What's the keto diet good for?
Replies
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I don't really get why Keto needs "bonus features" at all. If a person is happy eating a Keto style diet and wants to lose weight why isn't that enough?
When you tack on an additional benefits package it seems like a recruitment tactic and I am sad to say it probably works.
It isn't a bonus package. LOL it's the main reason to do the diet, IMO.
As a weight loss tool it is on par with other diets. Use it if you wish. If you like the foods, great. But the good parts of keto tend to be that people feel better eating that way - they become healthier. It does not happen for everyone of course, but it can have some great health benefits for some people.
The title of the thread is what is keto good for. This would be the place to list the possible benefits - whether proven and published or anecdotal. Possible health benefits is what keto is good for, IMO.
Possible riches are what await me if I play the Publisher's Clearing House.
I am not going to argue with you about your list. I did happen to notice this thread was asking what is Keto good for not what is Keto possibly good for, for some people though.
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The benefits of the Mediterranean diet:
* May slow down cognitive decline and can be protective against Alzheimer's
* Can improve the mental health of people with depression
* Reduces inflammation
* Can prevent heart disease and promote metabolic syndrome remission
* Associated with improved osteoarthritis symptoms
* Has a dose-dependent protective association with the presence, number, and thickness of plaques independent of other risk factors.
I can go on and write pages of this for the Mediterranean diet, and then start an even longer list for a vegetarian or vegan diet. I may even dabble in the effect of flexible dieting on mental health and eating disorder prevalence.15 -
amusedmonkey wrote: »The benefits of the Mediterranean diet:
* May slow down cognitive decline and can be protective against Alzheimer's
* Can improve the mental health of people with depression
* Reduces inflammation
* Can prevent heart disease and promote metabolic syndrome remission
* Associated with improved osteoarthritis symptoms
* Has a dose-dependent protective association with the presence, number, and thickness of plaques independent of other risk factors.
I can go on and write pages of this for the Mediterranean diet, and then start an even longer list for a vegetarian or vegan diet. I may even dabble in the effect of flexible dieting on mental health and eating disorder prevalence.
I
U! 6 -
amusedmonkey wrote: »The benefits of the Mediterranean diet:
* May slow down cognitive decline and can be protective against Alzheimer's
* Can improve the mental health of people with depression
* Reduces inflammation
* Can prevent heart disease and promote metabolic syndrome remission
* Associated with improved osteoarthritis symptoms
* Has a dose-dependent protective association with the presence, number, and thickness of plaques independent of other risk factors.
I can go on and write pages of this for the Mediterranean diet, and then start an even longer list for a vegetarian or vegan diet. I may even dabble in the effect of flexible dieting on mental health and eating disorder prevalence.
I U!
Me fricken’ too!6 -
I took some ideas from the Mediterranean diet so it definitely benefited me. The benefit of flexible eating is that you can study other diets and pick and choose the parts you think are good ideas.7
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I am all for following a diet that doesn't have a name. That significantly lessens any rules and restrictions and means that you can tailor an eating plan which is most suitable for you as an individual. This approach has worked well for me.5 -
amusedmonkey wrote: »The benefits of the Mediterranean diet:
* May slow down cognitive decline and can be protective against Alzheimer's
* Can improve the mental health of people with depression
* Reduces inflammation
* Can prevent heart disease and promote metabolic syndrome remission
* Associated with improved osteoarthritis symptoms
* Has a dose-dependent protective association with the presence, number, and thickness of plaques independent of other risk factors.
I can go on and write pages of this for the Mediterranean diet, and then start an even longer list for a vegetarian or vegan diet. I may even dabble in the effect of flexible dieting on mental health and eating disorder prevalence.
Yep, you could. I did say that many of the benefits that I listed could be found in other diets, with weight loss or drugs. There are only a few of the items that seem to be due to ketones only, but there would be health benefits seen in some other diets that are not seen in keto, I'm sure.10 -
Keto has a few benefits that people may experience:
- Reduced hunger and cravings so weight loss feels easier. Those with IR may lose marginally faster - maybe 6 lbs more in a year than they would on a higher carb diet; for healthy people, there is no metabolic advantage and the Lise just as fast on higher carb.
- More stable blood glucose and possibly a stop, partial or full reversal of conditions associated with insulin resistance like T2D, prediabetes, PCOS, NAFLD.
- Used to treat Alzheimer's, stroke and brain injury. Some use it to prevent migraines.
- People often notice an improvement in cognition
- Can be used to help some with developmental problems like autism.
- some use it to treat IBS
- For most, it improves cholesterol and reduces inflammation reducing risk of CVD.
- treats epilepsy
- Better skin and hair
- It eliminated my reactive hypoglycemia and postural hypotension
- Lower inflammation can be used to help treat some autoimmune problems
Like any diet or drug, these benefit so will not be true for everyone. Many of the benefits can be achieved using other diets, drugs or weight loss.
I started keto to deal with autoimmune issues and to lower my BG as it crept up to prediabetic levels. I knew I needed a diet to reduce inflammation. I'd been trying to lose a bit of weight to get into the middle of a normal BMI range by eating more fruits, veggies and lean meats while cutting calories, as prescribed by my doctor to address my IR. Instead I ended up gaining almost 20 pounds and becoming overweight. I decided LCHF would be smart as it lowers inflammation. Once I cut out refined carbs I felt so much better that I kept going to keto. Better energy, thinking, easier weight loss, better BP and skin were all happy side effects. I've stayed mostly keto for over three years now.WholeFoods4Lyfe wrote: »Since you are already googling, you could probably read a few other links, but Keto is not new. The human body is designed to produce Ketones for fuel, it's just that medically it has been found to be an effective diet for certain brain disorders, like epilepsy. It's also been found to be a very satiating diet for many making it easier to create a calorie deficit.
If you want a personal experience, I'll give you mine.
I started out Morbidly Obese and diagnosed with Metabolic Syndrome. I also have/had severe GERD and Erosive Esophogitis, and a Dairy and Gluten Intolerance. I started out following a Low Carb Diet which was easy when I eliminated dairy and gluten. I noticed that I physically felt better. Keto was just a natural progression for me, because in addition to feeling better on a low carb diet, I realized that fat was satiating for me and helped me to create a calorie deficit, plus, my GERD symptoms were better. Once going full Keto, my GERD symptoms completely resolved. My blood glucose numbers normalized, my blood pressure normalized, and my Cholesterol numbers got better (they were never that bad though). Keto for me is a lifestyle. I never realized how sick I felt all the time, until I didn't. This isn't just about weight loss for me, though the 60+ pounds I've lost is awesome, it's about improving my overall health, so I tend to eat a lot more whole foods than I ever did when I was eating a SAD. People can woo me all you want, but this is a lifestyle for me and something that I plan to follow for the rest of my life. Maybe not always Keto, but definitely a low carb whole foods diet.
Thanks for the explanation! So I've also heard of the Atkins diet, is it pretty much the same thing then? And I'm curious too how your cholesterol went down, wouldn't it go up if you're eating mostly meats for your protein? Or do you eat mostly vegetarian? I'm also curious do those carbs you eliminate include veggies?
There are some vegetarian keto'ers but not a lot. Refined carbs are usually cut back on first. Most also limit starchy root veggies and fruit. Some keto'ers eat a fair bit of veggies with every meal and some eat almost none.
As a general rule, and excluding those few with familial hypercholesterolemia, increasing fats and lowering carbs (especially refined and highly processed) will usually increase HDL, lower triglycerides (which creates a good HDL triglycerides ratio), and improve the particle size of LDL to the larger and less dense variety which is not associated with CVD. Total cholesterol often goes up because HDL is higher, but it is an outdated test that is of little use. LDL seems to rise in close to half of all keto'ers and fall or stay for the rest. As I mentioned, the particle size is improved so it's not something to worry about.
Dave Feldman has been doing interesting experiments with cholesterol. He's discovered that increasing fat (and calories) results in a predictable drop in LDL about 3 days later. If you increase carbs or eat at a deficit, cholesterol rises instead. It's quite interesting.
http://cholesterolcode.com
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZu52duIqno&vl=en
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0LuKwsz9Woc
Let's be honest, most of those benefits are driven by weight loss and the same results of any diet that induces weight loss. Also, it should be noted that keto is one therapy to reduce progession of Alzheimer's but its not a stand alone treatment... Meaning its a possible component of several treats (i.e., meds, cogntivie therapy, etc..)
Its good if you are fine with practically eliminating carbs and find fat filling. I cycle keto and high carb to improve fat mobilization and do high carb to reduce the impacts of glycogen depletion, and reduce/eliminate the impacts on leptin/ghrelin as it relates to dieting.
I did say many of those benefits can be achieved by other diets, drugs and weight loss. Not denying that. But, most of the benefits I listed can be achieved with ketosis without weight loss such as reduced hunger, stable and lower BG, treatment for Alzheimer's and brain injury and migraines, improved cognition, autism and epilepsy treatment, IBS treatment, better skin and hair, improved reactive hypoglycemia and postural hypotension, improved cholesterol and lower inflammation... Huh, that was everything I listed except CVD improvements - I'm not sure just improving cholesterol and lowering inflammation is enough to reduce CVD risk.
The issue is, you believe if it helped even one person its a benefit (i.e., autism), then you believe its a benefit of the diet. That simple isnt true. A diet related benefit would apply to a greater majority of those who follow it (i.e., stable BG in those with IR).
With Alzheimer's there may be a slowing in the progression in some but keto alone cant be used; meaning drug intervention and other therapies have to be used first. Hunger suppression happens with some, just like every diet that gets you to focus on high quality foods. Better skin and hair is the same non sense promoted on every diet. Again, that is largely driven by going off crap diets and moving on a diet of quality foods.
The point is, if the benefit is for every diet, than its not really a benefit because its not the diet causing the benefit.11 -
amusedmonkey wrote: »The benefits of the Mediterranean diet:
* May slow down cognitive decline and can be protective against Alzheimer's
* Can improve the mental health of people with depression
* Reduces inflammation
* Can prevent heart disease and promote metabolic syndrome remission
* Associated with improved osteoarthritis symptoms
* Has a dose-dependent protective association with the presence, number, and thickness of plaques independent of other risk factors.
I can go on and write pages of this for the Mediterranean diet, and then start an even longer list for a vegetarian or vegan diet. I may even dabble in the effect of flexible dieting on mental health and eating disorder prevalence.
Yep, you could. I did say that many of the benefits that I listed could be found in other diets, with weight loss or drugs. There are only a few of the items that seem to be due to ketones only, but there would be health benefits seen in some other diets that are not seen in keto, I'm sure.
Sure, but what's the point? Since most diets provide benefits (most of which are achieved through weight loss, anyway) why make these lists? It oversells the diet. Keto is currently a craze, so contributing to it with such assertions isn't doing people any favors. People are feeling "forced" to join the craze because "it's the best diet ever that will give you the best results and health benefits and if you're not doing it, you don't care about your health" and "carbs are scary and will make you gain weight or kill you". They don't need more encouragement than the current media barrage, they need more toned down info to encourage realistic expectations and focus on preference and sustainability above all.10 -
amusedmonkey wrote: »The benefits of the Mediterranean diet:
* May slow down cognitive decline and can be protective against Alzheimer's
* Can improve the mental health of people with depression
* Reduces inflammation
* Can prevent heart disease and promote metabolic syndrome remission
* Associated with improved osteoarthritis symptoms
* Has a dose-dependent protective association with the presence, number, and thickness of plaques independent of other risk factors.
I can go on and write pages of this for the Mediterranean diet, and then start an even longer list for a vegetarian or vegan diet. I may even dabble in the effect of flexible dieting on mental health and eating disorder prevalence.
Yep, you could. I did say that many of the benefits that I listed could be found in other diets, with weight loss or drugs. There are only a few of the items that seem to be due to ketones only, but there would be health benefits seen in some other diets that are not seen in keto, I'm sure.
My friendly suggestion to you. Look at posts made by those following keto and compare the posts of those that continue to get woo's and those that don't. There is a reason for it. Your wording gives the impression that keto is some magic diet with so many medical benefits even though you believe your wording says differently. Most of these things happen because of weight loss, increased physical activity and potentially a decrease in processed foods, not because of keto itself. You know this, you think this is what you are saying, but it is not how people are interpreting what you are saying.
Until you can see this for yourself you are more likely to be a hinderance rather than a help to those wanting to start out.
On the flip side, when your posts are in relation to difficulties some are having with keto (salt deficiency for example) they are totally on point because they are based on fact rather than woo and personal opinion.11 -
amusedmonkey wrote: »The benefits of the Mediterranean diet:
* May slow down cognitive decline and can be protective against Alzheimer's
* Can improve the mental health of people with depression
* Reduces inflammation
* Can prevent heart disease and promote metabolic syndrome remission
* Associated with improved osteoarthritis symptoms
* Has a dose-dependent protective association with the presence, number, and thickness of plaques independent of other risk factors.
I can go on and write pages of this for the Mediterranean diet, and then start an even longer list for a vegetarian or vegan diet. I may even dabble in the effect of flexible dieting on mental health and eating disorder prevalence.
Yep, you could. I did say that many of the benefits that I listed could be found in other diets, with weight loss or drugs. There are only a few of the items that seem to be due to ketones only, but there would be health benefits seen in some other diets that are not seen in keto, I'm sure.
Allow me to explain why people have an issue with what you're saying using an example:
Statement:
"Some find easier to control weight when counting calories"
This is a fact. Some do find it easier to control weight when counting calories. However, other do not. This accounts for this variation in opinion.
Statement:
"I find it is easier to control weight when counting calories."
This statement is an opinion. It is clearly your own opinion and should be viewed as such.
Statement:
"It is easier to control weight when counting calories."
This statement is an opinion but is presented as a fact. It implies that everyone finds it easier, when this is not the case.
Presenting opinions as facts is something that really grinds people's gears. Mostly because there will be people who do not recognise that that you have said is opinion, and will assume it is fact.
People woo those who say "keto is the best diet" because there is evidence that disproves this statement. This statement is an opinion. That is not a fact, but it is masquerading as one. However "keto is the best diet for me" doesn't get woos, because it's clearly an opinion.15 -
Actually, most woo'ing occurs based on internet personalities (one group vs another). I have 2 or 3 people who woo my post regardless of what i say... Even when i promote the keto/lchf diet).
Ultimately, most claims for most diets are baseless or have little relation to the diet itself. Its generally the improvements to food quality, increase in activity and controlling calories.
Eta: the same goes for likes.. people get likes based on cliques. I often get less likes with details responses as compared to the person quoting me saying they agree.. probably because i am a mod.5 -
Lillymoo01 wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »The benefits of the Mediterranean diet:
* May slow down cognitive decline and can be protective against Alzheimer's
* Can improve the mental health of people with depression
* Reduces inflammation
* Can prevent heart disease and promote metabolic syndrome remission
* Associated with improved osteoarthritis symptoms
* Has a dose-dependent protective association with the presence, number, and thickness of plaques independent of other risk factors.
I can go on and write pages of this for the Mediterranean diet, and then start an even longer list for a vegetarian or vegan diet. I may even dabble in the effect of flexible dieting on mental health and eating disorder prevalence.
Yep, you could. I did say that many of the benefits that I listed could be found in other diets, with weight loss or drugs. There are only a few of the items that seem to be due to ketones only, but there would be health benefits seen in some other diets that are not seen in keto, I'm sure.
My friendly suggestion to you. Look at posts made by those following keto and compare the posts of those that continue to get woo's and those that don't. There is a reason for it. Your wording gives the impression that keto is some magic diet with so many medical benefits even though you believe your wording says differently. Most of these things happen because of weight loss, increased physical activity and potentially a decrease in processed foods, not because of keto itself. You know this, you think this is what you are saying, but it is not how people are interpreting what you are saying.
Until you can see this for yourself you are more likely to be a hinderance rather than a help to those wanting to start out.
On the flip side, when your posts are in relation to difficulties some are having with keto (salt deficiency for example) they are totally on point because they are based on fact rather than woo and personal opinion.
As @psulemon pointed out, Likes and Woos are pretty much meaningless in determining the value of content. I would also submit that people's interpretations of what others are saying is influenced by their personal feelings about the person themselves or the topic in question. The original response did include the words "may" and stated that not everyone would experience the listed benefits, and that those benefits are not exclusive to the diet and could be achieved with other diets - those are pretty fair statements in the discussion of any diet.
I've seen numerous statements over the years from people talking about the benefits of weight lifting, and how "the fat is melting off" - well, picking up a weight isn't causing the fat to melt off, it's the calorie deficit....but I have never seen anyone come in and correct someone when they list that as a potential benefit of the exercise. So it seems to me that many of the "misinterpretations" are less about what the person is saying and more about people's personal opinions about the topic and what content they think should be allowed on the forums.4 -
Lillymoo01 wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »The benefits of the Mediterranean diet:
* May slow down cognitive decline and can be protective against Alzheimer's
* Can improve the mental health of people with depression
* Reduces inflammation
* Can prevent heart disease and promote metabolic syndrome remission
* Associated with improved osteoarthritis symptoms
* Has a dose-dependent protective association with the presence, number, and thickness of plaques independent of other risk factors.
I can go on and write pages of this for the Mediterranean diet, and then start an even longer list for a vegetarian or vegan diet. I may even dabble in the effect of flexible dieting on mental health and eating disorder prevalence.
Yep, you could. I did say that many of the benefits that I listed could be found in other diets, with weight loss or drugs. There are only a few of the items that seem to be due to ketones only, but there would be health benefits seen in some other diets that are not seen in keto, I'm sure.
My friendly suggestion to you. Look at posts made by those following keto and compare the posts of those that continue to get woo's and those that don't. There is a reason for it. Your wording gives the impression that keto is some magic diet with so many medical benefits even though you believe your wording says differently. Most of these things happen because of weight loss, increased physical activity and potentially a decrease in processed foods, not because of keto itself. You know this, you think this is what you are saying, but it is not how people are interpreting what you are saying.
Until you can see this for yourself you are more likely to be a hinderance rather than a help to those wanting to start out.
On the flip side, when your posts are in relation to difficulties some are having with keto (salt deficiency for example) they are totally on point because they are based on fact rather than woo and personal opinion.
As @psulemon pointed out, Likes and Woos are pretty much meaningless in determining the value of content. I would also submit that people's interpretations of what others are saying is influenced by their personal feelings about the person themselves or the topic in question. The original response did include the words "may" and stated that not everyone would experience the listed benefits, and that those benefits are not exclusive to the diet and could be achieved with other diets - those are pretty fair statements in the discussion of any diet.
I've seen numerous statements over the years from people talking about the benefits of weight lifting, and how "the fat is melting off" - well, picking up a weight isn't causing the fat to melt off, it's the calorie deficit....but I have never seen anyone come in and correct someone when they list that as a potential benefit of the exercise. So it seems to me that many of the "misinterpretations" are less about what the person is saying and more about people's personal opinions about the topic and what content they think should be allowed on the forums.
I think there is much truth in what you and psulemon say about woos and likes. But I don't see it in that black and white a way. Some do woo or like just based on likes and dislikes. I see it in various posts that can just be objective factual info and it gets woo'd.
I do think that there is some truth in what @Deviette said. And I thought she laid out the argument well. If your posts are consistently getting lots of woos and your posts challenged, you may want to rethink your approach. In particular, the stating opinion and conjecture as if it might be fact is one that seems to draw a lot of woos.I've seen numerous statements over the years from people talking about the benefits of weight lifting, and how "the fat is melting off" - well, picking up a weight isn't causing the fat to melt off, it's the calorie deficit....but I have never seen anyone come in and correct someone when they list that as a potential benefit of the exercise.
You may not have seen this thought challenged but I have numerous times. I've seen people told their fat is melting off because of their calorie deficit and not their weight training. That they can't out train a bad diet. I've seen people told that weight training is limited in the amount of calories it burns. I've seen people say they want to build muscle to burn fat told that muscle only burns about 6 to 8 calories per day per lb. And these comments generally come from those that are proponents of weight training. There is probably seems less of it because it seems about every 4th post is about keto these days.
So, while there are certainly some of the personality issues that you and lemon call out, there is also some just plain reaction to misinformation, false claims and the shading and misrepresenting of facts. I couldn't say which is the higher percentage but I don't think you can dismiss either.6 -
Keto has a few benefits that people may experience:
- Reduced hunger and cravings so weight loss feels easier. Those with IR may lose marginally faster - maybe 6 lbs more in a year than they would on a higher carb diet; for healthy people, there is no metabolic advantage and the Lise just as fast on higher carb.
- More stable blood glucose and possibly a stop, partial or full reversal of conditions associated with insulin resistance like T2D, prediabetes, PCOS, NAFLD.
- Used to treat Alzheimer's, stroke and brain injury. Some use it to prevent migraines.
- People often notice an improvement in cognition
- Can be used to help some with developmental problems like autism.
- some use it to treat IBS
- For most, it improves cholesterol and reduces inflammation reducing risk of CVD.
- treats epilepsy
- Better skin and hair
- It eliminated my reactive hypoglycemia and postural hypotension
- Lower inflammation can be used to help treat some autoimmune problems
Like any diet or drug, these benefit so will not be true for everyone. Many of the benefits can be achieved using other diets, drugs or weight loss.
I started keto to deal with autoimmune issues and to lower my BG as it crept up to prediabetic levels. I knew I needed a diet to reduce inflammation. I'd been trying to lose a bit of weight to get into the middle of a normal BMI range by eating more fruits, veggies and lean meats while cutting calories, as prescribed by my doctor to address my IR. Instead I ended up gaining almost 20 pounds and becoming overweight. I decided LCHF would be smart as it lowers inflammation. Once I cut out refined carbs I felt so much better that I kept going to keto. Better energy, thinking, easier weight loss, better BP and skin were all happy side effects. I've stayed mostly keto for over three years now.WholeFoods4Lyfe wrote: »Since you are already googling, you could probably read a few other links, but Keto is not new. The human body is designed to produce Ketones for fuel, it's just that medically it has been found to be an effective diet for certain brain disorders, like epilepsy. It's also been found to be a very satiating diet for many making it easier to create a calorie deficit.
If you want a personal experience, I'll give you mine.
I started out Morbidly Obese and diagnosed with Metabolic Syndrome. I also have/had severe GERD and Erosive Esophogitis, and a Dairy and Gluten Intolerance. I started out following a Low Carb Diet which was easy when I eliminated dairy and gluten. I noticed that I physically felt better. Keto was just a natural progression for me, because in addition to feeling better on a low carb diet, I realized that fat was satiating for me and helped me to create a calorie deficit, plus, my GERD symptoms were better. Once going full Keto, my GERD symptoms completely resolved. My blood glucose numbers normalized, my blood pressure normalized, and my Cholesterol numbers got better (they were never that bad though). Keto for me is a lifestyle. I never realized how sick I felt all the time, until I didn't. This isn't just about weight loss for me, though the 60+ pounds I've lost is awesome, it's about improving my overall health, so I tend to eat a lot more whole foods than I ever did when I was eating a SAD. People can woo me all you want, but this is a lifestyle for me and something that I plan to follow for the rest of my life. Maybe not always Keto, but definitely a low carb whole foods diet.
Thanks for the explanation! So I've also heard of the Atkins diet, is it pretty much the same thing then? And I'm curious too how your cholesterol went down, wouldn't it go up if you're eating mostly meats for your protein? Or do you eat mostly vegetarian? I'm also curious do those carbs you eliminate include veggies?
There are some vegetarian keto'ers but not a lot. Refined carbs are usually cut back on first. Most also limit starchy root veggies and fruit. Some keto'ers eat a fair bit of veggies with every meal and some eat almost none.
As a general rule, and excluding those few with familial hypercholesterolemia, increasing fats and lowering carbs (especially refined and highly processed) will usually increase HDL, lower triglycerides (which creates a good HDL triglycerides ratio), and improve the particle size of LDL to the larger and less dense variety which is not associated with CVD. Total cholesterol often goes up because HDL is higher, but it is an outdated test that is of little use. LDL seems to rise in close to half of all keto'ers and fall or stay for the rest. As I mentioned, the particle size is improved so it's not something to worry about.
Dave Feldman has been doing interesting experiments with cholesterol. He's discovered that increasing fat (and calories) results in a predictable drop in LDL about 3 days later. If you increase carbs or eat at a deficit, cholesterol rises instead. It's quite interesting.
http://cholesterolcode.comhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZu52duIqno&vl=enhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0LuKwsz9Woc
Let's be honest, most of those benefits are driven by weight loss and the same results of any diet that induces weight loss. Also, it should be noted that keto is one therapy to reduce progession of Alzheimer's but its not a stand alone treatment... Meaning its a possible component of several treats (i.e., meds, cogntivie therapy, etc..)
Its good if you are fine with practically eliminating carbs and find fat filling. I cycle keto and high carb to improve fat mobilization and do high carb to reduce the impacts of glycogen depletion, and reduce/eliminate the impacts on leptin/ghrelin as it relates to dieting.
I did say many of those benefits can be achieved by other diets, drugs and weight loss. Not denying that. But, most of the benefits I listed can be achieved with ketosis without weight loss such as reduced hunger, stable and lower BG, treatment for Alzheimer's and brain injury and migraines, improved cognition, autism and epilepsy treatment, IBS treatment, better skin and hair, improved reactive hypoglycemia and postural hypotension, improved cholesterol and lower inflammation... Huh, that was everything I listed except CVD improvements - I'm not sure just improving cholesterol and lowering inflammation is enough to reduce CVD risk.
The issue is, you believe if it helped even one person its a benefit (i.e., autism), then you believe its a benefit of the diet. That simple isnt true. A diet related benefit would apply to a greater majority of those who follow it (i.e., stable BG in those with IR).
With Alzheimer's there may be a slowing in the progression in some but keto alone cant be used; meaning drug intervention and other therapies have to be used first. Hunger suppression happens with some, just like every diet that gets you to focus on high quality foods. Better skin and hair is the same non sense promoted on every diet. Again, that is largely driven by going off crap diets and moving on a diet of quality foods.
The point is, if the benefit is for every diet, than its not really a benefit because its not the diet causing the benefit.
I understand your point, but I think you are not correct in how you are applying it.
The autism study I last linked, which someone brought up, had 60% of the patients show improvement on the diet. That is not just one. I've never said if it helps one it helps all. That's some pretty odd thinking. In this case, 60% was a majority and would not be a bad result for a drug.
I know keto is not used alone for Alzheimer's patients. Again, never said it was. I said it was used to treat some Alzheimer's. It is. I did not call it the sole treatment.
Hair and skin improvements could happen on all diets but I doubt it. SAD is doubtful. But even if it true, so what? If vegan, keto, Mediterranean, dash, whatever ,improves skin and hair for some, it doesn't make the possible benefits less true for each individual diet. Some diets will help some people more than others. On a everything in moderation diet, my skin is horrible. If I cut carbs and add fats, it is great. My son gets acne from a high carbs and milk. Moderate carbs and low milk works best for him. For him, a high carb diet with milk has no skin benefit although it could for another. Reducing carbs and dairy is a clear dietary benefit for him, it just won't apply to everyone. For me, moderate carbs cause pimples. And we don't have much crap in the house.
11 -
Actually, most woo'ing occurs based on internet personalities (one group vs another). I have 2 or 3 people who woo my post regardless of what i say... Even when i promote the keto/lchf diet).
Ultimately, most claims for most diets are baseless or have little relation to the diet itself. Its generally the improvements to food quality, increase in activity and controlling calories.
Eta: the same goes for likes.. people get likes based on cliques. I often get less likes with details responses as compared to the person quoting me saying they agree.. probably because i am a mod.
I have a woo stalker too. I've been getting a woo on most of my posts (at least the ones the stalker catches) even if they're 100% benign and uncontroversial.6 -
amusedmonkey wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »The benefits of the Mediterranean diet:
* May slow down cognitive decline and can be protective against Alzheimer's
* Can improve the mental health of people with depression
* Reduces inflammation
* Can prevent heart disease and promote metabolic syndrome remission
* Associated with improved osteoarthritis symptoms
* Has a dose-dependent protective association with the presence, number, and thickness of plaques independent of other risk factors.
I can go on and write pages of this for the Mediterranean diet, and then start an even longer list for a vegetarian or vegan diet. I may even dabble in the effect of flexible dieting on mental health and eating disorder prevalence.
Yep, you could. I did say that many of the benefits that I listed could be found in other diets, with weight loss or drugs. There are only a few of the items that seem to be due to ketones only, but there would be health benefits seen in some other diets that are not seen in keto, I'm sure.
Sure, but what's the point? Since most diets provide benefits (most of which are achieved through weight loss, anyway) why make these lists? It oversells the diet. Keto is currently a craze, so contributing to it with such assertions isn't doing people any favors. People are feeling "forced" to join the craze because "it's the best diet ever that will give you the best results and health benefits and if you're not doing it, you don't care about your health" and "carbs are scary and will make you gain weight or kill you". They don't need more encouragement than the current media barrage, they need more toned down info to encourage realistic expectations and focus on preference and sustainability above all.
Because they asked. It was the entire point of this thread.
I did not say best diet ever, or that all others are inferior. Nor did I mention the horror if carbs. I gave them the information requested, and will assume they are grown ups and will look into it if interested. The OP stated they were not going to try it. No one tried to push him to try it. I don't think people need a censor checking on what content they are allowed to see.
Evidence either way, good and bad, is what I think people should be given. Keto is no worse or better for weight loss. I think sustainability is about similar too. It has health benefits for some (although those with familial hypercholesterolemia could be hurt by it) I can't see why people should not know about keto when they ask. Knowledge is power.
3 -
amusedmonkey wrote: »Actually, most woo'ing occurs based on internet personalities (one group vs another). I have 2 or 3 people who woo my post regardless of what i say... Even when i promote the keto/lchf diet).
Ultimately, most claims for most diets are baseless or have little relation to the diet itself. Its generally the improvements to food quality, increase in activity and controlling calories.
Eta: the same goes for likes.. people get likes based on cliques. I often get less likes with details responses as compared to the person quoting me saying they agree.. probably because i am a mod.
I have a woo stalker too. I've been getting a woo on most of my posts (at least the ones the stalker catches) even if they're 100% benign and uncontroversial.
Lol! Me too.0 -
Keto has a few benefits that people may experience:
- Reduced hunger and cravings so weight loss feels easier. Those with IR may lose marginally faster - maybe 6 lbs more in a year than they would on a higher carb diet; for healthy people, there is no metabolic advantage and the Lise just as fast on higher carb.
- More stable blood glucose and possibly a stop, partial or full reversal of conditions associated with insulin resistance like T2D, prediabetes, PCOS, NAFLD.
- Used to treat Alzheimer's, stroke and brain injury. Some use it to prevent migraines.
- People often notice an improvement in cognition
- Can be used to help some with developmental problems like autism.
- some use it to treat IBS
- For most, it improves cholesterol and reduces inflammation reducing risk of CVD.
- treats epilepsy
- Better skin and hair
- It eliminated my reactive hypoglycemia and postural hypotension
- Lower inflammation can be used to help treat some autoimmune problems
Like any diet or drug, these benefit so will not be true for everyone. Many of the benefits can be achieved using other diets, drugs or weight loss.
I started keto to deal with autoimmune issues and to lower my BG as it crept up to prediabetic levels. I knew I needed a diet to reduce inflammation. I'd been trying to lose a bit of weight to get into the middle of a normal BMI range by eating more fruits, veggies and lean meats while cutting calories, as prescribed by my doctor to address my IR. Instead I ended up gaining almost 20 pounds and becoming overweight. I decided LCHF would be smart as it lowers inflammation. Once I cut out refined carbs I felt so much better that I kept going to keto. Better energy, thinking, easier weight loss, better BP and skin were all happy side effects. I've stayed mostly keto for over three years now.WholeFoods4Lyfe wrote: »Since you are already googling, you could probably read a few other links, but Keto is not new. The human body is designed to produce Ketones for fuel, it's just that medically it has been found to be an effective diet for certain brain disorders, like epilepsy. It's also been found to be a very satiating diet for many making it easier to create a calorie deficit.
If you want a personal experience, I'll give you mine.
I started out Morbidly Obese and diagnosed with Metabolic Syndrome. I also have/had severe GERD and Erosive Esophogitis, and a Dairy and Gluten Intolerance. I started out following a Low Carb Diet which was easy when I eliminated dairy and gluten. I noticed that I physically felt better. Keto was just a natural progression for me, because in addition to feeling better on a low carb diet, I realized that fat was satiating for me and helped me to create a calorie deficit, plus, my GERD symptoms were better. Once going full Keto, my GERD symptoms completely resolved. My blood glucose numbers normalized, my blood pressure normalized, and my Cholesterol numbers got better (they were never that bad though). Keto for me is a lifestyle. I never realized how sick I felt all the time, until I didn't. This isn't just about weight loss for me, though the 60+ pounds I've lost is awesome, it's about improving my overall health, so I tend to eat a lot more whole foods than I ever did when I was eating a SAD. People can woo me all you want, but this is a lifestyle for me and something that I plan to follow for the rest of my life. Maybe not always Keto, but definitely a low carb whole foods diet.
Thanks for the explanation! So I've also heard of the Atkins diet, is it pretty much the same thing then? And I'm curious too how your cholesterol went down, wouldn't it go up if you're eating mostly meats for your protein? Or do you eat mostly vegetarian? I'm also curious do those carbs you eliminate include veggies?
There are some vegetarian keto'ers but not a lot. Refined carbs are usually cut back on first. Most also limit starchy root veggies and fruit. Some keto'ers eat a fair bit of veggies with every meal and some eat almost none.
As a general rule, and excluding those few with familial hypercholesterolemia, increasing fats and lowering carbs (especially refined and highly processed) will usually increase HDL, lower triglycerides (which creates a good HDL triglycerides ratio), and improve the particle size of LDL to the larger and less dense variety which is not associated with CVD. Total cholesterol often goes up because HDL is higher, but it is an outdated test that is of little use. LDL seems to rise in close to half of all keto'ers and fall or stay for the rest. As I mentioned, the particle size is improved so it's not something to worry about.
Dave Feldman has been doing interesting experiments with cholesterol. He's discovered that increasing fat (and calories) results in a predictable drop in LDL about 3 days later. If you increase carbs or eat at a deficit, cholesterol rises instead. It's quite interesting.
http://cholesterolcode.comhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZu52duIqno&vl=enhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0LuKwsz9Woc
Let's be honest, most of those benefits are driven by weight loss and the same results of any diet that induces weight loss. Also, it should be noted that keto is one therapy to reduce progession of Alzheimer's but its not a stand alone treatment... Meaning its a possible component of several treats (i.e., meds, cogntivie therapy, etc..)
Its good if you are fine with practically eliminating carbs and find fat filling. I cycle keto and high carb to improve fat mobilization and do high carb to reduce the impacts of glycogen depletion, and reduce/eliminate the impacts on leptin/ghrelin as it relates to dieting.
I did say many of those benefits can be achieved by other diets, drugs and weight loss. Not denying that. But, most of the benefits I listed can be achieved with ketosis without weight loss such as reduced hunger, stable and lower BG, treatment for Alzheimer's and brain injury and migraines, improved cognition, autism and epilepsy treatment, IBS treatment, better skin and hair, improved reactive hypoglycemia and postural hypotension, improved cholesterol and lower inflammation... Huh, that was everything I listed except CVD improvements - I'm not sure just improving cholesterol and lowering inflammation is enough to reduce CVD risk.
The issue is, you believe if it helped even one person its a benefit (i.e., autism), then you believe its a benefit of the diet. That simple isnt true. A diet related benefit would apply to a greater majority of those who follow it (i.e., stable BG in those with IR).
With Alzheimer's there may be a slowing in the progression in some but keto alone cant be used; meaning drug intervention and other therapies have to be used first. Hunger suppression happens with some, just like every diet that gets you to focus on high quality foods. Better skin and hair is the same non sense promoted on every diet. Again, that is largely driven by going off crap diets and moving on a diet of quality foods.
The point is, if the benefit is for every diet, than its not really a benefit because its not the diet causing the benefit.
I understand your point, but I think you are not correct in how you are applying it.
The autism study I last linked, which someone brought up, had 60% of the patients show improvement on the diet. That is not just one. I've never said if it helps one it helps all. That's some pretty odd thinking. In this case, 60% was a majority and would not be a bad result for a drug.
I know keto is not used alone for Alzheimer's patients. Again, never said it was. I said it was used to treat some Alzheimer's. It is. I did not call it the sole treatment.
Hair and skin improvements could happen on all diets but I doubt it. SAD is doubtful. But even if it true, so what? If vegan, keto, Mediterranean, dash, whatever ,improves skin and hair for some, it doesn't make the possible benefits less true for each individual diet. Some diets will help some people more than others. On a everything in moderation diet, my skin is horrible. If I cut carbs and add fats, it is great. My son gets acne from a high carbs and milk. Moderate carbs and low milk works best for him. For him, a high carb diet with milk has no skin benefit although it could for another. Reducing carbs and dairy is a clear dietary benefit for him, it just won't apply to everyone. For me, moderate carbs cause pimples. And we don't have much crap in the house.
Basing your information on one single study is a poor message, that is the point. You seem to see a study here and there and automatically update your benefits list like a resume. I think its dishonest to provide that type of hype.
Also, SAD isnt a diet.. its a description of how the average American person eats.
And using your logic, you can say any of those things listed are benefits of almost every diet. Which means, its not really the diet, its the transition away from a SAD diet. So sure, if you want to attribute the benefit to Keto, then ok, but it wasn't keto, it was moving off of a crap diet.
And FYI, those were the same benefits of vegan, paleo, low carb, IF, etc... And those were based on books i have read.7 -
Keto has a few benefits that people may experience:
- Reduced hunger and cravings so weight loss feels easier. Those with IR may lose marginally faster - maybe 6 lbs more in a year than they would on a higher carb diet; for healthy people, there is no metabolic advantage and the Lise just as fast on higher carb.
- More stable blood glucose and possibly a stop, partial or full reversal of conditions associated with insulin resistance like T2D, prediabetes, PCOS, NAFLD.
- Used to treat Alzheimer's, stroke and brain injury. Some use it to prevent migraines.
- People often notice an improvement in cognition
- Can be used to help some with developmental problems like autism.
- some use it to treat IBS
- For most, it improves cholesterol and reduces inflammation reducing risk of CVD.
- treats epilepsy
- Better skin and hair
- It eliminated my reactive hypoglycemia and postural hypotension
- Lower inflammation can be used to help treat some autoimmune problems
Like any diet or drug, these benefit so will not be true for everyone. Many of the benefits can be achieved using other diets, drugs or weight loss.
I started keto to deal with autoimmune issues and to lower my BG as it crept up to prediabetic levels. I knew I needed a diet to reduce inflammation. I'd been trying to lose a bit of weight to get into the middle of a normal BMI range by eating more fruits, veggies and lean meats while cutting calories, as prescribed by my doctor to address my IR. Instead I ended up gaining almost 20 pounds and becoming overweight. I decided LCHF would be smart as it lowers inflammation. Once I cut out refined carbs I felt so much better that I kept going to keto. Better energy, thinking, easier weight loss, better BP and skin were all happy side effects. I've stayed mostly keto for over three years now.WholeFoods4Lyfe wrote: »Since you are already googling, you could probably read a few other links, but Keto is not new. The human body is designed to produce Ketones for fuel, it's just that medically it has been found to be an effective diet for certain brain disorders, like epilepsy. It's also been found to be a very satiating diet for many making it easier to create a calorie deficit.
If you want a personal experience, I'll give you mine.
I started out Morbidly Obese and diagnosed with Metabolic Syndrome. I also have/had severe GERD and Erosive Esophogitis, and a Dairy and Gluten Intolerance. I started out following a Low Carb Diet which was easy when I eliminated dairy and gluten. I noticed that I physically felt better. Keto was just a natural progression for me, because in addition to feeling better on a low carb diet, I realized that fat was satiating for me and helped me to create a calorie deficit, plus, my GERD symptoms were better. Once going full Keto, my GERD symptoms completely resolved. My blood glucose numbers normalized, my blood pressure normalized, and my Cholesterol numbers got better (they were never that bad though). Keto for me is a lifestyle. I never realized how sick I felt all the time, until I didn't. This isn't just about weight loss for me, though the 60+ pounds I've lost is awesome, it's about improving my overall health, so I tend to eat a lot more whole foods than I ever did when I was eating a SAD. People can woo me all you want, but this is a lifestyle for me and something that I plan to follow for the rest of my life. Maybe not always Keto, but definitely a low carb whole foods diet.
Thanks for the explanation! So I've also heard of the Atkins diet, is it pretty much the same thing then? And I'm curious too how your cholesterol went down, wouldn't it go up if you're eating mostly meats for your protein? Or do you eat mostly vegetarian? I'm also curious do those carbs you eliminate include veggies?
There are some vegetarian keto'ers but not a lot. Refined carbs are usually cut back on first. Most also limit starchy root veggies and fruit. Some keto'ers eat a fair bit of veggies with every meal and some eat almost none.
As a general rule, and excluding those few with familial hypercholesterolemia, increasing fats and lowering carbs (especially refined and highly processed) will usually increase HDL, lower triglycerides (which creates a good HDL triglycerides ratio), and improve the particle size of LDL to the larger and less dense variety which is not associated with CVD. Total cholesterol often goes up because HDL is higher, but it is an outdated test that is of little use. LDL seems to rise in close to half of all keto'ers and fall or stay for the rest. As I mentioned, the particle size is improved so it's not something to worry about.
Dave Feldman has been doing interesting experiments with cholesterol. He's discovered that increasing fat (and calories) results in a predictable drop in LDL about 3 days later. If you increase carbs or eat at a deficit, cholesterol rises instead. It's quite interesting.
http://cholesterolcode.comhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZu52duIqno&vl=enhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0LuKwsz9Woc
Let's be honest, most of those benefits are driven by weight loss and the same results of any diet that induces weight loss. Also, it should be noted that keto is one therapy to reduce progession of Alzheimer's but its not a stand alone treatment... Meaning its a possible component of several treats (i.e., meds, cogntivie therapy, etc..)
Its good if you are fine with practically eliminating carbs and find fat filling. I cycle keto and high carb to improve fat mobilization and do high carb to reduce the impacts of glycogen depletion, and reduce/eliminate the impacts on leptin/ghrelin as it relates to dieting.
I did say many of those benefits can be achieved by other diets, drugs and weight loss. Not denying that. But, most of the benefits I listed can be achieved with ketosis without weight loss such as reduced hunger, stable and lower BG, treatment for Alzheimer's and brain injury and migraines, improved cognition, autism and epilepsy treatment, IBS treatment, better skin and hair, improved reactive hypoglycemia and postural hypotension, improved cholesterol and lower inflammation... Huh, that was everything I listed except CVD improvements - I'm not sure just improving cholesterol and lowering inflammation is enough to reduce CVD risk.
The issue is, you believe if it helped even one person its a benefit (i.e., autism), then you believe its a benefit of the diet. That simple isnt true. A diet related benefit would apply to a greater majority of those who follow it (i.e., stable BG in those with IR).
With Alzheimer's there may be a slowing in the progression in some but keto alone cant be used; meaning drug intervention and other therapies have to be used first. Hunger suppression happens with some, just like every diet that gets you to focus on high quality foods. Better skin and hair is the same non sense promoted on every diet. Again, that is largely driven by going off crap diets and moving on a diet of quality foods.
The point is, if the benefit is for every diet, than its not really a benefit because its not the diet causing the benefit.
I understand your point, but I think you are not correct in how you are applying it.
The autism study I last linked, which someone brought up, had 60% of the patients show improvement on the diet. That is not just one. I've never said if it helps one it helps all. That's some pretty odd thinking. In this case, 60% was a majority and would not be a bad result for a drug.
I know keto is not used alone for Alzheimer's patients. Again, never said it was. I said it was used to treat some Alzheimer's. It is. I did not call it the sole treatment.
Hair and skin improvements could happen on all diets but I doubt it. SAD is doubtful. But even if it true, so what? If vegan, keto, Mediterranean, dash, whatever ,improves skin and hair for some, it doesn't make the possible benefits less true for each individual diet. Some diets will help some people more than others. On a everything in moderation diet, my skin is horrible. If I cut carbs and add fats, it is great. My son gets acne from a high carbs and milk. Moderate carbs and low milk works best for him. For him, a high carb diet with milk has no skin benefit although it could for another. Reducing carbs and dairy is a clear dietary benefit for him, it just won't apply to everyone. For me, moderate carbs cause pimples. And we don't have much crap in the house.
Basing your information on one single study is a poor message, that is the point. You seem to see a study here and there and automatically update your benefits list like a resume. I think its dishonest to provide that type of hype.
Also, SAD isnt a diet.. its a description of how the average American person eats.
And using your logic, you can say any of those things listed are benefits of almost every diet. Which means, its not really the diet, its the transition away from a SAD diet. So sure, if you want to attribute the benefit to Keto, then ok, but it wasn't keto, it was moving off of a crap diet.
And FYI, those were the same benefits of vegan, paleo, low carb, IF, etc... And those were based on books i have read.
+1!! Especially to the bolded.
Edited to add: Just for clarity, the study regarding autistics was 30 participants. Not a huge study by any means. So, 60% of a small number. Even the researchers only claimed that it warranted further study and not that it was conclusive in any way. So, counting this as a benefit on a list of possible keto benefits is indeed questionable.
8 -
amusedmonkey wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »The benefits of the Mediterranean diet:
* May slow down cognitive decline and can be protective against Alzheimer's
* Can improve the mental health of people with depression
* Reduces inflammation
* Can prevent heart disease and promote metabolic syndrome remission
* Associated with improved osteoarthritis symptoms
* Has a dose-dependent protective association with the presence, number, and thickness of plaques independent of other risk factors.
I can go on and write pages of this for the Mediterranean diet, and then start an even longer list for a vegetarian or vegan diet. I may even dabble in the effect of flexible dieting on mental health and eating disorder prevalence.
Yep, you could. I did say that many of the benefits that I listed could be found in other diets, with weight loss or drugs. There are only a few of the items that seem to be due to ketones only, but there would be health benefits seen in some other diets that are not seen in keto, I'm sure.
Sure, but what's the point? Since most diets provide benefits (most of which are achieved through weight loss, anyway) why make these lists? It oversells the diet. Keto is currently a craze, so contributing to it with such assertions isn't doing people any favors. People are feeling "forced" to join the craze because "it's the best diet ever that will give you the best results and health benefits and if you're not doing it, you don't care about your health" and "carbs are scary and will make you gain weight or kill you". They don't need more encouragement than the current media barrage, they need more toned down info to encourage realistic expectations and focus on preference and sustainability above all.
Because they asked. It was the entire point of this thread.
I did not say best diet ever, or that all others are inferior. Nor did I mention the horror if carbs. I gave them the information requested, and will assume they are grown ups and will look into it if interested. The OP stated they were not going to try it. No one tried to push him to try it. I don't think people need a censor checking on what content they are allowed to see.
Evidence either way, good and bad, is what I think people should be given. Keto is no worse or better for weight loss. I think sustainability is about similar too. It has health benefits for some (although those with familial hypercholesterolemia could be hurt by it) I can't see why people should not know about keto when they ask. Knowledge is power.
Because some are false promises. Its why people go keto or plant based when they get cancer... Because there is a stigma or belief that there is a benefit because its promoted. I have literally seen a post of a young guy would didn't want chemo or get treatment because he heard the keto can prevent and cure cancer.7 -
amusedmonkey wrote: »The benefits of the Mediterranean diet:
* May slow down cognitive decline and can be protective against Alzheimer's
* Can improve the mental health of people with depression
* Reduces inflammation
* Can prevent heart disease and promote metabolic syndrome remission
* Associated with improved osteoarthritis symptoms
* Has a dose-dependent protective association with the presence, number, and thickness of plaques independent of other risk factors.
I can go on and write pages of this for the Mediterranean diet, and then start an even longer list for a vegetarian or vegan diet. I may even dabble in the effect of flexible dieting on mental health and eating disorder prevalence.
Yep, you could. I did say that many of the benefits that I listed could be found in other diets, with weight loss or drugs. There are only a few of the items that seem to be due to ketones only, but there would be health benefits seen in some other diets that are not seen in keto, I'm sure.
Allow me to explain why people have an issue with what you're saying using an example:
Statement:
"Some find easier to control weight when counting calories"
This is a fact. Some do find it easier to control weight when counting calories. However, other do not. This accounts for this variation in opinion.
Statement:
"I find it is easier to control weight when counting calories."
This statement is an opinion. It is clearly your own opinion and should be viewed as such.
Statement:
"It is easier to control weight when counting calories."
This statement is an opinion but is presented as a fact. It implies that everyone finds it easier, when this is not the case.
Presenting opinions as facts is something that really grinds people's gears. Mostly because there will be people who do not recognise that that you have said is opinion, and will assume it is fact.
People woo those who say "keto is the best diet" because there is evidence that disproves this statement. This statement is an opinion. That is not a fact, but it is masquerading as one. However "keto is the best diet for me" doesn't get woos, because it's clearly an opinion.
I understand what you've said, but no one said keto is the best diet here. No one. I pointed out the possible benefits of keto for some people. I never said it applied to everyone.
I did not give my opinion on how keto should affect people. I listed how it might affect some people - possible benefits that could occur.
Sadly "keto is the best diet for me" does get woo'ed. It's the norm for MFP. It's reputation is keto unfriendly. If you look through most keto threads, they tend to end up like this one. That's why very few people will start a second keto thread on the main forums. They usually retreat to the low carb or keto forums, or leave the boards entirely.
But I agree with others that the woo button is pretty useless. I don't often use it or even notice it.
4 -
Responding to posts and answering questions - even if biased by personal experiences - is not a poor message, dishonest or hype - that's your bias. I'll woo that BS all day long.10
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amusedmonkey wrote: »Actually, most woo'ing occurs based on internet personalities (one group vs another). I have 2 or 3 people who woo my post regardless of what i say... Even when i promote the keto/lchf diet).
Ultimately, most claims for most diets are baseless or have little relation to the diet itself. Its generally the improvements to food quality, increase in activity and controlling calories.
Eta: the same goes for likes.. people get likes based on cliques. I often get less likes with details responses as compared to the person quoting me saying they agree.. probably because i am a mod.
I have a woo stalker too. I've been getting a woo on most of my posts (at least the ones the stalker catches) even if they're 100% benign and uncontroversial.
I could say the sky is blue and get woo'd. It's just cliques.
5 -
AlabasterVerve wrote: »Responding to posts and answering questions - even if biased by personal experiences - is not a poor message, dishonest or hype - that's your bias. I'll woo that BS all day long.
Ironic post is ironic.
I prefer to take evidence based on meta analyses rather than investigative studies and anecdotal evidence.4 -
amusedmonkey wrote: »Actually, most woo'ing occurs based on internet personalities (one group vs another). I have 2 or 3 people who woo my post regardless of what i say... Even when i promote the keto/lchf diet).
Ultimately, most claims for most diets are baseless or have little relation to the diet itself. Its generally the improvements to food quality, increase in activity and controlling calories.
Eta: the same goes for likes.. people get likes based on cliques. I often get less likes with details responses as compared to the person quoting me saying they agree.. probably because i am a mod.
I have a woo stalker too. I've been getting a woo on most of my posts (at least the ones the stalker catches) even if they're 100% benign and uncontroversial.
I could say the sky is blue and get woo'd. It's just cliques.
That's a more convenient rationalization than actually reading and giving consideration to what multiple people are telling you about how your posts come across I guess.....
As if groups of people who don't know each other and are located all over the world become cliques like 7th graders. Lol7 -
amusedmonkey wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »The benefits of the Mediterranean diet:
* May slow down cognitive decline and can be protective against Alzheimer's
* Can improve the mental health of people with depression
* Reduces inflammation
* Can prevent heart disease and promote metabolic syndrome remission
* Associated with improved osteoarthritis symptoms
* Has a dose-dependent protective association with the presence, number, and thickness of plaques independent of other risk factors.
I can go on and write pages of this for the Mediterranean diet, and then start an even longer list for a vegetarian or vegan diet. I may even dabble in the effect of flexible dieting on mental health and eating disorder prevalence.
Yep, you could. I did say that many of the benefits that I listed could be found in other diets, with weight loss or drugs. There are only a few of the items that seem to be due to ketones only, but there would be health benefits seen in some other diets that are not seen in keto, I'm sure.
Sure, but what's the point? Since most diets provide benefits (most of which are achieved through weight loss, anyway) why make these lists? It oversells the diet. Keto is currently a craze, so contributing to it with such assertions isn't doing people any favors. People are feeling "forced" to join the craze because "it's the best diet ever that will give you the best results and health benefits and if you're not doing it, you don't care about your health" and "carbs are scary and will make you gain weight or kill you". They don't need more encouragement than the current media barrage, they need more toned down info to encourage realistic expectations and focus on preference and sustainability above all.
Because they asked. It was the entire point of this thread.
I did not say best diet ever, or that all others are inferior. Nor did I mention the horror if carbs. I gave them the information requested, and will assume they are grown ups and will look into it if interested. The OP stated they were not going to try it. No one tried to push him to try it. I don't think people need a censor checking on what content they are allowed to see.
Evidence either way, good and bad, is what I think people should be given. Keto is no worse or better for weight loss. I think sustainability is about similar too. It has health benefits for some (although those with familial hypercholesterolemia could be hurt by it) I can't see why people should not know about keto when they ask. Knowledge is power.
Because some are false promises. Its why people go keto or plant based when they get cancer... Because there is a stigma or belief that there is a benefit because its promoted. I have literally seen a post of a young guy would didn't want chemo or get treatment because he heard the keto can prevent and cure cancer.
I can see where people should not say it is the best, but if there is a benefit I think people have the right to know and then make their own choices. Not giving people all the facts because of a few morons is way too over protective, IMO, and seems like the workings of a nanny state.
So you are saying that I should not state the benefits of keto, in a thread asking what keto is good for, because someone got some bad information? No information is not a good counter for bad information.Keto has a few benefits that people may experience:- Reduced hunger and cravings so weight loss feels easier. Those with IR may lose marginally faster - maybe 6 lbs more in a year than they would on a higher carb diet; for healthy people, there is no metabolic advantage and the Lise just as fast on higher carb.
- More stable blood glucose and possibly a stop, partial or full reversal of conditions associated with insulin resistance like T2D, prediabetes, PCOS, NAFLD.
- Used to treat Alzheimer's, stroke and brain injury. Some use it to prevent migraines.
- People often notice an improvement in cognition
- Can be used to help some with developmental problems like autism.
- some use it to treat IBS
- For most, it improves cholesterol and reduces inflammation reducing risk of CVD.
- treats epilepsy
- Better skin and hair
- It eliminated my reactive hypoglycemia and postural hypotension
- Lower inflammation can be used to help treat some autoimmune problems
Like any diet or drug, these benefit so will not be true for everyone. Many of the benefits can be achieved using other diets, drugs or weight loss.
I started keto to deal with autoimmune issues and to lower my BG as it crept up to prediabetic levels. I knew I needed a diet to reduce inflammation. I'd been trying to lose a bit of weight to get into the middle of a normal BMI range by eating more fruits, veggies and lean meats while cutting calories, as prescribed by my doctor to address my IR. Instead I ended up gaining almost 20 pounds and becoming overweight. I decided LCHF would be smart as it lowers inflammation. Once I cut out refined carbs I felt so much better that I kept going to keto. Better energy, thinking, easier weight loss, better BP and skin were all happy side effects. I've stayed mostly keto for over three years now.WholeFoods4Lyfe wrote: »Since you are already googling, you could probably read a few other links, but Keto is not new. The human body is designed to produce Ketones for fuel, it's just that medically it has been found to be an effective diet for certain brain disorders, like epilepsy. It's also been found to be a very satiating diet for many making it easier to create a calorie deficit.
If you want a personal experience, I'll give you mine.
I started out Morbidly Obese and diagnosed with Metabolic Syndrome. I also have/had severe GERD and Erosive Esophogitis, and a Dairy and Gluten Intolerance. I started out following a Low Carb Diet which was easy when I eliminated dairy and gluten. I noticed that I physically felt better. Keto was just a natural progression for me, because in addition to feeling better on a low carb diet, I realized that fat was satiating for me and helped me to create a calorie deficit, plus, my GERD symptoms were better. Once going full Keto, my GERD symptoms completely resolved. My blood glucose numbers normalized, my blood pressure normalized, and my Cholesterol numbers got better (they were never that bad though). Keto for me is a lifestyle. I never realized how sick I felt all the time, until I didn't. This isn't just about weight loss for me, though the 60+ pounds I've lost is awesome, it's about improving my overall health, so I tend to eat a lot more whole foods than I ever did when I was eating a SAD. People can woo me all you want, but this is a lifestyle for me and something that I plan to follow for the rest of my life. Maybe not always Keto, but definitely a low carb whole foods diet.
Thanks for the explanation! So I've also heard of the Atkins diet, is it pretty much the same thing then? And I'm curious too how your cholesterol went down, wouldn't it go up if you're eating mostly meats for your protein? Or do you eat mostly vegetarian? I'm also curious do those carbs you eliminate include veggies?
There are some vegetarian keto'ers but not a lot. Refined carbs are usually cut back on first. Most also limit starchy root veggies and fruit. Some keto'ers eat a fair bit of veggies with every meal and some eat almost none.
As a general rule, and excluding those few with familial hypercholesterolemia, increasing fats and lowering carbs (especially refined and highly processed) will usually increase HDL, lower triglycerides (which creates a good HDL triglycerides ratio), and improve the particle size of LDL to the larger and less dense variety which is not associated with CVD. Total cholesterol often goes up because HDL is higher, but it is an outdated test that is of little use. LDL seems to rise in close to half of all keto'ers and fall or stay for the rest. As I mentioned, the particle size is improved so it's not something to worry about.
Dave Feldman has been doing interesting experiments with cholesterol. He's discovered that increasing fat (and calories) results in a predictable drop in LDL about 3 days later. If you increase carbs or eat at a deficit, cholesterol rises instead. It's quite interesting.
http://cholesterolcode.comhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZu52duIqno&vl=enhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0LuKwsz9Woc
Let's be honest, most of those benefits are driven by weight loss and the same results of any diet that induces weight loss. Also, it should be noted that keto is one therapy to reduce progession of Alzheimer's but its not a stand alone treatment... Meaning its a possible component of several treats (i.e., meds, cogntivie therapy, etc..)
Its good if you are fine with practically eliminating carbs and find fat filling. I cycle keto and high carb to improve fat mobilization and do high carb to reduce the impacts of glycogen depletion, and reduce/eliminate the impacts on leptin/ghrelin as it relates to dieting.
I did say many of those benefits can be achieved by other diets, drugs and weight loss. Not denying that. But, most of the benefits I listed can be achieved with ketosis without weight loss such as reduced hunger, stable and lower BG, treatment for Alzheimer's and brain injury and migraines, improved cognition, autism and epilepsy treatment, IBS treatment, better skin and hair, improved reactive hypoglycemia and postural hypotension, improved cholesterol and lower inflammation... Huh, that was everything I listed except CVD improvements - I'm not sure just improving cholesterol and lowering inflammation is enough to reduce CVD risk.
The issue is, you believe if it helped even one person its a benefit (i.e., autism), then you believe its a benefit of the diet. That simple isnt true. A diet related benefit would apply to a greater majority of those who follow it (i.e., stable BG in those with IR).
With Alzheimer's there may be a slowing in the progression in some but keto alone cant be used; meaning drug intervention and other therapies have to be used first. Hunger suppression happens with some, just like every diet that gets you to focus on high quality foods. Better skin and hair is the same non sense promoted on every diet. Again, that is largely driven by going off crap diets and moving on a diet of quality foods.
The point is, if the benefit is for every diet, than its not really a benefit because its not the diet causing the benefit.
I understand your point, but I think you are not correct in how you are applying it.
The autism study I last linked, which someone brought up, had 60% of the patients show improvement on the diet. That is not just one. I've never said if it helps one it helps all. That's some pretty odd thinking. In this case, 60% was a majority and would not be a bad result for a drug.
I know keto is not used alone for Alzheimer's patients. Again, never said it was. I said it was used to treat some Alzheimer's. It is. I did not call it the sole treatment.
Hair and skin improvements could happen on all diets but I doubt it. SAD is doubtful. But even if it true, so what? If vegan, keto, Mediterranean, dash, whatever ,improves skin and hair for some, it doesn't make the possible benefits less true for each individual diet. Some diets will help some people more than others. On a everything in moderation diet, my skin is horrible. If I cut carbs and add fats, it is great. My son gets acne from a high carbs and milk. Moderate carbs and low milk works best for him. For him, a high carb diet with milk has no skin benefit although it could for another. Reducing carbs and dairy is a clear dietary benefit for him, it just won't apply to everyone. For me, moderate carbs cause pimples. And we don't have much crap in the house.
Basing your information on one single study is a poor message, that is the point. You seem to see a study here and there and automatically update your benefits list like a resume. I think its dishonest to provide that type of hype.
Also, SAD isnt a diet.. its a description of how the average American person eats.
And using your logic, you can say any of those things listed are benefits of almost every diet. Which means, its not really the diet, its the transition away from a SAD diet. So sure, if you want to attribute the benefit to Keto, then ok, but it wasn't keto, it was moving off of a crap diet.
And FYI, those were the same benefits of vegan, paleo, low carb, IF, etc... And those were based on books i have read.
That single autism study was the first thing I googled on a different thread. There were lists of keto and autism studies. I just mentioned the first one. On a different thread. It is not a little known fact. Perhaps not known to you or some others but to people who have read up on keto, itis far from an obscure fact. Mentioning it is not dishonest. I completely disagree.
SAD is a diet. A diet is what people eat. The Standard American Diet is a diet, just like keto is a diets that labels how people set up their macros, and vegan is a label for those who do not use animal products.
And yes, as I have said multiple times, keto is not exclusive in its dietary benefits. There are other diets that give the same benefits. Awesome. More options for people!9 -
Lillymoo01 wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »The benefits of the Mediterranean diet:
* May slow down cognitive decline and can be protective against Alzheimer's
* Can improve the mental health of people with depression
* Reduces inflammation
* Can prevent heart disease and promote metabolic syndrome remission
* Associated with improved osteoarthritis symptoms
* Has a dose-dependent protective association with the presence, number, and thickness of plaques independent of other risk factors.
I can go on and write pages of this for the Mediterranean diet, and then start an even longer list for a vegetarian or vegan diet. I may even dabble in the effect of flexible dieting on mental health and eating disorder prevalence.
Yep, you could. I did say that many of the benefits that I listed could be found in other diets, with weight loss or drugs. There are only a few of the items that seem to be due to ketones only, but there would be health benefits seen in some other diets that are not seen in keto, I'm sure.
My friendly suggestion to you. Look at posts made by those following keto and compare the posts of those that continue to get woo's and those that don't. There is a reason for it. Your wording gives the impression that keto is some magic diet with so many medical benefits even though you believe your wording says differently. Most of these things happen because of weight loss, increased physical activity and potentially a decrease in processed foods, not because of keto itself. You know this, you think this is what you are saying, but it is not how people are interpreting what you are saying.
Until you can see this for yourself you are more likely to be a hinderance rather than a help to those wanting to start out.
On the flip side, when your posts are in relation to difficulties some are having with keto (salt deficiency for example) they are totally on point because they are based on fact rather than woo and personal opinion.
Eh, I don't get the "magic diet" impression from @nvmomketo's posts at all. I think she does a great job qualifying statements. And I have to give her major props for being willing to support keto out here on the main boards.5 -
kshama2001 wrote: »Lillymoo01 wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »The benefits of the Mediterranean diet:
* May slow down cognitive decline and can be protective against Alzheimer's
* Can improve the mental health of people with depression
* Reduces inflammation
* Can prevent heart disease and promote metabolic syndrome remission
* Associated with improved osteoarthritis symptoms
* Has a dose-dependent protective association with the presence, number, and thickness of plaques independent of other risk factors.
I can go on and write pages of this for the Mediterranean diet, and then start an even longer list for a vegetarian or vegan diet. I may even dabble in the effect of flexible dieting on mental health and eating disorder prevalence.
Yep, you could. I did say that many of the benefits that I listed could be found in other diets, with weight loss or drugs. There are only a few of the items that seem to be due to ketones only, but there would be health benefits seen in some other diets that are not seen in keto, I'm sure.
My friendly suggestion to you. Look at posts made by those following keto and compare the posts of those that continue to get woo's and those that don't. There is a reason for it. Your wording gives the impression that keto is some magic diet with so many medical benefits even though you believe your wording says differently. Most of these things happen because of weight loss, increased physical activity and potentially a decrease in processed foods, not because of keto itself. You know this, you think this is what you are saying, but it is not how people are interpreting what you are saying.
Until you can see this for yourself you are more likely to be a hinderance rather than a help to those wanting to start out.
On the flip side, when your posts are in relation to difficulties some are having with keto (salt deficiency for example) they are totally on point because they are based on fact rather than woo and personal opinion.
Eh, I don't get the "magic diet" impression from @nvmomketo's posts at all. I think she does a great job qualifying statements. And I have to give her major props for being willing to support keto out here on the main boards.
Thank you.
thats kind of you to say.4
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