Vegan/Plant Based not as effective?

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Replies

  • veganbaum
    veganbaum Posts: 1,865 Member
    There are plenty of plant based (which is not the same as vegan) elite athletes and bodybuilders out there. There is no question that you can get enough protein for health, performance and aesthetics on a plant based diet.

    But if you're going to limit your food sources because you think you don't like a lot of things, that will make things more difficult for you. Maybe you need to expand your horizons and try all the different types of legumes out there prepared in different ways. The same with tofu - taste and texture vary with how it's prepared and with what it's prepared, as well as whether it's extra firm, firm, soft. But tofu isn't necessary. Seitan has been mentioned, tempeh, plant-based meats that are made with combinations of seitan, soy, pea protein. There's all sorts of stuff out there.
  • SCoil123
    SCoil123 Posts: 2,111 Member
    anicoletfit wrote: »
    amusedmonkey wrote: »
    Why are you interested in a plant-based diet? Is it because you believe it's healthier or is your stance ethical?

    Some of both!
    My main thing is with eczema and asthma if plant Based/vegan is better for that.
    I really want to heal this inflammation (or at least reduce it), and all the research I’ve done suggests to go plant Based.

    As of now, I would want to go plant Based for inflammatory purposes, just don’t want to be skinny fat from a lesser protein diet.

    And it just seems like everyone says plant based/veg is best for inflammation, so that’s why I’ve been shooting for this opposes to a different “diet”.

    I was actually placed on autoimmune paleo diet in the past for inflammation and it did help. It’s definitely not plant based, or even close. I struggled to maintain such a restrictive diet so now I eat that way only about 75% of the time.

    As to vegetarian for ethical reasons my 16 year old step daughter and 13 year old son are both vegetarian. While soy and legumes aren’t their favorite foods they both eat them along side other foods they do enjoy more to maintain balanced nutrition. They aren’t vegan so they also eat eggs and dairy. Both are healthy and maintain muscle. Both swim and play water polo. You can work things like beans and tofu into dishes where other flavors are highlighted
  • SCoil123
    SCoil123 Posts: 2,111 Member
    janejellyroll wrote: »
    Panini911 wrote: »
    While I am NOT vegetarian or vegan, many days I don't eat meat. I also do not eat tofu. rarely buy organic. I still get above my protein recommendations even on those days. I just have to pre-log and find some "secret weapons".

    I eat a lot of quinoa (in salad, in soup), lentils, black beans. slowly bringing almonds back into my diet. I make my own protein bars using high protein plant based protein powders. I shop at places like Bulk Barn to save money especially on lentils and quinoa.

    I am not sure if you would eat eggs, but i find them to be a super good bang for my calorie buck when it comes to protein. Maybe see about finding some nice happy chickens living freely on a farm VS store bought (if the ethics are a concern).

    It's incredibly difficult to find a farm source for eggs that doesn't involve both the premature death of males (either they're culling at the farm or purchasing chicks from a source that culls) and female chickens being killed when their production declines. Farms need to make money and having to feed roosters for their natural life along with the older, less productive females is going to be an issue for the bottom line.


    So while the "nice happy chickens" on a farm image is nice, those who are avoiding eggs for ethical reasons are unlikely to find a farm that shares their ethics on how it is appropriate to treat chickens.

    Judging from OP's comments to date, I don't think she falls in the category of having ethical concerns though.

    I think this depends on where you live. In my area there are three households I know who raise chickens and sell their eggs locally. These are homestead families in a mountain community. I realize I’m a city this isn’t likely available
  • anicoletfit
    anicoletfit Posts: 7 Member
    Okay, so I guess it’s just experimenting, being sure to plan ahead, and openness to trying out new recipes!👍
  • janejellyroll
    janejellyroll Posts: 25,763 Member
    SCoil123 wrote: »
    janejellyroll wrote: »
    Panini911 wrote: »
    While I am NOT vegetarian or vegan, many days I don't eat meat. I also do not eat tofu. rarely buy organic. I still get above my protein recommendations even on those days. I just have to pre-log and find some "secret weapons".

    I eat a lot of quinoa (in salad, in soup), lentils, black beans. slowly bringing almonds back into my diet. I make my own protein bars using high protein plant based protein powders. I shop at places like Bulk Barn to save money especially on lentils and quinoa.

    I am not sure if you would eat eggs, but i find them to be a super good bang for my calorie buck when it comes to protein. Maybe see about finding some nice happy chickens living freely on a farm VS store bought (if the ethics are a concern).

    It's incredibly difficult to find a farm source for eggs that doesn't involve both the premature death of males (either they're culling at the farm or purchasing chicks from a source that culls) and female chickens being killed when their production declines. Farms need to make money and having to feed roosters for their natural life along with the older, less productive females is going to be an issue for the bottom line.


    So while the "nice happy chickens" on a farm image is nice, those who are avoiding eggs for ethical reasons are unlikely to find a farm that shares their ethics on how it is appropriate to treat chickens.

    Judging from OP's comments to date, I don't think she falls in the category of having ethical concerns though.

    I think this depends on where you live. In my area there are three households I know who raise chickens and sell their eggs locally. These are homestead families in a mountain community. I realize I’m a city this isn’t likely available

    Homesteaders still have to deal with the issue of what to do with roosters and aging layers. I'm also surprised that you know of three homesteaders who raise chickens yet never kill chickens for meat. Most homesteaders I know are using their chickens for eggs and meat.
  • SCoil123
    SCoil123 Posts: 2,111 Member
    edited July 2018
    janejellyroll wrote: »
    SCoil123 wrote: »
    janejellyroll wrote: »
    Panini911 wrote: »
    While I am NOT vegetarian or vegan, many days I don't eat meat. I also do not eat tofu. rarely buy organic. I still get above my protein recommendations even on those days. I just have to pre-log and find some "secret weapons".

    I eat a lot of quinoa (in salad, in soup), lentils, black beans. slowly bringing almonds back into my diet. I make my own protein bars using high protein plant based protein powders. I shop at places like Bulk Barn to save money especially on lentils and quinoa.

    I am not sure if you would eat eggs, but i find them to be a super good bang for my calorie buck when it comes to protein. Maybe see about finding some nice happy chickens living freely on a farm VS store bought (if the ethics are a concern).

    It's incredibly difficult to find a farm source for eggs that doesn't involve both the premature death of males (either they're culling at the farm or purchasing chicks from a source that culls) and female chickens being killed when their production declines. Farms need to make money and having to feed roosters for their natural life along with the older, less productive females is going to be an issue for the bottom line.


    So while the "nice happy chickens" on a farm image is nice, those who are avoiding eggs for ethical reasons are unlikely to find a farm that shares their ethics on how it is appropriate to treat chickens.

    Judging from OP's comments to date, I don't think she falls in the category of having ethical concerns though.

    I think this depends on where you live. In my area there are three households I know who raise chickens and sell their eggs locally. These are homestead families in a mountain community. I realize I’m a city this isn’t likely available

    Homesteaders still have to deal with the issue of what to do with roosters and aging layers. I'm also surprised that you know of three homesteaders who raise chickens yet never kill chickens for meat. Most homesteaders I know are using their chickens for eggs and meat.

    I’m not sure why they don’t kill them or even know for sure if they do. I don’t believe I even addressed that in my comment. I do know that in our local community groups they all sell fresh eggs, veggies, herbs, and homemade jams during different times in the year.
  • SCoil123
    SCoil123 Posts: 2,111 Member
    janejellyroll wrote: »
    SCoil123 wrote: »
    janejellyroll wrote: »
    SCoil123 wrote: »
    janejellyroll wrote: »
    Panini911 wrote: »
    While I am NOT vegetarian or vegan, many days I don't eat meat. I also do not eat tofu. rarely buy organic. I still get above my protein recommendations even on those days. I just have to pre-log and find some "secret weapons".

    I eat a lot of quinoa (in salad, in soup), lentils, black beans. slowly bringing almonds back into my diet. I make my own protein bars using high protein plant based protein powders. I shop at places like Bulk Barn to save money especially on lentils and quinoa.

    I am not sure if you would eat eggs, but i find them to be a super good bang for my calorie buck when it comes to protein. Maybe see about finding some nice happy chickens living freely on a farm VS store bought (if the ethics are a concern).

    It's incredibly difficult to find a farm source for eggs that doesn't involve both the premature death of males (either they're culling at the farm or purchasing chicks from a source that culls) and female chickens being killed when their production declines. Farms need to make money and having to feed roosters for their natural life along with the older, less productive females is going to be an issue for the bottom line.


    So while the "nice happy chickens" on a farm image is nice, those who are avoiding eggs for ethical reasons are unlikely to find a farm that shares their ethics on how it is appropriate to treat chickens.

    Judging from OP's comments to date, I don't think she falls in the category of having ethical concerns though.

    I think this depends on where you live. In my area there are three households I know who raise chickens and sell their eggs locally. These are homestead families in a mountain community. I realize I’m a city this isn’t likely available

    Homesteaders still have to deal with the issue of what to do with roosters and aging layers. I'm also surprised that you know of three homesteaders who raise chickens yet never kill chickens for meat. Most homesteaders I know are using their chickens for eggs and meat.

    I’m not sure why they don’t kill them or even know for sure if they do. I don’t believe I even addressed that in my comment. I do know that in our local community groups they all sell fresh eggs, veggies, herbs, and homemade jams during different times in the year.

    It's something that would have to be addressed if one was arguing that these eggs were an alternative for those with ethical concerns about eggs. That was the initial claim I was addressing -- that those with ethical concerns could simply look for farms with "nice happy chickens living freely."

    Homesteaders who are practicing the "culling" of male chicks (or buying chicks from suppliers who do -- which is all of them), killing aging chickens with declining productivity, or killing chickens for meat wouldn't be a viable alternative for those avoiding eggs for ethical reasons. My point is that it will be hard for someone who thinks of chickens as appropriate objects of moral concern to find a farm that shares those values -- whether it's a factory farm or a small homestead one.

    Again, not the situation that OP is apparently in. But I do hear the "just look for a place with happy chickens" comment relatively often and it's not a solution for someone committed to vegan ethics.

    All I commented was that you can find homestead and humanely collected eggs depending on location. Some locations this likely isn’t easy or an option at all.

    You, then proceeded to make comments about killing the chicken that had nothing to do with what I commented on. And I don’t know if they also kill their animals. The one, out of 3 in our community group, that I have a close personal relationship with I suspect does not. Given that her hens and rooster all have names and she treats them as pets I make the assumption she is very attached to them. I’ve never asked though.

    And I never made a “happy chickens” comment.
  • ruqayyahsmum
    ruqayyahsmum Posts: 1,513 Member
    janejellyroll wrote: »
    ceiswyn wrote: »
    anicoletfit wrote: »
    kshama2001 wrote: »

    I want to make sure you are vetting your sources of information appropriately. Would you please post a few links to where you are getting your information about plant based helping eczema and asthma?


    Mainly YouTube, and google, but I know some can be very bias, so I try to be aware but open.
    Plantbasednews

    So... two completely unreliable sources and one obviously biased one, and you’re taking that as a good reason to change your diet to one that will be difficult for you and/or make you miserable.

    I mean, I’m mostly vegetarian, but I like tofu and legumes and the rest. If someone were suggesting I change my diet to one that mostly involves stuff I didn’t like, my standards of evidence would be kinda higher than ‘YouTube and Google’.

    I mean, YouTube and Google aren't really sources at all, IMO. YouTube is a place where people can share content and the content varies from excellent to mind-blowingly terrible. You have to do your own due dilligence, YouTube isn't doing any accuracy checks before allowing someone to post.

    Google is a search engine. Yes, you can use it to find accurate information, but you can also use it to find blog posts about how sunscreen is a governmental plot to change our DNA. Again, you have to use your discernment to determine what claims to trust and what is garbage.

    Treating either YouTube or Google as a traditional "source," where you assume some form of editing or quality control is going on is a road to disaster.

    (Not directed at @ceiswyn - more for OP).

    An ex of mine became terribly anxious and I would say depressed because he saw on YouTube a guy claiming the world's major countries were run by the Illuminati and were going to get rid of money and instead have us all microchipped and you would be scanned at the supermarket before being told what you could buy.
    Nothing I said about how anyone can say all-sorts of *kitten* on YouTube made a difference, he believed it because it was on there.

    It took 2 years before he finally agreed it wasn't going to happen and even longer for his mental health to improve
  • DaddieCat
    DaddieCat Posts: 3,643 Member
    ruqayyahsmum wrote: »
    janejellyroll wrote: »
    ceiswyn wrote: »
    anicoletfit wrote: »
    kshama2001 wrote: »

    I want to make sure you are vetting your sources of information appropriately. Would you please post a few links to where you are getting your information about plant based helping eczema and asthma?


    Mainly YouTube, and google, but I know some can be very bias, so I try to be aware but open.
    Plantbasednews

    So... two completely unreliable sources and one obviously biased one, and you’re taking that as a good reason to change your diet to one that will be difficult for you and/or make you miserable.

    I mean, I’m mostly vegetarian, but I like tofu and legumes and the rest. If someone were suggesting I change my diet to one that mostly involves stuff I didn’t like, my standards of evidence would be kinda higher than ‘YouTube and Google’.

    I mean, YouTube and Google aren't really sources at all, IMO. YouTube is a place where people can share content and the content varies from excellent to mind-blowingly terrible. You have to do your own due dilligence, YouTube isn't doing any accuracy checks before allowing someone to post.

    Google is a search engine. Yes, you can use it to find accurate information, but you can also use it to find blog posts about how sunscreen is a governmental plot to change our DNA. Again, you have to use your discernment to determine what claims to trust and what is garbage.

    Treating either YouTube or Google as a traditional "source," where you assume some form of editing or quality control is going on is a road to disaster.

    (Not directed at @ceiswyn - more for OP).

    An ex of mine became terribly anxious and I would say depressed because he saw on YouTube a guy claiming the world's major countries were run by the Illuminati and were going to get rid of money and instead have us all microchipped and you would be scanned at the supermarket before being told what you could buy.
    Nothing I said about how anyone can say all-sorts of *kitten* on YouTube made a difference, he believed it because it was on there.

    It took 2 years before he finally agreed it wasn't going to happen and even longer for his mental health to improve

    Isn't this happening right now? I mean, Apple Pay, Google Pay... it's near field communication.. which is a microchip. It's instant payment and the actual use of currency is declining in favor of electronic fund transfers.

    *cue twilight zone theme*
  • janejellyroll
    janejellyroll Posts: 25,763 Member
    SCoil123 wrote: »
    janejellyroll wrote: »
    SCoil123 wrote: »
    janejellyroll wrote: »
    SCoil123 wrote: »
    janejellyroll wrote: »
    Panini911 wrote: »
    While I am NOT vegetarian or vegan, many days I don't eat meat. I also do not eat tofu. rarely buy organic. I still get above my protein recommendations even on those days. I just have to pre-log and find some "secret weapons".

    I eat a lot of quinoa (in salad, in soup), lentils, black beans. slowly bringing almonds back into my diet. I make my own protein bars using high protein plant based protein powders. I shop at places like Bulk Barn to save money especially on lentils and quinoa.

    I am not sure if you would eat eggs, but i find them to be a super good bang for my calorie buck when it comes to protein. Maybe see about finding some nice happy chickens living freely on a farm VS store bought (if the ethics are a concern).

    It's incredibly difficult to find a farm source for eggs that doesn't involve both the premature death of males (either they're culling at the farm or purchasing chicks from a source that culls) and female chickens being killed when their production declines. Farms need to make money and having to feed roosters for their natural life along with the older, less productive females is going to be an issue for the bottom line.


    So while the "nice happy chickens" on a farm image is nice, those who are avoiding eggs for ethical reasons are unlikely to find a farm that shares their ethics on how it is appropriate to treat chickens.

    Judging from OP's comments to date, I don't think she falls in the category of having ethical concerns though.

    I think this depends on where you live. In my area there are three households I know who raise chickens and sell their eggs locally. These are homestead families in a mountain community. I realize I’m a city this isn’t likely available

    Homesteaders still have to deal with the issue of what to do with roosters and aging layers. I'm also surprised that you know of three homesteaders who raise chickens yet never kill chickens for meat. Most homesteaders I know are using their chickens for eggs and meat.

    I’m not sure why they don’t kill them or even know for sure if they do. I don’t believe I even addressed that in my comment. I do know that in our local community groups they all sell fresh eggs, veggies, herbs, and homemade jams during different times in the year.

    It's something that would have to be addressed if one was arguing that these eggs were an alternative for those with ethical concerns about eggs. That was the initial claim I was addressing -- that those with ethical concerns could simply look for farms with "nice happy chickens living freely."

    Homesteaders who are practicing the "culling" of male chicks (or buying chicks from suppliers who do -- which is all of them), killing aging chickens with declining productivity, or killing chickens for meat wouldn't be a viable alternative for those avoiding eggs for ethical reasons. My point is that it will be hard for someone who thinks of chickens as appropriate objects of moral concern to find a farm that shares those values -- whether it's a factory farm or a small homestead one.

    Again, not the situation that OP is apparently in. But I do hear the "just look for a place with happy chickens" comment relatively often and it's not a solution for someone committed to vegan ethics.

    All I commented was that you can find homestead and humanely collected eggs depending on location. Some locations this likely isn’t easy or an option at all.

    You, then proceeded to make comments about killing the chicken that had nothing to do with what I commented on. And I don’t know if they also kill their animals. The one, out of 3 in our community group, that I have a close personal relationship with I suspect does not. Given that her hens and rooster all have names and she treats them as pets I make the assumption she is very attached to them. I’ve never asked though.

    And I never made a “happy chickens” comment.

    I know you didn't, but the conversation you entered began with someone encouraging those with ethical concerns that prevented them from eating eggs to seek out "happy chickens." This conversation began in that context and that is what I was responding to.

    If you don't know if the people you're buying from kill animals for meat or engage in/support the culling of male chicks, then their existence isn't really relevant to what was being discussed -- sourcing of eggs for people who object to these practices.

    I understand they may be a better option for *you* or people who simply wish to avoid some of the more dramatic exploitation involved in factory farming, but that's not what was being discussed.

    I've known people (both personally and online) who give their chickens names and seem to treat them very well and still have no particular issues with either supporting the culling of male chicks (either practicing it themselves or supporting businesses that do) or even killing chickens for meat. These aren't mutually exclusive states. People are capable of becoming quite attached to animals even when they're ultimately using them as a means to an end.

  • SCoil123
    SCoil123 Posts: 2,111 Member
    janejellyroll wrote: »
    SCoil123 wrote: »
    janejellyroll wrote: »
    SCoil123 wrote: »
    janejellyroll wrote: »
    SCoil123 wrote: »
    janejellyroll wrote: »
    Panini911 wrote: »
    While I am NOT vegetarian or vegan, many days I don't eat meat. I also do not eat tofu. rarely buy organic. I still get above my protein recommendations even on those days. I just have to pre-log and find some "secret weapons".

    I eat a lot of quinoa (in salad, in soup), lentils, black beans. slowly bringing almonds back into my diet. I make my own protein bars using high protein plant based protein powders. I shop at places like Bulk Barn to save money especially on lentils and quinoa.

    I am not sure if you would eat eggs, but i find them to be a super good bang for my calorie buck when it comes to protein. Maybe see about finding some nice happy chickens living freely on a farm VS store bought (if the ethics are a concern).

    It's incredibly difficult to find a farm source for eggs that doesn't involve both the premature death of males (either they're culling at the farm or purchasing chicks from a source that culls) and female chickens being killed when their production declines. Farms need to make money and having to feed roosters for their natural life along with the older, less productive females is going to be an issue for the bottom line.


    So while the "nice happy chickens" on a farm image is nice, those who are avoiding eggs for ethical reasons are unlikely to find a farm that shares their ethics on how it is appropriate to treat chickens.

    Judging from OP's comments to date, I don't think she falls in the category of having ethical concerns though.

    I think this depends on where you live. In my area there are three households I know who raise chickens and sell their eggs locally. These are homestead families in a mountain community. I realize I’m a city this isn’t likely available

    Homesteaders still have to deal with the issue of what to do with roosters and aging layers. I'm also surprised that you know of three homesteaders who raise chickens yet never kill chickens for meat. Most homesteaders I know are using their chickens for eggs and meat.

    I’m not sure why they don’t kill them or even know for sure if they do. I don’t believe I even addressed that in my comment. I do know that in our local community groups they all sell fresh eggs, veggies, herbs, and homemade jams during different times in the year.

    It's something that would have to be addressed if one was arguing that these eggs were an alternative for those with ethical concerns about eggs. That was the initial claim I was addressing -- that those with ethical concerns could simply look for farms with "nice happy chickens living freely."

    Homesteaders who are practicing the "culling" of male chicks (or buying chicks from suppliers who do -- which is all of them), killing aging chickens with declining productivity, or killing chickens for meat wouldn't be a viable alternative for those avoiding eggs for ethical reasons. My point is that it will be hard for someone who thinks of chickens as appropriate objects of moral concern to find a farm that shares those values -- whether it's a factory farm or a small homestead one.

    Again, not the situation that OP is apparently in. But I do hear the "just look for a place with happy chickens" comment relatively often and it's not a solution for someone committed to vegan ethics.

    All I commented was that you can find homestead and humanely collected eggs depending on location. Some locations this likely isn’t easy or an option at all.

    You, then proceeded to make comments about killing the chicken that had nothing to do with what I commented on. And I don’t know if they also kill their animals. The one, out of 3 in our community group, that I have a close personal relationship with I suspect does not. Given that her hens and rooster all have names and she treats them as pets I make the assumption she is very attached to them. I’ve never asked though.

    And I never made a “happy chickens” comment.

    I know you didn't, but the conversation you entered began with someone encouraging those with ethical concerns that prevented them from eating eggs to seek out "happy chickens." This conversation began in that context and that is what I was responding to.

    If you don't know if the people you're buying from kill animals for meat or engage in/support the culling of male chicks, then their existence isn't really relevant to what was being discussed -- sourcing of eggs for people who object to these practices.

    I understand they may be a better option for *you* or people who simply wish to avoid some of the more dramatic exploitation involved in factory farming, but that's not what was being discussed.

    I've known people (both personally and online) who give their chickens names and seem to treat them very well and still have no particular issues with either supporting the culling of male chicks (either practicing it themselves or supporting businesses that do) or even killing chickens for meat. These aren't mutually exclusive states. People are capable of becoming quite attached to animals even when they're ultimately using them as a means to an end.

    You responded to the wrong person it seems then. Since my comment was specifically regarding more options depending on location and that isn’t what you were addressing.

    Side note - I asked my friend and she seemed mortified at the idea of eating “her girls”. She is not vegetarian but her chickens are family, just like her dogs apparently
  • janejellyroll
    janejellyroll Posts: 25,763 Member
    SCoil123 wrote: »
    janejellyroll wrote: »
    SCoil123 wrote: »
    janejellyroll wrote: »
    SCoil123 wrote: »
    janejellyroll wrote: »
    SCoil123 wrote: »
    janejellyroll wrote: »
    Panini911 wrote: »
    While I am NOT vegetarian or vegan, many days I don't eat meat. I also do not eat tofu. rarely buy organic. I still get above my protein recommendations even on those days. I just have to pre-log and find some "secret weapons".

    I eat a lot of quinoa (in salad, in soup), lentils, black beans. slowly bringing almonds back into my diet. I make my own protein bars using high protein plant based protein powders. I shop at places like Bulk Barn to save money especially on lentils and quinoa.

    I am not sure if you would eat eggs, but i find them to be a super good bang for my calorie buck when it comes to protein. Maybe see about finding some nice happy chickens living freely on a farm VS store bought (if the ethics are a concern).

    It's incredibly difficult to find a farm source for eggs that doesn't involve both the premature death of males (either they're culling at the farm or purchasing chicks from a source that culls) and female chickens being killed when their production declines. Farms need to make money and having to feed roosters for their natural life along with the older, less productive females is going to be an issue for the bottom line.


    So while the "nice happy chickens" on a farm image is nice, those who are avoiding eggs for ethical reasons are unlikely to find a farm that shares their ethics on how it is appropriate to treat chickens.

    Judging from OP's comments to date, I don't think she falls in the category of having ethical concerns though.

    I think this depends on where you live. In my area there are three households I know who raise chickens and sell their eggs locally. These are homestead families in a mountain community. I realize I’m a city this isn’t likely available

    Homesteaders still have to deal with the issue of what to do with roosters and aging layers. I'm also surprised that you know of three homesteaders who raise chickens yet never kill chickens for meat. Most homesteaders I know are using their chickens for eggs and meat.

    I’m not sure why they don’t kill them or even know for sure if they do. I don’t believe I even addressed that in my comment. I do know that in our local community groups they all sell fresh eggs, veggies, herbs, and homemade jams during different times in the year.

    It's something that would have to be addressed if one was arguing that these eggs were an alternative for those with ethical concerns about eggs. That was the initial claim I was addressing -- that those with ethical concerns could simply look for farms with "nice happy chickens living freely."

    Homesteaders who are practicing the "culling" of male chicks (or buying chicks from suppliers who do -- which is all of them), killing aging chickens with declining productivity, or killing chickens for meat wouldn't be a viable alternative for those avoiding eggs for ethical reasons. My point is that it will be hard for someone who thinks of chickens as appropriate objects of moral concern to find a farm that shares those values -- whether it's a factory farm or a small homestead one.

    Again, not the situation that OP is apparently in. But I do hear the "just look for a place with happy chickens" comment relatively often and it's not a solution for someone committed to vegan ethics.

    All I commented was that you can find homestead and humanely collected eggs depending on location. Some locations this likely isn’t easy or an option at all.

    You, then proceeded to make comments about killing the chicken that had nothing to do with what I commented on. And I don’t know if they also kill their animals. The one, out of 3 in our community group, that I have a close personal relationship with I suspect does not. Given that her hens and rooster all have names and she treats them as pets I make the assumption she is very attached to them. I’ve never asked though.

    And I never made a “happy chickens” comment.

    I know you didn't, but the conversation you entered began with someone encouraging those with ethical concerns that prevented them from eating eggs to seek out "happy chickens." This conversation began in that context and that is what I was responding to.

    If you don't know if the people you're buying from kill animals for meat or engage in/support the culling of male chicks, then their existence isn't really relevant to what was being discussed -- sourcing of eggs for people who object to these practices.

    I understand they may be a better option for *you* or people who simply wish to avoid some of the more dramatic exploitation involved in factory farming, but that's not what was being discussed.

    I've known people (both personally and online) who give their chickens names and seem to treat them very well and still have no particular issues with either supporting the culling of male chicks (either practicing it themselves or supporting businesses that do) or even killing chickens for meat. These aren't mutually exclusive states. People are capable of becoming quite attached to animals even when they're ultimately using them as a means to an end.

    You responded to the wrong person it seems then. Since my comment was specifically regarding more options depending on location and that isn’t what you were addressing.

    Side note - I asked my friend and she seemed mortified at the idea of eating “her girls”. She is not vegetarian but her chickens are family, just like her dogs apparently

    You said my concerns, the specific concerns that I brought up about "happy chickens," would depend on where I live. I'm arguing that isn't the case. Finding people who are selling eggs while practicing ethics compatible with veganism is going to be virtually impossible no matter where you are located.

    I'm glad your friend takes good care of the chickens that are in her custody. My statements aren't meant to be an indictment of any individual participating in this system, more pointing out that people participating in this system in any capacity aren't going to be an alternative for people whose objections to animal exploitation lead them to veganism.

    Directing vegans to seek out certain types of farming isn't a solution. It isn't that these types of farming aren't available in all areas, it's that a system of chicken farming that doesn't involve chick culling doesn't really exist. Even your friend, who doesn't eat her own chickens, has several hens and just one rooster. That sex distribution is created by human intervention -- either by the supplier or the farmer.

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