Carnivore Diet: The Antithesis to Veganism

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  • ruffneckred
    ruffneckred Posts: 69 Member
    Great discussion. Do RD have continuing education? Is carnivore approach too new to be included in a continuing education program. I am low carb / high fat, and pretty satisfied. Carnivore is appealing and hits my curiosity button. I have watched JRE podcast with a young lady, her story is very compelling. She the daughter of Jordan Peterson. Googling him is a very interesting rabbit hole. Have a great day
  • janejellyroll
    janejellyroll Posts: 25,763 Member
    Great discussion. Do RD have continuing education? Is carnivore approach too new to be included in a continuing education program. I am low carb / high fat, and pretty satisfied. Carnivore is appealing and hits my curiosity button. I have watched JRE podcast with a young lady, her story is very compelling. She the daughter of Jordan Peterson. Googling him is a very interesting rabbit hole. Have a great day

    RDs do have continuing education, but a lot of it is based on research. There is very little non-anecdotal research about humans attempting to live as carnivores, so there won't be much for RDs to study.
  • nvmomketo
    nvmomketo Posts: 12,019 Member
    kimny72 wrote: »
    nvmomketo wrote: »

    If vegetarianism caused good health for all, simply because a diet is based in plants, I imagine that some of those effects may have become apparent in the last few decades. I don't see it. We have better medicine,fewer smokers, better safety measures but more metabolic and chronic lifestyle diseases.

    I know that plant based diets can be healthful, and I'm a big believer in a whole foods omnivorous diet. I just have not seen evidence that compels me to believe that avoiding or limiting meats and animal products is helpful for achieving good health for most people. I know people like to believe that, but the evidence is not there. Maybe it will be one day, but it isnt there yet. The evidence that carnivore is better is not there yet either.

    Just because the population as a whole is maybe eating a bit less animal products, doesn't even begin to make the standard American diet plant-based or vegetarian. My dad eats 6 oz of steak instead of 8 oz and one sausage with his pasta instead of two doesn't mean he now qualifies as plant based and should see the same health benefits as the vegetarian Adventists in Loma Linda.

    Obviously. Only about 1/10 to 1/8 are vegetarian or vegan. Cutting back on meat does not make one vegetarian.

    Plant based diets as a definition have a lot of variation. I consider a plant based diet to be one where most calories come from plants, which may or may not be vegetarian or vegan. Where most calories are from plant based foods. Like a spaghetti meal with some meat in its sauce and a small side salad, as opposed to a steak dinner with a small side salad. My plate looks more like the spaghetti meal, IMO.
    That better medicine and safety only applies to the lucky few who have access to it. And we're talking about diet, many people get to adulthood with absolutely zero understanding of basic health and nutrition. They are getting chronic lifestyle diseases that require that better medicine because they aren't eating any kind of diet either of us would consider healthy.

    I'm in Canada so our medical access is different. For major medical issues we are all set. For the dentist, we go every few years. Physiotherapy is out. Only some things are covered but major illness is.
    As far as there not being evidence limiting animal products is helpful for achieving good health, I honestly don't know how to argue that, as there is ample evidence over hundreds of years. But if you're going to discount something as basic as the Blue Zones, I doubt that exploring that evidence here would move the conversation forward at all.

    It's not the debate section, we don't need to argue it. ;)

    Anecdotal evidence is all there is for comparing high meat to no/little meat diets. We can look at past cultures and guess what works and whether it was diet.
    Regardless, I think any individual who tries to eat well for their health and actually puts intentional thought behind what they eat, regardless of what particular diet they choose, will be healthier than the average Joe who just eats whatever whenever and doesn't bother to care. I'd bet someone can do it with a well-thought-out carnivorous diet. I just think it is probably not practical for many folks, and would be easier to end up unhealthy if you don't plan well due to access and limited choices.

    I think that is correct for all diets. A poorly planned vegetarian diet of mainly sugars and flours would be unhealthy, just like a carnivorous diet of someone who lives on bacon and pork rinds would be unhealthy.
  • nvmomketo
    nvmomketo Posts: 12,019 Member
    nvmomketo wrote: »
    kimny72 wrote: »
    nvmomketo wrote: »

    If vegetarianism caused good health for all, simply because a diet is based in plants, I imagine that some of those effects may have become apparent in the last few decades. I don't see it. We have better medicine,fewer smokers, better safety measures but more metabolic and chronic lifestyle diseases.

    I know that plant based diets can be healthful, and I'm a big believer in a whole foods omnivorous diet. I just have not seen evidence that compels me to believe that avoiding or limiting meats and animal products is helpful for achieving good health for most people. I know people like to believe that, but the evidence is not there. Maybe it will be one day, but it isnt there yet. The evidence that carnivore is better is not there yet either.

    Just because the population as a whole is maybe eating a bit less animal products, doesn't even begin to make the standard American diet plant-based or vegetarian. My dad eats 6 oz of steak instead of 8 oz and one sausage with his pasta instead of two doesn't mean he now qualifies as plant based and should see the same health benefits as the vegetarian Adventists in Loma Linda.

    Obviously. Only about 1/10 to 1/8 are vegetarian or vegan. Cutting back on meat does not make one vegetarian.

    Plant based diets as a definition have a lot of variation. I consider a plant based diet to be one where most calories come from plants, which may or may not be vegetarian or vegan. Where most calories are from plant based foods. Like a spaghetti meal with some meat in its sauce and a small side salad, as opposed to a steak dinner with a small side salad. My plate looks more like the spaghetti meal, IMO.
    That better medicine and safety only applies to the lucky few who have access to it. And we're talking about diet, many people get to adulthood with absolutely zero understanding of basic health and nutrition. They are getting chronic lifestyle diseases that require that better medicine because they aren't eating any kind of diet either of us would consider healthy.

    I'm in Canada so our medical access is different. For major medical issues we are all set. For the dentist, we go every few years. Physiotherapy is out. Only some things are covered but major illness is.
    As far as there not being evidence limiting animal products is helpful for achieving good health, I honestly don't know how to argue that, as there is ample evidence over hundreds of years. But if you're going to discount something as basic as the Blue Zones, I doubt that exploring that evidence here would move the conversation forward at all.

    It's not the debate section, we don't need to argue it. ;)

    Anecdotal evidence is all there is for comparing high meat to no/little meat diets. We can look at past cultures and guess what works and whether it was diet.
    Regardless, I think any individual who tries to eat well for their health and actually puts intentional thought behind what they eat, regardless of what particular diet they choose, will be healthier than the average Joe who just eats whatever whenever and doesn't bother to care. I'd bet someone can do it with a well-thought-out carnivorous diet. I just think it is probably not practical for many folks, and would be easier to end up unhealthy if you don't plan well due to access and limited choices.

    I think that is correct for all diets. A poorly planned vegetarian diet of mainly sugars and flours would be unhealthy, just like a carnivorous diet of someone who lives on bacon and pork rinds would be unhealthy.

    You're defining "plant-based diet" differently than the people who are using it in this thread. That's fine, but that is also leading you to misunderstanding the arguments that people are actually making.

    It's hard to compare blue zone-style/plant-based diets to the carnivore diet when we have abundant information on the benefits of the former and only anecdotal evidence (as you admit) for the healthfulness and/or benefits of the latter.

    is plant based vegan or not? Are the 7th day adventists vegan or just vegetarian? I do not think any other blue zones are vegan, are they? I honestly do not know. I assumed they are all omnivores who mostly eat plants.

    And the anecdotal evidence is for both types of diets. As far as I know, they have never tested the same populations, with the same lifestyle and health factors but with differing amounts of animal and plant products. If they have, I'd live to read it.

    We have anecdotal evidence of healthy inuits, first nations, mongols, maasai, as well as healthy populations who eat less animal products. I don't believe
    there are any historical cultural anecdotes of vegans except those individuals of the recent past who are able to buy supplements.
  • T1DCarnivoreRunner
    T1DCarnivoreRunner Posts: 11,502 Member
    nvmomketo wrote: »
    Sounds like an awesome way to get scurvy. The longest living populations eat mainly plant based. The truth is that calorie restricting diets improve longevity.

    Scurvy is not an issue for those eating meat, possibly because carbs raise C needs. Meat, and no refined carbs, U.S. An effective treatment for scurvy- especially if you include organ meat in your diet.

    The fact that some of the longest lived cultures eat a mainly plant based diet is a correlation and not a causation. Eating food from plants may play a role, or it may not.

    That's the most hilarious pseudoscience post I've seen yet!.

    Seriously..if we evolved to be carnivores our heads would look like this...

    by85aw167uvg.jpeg

    If you look into it, you will find that insulin and vitamin C compete for some of the same pathways for uptake. A carnivorous diet is pretty close to zero carb and requires much less insulin, therefore less competition for vitamin C uptake. "Carbs raise C needs" is a simpler way to say the same thing.
  • GottaBurnEmAll
    GottaBurnEmAll Posts: 7,722 Member
    nvmomketo wrote: »
    Plant-based is not ambiguous, unless you misinterpret it. It is *not* food made from plants. It is whole plant foods.

    It's also no more moralistic than carnivore is. It's simply descriptive of foods that comprise a way of eating.

    Wouldn't that be whole food plant based? WFPB differs from plant based? Difference of a few words.

    It does sound moralistic to me. Your opinion differs from mine. I thought clean eating was a fine term until MFP too. Apparently many find it ambiguous and moralistic. Ymmv.

    Hmmm... I think the disconnect here is that in general usage, "plant based" is usually whole plant foods like grains, beans, vegetables, legumes, fruit. It may or may not include meat, eggs, and/or dairy. It encompasses a couple of different eating styles. It seems to me that you're defining "plant based" as "anything that isn't meat".

    I'm failing to understand the moralistic angle here, could you expound on that? To me, it's just descriptive. I'm trying to see where you're coming from.