Carbs/Protein/Glycogen

ahilton1992

7.4 Carbohydrate or fat co-ingestion
Carbohydrates slows down protein digestion, but have no effect on MPS (Gorissen, 2014). In agreement, adding large amounts of carbohydrates to protein does not improve post-exercise MPS rates (Koopman, 2007).

In addition to the effects on protein digestion, it has been suggested that carbohydrates stimulate insulin release, which may stimulate muscle protein synthesis and/or muscle protein breakdown rates. However, the addition of carbohydrates to post-exercise protein has no effect on muscle protein synthesis or breakdown rates. The effects of insulin on muscle protein breakdown rates are described in more detail in section 2, and the effects of insulin on muscle protein synthesis are further described in section 7.6.

ahilton1992

So I think carbs are over-hyped lol

ahilton1992

for the purposes we've been talking about

ahilton1992

Insulin inhibits muscle protein breakdown a bit, but only a little is needed for the maximal effect (this is discussed in dept in section XXX). A protein shake alone increases enough insulin to maximally inhibit muscle protein breakdown, you don’t need additional carbohydrates (Staples, 2011).

ahilton1992

This is really interesting -

Only three days of dieting already reduce basal MPS (Areta, 2014). This shows that an energy deficit is suboptimal for MPS, however you can grow muscle mass while losing fat (Longland, 2016). It is unclear if eating above maintenance is needed to optimize MPS.

ahilton1992

Watching the entire interview - It's interesting that there really have not been any studies on what increasing protein intake during a calorie deficit does and the effect it would have on your body.. those could be some ground breaking findings when it comes to getting stronger/gaining muscle while in a calorie deficit.

ahilton1992

Found this study online. It doesn't have to do as much with carbs, but they studied two groups both in a major calorie deficit, but one group taking in considerable more protein then the other. Really interesting when it comes to the subject of what a significant increase in protein during a calorie deficit can do.

https://examine.com/nutrition/dieting-with-a-side-of-extra-protein/

ForecasterJason

Interesting discussion. I often hear on here and in other places that carbs are very important for building muscle. But if I understand this correctly, it seems like it doesn't really take that much.
Take for instance someone who is bulking on 2500 calories with a 30/50/20 split of carbs, fat, and protein respectively. That carb percentage would generally be considered somewhat low, but that's still close to 200g a day. It seems like that would be plenty enough for a lot of people for glycogen/overall energy purposes.

ahilton1992

@ForecasterJason That's really what I think. I do believe there is more than one way to get to the same end point. Unfortunately, I think "Bro Science: has become the norm - which is okay, it still works to an extent. But when it comes to what the body actually requires to go through the process of building muscle, I think there are some misconceptions that truly are believed to be 100% accurate. Based on everything I've ready (actual studies that have been done, not people posting their Bro Science on forums) I don't see any scientific evidence that you can't build lean mass (muscle) while on a caloric deficit, or at caloric maintenance. Surely, you may not see the same gains as someone doing a true bulk. But I do believe you can keep that six pack AND gain muscle at a reasonable pace (which is just personally my preferred method).
And if you want to take it up a notch, and use nutrient timing/meal timing I believe there is definitely a lot of room to get our body to do what you want it to do in a more efficient manner.

ahilton1992

@ForecasterJason I believe the basis for the whole argument is - although there is nothing wrong with consuming more carbs.. This popular belief that you HAVE to to build muscle mass is not true.

jjpptt2

I wonder how energy levels are affected by extreme carb restrictions. Sub-par workouts will impact muscle development. So while not a direct cause... still a factor in the conversation.

rheddmobile

What AnvilHead said pretty much covers it, but also, ketosis makes your breath smell like a trash can with a dead squirrel in it.

ahilton1992

@jjpptt2 Yes, absolutely. Especially for folks who may be new to low carb - it is tough. Probably why it is so highly debated.

Just for me personally, say I didn't get much sleep the night before and am feeling groggy, then when I'm low carb (50-70G per day) a bowl of oatmeal with about 30-35 carbs pre workout seems to be all I need to for that extra kick.

Here's what's crazy to me though: Your body has 4 main sources it can use for energy -
Body Fat
Muscle Glycogen
Liver Glycogen
Muscle/Tissue

All 4 can used for energy by the body.

When we talk about "energy levels".. that really is just referring to glycogen - Muscles can store about 350-400g of glycogen (From what I've read from multiple sources), and since protein will convert to glycogen (although not as easily as carbs) then theoretically you should be able to have the same energy levels without carbs.

rheddmobile

ahilton1992 wrote: »

Yes, absolutely. Especially for folks who may be new to low carb - it is tough. Probably why it is so highly debated.

Just for me personally, say I didn't get much sleep the night before and am feeling groggy, then when I'm low carb (50-70G per day) a bowl of oatmeal with about 30-35 carbs pre workout seems to be all I need to for that extra kick.

Here's what's crazy to me though: Your body has 4 main sources it can use for energy -
Body Fat
Muscle Glycogen
Liver Glycogen
Muscle/Tissue

All 4 can used for energy by the body.

When we talk about "energy levels".. that really is just referring to glycogen - Muscles can store about 350-400g of glycogen (From what I've read from multiple sources), and since protein will convert to glycogen (although not as easily as carbs) then theoretically you should be able to have the same energy levels without carbs.

Doesn't work that way in practice because the process is slower and doesn't work "on demand" in the same way. Keto is fine for daily energy levels once the person is adapted, and excellent for certain endurance tasks like distance running, not so great for anything requiring quick bursts of energy.

ahilton1992

@rheddmobile I'd agree that carbs are practical in that sense.

But I just don't agree with the typical bro science of bulking or that you can't gain muscle while in caloric deficit or caloric maintenance.

rheddmobile

ahilton1992 wrote: »

@rheddmobile I'd agree that carbs are practical in that sense.

But I just don't agree with the typical bro science of bulking or that you can't gain muscle while in caloric deficit or caloric maintenance.

Well... good luck with that! Not all science is bro science, this is just science. Unless you are using drugs, it's nearly impossible for someone to make substantial gains in a deficit unless that person is obese or a newbie, which from your photo it doesn't look like you are either.

AnvilHead

ahilton1992 wrote: »

@rheddmobile I'd agree that carbs are practical in that sense.

But I just don't agree with the typical bro science of bulking or that you can't gain muscle while in caloric deficit or caloric maintenance.

I shared this in the recomp thread a week or so ago:

---

Timely post by Brad Schoenfeld on Facebook today about recomp. Here's the infographic he posted, along with his initial comments on it:


"It absolutely is possible to gain muscle while losing body fat; the extent to which this can be achieved depends on several factors"






A couple of the comments/questions and his responses:

Q: How can you lose fat and build muscle at the same time when one thing requires you to be in a calorie deficit and the other requires you to be in a calorie surplus?

Schoenfeld: Because you don’t need to be in a surplus to gain muscle.

Q: are you saying here that a proper training stimulus and eating enough protein is enough to build muscle?

Schoenfeld: Yep; sufficient to build, not to maximize gainz.

ahilton1992

@rheddmobile Much appreciated. Just a really interesting topic to me - for some reason

RoxieDawn

And I will leave this right here.

https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10611633/gaining-muscle-in-a-deficit/p1

ahilton1992

@RoxieDawn This is fantastic, thank you!

geneticsteacher

Conflicting research on protein intake:

Some exercise researchers say more protein is often better—even in amounts well above the 56 grams a day (and 46 grams, for women) recommended by the Institute of Medicine (IOM). It’s filling, beneficial for appetite suppression and weight loss, and also helps prevent loss of muscle mass and strength as people age, says Dr. Stuart Phillips, a professor of kinesiology at Canada’s McMaster University. Animal sources of protein are also loaded with essential nutrients and amino acids—like iron and folate, which many people don’t get enough of, Phillips says.

For all these reasons, he says that adults, whether they’re sedentary or active, should consume a lot more protein than they probably do—up to .75 grams of protein per pound of body weight every day. For a 150-pound person, that works out to roughly the amount you’d find in a chicken breast or like-size cut of meat, a cup of beans, six ounces of Greek yogurt and eight ounces of milk, according to the USDA’s nutrient database.

vs.

But talk to a disease and longevity researcher, and you’ll get a very different answer—one that sure won’t please Paleo dieters.

“Proteins and their amino acids regulate the two major pro-aging pathways,” says Dr. Valter Longo, a professor of biological science at the University of Southern California. By “up-regulating” those pathways, eating lots of protein seems to promote higher rates of both death and disease, he says.

Longo’s research shows cancer rates increase nearly 400% among Americans who get 20% or more of their daily calories from protein, compared to those who restrict their protein intake to 10% of their daily calories. Risk of mortality also jumps 75% among the heavy protein eaters, his data show.


But Phillips and Longo’s recommendations start to converge for older adults. For people over 65, muscle wasting and loss of strength become important concerns—so much so that eating more protein lowers your risk for both death and disease, Longo says. Once you hit 65, he says it’s fine to consume a bit more protein if you notice you’re starting to drop weight, lose strength or shed muscle mass.

http://time.com/4131682/protein-longevity-paleo/

ahilton1992

Guess you have to pick between living a long healthy life and looking good naked lol

ahilton1992

I think there can be a big difference between eating to get jacked/shredded (whatever you want to call it) vs eating to keep your body as healthy as possible

AnvilHead

ahilton1992 wrote: »

Guess you have to pick between living a long healthy life and looking good naked lol

More like you have to pick between taking the advice of evidence-based sources or woo peddlers.

ahilton1992

@AnvilHead Just saw your last post, and I think that pretty much sums it up.

"Sufficient to build, not to maximize gainz"

ahilton1992

@AnvilHead agreed lol

AnvilHead

ahilton1992 wrote: »

I think there can be a big difference between eating to get jacked/shredded (whatever you want to call it) vs eating to keep your body as healthy as possible

Since you qualified it as "can be" vs. "is", I agree.

If you look at a contest ready bodybuilder, they're far from "as healthy as possible". They're dehydrated (intentionally), starved, bordering on overtrained/exhausted, and pared down to minimum essential bodyfat levels. And if we're talking about professional/non-natty bodybuilders, they're also jacked full of PEDs/cutting agents. There's a reason they can't maintain that condition for more than a week or so at most.

OTOH, there are plenty of men and women who are 'jacked/shredded' (by genpop standards, not competitive bodybuilder standards) who are perfectly healthy, train hard and eat anywhere from ultra-"clean" (albeit often monotonous and bland) to "everything in moderation" diets.

psuLemon

I guess my question is why would you want to use protein to replenish glycogen? If protein is being used for glycogen is not being used to support muscle building.

It is true that the carb support muscle building indirectly. They are anti catabolic and prevent protein breakdown. This in turn allows proteins to be used for muscle building and create new cells.

Additionally carbs have their benefits. Studies have shown that carbohydrates enhance recovery enable you to lift more especially when you're taxing your anaerobic and phosphate systems (explosive power).