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Anyone cutting after a bulk?

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  • DavidsdottirDavidsdottir Member Posts: 1,295 Member Member Posts: 1,295 Member
    Told you, @sardelsa !!!! Recomp, baby LOL
  • edickson76edickson76 Member Posts: 107 Member Member Posts: 107 Member
    pbryd wrote: »
    @edickson76

    Regarding Mike's not dropping volume in favour of intensity.

    I'm assuming it depends on how much volume you were doing prior to the cut.

    His MRV guidelines are higher than 20 sets per week in some cases, so yeah you'll have to drop some volume.

    But if you're just plodding along at MEV trying to get in shape for the summer, then you'd want to try and keep the volume the same.

    Apologies to everyone other than @sardelsa who might be sick of this discussion. For anyone who is still following along but wondering what MRV and MEV are...MRV is maximum recoverable volume and MEV is minimum effective volume. There is a good discussion of these concepts in "The Volume Roundtable" episode on Jeff Nippard's channel. Mike argues for MRV, Eric argues for a version of MEV. Layne Norton and Greg Nuckols are also on there.

    Fully agree that volume must drop if one is pursuing MRV. During a cut, recovery diminishes; so recoverable volume would necessarily drop.

    Not sure on MEV. That's minimum volume to grow muscles. If I'm not trying to grow muscles in a cut, do I necessarily need the same volume? Or do I just need the same intensity?

    I found Lyle's articles on this topic (Part 1: https://bodyrecomposition.com/training/weight-training-for-fat-loss-part-1.html/ ; Part 2: https://bodyrecomposition.com/training/weight-training-for-fat-loss-part-2.html/ ). Interestingly, his argument is
    I’ll simply say here that the high tension stimulus that builds muscle is the exact same high tension stimulus that will maintain muscle mass when you’re dieting.
    That is the same argument I see now on the "maintain volume" argument. The difference I see; however, is that the intensity argument, when in a cut, has some studies backing it up. Those same studies counsel against a volume approach when in a cut.

    This is leading me to think that volume is the primary driver of hypertrophy, but for maintaining muscle intensity is the primary driver. I confess to not being fully confident. When Eric, Mike, and Menno all align against you, it gives one pause. Thanks again, @pbyrd for posting that and discussing.
  • jseams1234jseams1234 Member Posts: 1,193 Member Member Posts: 1,193 Member
    @edickson76 I find the discussion very interesting. However, having done both approaches (high volume low intensity) and more recently (high intensity, lowered volume and frequency) for me there is no debate. I lost significant strength with the volume approach and I kept 100% of my strength with Lyle's approach. In the video above it's mentioned at one point that the weight on the bar is great metric to measure growth. Wouldn't that also make it a great metric to measure loss? I've always had to spend a lot of time recovering my lifts with the volume approach and this time around I've been able to pick up exactly where I left off and in some cases I've busted through a couple of plateaus. So, for me at least, there really is no debate. I'll never approach a cut with high volume and low intensity again.

    I also wonder if longer more aggressive cuts react less favorably to the volume approach as opposed to shorter "mini-cuts". I've never been a proponent of short frequent cuts as I personally think they involve a lot of wheel spinning for most people.
  • sardelsasardelsa Member Posts: 9,834 Member Member Posts: 9,834 Member
    bioklutz wrote: »
    sardelsa wrote: »
    Really interesting discussion about volume vs intensity. I honestly stick to what I do during a bulk but just try to keep up progression in some way, either maintaining weight on the bar or volume. It does depend on the lift, which bodypart and where I am in my program cycle. My program is always changing though so I typically don't have an issue with it.

    My cut is going... now that the water weight/bloat is gone I can see a true view of things and I keep flip flopping thinking I may want to transition to a hair below maintenance or recomp but then ahh I am so impatient. Good news is that if I am only losing 0.25lb per week or maintaining some weeks, I am good with that since I am not in a rush to cut down. So basically, as long as I am not gaining, I think I will be good.

    I also keep changing my mind as well! I was thinking to swap to maintenance for a tiny bit. Then I dropped some hormone weight and a little extra it is pretty motivating! So far this week compliance has been a breeze. I am pretty sure next week I will flip back!

    @bioklutz this is me... one day I am like.. ooo recomp.. the next day it's like.. oh man.. it's gonna be like watching plate tectonics, forget it :s

    @Davidsdottir ...hahaha :p I am still borderline .. I don't want to fully maintain but just lose very slowly. For now at least!
  • bioklutzbioklutz Member Posts: 1,365 Member Member Posts: 1,365 Member
    @jseams1234 I agree. I worked really hard to get my lift numbers up! My current workout has me doing 3 sets of 8. I always try to get a small increase in weight on the bar and do all 8 reps but I often don't make it on some of my lifts. For example, it took me 4 weeks to add a pound to overhead press and to get all 8 reps (very victorious morning!). I cringe to think of what some of my lifts would be if I favoured volume.
  • jseams1234jseams1234 Member Posts: 1,193 Member Member Posts: 1,193 Member
    bioklutz wrote: »
    @jseams1234 I agree. I worked really hard to get my lift numbers up! My current workout has me doing 3 sets of 8. I always try to get a small increase in weight on the bar and do all 8 reps but I often don't make it on some of my lifts. For example, it took me 4 weeks to add a pound to overhead press and to get all 8 reps (very victorious morning!). I cringe to think of what some of my lifts would be if I favoured volume.

    Yeah, it's definitely a balancing act. I usually do 4 sets of 8-10 on most lifts during hypertrophy phase and 5 reps x 5 sets for the power days. After a month or so on my cut there was no way in heck I was getting that number of sets without killing myself for the next workout. I just dropped a complete set. Then a bit later I got rid of the hypertrophy days and just did power days with 4 sets.... then dropped it to 3 sets. Final stages of the cut I dropped a complete day out of rotation and all isolation/accessory. I never dropped the weight....

    The only downside, I think I may have mentioned before, is my joints got really really "crunchy" and painful. Healing up now and almost back to normal. :)
  • LiftHeavyThings27105LiftHeavyThings27105 Member Posts: 2,104 Member Member Posts: 2,104 Member
    bioklutz wrote: »
    @jseams1234 I agree. I worked really hard to get my lift numbers up! My current workout has me doing 3 sets of 8. I always try to get a small increase in weight on the bar and do all 8 reps but I often don't make it on some of my lifts. For example, it took me 4 weeks to add a pound to overhead press and to get all 8 reps (very victorious morning!). I cringe to think of what some of my lifts would be if I favoured volume.

    Progressive Overload is a wonderful thing. Keep in mind that there are lots and lots of ways to accomplish that:
    1. put more weight on the bar
    2. do more reps
    3. do more sets
    4. take a shorter rest period between each set

    I tend to overdo things. I would be killing it, doing 5x5 or 8x3 or 6x4 or 4x6 (I liked to swap things up) at 85% of 1RM and three or four months later I would hurt myself. Too high intensity for too long. No deload week just power through. Well, don't be a fool like I was.....

    I totally get the excitement of chasing numbers. I was doing that. Set the goal and reach it. Well, I got a little too caught up in that chase. It is really easy to get lost in that chase.

    Anyway, sounds like everyone has a great understanding of themselves. We have only one body in this lifetime....it is a great thing to listen to it! :-)
  • sardelsasardelsa Member Posts: 9,834 Member Member Posts: 9,834 Member
    After bulking and getting used to being able to eat so much it is SOOO hard to cut back. I am having so much trouble even going back to maintenance. I got so used to my new "routine" of food and now am struggling to cut back. Next time I will bulk by adding something easy to take away that I won't miss. I did not foresee the cut being so hard. Where is my willpower?! lol

    Yup... That was my biggest fear coming out of this bulk. Let's just say my eating got really grimy by the end :# . Also kind of miss not having to think before eating something. What I don't miss is the constant bloated full feeling.

    I experiment and try to find low calorie options that still taste great. For example I am really into soups so I will add shrimp or chicken, zucchini noodles, veggies and spices to broth and it takes a lot of time to eat and tastes amazing. Also taco bowls with lots of veggies and lettuce. My food has to taste good so it doesn't feel like I am depriving myself.
  • dozenmonkeyzdozenmonkeyz Member Posts: 150 Member Member Posts: 150 Member
    Yesterday kicked off week 4 of rfl cut and progress has slowed a bit:
    Starting Weight - 216lbs
    End of week 1 - 208lbs
    End of week 2 - 206
    End of week 3 - 203
    This passed weekend was a bit rough and I fell off the program Friday by having a few drinks. Was able to mostly keep my eating under control but the booze calories were heavier than I wanted. Also, during my refeed at a family party on Sunday, I ate too many desserts with high fat and sugar. But, all my free time was filled with heavy yard work so I'm not stressing it much. Back to the routine as of yesterday and will end the run this coming Sunday. After that, I'll spend a week building up to maintenance followed by two weeks vacation at maintenance (as much as possible) then I'll reassess whether to run a few more weeks of rfl or a more traditional cut.
  • dozenmonkeyzdozenmonkeyz Member Posts: 150 Member Member Posts: 150 Member
    sarahlifts wrote: »
    I'm finally in the cut boat. Went from 137 to 166 in 12 months. I'm currently at 159 lbs1`q

    Ready to end the fluff now. I know it will take time. I'm cutting for the sake of stripping the fat. I need to set a date. I'll be updating here.

    Right now at 159 I feel so fat. Its my feeling, I don't feel my best, my clothes don't fit, I can wear my size 4 pants but they are tight as hell on me. I'm not bikini ready. Yes I have a body yes I can put it in a bikini but at the end of the day I have standards for myself. Not What others think. I'll put on a full bathing suit before I wear a bikini.

    This is my last bulk. I'm glad its over. I took this as far as I could take it, in weight gained, in food consumed, and in weight on the bar.

    Good luck and keep at it! Sounds like you're in the best place for a cut and ready to show what you've worked for during your bulk. Keep us posted with your progress :smile:
  • sardelsasardelsa Member Posts: 9,834 Member Member Posts: 9,834 Member
    sarahlifts wrote: »
    I'm finally in the cut boat. Went from 137 to 166 in 12 months. I'm currently at 159 lbs1`q

    Ready to end the fluff now. I know it will take time. I'm cutting for the sake of stripping the fat. I need to set a date. I'll be updating here.

    Right now at 159 I feel so fat. Its my feeling, I don't feel my best, my clothes don't fit, I can wear my size 4 pants but they are tight as hell on me. I'm not bikini ready. Yes I have a body yes I can put it in a bikini but at the end of the day I have standards for myself. Not What others think. I'll put on a full bathing suit before I wear a bikini.

    This is my last bulk. I'm glad its over. I took this as far as I could take it, in weight gained, in food consumed, and in weight on the bar.

    Good luck! :)
  • sardelsasardelsa Member Posts: 9,834 Member Member Posts: 9,834 Member
    Yesterday kicked off week 4 of rfl cut and progress has slowed a bit:
    Starting Weight - 216lbs
    End of week 1 - 208lbs
    End of week 2 - 206
    End of week 3 - 203
    This passed weekend was a bit rough and I fell off the program Friday by having a few drinks. Was able to mostly keep my eating under control but the booze calories were heavier than I wanted. Also, during my refeed at a family party on Sunday, I ate too many desserts with high fat and sugar. But, all my free time was filled with heavy yard work so I'm not stressing it much. Back to the routine as of yesterday and will end the run this coming Sunday. After that, I'll spend a week building up to maintenance followed by two weeks vacation at maintenance (as much as possible) then I'll reassess whether to run a few more weeks of rfl or a more traditional cut.

    Yea my weekend was the same. Arg. It's so hard with family gatherings! :s Sounds like you are doing really well though, keep it up!
  • jdog022jdog022 Member Posts: 695 Member Member Posts: 695 Member
    mine was also the same but after 13 weeks of cutting and dropping 11 pounds ... whatever. probably helped reset some leptin anyhow. solid refeed ha!

    I'll go hard this week then I have a week at the beach. Also going to be a whatever week and although I'll keep things fairly under control there will be no tracking, some beer and treats. Then going hard for 4-6 more weeks and will reverse out. This year's cut was a dry run to see if I want to complete next year. Also my first bulk and cut cycle. I have some friends who think I should but I'll hire a coach to get unbiased opinions. I'm Still not sure. it's pretty damn hard to get that lean and keep up with our little kids. 5 and baby. They don't understand tired. at all.
  • pinggolfer96pinggolfer96 Member Posts: 2,255 Member Member Posts: 2,255 Member
    You can check progress of my bulk to cut on my instagram!
    @jordanv1996
    https://www.instagram.com/jordanv1996/?hl=en
  • jdog022jdog022 Member Posts: 695 Member Member Posts: 695 Member
    lol one 5 year old and a baby. not 5 kids.. good God no. 2 is plenty
  • sardelsasardelsa Member Posts: 9,834 Member Member Posts: 9,834 Member
    jdog022 wrote: »
    lol one 5 year old and a baby. not 5 kids.. good God no. 2 is plenty

    :D
  • DavidsdottirDavidsdottir Member Posts: 1,295 Member Member Posts: 1,295 Member
    jdog022 wrote: »
    lol one 5 year old and a baby. not 5 kids.. good God no. 2 is plenty

    HAHAHA! Here I am thinking my one is plenty.
  • steveko89steveko89 Member Posts: 2,092 Member Member Posts: 2,092 Member
    Finally got on the right track after posting on 5/14, finished out that week to come in average right about maintenance, and have been under in the two weeks since, down to 173 this morning from a high of 179. By weekly weight averages I was down 1.5 lbs last week and on pace to hit at least that much this week. My plan had been to finish my cut this week, theoretically in the 166-167lb range but that clearly didn't happen with my slow and admittedly poor transition. Audible is to continue cutting for at least the next two full weeks, maybe the whole month of June, and just see how lean I can get in that time frame.
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