Carbs/Protein/Glycogen

ahilton1992

Question for someone with real knowledge and preferably a degree in nutrition or something similar.

I consider myself to have a little above average knowledge when it comes to the body and how different macro-nutrients are used.

Here is my question though:

Say you're in a cutting phase, or doing a recomp.. anything other than bulking really - If excess protein can be converted to glycogen and used as energy for the body, then what is the point in being on anything other than a low carb diet (if this is an approach that works for the individual)?

Carbs give energy, but do not build muscle. So why not just eat a very high protein diet and stay low carb? Your body is going to convert excess protein and store it as glycogen anyways?

YES, I realize excessive protein is hard on some organs. Speaking for ONLY ME though - I drop weight extremely quick when I am low carb, don't have any digestive issues, and with 250g of protein per day at 190 pounds I have no trouble with hunger, energy levels, and am still able to increase my lifts in the gym while loosing excess weight and/or maintaining below average body fat. So if you're not looking to gain pure mass, but want to stay lean year round and are okay slowly gaining lean muscle mass, why bother with carbs at all?

Before anyone responds, I am fully aware that this approach would not work for a lot of people, and I'm fully aware of what too much protein can do to the body. This is more of a "in theory" question".

jjpptt2

From an "in theory" standpoint...

You need minimum fat intake for certain body functions, hormones, etc. Beyond that, I don't see a reason specifically AGAINST high protein/moderate fat/low carb.

In practice there are a number of reasons someone might not want to... but that's what you're trying to avoid in this discussion, right?

ahilton1992

@jjpptt2 Correct. I realize for most people this would be impractical. More so of in theory for how the body works and gaining lean muscle mass while on a low carb diet. I know someone will probably say I'm talking about Keto, but that's typically a high fat diet and not so much what I'm talking about.

JMcGee2018

Assuming that your "no carb" diet doesn't eliminate things like vegetables, there isn't anything wrong with a high protein, extremely low carb diet if your body responds well to it. Foods like fruits and vegetables, which contain carbs, also contain the necessary vitamins, minerals, and fiber that our body needs to be healthy, but once you've provided your body with those nutrients, there's really no reason to eat more carbs unless you want to.

SariC3

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z3fO5aTD6JU

jjpptt2

ahilton1992 wrote: »

@jjpptt2 Correct. I realize for most people this would be impractical. More so of in theory for how the body works and gaining lean muscle mass while on a low carb diet. I know someone will probably say I'm talking about Keto, but that's typically a high fat diet and not so much what I'm talking about.

A couple of things worth noting, just to be clear and avoid any misunderstanding/miscommunication.

Muscle is muscle. It's lean by nature. There's no such thing as fat muscle. You can gain lean weight, but saying you gain lean muscle is, at best, redundant.

The question in my mind is whether or not a person's energy levels will be impacted enough on a low carb diet to affect their workouts, which could certainly impact body composition. I'm not sure how you have that conversation in theory though... that's more of a "your mileage may vary" thing, IMO.

ahilton1992

@JMcGee2018 Thank you for that answer. I see people talking about splitting up their macros 40/40/20 or something of that nature, and from a scientific standpoint, I really just don't see the point in that many carbs.

jjpptt2

ahilton1992 wrote: »

@JMcGee2018 Thank you for that answer. I see people talking about splitting up their macros 40/40/20 or something of that nature, and from a scientific standpoint, I really just don't see the point in that many carbs.

I assume one of the 40s in that breakdown is carbs?

And McGee brings up a good point - are we including health/nutrition in this conversation, or just muscle building/retention?

ahilton1992

Just muscle building / retention. And for me, when I wrote the question, it's really with getting bigger/stronger without having to go through a serious cutting phase every Summer. That type of situation.

ahilton1992

Basically, that if you're eating enough protein, then carbs serve no point for your body when it comes to building muscle and muscle retention

jjpptt2

ahilton1992 wrote: »

Basically, that if you're eating enough protein, then carbs serve no point for your body when it comes to building muscle and muscle retention

I don't think it's that black and white... but I'll let others better versed on the science to jump in.

ahilton1992

It would just make sense to me that since excess carbs AND protein can be both be converted to glycogen and stored as energy in the body, why eat carbs when only protein builds muscle. Obviously, TOO much protein will still cause weight gain.

jjpptt2

I don't think muscle building is exclusively protein-based. Primarily, yes. Exclusively, I don't think so.

Interesting conversation though... I'm following along.

JMcGee2018

ahilton1992 wrote: »

It would just make sense to me that since excess carbs AND protein can be both be converted to glycogen and stored as energy in the body, why eat carbs when only protein builds muscle. Obviously, TOO much protein will still cause weight gain.

There's the flip side that your body does more than just build muscle, so calories from carbs aren't useless, even if they are unnecessary for muscle growth.

ahilton1992

Good point @JMcGee2018

Like @jjpptt2 said, I think it's just a really interesting conversation/debate/whatever you want to call it.

ahilton1992

Someone correct me if I'm wrong -

I know simple carbs can be good for spiking insulin levels after a workout, which helps drive amino acids to the muscles, but whey protein is also known for spiking insulin levels. So again, carbs seem obsolete in the muscle building process.

RuNaRoUnDaFiEld

What about the other functions in your body?

How would you plan on getting your micros?

Carbs may be unnecessary to the body but your micros aren't.

The only way to get them with protein sources would be to consume a fair amount of offal each day.

ahilton1992

Yes, absolutely - there are other functions that have to go on in your body to be healthy that require micro nutrients and are probably neecssary for optimal muscle growth.

Couple of things - obviously, I’m not talking about eliminating EVERY carb. Sill eat your vegetables, you’re still gonna yet probably 50 carbs a day or so justthrough protein shakes and such. You can a multi vitamin to help pick up the slack.

I’m really just talking about the role that carbs play in muscle building specifically.

ahilton1992

I really think the main argument for carbs in muscle building is having energy (glycogen) to get through intense weight lifting sessions, and replenishing those glycogen stores post workout. But because protein can be converted to glycogen I’m failing to see a a reason (backed by science) that a significant amount of carbs are need in the process.

AnvilHead

ahilton1992 wrote: »

Someone correct me if I'm wrong -

I know simple carbs can be good for spiking insulin levels after a workout, which helps drive amino acids to the muscles, but whey protein is also known for spiking insulin levels. So again, carbs seem obsolete in the muscle building process.

1) Carbs are anti-catabolic.

2) Carbs are primarily what replenish your glycogen stores, and glycogen is important for synthesis of ATP, which is what drives the ability of your muscles to contract. The ability of your muscles to contract is what drives your workout, and your workout is what drives muscle gain.



As far as low-carb diets go, Alan Aragon explains it pretty well here:

ahilton1992

@AnvilHead thank you! This is the type of info I was looking for. Real science! Much appreciated

cwolfman13

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3850644/

Conclusion and perspectives
There is a growing body of literature analysing the impact that co-ingestion of protein-carbohydrate versus carbohydrate alone has on protein synthesis. However, there are far fewer studies examining the actions of co-ingested carbohydrate-protein compared to protein alone. More importantly, no chronic study has addressed the effects of adding carbohydrate to protein compared to protein alone on muscle hypertrophy.

In conclusion, whilst it cannot be excluded that carbohydrate addition may provide benefits for recovering athletes, on the basis of available data, no further beneficial actions of carbohydrates, irrespective of GI, are evident concerning muscle hypertrophy when a protein supplement that maximally stimulate muscle protein synthesis is ingested. Further studies are required before conclusions and recommendations can be made.

Jury is out...

I know a few bodybuilders though, and they kill the carbs and the protein and only do lower carb when they're cutting and only do keto for a couple weeks or so before a show.

ahilton1992

@AnvilHead based off this, would you say it’s safe to say that 20-40g or carbs before a workout, and maybe a similar amount right after - is all that would be needed for them to fulfill their purpose?
Don’t take actual serving since too literal, would vary based in person obviously

ahilton1992

@cwolfman13 that’s really interesting, and an eye opening two paragraphs. Thank you for sharing that. I think something really interesting could come of a study that focuses on exactly what those paragraphs are talking about.

ahilton1992

Obviously low carb sucks for most people. There’s no denying that. But I think the science behind it is interesting - and the true affect it REALLY has.

AnvilHead

ahilton1992 wrote: »

@AnvilHead based off this, would you say it’s safe to say that 20-40g or carbs before a workout, and maybe a similar amount right after - is all that would be needed for them to fulfill their purpose?
Don’t take actual serving since too literal, would vary based in person obviously

I'll defer to the experts here. Here's a short excerpt from Eric Helms' excellent Muscle and Strength Nutrition Pyramid book:

Finally, whether you are dieting or not may play a role as well. A recently published study found that a group of lifters who consumed 28g of carbohydrate prior to and after training, compared to a group that consumed 28g of protein prior to and after training, had improved muscular endurance after 8 weeks of dieting [33]. That said, it’s impossible to know whether simply having 56g of carbohydrate per training day that the other group did not caused this difference in performance, or whether it was the timing of the carbohydrate. However, it may be a safe decision to simply ensure some amount of carbohydrate is consumed 1-2 hours pre-workout in an easily digestible form while dieting.

As an aside - if you really want to dig deep into the topic, I'd highly recommend Eric's Muscle and Strength Pyramids e-books. They're a thorough, comprehensive, evidence-based source of information, backed by his own personal results as both a competitive natural bodybuilder and powerlifter (in addition to holding a PhD in Strength and Conditioning, and being a published researcher). No affiliation here except that I paid for the books out of my own pocket and find them very informative and helpful.

cwolfman13

ahilton1992 wrote: »

Obviously low carb sucks for most people. There’s no denying that. But I think the science behind it is interesting - and the true affect it REALLY has.

I do lower carb when I'm cutting weight, but not keto...I'm usually around 130-150 grams...mostly because it's the easiest macro to flex. If I go much lower than that, my cycling sucks, especially if I'm doing 20k time trials because basically you're at close to threshold for 12 miles.

ahilton1992

@AnvilHead Really appreciate this info. I might be looking for info that isn't truly out there. Gonna for sure check out Eric's Muscle & Strength stuff

ahilton1992

So the thoughts I've come up with based off everyone's responses and sitting here at work not doing my job and researching this instead - goes back to what @cwolfman13 posted part of an article about.

http://cristivlad.com/energy-levels-under-ketosis-fats-carbs-and-atp/

In general, carbohydrates form the main energy source for the body. They are the most efficient at producing ATP or energy (meaning they produce lots more ATP per amount of the fuel broken down). The body preferentially breaks down carbohydrates first, and then fats and finally proteins only if the other two fuels are depleted. This is important as proteins are generally less efficient at generating energy. In addition, proteins perform several important functions so if they were broken down several systems could fail.

So basically carbs are the most EFFICIENT at being used for energy. But considerably less necessary for actually building/re-building muscle after being broken down.

AnvilHead

ahilton1992 wrote: »

So the thoughts I've come up with based off everyone's responses and sitting here at work not doing my job and researching this instead - goes back to what @cwolfman13 posted part of an article about.

http://cristivlad.com/energy-levels-under-ketosis-fats-carbs-and-atp/

In general, carbohydrates form the main energy source for the body. They are the most efficient at producing ATP or energy (meaning they produce lots more ATP per amount of the fuel broken down). The body preferentially breaks down carbohydrates first, and then fats and finally proteins only if the other two fuels are depleted. This is important as proteins are generally less efficient at generating energy. In addition, proteins perform several important functions so if they were broken down several systems could fail.

So basically carbs are the most EFFICIENT at being used for energy. But considerably less necessary for actually building/re-building muscle after being broken down.

Muscle protein synthesis is a completely different topic than fueling your workouts. It's like talking about both top speed and fuel mileage when taking a car trip - they're both going to contribute to the end result and are inter-related, but they're not the same thing.

Here's a good read about muscle protein synthesis: http://www.nutritiontactics.com/measure-muscle-protein-synthesis/

ahilton1992

Great article so far, still reading it but this jumped out at me -

You only need a minimal amount of food to reach insulin concentrations that maximally inhibit muscle protein breakdown. In agreement, adding carbohydrates to 30 g of protein does not further decrease muscle protein breakdown rates (Staples, 2011).