Anyone cutting after a bulk?
Replies
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Regarding recomping, I think it makes sense for some novices are light experience lifters but certainly isn't for everyone. I bought my first barbell in July of 2015, the photo comparison between the start, that fall, and even the fall of '16 aren't bad but it's a bit of a slow slog after that. Depending on one's definition, I've either done a noisy recomp or noisy uncontrolled-but-narrow bulk/cut cycles bouncing between 170 and 182, but overall dropping my BF% by about points.1
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I have nothing against recomp but it is definitely not my first option. However, I will be in a bit of limbo (in between bulks) since I am not lean enough to bulk right now, and if I keep cutting I'll be too lean to recomp effectively. I could just cut down, get to goal, stay there for 4 months then bulk in August. But then I'd be maintaining a very lean low weight, probably not be happy with my muscle mass, etc.
Or I could start maintenance in a few weeks with my bodyfat higher and see where it takes me which I think I'll try.
I know I'm overcomplicating it but I think most of us in here have at one point or another!
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Here's an interesting video on body recomp...
https://youtu.be/Fv5xEYhvj4Q
But I'm pretty sure, the leaner you are, the harder it will be for your body to tap fat stores for energy, which means you will rely heavily on glycogen, which means muscle depletion...1 -
Mr_Healthy_Habits wrote: »But I'm pretty sure, the leaner you are, the harder it will be for your body to tap fat stores for energy, which means you will rely heavily on glycogen, which means muscle depletion...
I like Jeff... but I'm a little (lol - a LOT) dubious about his example. That guy he uses had that amazing transformation in supposedly 90 days. His before pic looks like at least 25% body-fat. The after is sub 15% and probably closer to 13%. Granted, they did the trick of having him tighten everything up for the "after" and changed the pose but there is still a significant change.... adding that much lean mass in 90 days would be unheard of even by someone who is new to lifting, relatively lean to start with, a great responder, and who did everything perfectly. His example did this while losing a huge amount of fat by eating at maintenance and training for three months without "assistance". I'd have been much happier if he used a more realistic example.
Also, I'm not sure I like some of his reasons - being that he thinks most people start a bulk and can never get rolling on their cuts so get stuck in a perpetual bulked state. Heck, with that logic nobody should ever try to get jacked because 9 out 10 people who hit the gym with that goal fail miserably. He also insinuates that someone bulking to 18% is "out of shape" and unworthy of taking their shirt off, because we all bulk to 25%+ and look like a Panda.... well, I did that once, but whatever. lol
I actually agree with (I think it was Israetel?) where he talked about recomp being a better idea for very "Advanced" lifters who really get no benefit from a bulk/cut cycle - meaning guys/gals who are very close to their natural genetic limits where adding even a pound or two of muscle over a year is an achievement. No sense adding a bunch of fat and almost no muscle and having to cut to be back to square one.
He kinda touches on it here.
https://youtu.be/5pkbrTpKaj4 1 -
jseams1234 wrote: »Mr_Healthy_Habits wrote: »But I'm pretty sure, the leaner you are, the harder it will be for your body to tap fat stores for energy, which means you will rely heavily on glycogen, which means muscle depletion...
I like Jeff... but I'm a little (lol - a LOT) dubious about his example. That guy he uses had that amazing transformation in supposedly 90 days. His before pic looks like at least 25% body-fat. The after is sub 15% and probably closer to 13%. Granted, they did the trick of having him tighten everything up for the "after" and changed the pose but there is still a significant change.... adding that much lean mass in 90 days would be unheard of even by someone who is new to lifting, relatively lean to start with, a great responder, and who did everything perfectly. His example did this while losing a huge amount of fat by eating at maintenance and training for three months without "assistance". I'd have been much happier if he used a more realistic example.
Also, I'm not sure I like some of his reasons - being that he thinks most people start a bulk and can never get rolling on their cuts so get stuck in a perpetual bulked state. Heck, with that logic nobody should ever try to get jacked because 9 out 10 people who hit the gym with that goal fail miserably. He also insinuates that someone bulking to 18% is "out of shape" and unworthy of taking their shirt off, because we all bulk to 25%+ and look like a Panda.... well, I did that once, but whatever. lol
I actually agree with (I think it was Israetel?) where he talked about recomp being a better idea for very "Advanced" lifters who really get no benefit from a bulk/cut cycle - meaning guys/gals who are very close to their natural genetic limits where adding even a pound or two of muscle over a year is an achievement. No sense adding a bunch of fat and almost no muscle and having to cut to be back to square one.
He kinda touches on it here.https://youtu.be/5pkbrTpKaj4
Yeah I thought about commenting on his example as well too... Who really knows what kind of camera tricks went into this but regardless a helluva transformation and totally possible...
And yeah Jeff is most likely natural, no bulking or cutting, but he also doesn't drink any alcohol and has like only a bite of carrot cake per year to maintain his physique...
Not for me lol, there's more to life... But then Jeff makes millions with his physique so it's worth it for him
Scooby is another one who doesn't like b&c, for very much the same reason... He says with the scale of the obesity epidemic in this country, there's just no way he could consciously recommend anyone gain weight... And I totally get that...
But if I have a goal rn, it's definitely to get bigger... Which isn't going to happen without gaining weight... Which means bulking, but I'm going to be a total nerd about tracking progress and try to go about it as smart as I can0 -
I love bulking and cutting, no one (even Bret Contreras who also isn't a huge fan) could convince me otherwise. It just comes so natural to me, I love seeing progress... mirror, scale, measurements...it is so motivating to me! I just really don't have the patience to maintain and hope for the best not really knowing where I will end up, it totally freaks me out! I mean maybe once I am 99.9% happy with my physique and just want to add some sprinkles on top, I will consider hanging up the bulks. Probably have 2 more cycles in me until I do.
But that doesn't mean I would recommend bulking to everyone of course. It is very difficult mentally and physically especially for someone who isn't competing or anything, just wants to look a bit better.3 -
Mr_Healthy_Habits wrote: »
Yeah I thought about commenting on his example as well too... Who really knows what kind of camera tricks went into this but regardless a helluva transformation and totally possible...
And yeah Jeff is most likely natural, no bulking or cutting, but he also doesn't drink any alcohol and has like only a bite of carrot cake per year to maintain his physique...
Not for me lol, there's more to life... But then Jeff makes millions with his physique so it's worth it for him
Scooby is another one who doesn't like b&c, for very much the same reason... He says with the scale of the obesity epidemic in this country, there's just no way he could consciously recommend anyone gain weight... And I totally get that...
But if I have a goal rn, it's definitely to get bigger... Which isn't going to happen without gaining weight... Which means bulking, but I'm going to be a total nerd about tracking progress and try to go about it as smart as I can
Me too. I'm not small now but I just know that I can get bigger regardless of what my wife thinks about it (she rolls her eyes a lot). She's more into the Ryan Gosling look than the Rock. She thinks I'm too big as it is and threatens that she will leave me if I ever get to the point where I can't wipe my own butt... which will never happen. I just don't have the genetics or the desire to go deep down that hole.
I wasn't joking about the Panda thing. I got to over 250 on one of my bulks and couldn't tie my own shoes. Not going to do that again - so I'm going to be tracking everything pretty tightly too.
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Hey anyone that disagrees feel free to have a discussion, promise I won't bite
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Hey anyone that disagrees feel free to have a discussion, promise I won't bite
I can only talk from my experience of recomping which is that I started mid range of normal bmi when I began lifting and 3 years later I’m 10 pounds lighter and at the lower end of normal now so I either did an extremely slow cut or a recomp depending on how you define it. It is very slow. But worked for me as I was previously overweight and I’m cautious about bulks and cuts because I hate dieting. Maintaining is very easy for me as is gaining.
So I’m not disagreeing with yr plans. Only thing I would say is that I think you are relatively advanced as a lifter and I read something by Eric helms in his muscle and strength training pyramids nutrition book suggesting that recomp would be harder for a more advanced lifter. He didn’t say it was impossible to make progress, just that bulks and cuts are possibly more beneficial the more advanced you get.1 -
Btw I wasn’t disagreeing with sardelsa or anyone else. I think the subject is nuanced and this discussion has been helpful for me0
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cupcakesandproteinshakes wrote: »Hey anyone that disagrees feel free to have a discussion, promise I won't bite
I can only talk from my experience of recomping which is that I started mid range of normal bmi when I began lifting and 3 years later I’m 10 pounds lighter and at the lower end of normal now so I either did an extremely slow cut or a recomp depending on how you define it. It is very slow. But worked for me as I was previously overweight and I’m cautious about bulks and cuts because I hate dieting. Maintaining is very easy for me as is gaining.
So I’m not disagreeing with yr plans. Only thing I would say is that I think you are relatively advanced as a lifter and I read something by Eric helms in his muscle and strength training pyramids nutrition book suggesting that recomp would be harder for a more advanced lifter. He didn’t say it was impossible to make progress, just that bulks and cuts are possibly more beneficial the more advanced you get.
Oh yea I definitely think I could make progress recomping (I've tried it before in the past) but it's hard for me to see it day to day so I personally would be discouraged and more likely to quit. I am not dismissing results or anything like that! I am going to try my best to give it a real go this time, maybe I will be a convert
And I am absolutely not an advanced lifter.. I am probably considered a beginner since I had to start over again. Uch sucky.
I do like the discussion on recomp vs. bulk/cut, pros/cons, what people find difficult, why they chose a certain path. So I would love people to keep sharing their experiences, research, videos etc.2 -
e that! I am going to try my best to give it a real go this time, maybe I will be a convert
And I am absolutely not an advanced lifter.. I am probably considered a beginner since I had to start over again. Uch sucky.
It's my understanding lifter level is more about training experience than strength benchmarks, as it was once touted. Probably depends on who you ask.0 -
First week of the NY down and so far I'm pretty happy with the results...
I guess really I'm training purely for aesthetics at this point... Which means maintaining my waist and increasing size everywhere else...
I'm not doing much calorie tracking tbh and don't really feel it's necessary unless I'm eating odd ball or just want to recalibrate the diet...
Body tracking tho is going to be increasingly important...
So far since the lowest weight of my last cut, I'm up about 7lbs in 14w... About 0.5lb/w, nice and slow
Waist is up about 0.25"
Suprailiac is up about 0.5mm or less
Abdomen is up about 1mm or less
I can honestly chalk that up to a little bloating as well
I've also added to my thighs and chest as well... 👍🏼
I'm pressing more and more every week on my legs, and have either added reps or weight everywhere else...
I listened to an audiobook a while ago called "Burn the fat, feed the muscle" and he says that if you eat a little extra every day and train properly, you won't gain any fat... And I want to believe him
I'm just going to eat how I feel, and if I start to plateau, I'll eat a little more, track those measurements and steer the ship along this fantastic voyage I've been discovering... ✌🏼💕0 -
pitbullpuppy wrote: »I was reading on another forum about cutting methods and read some people (primarily competitors) who fast up to 10 days on water, tea, coffee, soda only to cut quick. It doesn't sound like the greatest thing but there was talk of your body not being able to eat so much muscle in 10 days of 0(ish) calories as it can in 90(ish) days of eating at a slight deficit. Then I've read others talking about how you'll lose "ALL" of your gains in as short as 3 days on a water/tea/coffee/diet soda fast. I'm not condoning anything, just posting to add to the conversation.
I know and train with a lot of competitors, never in my 25 years training have I ever heard of anyone doing a 10 day fast, even using all the PEDS known to man
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pitbullpuppy wrote: »I was reading on another forum about cutting methods and read some people (primarily competitors) who fast up to 10 days on water, tea, coffee, soda only to cut quick. It doesn't sound like the greatest thing but there was talk of your body not being able to eat so much muscle in 10 days of 0(ish) calories as it can in 90(ish) days of eating at a slight deficit. Then I've read others talking about how you'll lose "ALL" of your gains in as short as 3 days on a water/tea/coffee/diet soda fast. I'm not condoning anything, just posting to add to the conversation.
I've never heard of this but it sounds like a terrible idea, a way to lose strength, muscle, aesthetics and body function. No thanks4 -
pitbullpuppy wrote: »I was reading on another forum about cutting methods and read some people (primarily competitors) who fast up to 10 days on water, tea, coffee, soda only to cut quick. It doesn't sound like the greatest thing but there was talk of your body not being able to eat so much muscle in 10 days of 0(ish) calories as it can in 90(ish) days of eating at a slight deficit. Then I've read others talking about how you'll lose "ALL" of your gains in as short as 3 days on a water/tea/coffee/diet soda fast. I'm not condoning anything, just posting to add to the conversation.
This makes me think of a boxer in many ways...
No one cuts weight like a boxer, they will basically dehydrate themselves down as much as they need to before a weigh in, and step on the scale looking crazy lean (8% ish), but you can see how spaced out they are from this...
They immediately start drinking water right after they get off the scale and over the course of a day will rehydrate back up 10-15lbs... The also do not look as lean on fight night as they did during the weigh in...
Which is interesting to me because if they look 8% or so on the scale, then drink a ton of water... You would think their overall bf% would be lower on fight night since it's a ratio of fat to lean mass, but in fact they look less lean... Bf% is an interesting thing for sure, one I'm not quite sure we fully understand...
This is also common practice for most models, actors, etc...1 -
I might have gained 4 lbs over Christmas lol. Back to cutting.
Started the week at 176 and now sitting 172. Love that glycogen depletion, even while eating a crap ton at New Year's (are about a lb of cheese).
I started to incorporate 16:8 with no logging about a week ago. Interesting note, this is a lot easier for me while on keto. Still eat a lot of breakfast foods but I eat my first meal around 11-12 and dinner around 5-6.
170 this morning. No tracking. Just eating Keto and throwing some IF in. Mostly just eat two bigger meals a day. Sometimes i snack if i am really starving.3 -
Btw, currently i am unable to squat from some lower back issues. Any good suggestions for replacement?
I do single leg press, quad focus leg press, ham focused leg press, leg curls, extensions, calve raises and i can do cable squats.
No hack squat in my gym.0 -
Btw, currently i am unable to squat from some lower back issues. Any good suggestions for replacement?
I do single leg press, quad focus leg press, ham focused leg press, leg curls, extensions, calve raises and i can do cable squats.
No hack squat in my gym.
I can't squat well because of my knees but we have a leg press machine that memics a squat on your back pretty well... That somehow doesn't bother my knees...
I know people go on and on about squats and deadlifts, but considering the risk, it's not worth the reward for me at 37...
At the end of the day, Daddy's gotta work lol0 -
Mr_Healthy_Habits wrote: »Btw, currently i am unable to squat from some lower back issues. Any good suggestions for replacement?
I do single leg press, quad focus leg press, ham focused leg press, leg curls, extensions, calve raises and i can do cable squats.
No hack squat in my gym.
I can't squat well because of my knees but we have a leg press machine that memics a squat on your back pretty well... That somehow doesn't bother my knees...
I know people go on and on about squats and deadlifts, but considering the risk, it's not worth the reward for me at 37...
At the end of the day, Daddy's gotta work lol
Yea, i am the same age and have dad duties as well. Right now i am putting greater emphasis on upper body. And Les Mills cycling.
I still deadlift a bit (mostly hex bar), GHR and used to do hip thrust.0 -
Btw, currently i am unable to squat from some lower back issues. Any good suggestions for replacement?
I do single leg press, quad focus leg press, ham focused leg press, leg curls, extensions, calve raises and i can do cable squats.
No hack squat in my gym.
Does your gym have a V squat machine ?
Really takes the strain off lower back
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Btw, currently i am unable to squat from some lower back issues. Any good suggestions for replacement?
I do single leg press, quad focus leg press, ham focused leg press, leg curls, extensions, calve raises and i can do cable squats.
No hack squat in my gym.
Does your gym have a V squat machine ?
Really takes the strain off lower back
I looked this up and the it's just like the leg press machine at my work gym, only ours is horizontal...
It's been a game changer for my knees1 -
Mr_Healthy_Habits wrote: »Btw, currently i am unable to squat from some lower back issues. Any good suggestions for replacement?
I do single leg press, quad focus leg press, ham focused leg press, leg curls, extensions, calve raises and i can do cable squats.
No hack squat in my gym.
I can't squat well because of my knees but we have a leg press machine that memics a squat on your back pretty well... That somehow doesn't bother my knees...
I know people go on and on about squats and deadlifts, but considering the risk, it's not worth the reward for me at 37...
At the end of the day, Daddy's gotta work lol
Yea, i am the same age and have dad duties as well. Right now i am putting greater emphasis on upper body. And Les Mills cycling.
I still deadlift a bit (mostly hex bar), GHR and used to do hip thrust.
I got a hex bar to help with my back and ended up screwing up my knee, so I have to be careful even with that... But I ran a lot of my weight off, so I have a few nagging over use injuries that will likely never heal...
Still worth it of course0 -
Btw, currently i am unable to squat from some lower back issues. Any good suggestions for replacement?
I do single leg press, quad focus leg press, ham focused leg press, leg curls, extensions, calve raises and i can do cable squats.
No hack squat in my gym.
Does your gym have a V squat machine ?
Really takes the strain off lower back
We do. I do my single leg squats on it. Maybe i am covering this better than i thought.1 -
Btw, currently i am unable to squat from some lower back issues. Any good suggestions for replacement?
I do single leg press, quad focus leg press, ham focused leg press, leg curls, extensions, calve raises and i can do cable squats.
No hack squat in my gym.
Does your gym have a V squat machine ?
Really takes the strain off lower back
We do. I do my single leg squats on it. Maybe i am covering this better than i thought.
Sounds like your working around your back issues and still getting decent leg training in1 -
So sour gummy bears are keto right?3
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I'll wait until April before I start cutting.
The 70 day fat loss shred by Steve Shaw looks great.
I have bulked from 176lbs to 222lbs but I've seen an increase in my bodyfat percentage as well and I'm now eating 3200 calories a day but I'll reduce it to 2300 calories per day once I start the fat loss shred.1 -
That's some great gains @pitbullpuppy how long did you bulk for?0
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pitbullpuppy wrote: »That's some great gains @pitbullpuppy how long did you bulk for?
I've been bulking since the start of November and following Arnold's plan religiously from his Bodybuilding Bible. I can totally, totally see massive changes in my entire body. Frankly I'm not even sure I'll need to drop to 117 to get rid of the fat & really reveal it, I'm just starting to feel pudgy. We'll seeeee! I'd love to be able to compete as bikini at some point!
I just found a PDF of that and it's quite the compendium. Which plan from the book have you been following?0
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