Coming off keto

nvmomketo

psuLemon wrote: »

nvmomketo wrote: »

psuLemon wrote: »

nvmomketo wrote: »

psuLemon wrote: »

nvmomketo wrote: »

Hope it works well for you. I'll be travelling a bit this summer, and I expect my carb levels will rise a bit then too.

stevencloser wrote: »

It really doesn't matter much if you're a healthy individual.
Just be prepared to jump up some pounds from your glycogen levels rising.

For someone who has been keto for quite some time, and has become fat adapted, their glycogen stores should be full. Depleted glycogen stores that need refilling would generally only apply to someone who is not fat adapted, and new to keto, or who depleted glycogen through exercise.

The water retention will more likely come from increased insulin levels (from inclused blood glucose) which causes the kidneys to hold onto more electrolytes and water. Conversely, fewer carbs = less insulin = water and electrolyte losses.

Someone who is following ketogenic is not going to replenish liver glycogen storage. A normal person can hold maintain roughly 300-500g of glycogen. And if your glycogen is replenish, you wouldn't be producing high levels of ketones as glycogen would the energy source. Its also why if you need quickly available energy, MCTs are recommended.. why because MCT metabolize quickly (love carbs). Its also why even keto athletes carb load pre event.


OP, enjoy your vacation. When i go keto, i can lose 5-7 lbs in a few days and then would regain it when coming off. But enjoy your vacation and if you are concerned with gaining weight, have a greater focus on high protein, high carb less fat (like sub 50g). This is because your body will prioritize glycogen replenishment over energy storage ( its the premise of glycogen super compensation).

I believe that may be wrong, definitely when it comes down to muscles. It is in the early days of a ketogenic diet that glycogen stores are depleted, while the body is still trying to use glucose as its primary fuel. That passes within weeks (definitely by the time one is fat adapted). I suppose there is a chance that ketobucko is not fat adapted yet, but after 11 weeks of ketosis, I find that unlikely.

From the FASTER study - its one study that I know of that compared muscle glycogen (after strenuous exercise) between than of higher carb and ketogenic endurance athletes. Muscle glycogen levels were the same, and they replenished glycogen at almost the same rate even though the low carb athletes were not given any post exercise carbs.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0026049515003340

"3.5. Muscle Glycogen
Compared to baseline, muscle glycogen was significantly decreased by 62% immediately post-exercise and 38% at 2 hours post-exercise in the HC group. The LC group exhibited a similar pattern; muscle glycogen was decreased by 66% immediately post-exercise and 34% at 2 hours post-exercise (Fig. 6A). There were no significant differences in pre-exercise or post-exercise glycogen concentrations between groups."

If anything, low carb athletes replenished their glycogen slightly faster than the higher carb group.



The liver was not biopsied, unlike the muscles. I doubt it would be any different. If you have information that shows otherwise, I'd love to take a look.

Just to point out, muscle glycogen is extremely important and will be replenished first. This study doesn't look at total body glycogen. And if you read what I wrote, I talked about liver glycogen vs skeletal/muscle glycogen.

Right. I got that. As I said, I don't know why the liver would be different than muscles.

Why would muscle glycogen be replenished before liver glycogen? Knowing liver glycogen is used by RBCs and the brain. I would think that would be a priority rather than feeding muscles for possible shirt explosive movements.

Skeletal glycogen is used to help maintain blood glucose, where the liver can produce ketones for energy. It really just comes down to prioritization of needs. For example, if you deplete total body glycogen over a period, when you refeed (which can occur as quick as 24 hours), your body will prioritize glycogen replenishment over energy storage; this is what glycogen supercompensation comes into play. This often means, you can eat significant amounts of calories (pending fats are pretty low) without any fat gain, and often fat loss. This is part of the premise of diets like UD2 (along with increasing fatty acid mobilization during low carb days as means to increase blood flow to "stubborn" areas). Also, another benefit of carb refeeds is the associated increase in leptin and decreases in ghrelin.

It's actually, all rather fascinating and complex stuff.

I'll have to go read more. It is interesting. I don't know much about UD2.

But, I was under the impression that muscle glycogen is used by that muscle and is not available to other body parts unlike liver glycogen. The energy stored in the muscle glycogen is mainly unavailable to RBCs and the brain. I think it is the liver's glycogen that get used if needed, as using the glucose that the liver produced.

I would think that if it is the liver making glucose via gluconeogenesis, that it would replenish its own glycogen fairly quickly. I'm guessing.