-counting-calories-and-lose-weight-with-ketosis-426034951341
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GaleHawkins wrote: »...Again talking CICO which no one here has bother to offer proof of the concept because it does not exist...
The fact that you could make such a statement is proof positive that you're only here to listen to yourself talk and are completely oblivious to the conversations going on around you.
You're one step above offering absolutely nothing for evidence of your scattered, rambling thoughts - but your "offerings" are invariably nothing more than spurious, poorly-vetted blogs, hackneyed propaganda sites and/or cherry-picked pseudoscience. As evidenced yet again in your post above.
You're allegedly an educated man. Although your field of education is claimed to be optometry (which you never actually practiced), not medicine or nutrition, I'd think you at least learned something along the way about what "peer-reviewed research" is, and how to read/interpret it, no? "Meta analyses" ring a bell at all, maybe? How to weight evidence and/or vet sources, leading to the ability to weigh randomized clinical trials against articles and op-ed pieces from The Guardian website in terms of credibility?
CICO is not a "concept". It is a fact. A physical law. You're entitled to your own opinions, but you're not entitled to your own facts.14 -
soufauxgirl wrote: »PaulChasinDreams wrote: »soufauxgirl wrote: »PaulChasinDreams wrote: »I just had a wager here with a couple peers that you wouldn't take the offer or opportunity because this 100% confirms you are BIASED and this forum WILL NOT post truth that contradicts and proves that CICO is not the only way to lose fat.
What else do you want me to offer LOL Sure I will strap myself in a chair for a week and you can video tape it. There's your "metabolic chamber" LOL what a joke your excuses are.
Show your research. Then I might just start believing you.
You are assuming that I care what you believe. I do not. I put the info out there for people to research it if they care to. I do however care about people who want to drop a lot of fat to get healthy. How anyone does it is totally their own prerogative. If people reached out for info/help/guidance than I would enjoy sharing what I have learned and experienced just like others have done with me.
Ok have sent a private message to you. Looking forward to your response thanks
Hi soufauxgirl. I don't see a message from you in my in box. Please re send.2 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »[/url]PaulChasinDreams wrote: »PaulChasinDreams wrote: »Same small group of people here on the forum who are in denial and obviously always will be. They have not ever done this and have no first hand knowledge of it. They read articles/studies paid for and sponsored by groups hired or instructed by the food and drug lobby. Research that too. Tons of info on that too.
Hopefully people looking to lose weight will do their own research (easy to find all the info I posted). Like I said; contact actual people doing it as a a way of living. They are first hand real time information gateways. Not ink on a pad.
I would love to read some of your research because I haven't found anything to support your claims. In fact, what you say it completely contrary to the thousands of metabolic ward studies and information coming from the NIH, but also information also coming from the most prominent researchers in the field for intermittent fasting and ketogenic diets.
And I know your will ignore this, like my previous posts, but the information I have posted is coming from the NIH, National Institute of Diabetes and Digestive and Kidney Diseases (KDH).
You are a forum moderator here so I would hope you are truly an unbiased person. If you are and you want to get to the 100% bottom of this and have 100% proof of what I say I will offer you this: I will tell you where I live. I will welcome you with open arms into my home. We have a farm on acerage. We have guest rooms. You are welcome to stay with us for a week (Do it on your holiday time. I will also take you fishing on the west coast to make it worth your holiday time) I am a married father of two teen girls. We are a tight family with good values. You can then watch, weigh, measure every gram of food I eat and calorie I burn. I would even go so far as to not do any exercise during the week so there can be no confusion of calories burned. The conditions would be: 1. I will eat a 200 calorie per day surplus in calories. 2. I will eat keto meals. 3. I will fast 23 to 23.5 hrs between meals. 4. No matter what the results may be you as a moderator guarantee to post a permanent sticky thread here on the forum in the debate section of the results of this first hand supervised study. 5. The owner of this community will openly agree to the terms of this agreement and will start a sticky describing what we are going to do and will update the sticky thread as discussed with the way the study is done and it's findings.
I don't know how else I could possibly make it easier for you to see first hand what I and 10's of thousands of other people around the world are doing. You will clearly see that you DO NOT have to be in a calorie deficit if you combine intermittent fasting at high ratio hours between meals with keto.
*edit..incorrectly typed "surplus" instead of "deficit" in last paragraph. Have corrected it.
@PaulChasinDreams you may be trying to push a log chain uphill.
While CICO is the current fad conversation piece it does apply to closed loop systems like a steam engine but humans are an open loop system when it comes to energy. Just ignore the CICO conversations because they are circular in nature in my person view if you are interested in better health and just stick with keto or whatever is working for you. As was posted I think yesterday CICO is a 'concept' that can vary from person to person and that is because humans are not a closed loop energy wise. No one posting here even knows their own CICO so the concept is of little value to human health because it can not be measured in any functional way. I compute my CICO after the fact by weighing on bathroom scales daily. For the past 2-3 years I have been at 195 +/- 5 pounds eating daily until I am stuffed and my calorie intake most days is in the 2000-3000 range. I have no way to estimate my calorie burn since I do not work out, bike, etc.
Again talking CICO which no one here has bother to offer proof of the concept because it does not exist and taking about keto is kind of like mixing oil and water so to speak.
Keto has been a way of eating in some cultures for like 40,000 years and its usage has been documented for the past 100 years. While you have hacked out a system where you do not have to be in a calorie deficit to lose weight but do not plan to find posters that will even listen to your plan.
The science behind the LCHF Way Of Eating is well proven in a court of law by scientist and lawyers. Look at some of the evidence used in this trial. The link below will give you points to start your Google searching on the evidence presented during the long trial.
https://huffingtonpost.co.za/2017/04/21/tim-noakes-found-not-guilty-of-misconduct-over-advising-mother-t_a_22049207/
Actually I heard the term CICO mentioned in the courtroom when I watched a movie that covered some of this court case above. It is a very low key movie that I did not find over the top in claims. Just as here on MFP forums there is no really agreement among the scientist when it comes to the BEST way to eat. Keto just happens to be gaining on the others currently when it comes to managing health issues with diet.
u123movies.com/watch/bdr33QvN-the-magic-pill.html
Keep up your drive and refine your resources to better make your case in environments that may even seen hostile from time to time. I believe in Free Will where it is a real thing or not so that means anyone can eat anyway they wish in my view. At 67 having been off of foods containing added sugar and or any form of any grain since Oct 2014 I never plan to go back to my old way of eating because my health and health markers are so improved and still improving.
The article below has some of the science that makes Keto way of eating so successful for some.
https://medium.com/the-mission/how-to-stop-counting-calories-and-lose-weight-with-ketosis-426034951341
Hi Gale. I appreciate the time you take on this forum to post your views and information and researching you have done all the while being immaturely harassed by this group of members on this forum constantly. And I appreciate the time you took to post your reply here to me as well.
It is the loss to the ones with closed minds who will never learn new things or create new ways of doing things. I suggest to people like this they take a step back for a moment and look back in history. Not many new inventions, new discoveries, new science, new knowledge was gained by doing the status quo and thinking like the "old masses". "Sheeple" are what we call them in the group of people I am involved with living this way. I honestly do feel sad for anyone who refuses to read, research and learn. There is so much info out there for people who truly seek it. Not just sitting at a computer all day replying to 100 posts a day on a forum "pretending" that they know it all about every subject posted. Not my kind of lifestyle lol. I thought that kind of thing was for teenagers on social media lol.
I will also never go back to eating the way I did before. I have never felt better and all my health markers have improved across the board also. My parents taught me at a very young age to give back to those that give you help, love, and understanding in life and to others who are looking for those same kinds of things. These are the reasons I share my weight loss success information here on the forum. So that if it can help even one person struggling with weight loss it is all worth the effort and the debate. I have zero to gain from it. Zero things to sell. My only motivation is to help anyone looking to listen and open their minds.
I spend very little time looking at these CICO threads cause they are old news and are mostly filled with bickering and nonsense. However if I happen to read a post and it mentions something I have first hand experience with like IF and Keto then at times I feel like it's worth it to respond. My most valued time spent on this forum is looking at other threads like peoples success stories/pictures and motivational posts helping other members. Much less drama, more peacefulness and kindness going on there from all kinds of helpful, caring people. And the posts are refreshing, positive and puts smiles on peoples faces. Pretty easy to see why all those members here stay away from these useless CICO threads
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Hey Paul, can you tell me again why exactly you can't show any hard evidence of your claims above "it's totally happening to me!"?10
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GaleHawkins wrote: »...Again talking CICO which no one here has bother to offer proof of the concept because it does not exist...
Wait a minute. Are you Shouty Guy's dad?
It all makes sense now.
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@PaulChasinDreams, I have experience doing IF and keto, together and at separate times. Doing one or the other or both made not one bit of difference to my ability to lose weight. What did I do wrong?7
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PaulChasinDreams wrote: »soufauxgirl wrote: »PaulChasinDreams wrote: »soufauxgirl wrote: »PaulChasinDreams wrote: »I just had a wager here with a couple peers that you wouldn't take the offer or opportunity because this 100% confirms you are BIASED and this forum WILL NOT post truth that contradicts and proves that CICO is not the only way to lose fat.
What else do you want me to offer LOL Sure I will strap myself in a chair for a week and you can video tape it. There's your "metabolic chamber" LOL what a joke your excuses are.
Show your research. Then I might just start believing you.
You are assuming that I care what you believe. I do not. I put the info out there for people to research it if they care to. I do however care about people who want to drop a lot of fat to get healthy. How anyone does it is totally their own prerogative. If people reached out for info/help/guidance than I would enjoy sharing what I have learned and experienced just like others have done with me.
Ok have sent a private message to you. Looking forward to your response thanks
Hi soufauxgirl. I don't see a message from you in my in box. Please re send.
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rheddmobile wrote: »PaulChasinDreams wrote: »PaulChasinDreams wrote: »Same small group of people here on the forum who are in denial and obviously always will be. They have not ever done this and have no first hand knowledge of it. They read articles/studies paid for and sponsored by groups hired or instructed by the food and drug lobby. Research that too. Tons of info on that too.
Hopefully people looking to lose weight will do their own research (easy to find all the info I posted). Like I said; contact actual people doing it as a a way of living. They are first hand real time information gateways. Not ink on a pad.
I would love to read some of your research because I haven't found anything to support your claims. In fact, what you say it completely contrary to the thousands of metabolic ward studies and information coming from the NIH, but also information also coming from the most prominent researchers in the field for intermittent fasting and ketogenic diets.
And I know your will ignore this, like my previous posts, but the information I have posted is coming from the NIH, National Institute of Diabetes and Digestive and Kidney Diseases (KDH).
You are a forum moderator here so I would hope you are truly an unbiased person. If you are and you want to get to the 100% bottom of this and have 100% proof of what I say I will offer you this: I will tell you where I live. I will welcome you with open arms into my home. We have a farm on acerage. We have guest rooms. You are welcome to stay with us for a week (Do it on your holiday time. I will also take you fishing on the west coast to make it worth your holiday time) I am a married father of two teen girls. We are a tight family with good values. You can then watch, weigh, measure every gram of food I eat and calorie I burn. I would even go so far as to not do any exercise during the week so there can be no confusion of calories burned. The conditions would be: 1. I will eat a 200 calorie per day surplus in calories. 2. I will eat keto meals. 3. I will fast 23 to 23.5 hrs between meals. 4. No matter what the results may be you as a moderator guarantee to post a permanent sticky thread here on the forum in the debate section of the results of this first hand supervised study. 5. The owner of this community will openly agree to the terms of this agreement and will start a sticky describing what we are going to do and will update the sticky thread as discussed with the way the study is done and it's findings.
I don't know how else I could possibly make it easier for you to see first hand what I and 10's of thousands of other people around the world are doing. You will clearly see that you DO NOT have to be in a calorie deficit if you combine intermittent fasting at high ratio hours between meals with keto.
*edit..incorrectly typed "surplus" instead of "deficit" in last paragraph. Have corrected it.
You don't seem to understand how science works. What you describe is one half of a science experiment. The other half would be you eating the same number of calories at regular intervals. No one doubts you are losing weight as claimed, just that you are losing weight as claimed fasting intermittently and not while eating the same exact number of calories over the same period of time and activity while not fasting.
Even then, it would be difficult to control for non exercise activity such as fidgeting. If you personally feel better when fasting and are thus more active, you will burn more calories.
Really it's more like 10% of an experiment. 1 week and 200 calories a day surplus isn't remotely close to long enough to eliminate noise from normal fluctuations. 6 months and 500 calories a day. With a reasonable sample group and a control group or 2. Maybe.6 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »[/url]PaulChasinDreams wrote: »PaulChasinDreams wrote: »Same small group of people here on the forum who are in denial and obviously always will be. They have not ever done this and have no first hand knowledge of it. They read articles/studies paid for and sponsored by groups hired or instructed by the food and drug lobby. Research that too. Tons of info on that too.
Hopefully people looking to lose weight will do their own research (easy to find all the info I posted). Like I said; contact actual people doing it as a a way of living. They are first hand real time information gateways. Not ink on a pad.
I would love to read some of your research because I haven't found anything to support your claims. In fact, what you say it completely contrary to the thousands of metabolic ward studies and information coming from the NIH, but also information also coming from the most prominent researchers in the field for intermittent fasting and ketogenic diets.
And I know your will ignore this, like my previous posts, but the information I have posted is coming from the NIH, National Institute of Diabetes and Digestive and Kidney Diseases (KDH).
You are a forum moderator here so I would hope you are truly an unbiased person. If you are and you want to get to the 100% bottom of this and have 100% proof of what I say I will offer you this: I will tell you where I live. I will welcome you with open arms into my home. We have a farm on acerage. We have guest rooms. You are welcome to stay with us for a week (Do it on your holiday time. I will also take you fishing on the west coast to make it worth your holiday time) I am a married father of two teen girls. We are a tight family with good values. You can then watch, weigh, measure every gram of food I eat and calorie I burn. I would even go so far as to not do any exercise during the week so there can be no confusion of calories burned. The conditions would be: 1. I will eat a 200 calorie per day surplus in calories. 2. I will eat keto meals. 3. I will fast 23 to 23.5 hrs between meals. 4. No matter what the results may be you as a moderator guarantee to post a permanent sticky thread here on the forum in the debate section of the results of this first hand supervised study. 5. The owner of this community will openly agree to the terms of this agreement and will start a sticky describing what we are going to do and will update the sticky thread as discussed with the way the study is done and it's findings.
I don't know how else I could possibly make it easier for you to see first hand what I and 10's of thousands of other people around the world are doing. You will clearly see that you DO NOT have to be in a calorie deficit if you combine intermittent fasting at high ratio hours between meals with keto.
*edit..incorrectly typed "surplus" instead of "deficit" in last paragraph. Have corrected it.
@PaulChasinDreams you may be trying to push a log chain uphill.
While CICO is the current fad conversation piece it does apply to closed loop systems like a steam engine but humans are an open loop system when it comes to energy. Just ignore the CICO conversations because they are circular in nature in my person view if you are interested in better health and just stick with keto or whatever is working for you. As was posted I think yesterday CICO is a 'concept' that can vary from person to person and that is because humans are not a closed loop energy wise. No one posting here even knows their own CICO so the concept is of little value to human health because it can not be measured in any functional way. I compute my CICO after the fact by weighing on bathroom scales daily. For the past 2-3 years I have been at 195 +/- 5 pounds eating daily until I am stuffed and my calorie intake most days is in the 2000-3000 range. I have no way to estimate my calorie burn since I do not work out, bike, etc.
Again talking CICO which no one here has bother to offer proof of the concept because it does not exist and taking about keto is kind of like mixing oil and water so to speak.
Keto has been a way of eating in some cultures for like 40,000 years and its usage has been documented for the past 100 years. While you have hacked out a system where you do not have to be in a calorie deficit to lose weight but do not plan to find posters that will even listen to your plan.
The science behind the LCHF Way Of Eating is well proven in a court of law by scientist and lawyers. Look at some of the evidence used in this trial. The link below will give you points to start your Google searching on the evidence presented during the long trial.
https://huffingtonpost.co.za/2017/04/21/tim-noakes-found-not-guilty-of-misconduct-over-advising-mother-t_a_22049207/
Actually I heard the term CICO mentioned in the courtroom when I watched a movie that covered some of this court case above. It is a very low key movie that I did not find over the top in claims. Just as here on MFP forums there is no really agreement among the scientist when it comes to the BEST way to eat. Keto just happens to be gaining on the others currently when it comes to managing health issues with diet.
u123movies.com/watch/bdr33QvN-the-magic-pill.html
Keep up your drive and refine your resources to better make your case in environments that may even seen hostile from time to time. I believe in Free Will where it is a real thing or not so that means anyone can eat anyway they wish in my view. At 67 having been off of foods containing added sugar and or any form of any grain since Oct 2014 I never plan to go back to my old way of eating because my health and health markers are so improved and still improving.
The article below has some of the science that makes Keto way of eating so successful for some.
https://medium.com/the-mission/how-to-stop-counting-calories-and-lose-weight-with-ketosis-426034951341
The fact that you state the bold, demonstrates the fact that you know CICO applies. Your weight has been stable and you consistently know your calories. So...
The fact that I know I maintain at 3000 demonstrates further demonstrates we all understand energy balance. And just in case you want to ignore science once again, here is the link from one of the leading researchers in metabolism: http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/95/4/989
^That is science. Actual science. If you want, we can even talk more science and I can link Kevin Halls ketogenic studies.
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