DL vs squat

lorrpb
lorrpb Posts: 11,463 Member
Why is DL called a pulling exercise for lower body and squats are pushing ? I know there is a slight difference in using quads vs hams but the overall direction/type of leg movement seems almost the same.

Also, what’s the difference between glute bridge and hip thrust. I tried looking up pictures but still couldn’t discern difference except that hip thrust seemed to use some kind of rack or machine.
Thx!
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Replies

  • Erik8484
    Erik8484 Posts: 458 Member
    Deadlifts are both a push and a pull. The push comes from your legs pushing into the floor, and the pull comes from pulling the bar off the ground. The extent to which it is push vs pull depends on your leverages, and the deadlift variation.

    For example:
    - a trap bar deadlift has your torso more vertical, and is much more of a push with your legs than a pull (in my limited trap bar experience you sort of just hold on).
    - a stiff legged deadlift has your torso more horizontal, and minimises leg drive. It's therefore much less of a push with your legs, and more of a pull.

    If your leverages (shin length, femur length, torso length) are such that your deadlift leaves you with a more vertical / horizontal torso, then your deadlift may be more push / pull respectively.

    From a programming perspective, maybe people call deadlifts a pull because they're heavy and they don't want to do them on the same day as squats? I don't know.
  • Unknown
    edited May 2018
    This content has been removed.
  • lorrpb
    lorrpb Posts: 11,463 Member
    edited May 2018
    JerSchmare wrote: »
    They are completely different exercises. You are pulling weight off the floor in a deadlift. In a squat, you are pushing the weight up.

    Because I’m probably stupid with body mechanics. In both exercises my knees are bent and I’m straightening my legs so the movements seem similar.
  • Erik8484
    Erik8484 Posts: 458 Member
    lorrpb wrote: »
    JerSchmare wrote: »
    They are completely different exercises. You are pulling weight off the floor in a deadlift. In a squat, you are pushing the weight up. Why is that hard to understand? Lol

    Because I’m probably stupid with body mechanics. In both exercises my knees are bent and I’m straightening my legs so the movements seem similar.

    They are similar and I think it's a fair question
  • This content has been removed.
  • lorrpb
    lorrpb Posts: 11,463 Member
    JerSchmare wrote: »
    lorrpb wrote: »
    JerSchmare wrote: »
    They are completely different exercises. You are pulling weight off the floor in a deadlift. In a squat, you are pushing the weight up. Why is that hard to understand? Lol

    Because I’m probably stupid with body mechanics. In both exercises my knees are bent and I’m straightening my legs so the movements seem similar.

    In a squat, your back should be straight, not bent over. In a deadlift, your back is bent over, and you straighten it up as you lift. So, you’re pulling. When you squat, back is straight, and you bend hips and knees, and push up.

    Very different movements. Feel very different. And hit the muscle groups differently. I think both exercises hit every muscle in your body, or damn near.

    I get the pulling with the arm/back but it’s listed as a lower body pull and I just didn’t get the pulling with the legs part.
  • mutantspicy
    mutantspicy Posts: 624 Member
    lorrpb wrote: »
    JerSchmare wrote: »
    lorrpb wrote: »
    JerSchmare wrote: »
    They are completely different exercises. You are pulling weight off the floor in a deadlift. In a squat, you are pushing the weight up. Why is that hard to understand? Lol

    Because I’m probably stupid with body mechanics. In both exercises my knees are bent and I’m straightening my legs so the movements seem similar.

    In a squat, your back should be straight, not bent over. In a deadlift, your back is bent over, and you straighten it up as you lift. So, you’re pulling. When you squat, back is straight, and you bend hips and knees, and push up.

    Very different movements. Feel very different. And hit the muscle groups differently. I think both exercises hit every muscle in your body, or damn near.

    I get the pulling with the arm/back but it’s listed as a lower body pull and I just didn’t get the pulling with the legs part.

    Because of the hip hinge motion, you end up pulling thru your hamstrings. Think of your hip like a pulley, as you pull the one end of the rope your hamstrings it pulls your back up like a pulley This is more pronounced with a stiff leg deadlift. With squats the knee bend is the active part of the lift. With deads the knee bend is not the critical part of the pull, you simply bend them so you can reach the bar. Once you do though, you focus on pulling from your hammies and knees just kinda go for the ride and really don't straighten until the top of the lift.
  • kimny72
    kimny72 Posts: 16,011 Member
    lorrpb wrote: »
    JerSchmare wrote: »
    lorrpb wrote: »
    JerSchmare wrote: »
    They are completely different exercises. You are pulling weight off the floor in a deadlift. In a squat, you are pushing the weight up. Why is that hard to understand? Lol

    Because I’m probably stupid with body mechanics. In both exercises my knees are bent and I’m straightening my legs so the movements seem similar.

    In a squat, your back should be straight, not bent over. In a deadlift, your back is bent over, and you straighten it up as you lift. So, you’re pulling. When you squat, back is straight, and you bend hips and knees, and push up.

    Very different movements. Feel very different. And hit the muscle groups differently. I think both exercises hit every muscle in your body, or damn near.

    I get the pulling with the arm/back but it’s listed as a lower body pull and I just didn’t get the pulling with the legs part.

    If your form is correct, you should feel the effort focused in your hamstrings contracting, pulling your upper body up.
    If you are not keeping your back straight, you might feel it more in your back and arms.
  • lorrpb
    lorrpb Posts: 11,463 Member
    I do DB GOBLET squats and 60” barbell DL. I definitely contract my hamstrings, just never associated that with “pulling” my legs per se. Thx everyone.
  • Stockholm_Andy
    Stockholm_Andy Posts: 803 Member
    edited May 2018
    @lorrpb Don't get too hung up about classifying exercises as push or pull it's not that important what's important is that you do these two excellent full body moves.

    FWIW: Think about when you are at the bottom of both lifts. In the squat the weight is above you so you are pushing it up. In the DL the weight is below you so you are pulling it up.

    They ARE very similar in some ways but in others the feel completely different. Squats I feel very much in my quads. DL in my glutes and hammies.

    From ExRx.net these are the muscles both lift hit. (EDIT: These are both for BB I just notice you are doing goblet squats)

    DL:

    Target Muscles:

    Gluteus Maximus

    Synergists

    Quadriceps
    Adductor Magnus
    Hamstrings (top half)
    Soleus

    Dynamic Stabilizers

    Hamstrings (bottom half)
    Gastrocnemius

    Stabilizers

    Erector Spinae
    Trapezius, Middle
    Trapezius, Upper
    Levator Scapulae
    Rhomboids

    Antagonist Stabilizers

    Rectus Abdominis
    Obliques

    Squat:

    Target Muscles

    Quadriceps

    Synergists

    Gluteus Maximus
    Adductor Magnus
    Soleus

    Dynamic Stabilizers

    Hamstrings
    Gastrocnemius

    Stabilizers

    Erector Spinae

    Antagonist Stabilizers

    Rectus Abdominis
    Obliques
  • RMaxwell90
    RMaxwell90 Posts: 36 Member
    edited May 2018
    The movements are distincly different, but classifying any movement as a "push" or a "pull" is largely just semantics. Muscles can only stretch and contract. You can't push with a rope.

    Coloqually, "pulling" movements are more posterior chain or back focused (deadlifts, rows etc..) and "pushing" movements are more anterior chain focused (high bar/front squats, bench pressing etc...).

    I believe that the distinction is drawn more to facilitate a training split rather than being grounded in anatomical/kinesthetic differences.

    This is mostly just an FYI and my view on it. Train both regularly and increase the load/volume over time and you'll do just fine
  • stanmann571
    stanmann571 Posts: 5,727 Member
    lorrpb wrote: »
    JerSchmare wrote: »
    They are completely different exercises. You are pulling weight off the floor in a deadlift. In a squat, you are pushing the weight up. Why is that hard to understand? Lol

    Because I’m probably stupid with body mechanics. In both exercises my knees are bent and I’m straightening my legs so the movements seem similar.

    No reason to feel bad about asking. If you do regular barbell back squats, vs barbell dead lifts from the floor the moves really are completely different because of the way the weight is loaded onto your body. But I'm guessing you lift with dumbells which is not so obvious from the observer standpoint. Because with DB's you do have to lean your body forward with a squat similar to a dead lift, in order to sit your butt back on the imaginary chair and also keeping your knees from coming way too far forward which is no good. You can seriously hurt your knees if you let them go forward past your toes. So contrary to what someone else said with a squat you do lean forward some or else you will hurt your knees. Which makes them look similar, but with Deads you focus on pulling from the bent over position, and with Squats you focus on pushing up from the bottom of the knee bend.

    Mostly good, but the bolded is nonsense. Keep your knees above your toes(imaginary train tracks) and it doesn't matter how far forward they do or don't go.
  • mutantspicy
    mutantspicy Posts: 624 Member
    lorrpb wrote: »
    JerSchmare wrote: »
    They are completely different exercises. You are pulling weight off the floor in a deadlift. In a squat, you are pushing the weight up. Why is that hard to understand? Lol

    Because I’m probably stupid with body mechanics. In both exercises my knees are bent and I’m straightening my legs so the movements seem similar.

    No reason to feel bad about asking. If you do regular barbell back squats, vs barbell dead lifts from the floor the moves really are completely different because of the way the weight is loaded onto your body. But I'm guessing you lift with dumbells which is not so obvious from the observer standpoint. Because with DB's you do have to lean your body forward with a squat similar to a dead lift, in order to sit your butt back on the imaginary chair and also keeping your knees from coming way too far forward which is no good. You can seriously hurt your knees if you let them go forward past your toes. So contrary to what someone else said with a squat you do lean forward some or else you will hurt your knees. Which makes them look similar, but with Deads you focus on pulling from the bent over position, and with Squats you focus on pushing up from the bottom of the knee bend.

    Mostly good, but the bolded is nonsense. Keep your knees above your toes(imaginary train tracks) and it doesn't matter how far forward they do or don't go.

    Not with DB squats.
  • stanmann571
    stanmann571 Posts: 5,727 Member
    lorrpb wrote: »
    JerSchmare wrote: »
    They are completely different exercises. You are pulling weight off the floor in a deadlift. In a squat, you are pushing the weight up. Why is that hard to understand? Lol

    Because I’m probably stupid with body mechanics. In both exercises my knees are bent and I’m straightening my legs so the movements seem similar.

    No reason to feel bad about asking. If you do regular barbell back squats, vs barbell dead lifts from the floor the moves really are completely different because of the way the weight is loaded onto your body. But I'm guessing you lift with dumbells which is not so obvious from the observer standpoint. Because with DB's you do have to lean your body forward with a squat similar to a dead lift, in order to sit your butt back on the imaginary chair and also keeping your knees from coming way too far forward which is no good. You can seriously hurt your knees if you let them go forward past your toes. So contrary to what someone else said with a squat you do lean forward some or else you will hurt your knees. Which makes them look similar, but with Deads you focus on pulling from the bent over position, and with Squats you focus on pushing up from the bottom of the knee bend.

    Mostly good, but the bolded is nonsense. Keep your knees above your toes(imaginary train tracks) and it doesn't matter how far forward they do or don't go.

    Not with DB squats.

    Even with DB squats.

    A squat is a squat. BW, DB, KB, Barbell.
  • mutantspicy
    mutantspicy Posts: 624 Member
    edited May 2018
    lorrpb wrote: »
    JerSchmare wrote: »
    They are completely different exercises. You are pulling weight off the floor in a deadlift. In a squat, you are pushing the weight up. Why is that hard to understand? Lol

    Because I’m probably stupid with body mechanics. In both exercises my knees are bent and I’m straightening my legs so the movements seem similar.

    No reason to feel bad about asking. If you do regular barbell back squats, vs barbell dead lifts from the floor the moves really are completely different because of the way the weight is loaded onto your body. But I'm guessing you lift with dumbells which is not so obvious from the observer standpoint. Because with DB's you do have to lean your body forward with a squat similar to a dead lift, in order to sit your butt back on the imaginary chair and also keeping your knees from coming way too far forward which is no good. You can seriously hurt your knees if you let them go forward past your toes. So contrary to what someone else said with a squat you do lean forward some or else you will hurt your knees. Which makes them look similar, but with Deads you focus on pulling from the bent over position, and with Squats you focus on pushing up from the bottom of the knee bend.

    Mostly good, but the bolded is nonsense. Keep your knees above your toes(imaginary train tracks) and it doesn't matter how far forward they do or don't go.

    Not with DB squats.

    Even with DB squats.

    A squat is a squat. BW, DB, KB, Barbell.

    Every guide every guide every where says keep your knees behind or at your toes. There's a reason.
    http://www.stack.com/a/dumbbell-squat
    https://www.bodybuilding.com/exercises/dumbbell-squat
  • mutantspicy
    mutantspicy Posts: 624 Member
    ????
  • stanmann571
    stanmann571 Posts: 5,727 Member
    lorrpb wrote: »
    JerSchmare wrote: »
    They are completely different exercises. You are pulling weight off the floor in a deadlift. In a squat, you are pushing the weight up. Why is that hard to understand? Lol

    Because I’m probably stupid with body mechanics. In both exercises my knees are bent and I’m straightening my legs so the movements seem similar.

    No reason to feel bad about asking. If you do regular barbell back squats, vs barbell dead lifts from the floor the moves really are completely different because of the way the weight is loaded onto your body. But I'm guessing you lift with dumbells which is not so obvious from the observer standpoint. Because with DB's you do have to lean your body forward with a squat similar to a dead lift, in order to sit your butt back on the imaginary chair and also keeping your knees from coming way too far forward which is no good. You can seriously hurt your knees if you let them go forward past your toes. So contrary to what someone else said with a squat you do lean forward some or else you will hurt your knees. Which makes them look similar, but with Deads you focus on pulling from the bent over position, and with Squats you focus on pushing up from the bottom of the knee bend.

    Mostly good, but the bolded is nonsense. Keep your knees above your toes(imaginary train tracks) and it doesn't matter how far forward they do or don't go.

    Not with DB squats.

    Even with DB squats.

    A squat is a squat. BW, DB, KB, Barbell.

    Every guide every guide every where says keep your knees behind or at your toes. There's a reason.
    http://www.stack.com/a/dumbbell-squat
    https://www.bodybuilding.com/exercises/dumbbell-squat

    There are literally thousands of articles addressing that myth.

    From your source.

    http://www.stack.com/a/squat-with-knees-past-toes
  • stanmann571
    stanmann571 Posts: 5,727 Member
    edited May 2018
    In response to the OP

    Part of it has to do with where the weight is, and part of it has to do with the inevitable consequences of that location on how the head/shoulders/hips line up and move.
  • stanmann571
    stanmann571 Posts: 5,727 Member
    edited May 2018
    lorrpb wrote: »
    JerSchmare wrote: »
    They are completely different exercises. You are pulling weight off the floor in a deadlift. In a squat, you are pushing the weight up. Why is that hard to understand? Lol

    Because I’m probably stupid with body mechanics. In both exercises my knees are bent and I’m straightening my legs so the movements seem similar.

    No reason to feel bad about asking. If you do regular barbell back squats, vs barbell dead lifts from the floor the moves really are completely different because of the way the weight is loaded onto your body. But I'm guessing you lift with dumbells which is not so obvious from the observer standpoint. Because with DB's you do have to lean your body forward with a squat similar to a dead lift, in order to sit your butt back on the imaginary chair and also keeping your knees from coming way too far forward which is no good. You can seriously hurt your knees if you let them go forward past your toes. So contrary to what someone else said with a squat you do lean forward some or else you will hurt your knees. Which makes them look similar, but with Deads you focus on pulling from the bent over position, and with Squats you focus on pushing up from the bottom of the knee bend.

    Mostly good, but the bolded is nonsense. Keep your knees above your toes(imaginary train tracks) and it doesn't matter how far forward they do or don't go.

    Not with DB squats.

    Even with DB squats.

    A squat is a squat. BW, DB, KB, Barbell.

    Every guide every guide every where says keep your knees behind or at your toes. There's a reason.
    http://www.stack.com/a/dumbbell-squat
    https://www.bodybuilding.com/exercises/dumbbell-squat

    There are literally thousands of articles addressing that myth.

    From your source.

    http://www.stack.com/a/squat-with-knees-past-toes

    Saying its safe for people with long femurs to slip past the toes "a bit" is long way off from saying its ok to let your knees go forward as much as you want. In fact, he is saying the exact opposite as he should. There's no myth and nothing's been debunked.

    LOL. Pay attention to the important parts of the lift and let the unimportant ones do what they will do.

    Important
    Head/neck alignment
    Back/hip alignment
    knee tracking between toes

    unimportant
    Knees past toes
    foot angle

    IN other words, if your knees go past your toes, but your weight is mid foot or heel. NBD.

    If you stand feet straight ahead or pigeon toed, as long as your knees stay square with your toes, and your weight stays mid foot or behind. NBD.

    Don't sweat the small stuff.
  • RMaxwell90
    RMaxwell90 Posts: 36 Member
    Article that goes into some details about this topic, with sources at the end.

    https://squatuniversity.com/2016/01/29/can-the-knees-go-over-the-toes-debunking-squat-myths/

    From the article:

    "While shear forces have been shown to increase in the deep squat position with forward knees, the body can handle them appropriately without risk for injury (2). If done properly with a “hip first” approach, the knees going past the toes is not only safe but necessary."

    I also have seen data showing a lower incidence of knee injuries among Olympic weightlifters compared to athletes of other sports (soccer, American football etc...). One would expect the opposite to be true if they were at high risk of knee injury. I'll try and find those studies too...
  • TR0berts
    TR0berts Posts: 7,739 Member
    It's because the deadlift is mis-called a "pull." This is because it tends to incorporate more posterior chain (hamstring, glutes, spinal erectors...) than squats. Note that I said "tends" - some people (especially dependent upon squat/dl styles) will get similar activation from those muscle groups. In addition, that the bar (or KBs, dbs, whatever) is hanging down, it seems like a pulling motion, when it's really not.
  • QuikDogs
    QuikDogs Posts: 194 Member
    I wouldn't worry about the semantics too much. Just do them both. And do arm-something too, if not bench press then something. You'll do fine.

    (75kg squat - 45kg bench - 125kg deadlift | USAPL | RAW Masters 3a)
  • lorrpb
    lorrpb Posts: 11,463 Member
    edited May 2018
    see next
  • lorrpb
    lorrpb Posts: 11,463 Member
    edited May 2018
    RMaxwell90 wrote: »
    The movements are distincly different, but classifying any movement as a "push" or a "pull" is largely just semantics. Muscles can only stretch and contract. You can't push with a rope.

    Coloqually, "pulling" movements are more posterior chain or back focused (deadlifts, rows etc..) and "pushing" movements are more anterior chain focused (high bar/front squats, bench pressing etc...).

    I believe that the distinction is drawn more to facilitate a training split rather than being grounded in anatomical/kinesthetic differences.

    This is mostly just an FYI and my view on it. Train both regularly and increase the load/volume over time and you'll do just fine

    OK, I was just asking because an article said that a balanced workout was upper & lower with push and pull for each. The only pull exercises for lower body were DL and glute bridge/hip thruster. Just trying to understand what is meant because I often see these terms used on here. The upper body is a little more intuitive.

    PS I do both DL and squats every weight training day, which is usually 3x week. These are the exercises that will help keep most people out of a nursing home!
  • RMaxwell90
    RMaxwell90 Posts: 36 Member
    OK, I was just asking because an article said that a balanced workout was upper & lower with push and pull for each. The only pull exercises for lower body were DL and glute bridge/hip thruster. Just trying to understand what is meant because I often see these terms used on here. The upper body is a little more intuitive.

    For a push/pull lower body I would understand that as including a squat type movement and a hip hinge type movement.
    Examples: (push / pull)
    Back squat / RDL
    Bulgarian split squat / sumo DL
    Front Squat / stiff leg DL

    Other lower pulling movements could be hip thrusts, kettlebell swings, good mornings, and all the variations of each. There are dozens of deadlift variations out there.

    I do like the structure of that particular full body split. It sounds like it would be upper push, lower push, upper pull, lower pull or something like that?

    Generally the biggest difference is that squats (push) require some forward knee travel (the amount depends on the movement). Maybe think of it as a squat/hinge split for lower body?

    Hope some of my rambling makes sense haha
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