Ketogenic diet for weight loss:yes or no?

llstacy

"However, the loss of muscle is also higher in ketogenic groups. That's what science says."

No it doesn't.

mrmagee3

I must have had amazing abs because I've been losing in the mid-section. This muscle loss discussion is nonsensical, you're losing weight and it's mostly body fat.

Of course it is. Science lies.

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"You're losing weight and it's mostly body fat."

You actually disagree with that, ninerbuff? That would mean you believe that you're losing more weight from muscle than fat -- I'd be interested in seeing anything that backs that belief up.

I don't disagree. I was being sarcastic about the "muscle loss being nonsensical". The responses are implying that ALL muscle is being lost when the article doesn't state that.
Research DOES show one loses more fat on ketogenic than any other diet when calorie values are the same. I don't dispute that since it's been researched and confirmed. However, the loss of muscle is also higher in ketogenic groups. That's what science says.
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I surely haven't read all of the science out there -- and would definitely be interested in reading more of what you have -- but at the face, I'm not sure I understand what those two mean, together:

1. Research does show that one loses more fat on keto than any other diet when calorie values are the same, and
2. Research also shows that the loss of muscle is also higher in keto groups.

So, at a given caloric value, people on keto are losing more of both fat and muscle? Wouldn't the two, together, directly contradict the idea of a deficit being a deficit for weight loss?

I could understand if a keto group and a non-keto group, at similar caloric deficit, lost similar weight of a differing makeup (maybe one lost more fat, one lost more muscle, etc.) -- but losing both more fat and more muscle than a non-keto group would lead one to believe that the keto groups lose more weight per unit of caloric deficit than their non-keto counterparts. Thoughts?

AlabasterVerve

In ANY weight loss there will be some muscle loss. There is no dispute amongst any journals of medicine or physiology on this. The amount lost will depend on some variables. And building muscle on calorie deficit, as well as being ketogenic is highly unlikely. To build muscle you are adding mass. To add mass, then weight increases. To variably "exchange" fat energy for muscle increase isn't as easy as it sounds. Here's a thread I posted on ketogenic diets and muscle building.

http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/578951-ketogenic-diets-not-good-for-muscle-building?hl=ketogenic+diets+don't+build+muscle#posts-12328942

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I stopped reading at this point... what nonsense:

KETOGENIC DIETS DRIVE AN EXTRAORDINARY LOSS OF MUSCLE MASS
While ketogenic diets do tend to stimulate fast weight loss, one of the major drawbacks of the ketogenic diet is that a significant percentage of that bodyweight lost is muscle mass.

I would like to hear your argument on this?

Not my argument; feel free to look up studies done on very low carb ketogenic diets. You don't even have far to search since some links were already posted in this very thread.

I have and will continue to do so! You stated it was nonsense, and I was just curious on why you think that. Don't get me wrong, I just like hearing both sides of the argument.

I'm sorry, I guess it doesn't make for a great discussion but that claim is just so ridiculous and no matter what research you provide it doesn't matter. I've been there, done that and I'm just not interested in having this discussion anymore.

I try and ignore the ignorant posts but sometimes I get sucked in.

ninerbuff

"However, the loss of muscle is also higher in ketogenic groups. That's what science says."

No it doesn't.

Let me reiterate:
KETOGENIC DIETS DRIVE AN EXTRAORDINARY LOSS OF MUSCLE MASS
While ketogenic diets do tend to stimulate fast weight loss, one of the major drawbacks of the ketogenic diet is that a significant percentage of that bodyweight lost is muscle mass. This negative aspect of the ketogenic diet occurs despite the fact that the body typically prefers to burn either carbohydrates or fat for energy instead of muscle protein, even during times of reduced caloric consumption. For some reason, ketogenic diets generate a greater than normal preference for muscle protein as an energy source during hypocaloric consumption. This phenomenon appears to be partially due to the poor regulation of the all-important nutrient-sensing molecule mTOR from the low-carbohydrate ketogenic diet.

Now where does it NOT say that muscle loss doesn't occur?


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mrmagee3

"However, the loss of muscle is also higher in ketogenic groups. That's what science says."

No it doesn't.

Let me reiterate:
KETOGENIC DIETS DRIVE AN EXTRAORDINARY LOSS OF MUSCLE MASS
While ketogenic diets do tend to stimulate fast weight loss, one of the major drawbacks of the ketogenic diet is that a significant percentage of that bodyweight lost is muscle mass. This negative aspect of the ketogenic diet occurs despite the fact that the body typically prefers to burn either carbohydrates or fat for energy instead of muscle protein, even during times of reduced caloric consumption. For some reason, ketogenic diets generate a greater than normal preference for muscle protein as an energy source during hypocaloric consumption. This phenomenon appears to be partially due to the poor regulation of the all-important nutrient-sensing molecule mTOR from the low-carbohydrate ketogenic diet.

Now where does it NOT say that muscle loss doesn't occur?


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Where's that from, by the way? I did a quick google and can't find it. I like reading the original sources.

For the sake of discussion, here are some articles that refute it:
http://archive.ispub.com/journal/the-internet-journal-of-nutrition-and-wellness/volume-4-number-2/arguments-in-favor-of-ketogenic-diets.html#e-40
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0026049502000100

ninerbuff

I must have had amazing abs because I've been losing in the mid-section. This muscle loss discussion is nonsensical, you're losing weight and it's mostly body fat.

Of course it is. Science lies.

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"You're losing weight and it's mostly body fat."

You actually disagree with that, ninerbuff? That would mean you believe that you're losing more weight from muscle than fat -- I'd be interested in seeing anything that backs that belief up.

I don't disagree. I was being sarcastic about the "muscle loss being nonsensical". The responses are implying that ALL muscle is being lost when the article doesn't state that.
Research DOES show one loses more fat on ketogenic than any other diet when calorie values are the same. I don't dispute that since it's been researched and confirmed. However, the loss of muscle is also higher in ketogenic groups. That's what science says.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
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I surely haven't read all of the science out there -- and would definitely be interested in reading more of what you have -- but at the face, I'm not sure I understand what those two mean, together:

1. Research does show that one loses more fat on keto than any other diet when calorie values are the same, and
2. Research also shows that the loss of muscle is also higher in keto groups.

So, at a given caloric value, people on keto are losing more of both fat and muscle? Wouldn't the two, together, directly contradict the idea of a deficit being a deficit for weight loss?

I could understand if a keto group and a non-keto group, at similar caloric deficit, lost similar weight of a differing makeup (maybe one lost more fat, one lost more muscle, etc.) -- but losing both more fat and more muscle than a non-keto group would lead one to believe that the keto groups lose more weight per unit of caloric deficit than their non-keto counterparts. Thoughts?

Carbs are muscle sparing. From research I've studied, I have yet to find a study that compares both like this. There are some done on fat loss, but not muscle loss if both are doing the same programs of exercise.

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neanderthin

I must have had amazing abs because I've been losing in the mid-section. This muscle loss discussion is nonsensical, you're losing weight and it's mostly body fat.

Of course it is. Science lies.

A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
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Been in fitness industry for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

"You're losing weight and it's mostly body fat."

You actually disagree with that, ninerbuff? That would mean you believe that you're losing more weight from muscle than fat -- I'd be interested in seeing anything that backs that belief up.

I don't disagree. I was being sarcastic about the "muscle loss being nonsensical". The responses are implying that ALL muscle is being lost when the article doesn't state that.
Research DOES show one loses more fat on ketogenic than any other diet when calorie values are the same. I don't dispute that since it's been researched and confirmed. However, the loss of muscle is also higher in ketogenic groups. That's what science says.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness industry for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

I surely haven't read all of the science out there -- and would definitely be interested in reading more of what you have -- but at the face, I'm not sure I understand what those two mean, together:

1. Research does show that one loses more fat on keto than any other diet when calorie values are the same, and
2. Research also shows that the loss of muscle is also higher in keto groups.

So, at a given caloric value, people on keto are losing more of both fat and muscle? Wouldn't the two, together, directly contradict the idea of a deficit being a deficit for weight loss?

I could understand if a keto group and a non-keto group, at similar caloric deficit, lost similar weight of a differing makeup (maybe one lost more fat, one lost more muscle, etc.) -- but losing both more fat and more muscle than a non-keto group would lead one to believe that the keto groups lose more weight per unit of caloric deficit than their non-keto counterparts. Thoughts?

As studies bear out, there is no advantage in weight loss in a low carb diet/keto so basically that statement would be false if the data was from 1 study. I would assume the overall data from multiple studies indicate both can happen, but not in the same study. I would imagine we can find the same loses with multiple macro breakdowns, so I don't know in real life how important that is given the variables that can be utilized to maximize and minimize both fat and muscle loss.

ninerbuff

In ANY weight loss there will be some muscle loss. There is no dispute amongst any journals of medicine or physiology on this. The amount lost will depend on some variables. And building muscle on calorie deficit, as well as being ketogenic is highly unlikely. To build muscle you are adding mass. To add mass, then weight increases. To variably "exchange" fat energy for muscle increase isn't as easy as it sounds. Here's a thread I posted on ketogenic diets and muscle building.

http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/578951-ketogenic-diets-not-good-for-muscle-building?hl=ketogenic+diets+don't+build+muscle#posts-12328942

A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
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I stopped reading at this point... what nonsense:

KETOGENIC DIETS DRIVE AN EXTRAORDINARY LOSS OF MUSCLE MASS
While ketogenic diets do tend to stimulate fast weight loss, one of the major drawbacks of the ketogenic diet is that a significant percentage of that bodyweight lost is muscle mass.

I would like to hear your argument on this?

Not my argument; feel free to look up studies done on very low carb ketogenic diets. You don't even have far to search since some links were already posted in this very thread.

I have and will continue to do so! You stated it was nonsense, and I was just curious on why you think that. Don't get me wrong, I just like hearing both sides of the argument.

I'm sorry, I guess it doesn't make for a great discussion but that claim is just so ridiculous and no matter what research you provide it doesn't matter. I've been there, done that and I'm just not interested in having this discussion anymore.

I try and ignore the ignorant posts but sometimes I get sucked in.

Argumentum ad antiquitatem

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mrmagee3

Argumentum ad antiquitatem

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This is pedantic and non-topical, but that's not argumentum ad antiquitatem. That's refusing to have an argument based on prior experience.

An example would be, "The use of leeches as a treatment for sepsis is the best treatment for the condition, because it is what we have been doing for hundreds of years."

Alabaster isn't appealing to tradition as a method of furthering their position -- they're just saying they aren't willing to argue, based on prior knowledge.

ninerbuff

Argumentum ad antiquitatem

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This is pedantic and non-topical, but that's not argumentum ad antiquitatem. That's refusing to have an argument based on prior experience.

An example would be, "The use of leeches as a treatment for sepsis is the best treatment for the condition, because it is what we have been doing for hundreds of years."

Alabaster isn't appealing to tradition as a method of furthering their position -- they're just saying they aren't willing to argue, based on prior knowledge.

I believe it's appropriate. Not willing to accept any other research and KNOWS it works because it always has. Been awhile since I've debated so I could be using the wrong phrase.

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rosemaryhon

The only reason for such an extreme diet would be if you had a medical condition and it was recommended by your doctor/dietitian. For weight loss, going to such an extreme could actually hamper your long-term goal of *keeping* the extra fat off because you will not have learned proper portion sizes and you will likely gain back your losses and then some, once you have gone back to normal eating.

Been eating keto for over 4 months. Why do you think that I don't know what proper portion sizes are? I weigh and measure all my food just like most of MFP does. I understand portion sizes very well, thank you very much. As far as I'm concerned, this is a lifestyle change. Anyone that thinks, after losing weight on any diet, that they can go back to 'normal eating' and not gain it all back is sadly mistaken.

Which is why that for *most* people, it's better to learn moderation of their favorite foods rather than simply avoiding them. I could go a month or two without ice cream, but not much longer than that.

This is the problem with so many of your posts slamming lifestyles that you do not understand. When there are health issues to do with metabolism, "moderation" is a myth. Why should someone continue doing something that fails just because people like you think it's "balanced" and that they are suffering without their "favourite" foods. My favourite foods are still in my diet. My favourites have always been steak, bacon, pork chops, ribs, butter, green salads, etc.

And guess what feels better than anything tastes? Perfect health.

This ^^ is a good point and strikes a cord with me too. My favorite foods have simply never been things like ice cream. But seems some just don't believe that ~ some seem to assume because THEY love ice cream (etc), that we all must.

mrmagee3

This ^^ is a good point and strikes a cord with me too. My favorite foods have simply never been things like ice cream. But seems some just don't believe that ~ some seem to assume because THEY love ice cream (etc), that we all must.

I'm kind of agnostic on the idea of sugar being addictive, but the way people have built entire diet plans around allowing themselves to consume it strikes me as odd.

nmomketo

I am dabbling in low carb high fat diet but I'm not quite at the keto ratios yet. I'm at about a 2:1 ratio of fats to protein and carbs and it is working fairly well so far. I am pretty new into it so i'm not feeling good yet - have had a headache for days and haven't lost my carb cravings yet. I know that it is just my body switching over to ketosis so I'm not worried.

I have always been able to lose weight with a low carb diet, which I switched to after discovering that I am a celiac, but the very low carb diet is new for me. I am also lowering my protein to adequate levels because protein can be turned into some sugars, and that can restrict your ketone production. High protein is anti-ketogenic...as I understand it.

The keto diet is good for weight loss, but I am beginning it for other health reasons. i have a very high IGF-1 that I am hoping to help control with low carbs and adequate protein (and minimal dairy). Ketones do no feed tumours, at least in malignant tumours, and a (benign) tumour is what usually causes a high IGF-1. If I have something on my pituitary that I didn't invite to be there, I don't want to feed the gate crasher too. LOL

I too have heard that the keto diet, without large calorie restriction, actually helps preserve muscle better than other "diets".
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1373635/

Just my thoughts.... I'm still learning.

mito123

Buzz,

Add salt to eliminate headache. I'm working my way into ketosis as well and this has really helped. Your body processes salt differently in ketosis so you need more (see Phinney and Volk). Extra salt on food or cups of bouillon between meals helps. Also try few spoons of coconut oil bet meals to deal with cravings. Good luck!

Mito

Mr_Knight

I can only speak to my own personal experience. Doing a very low carb ketogenic diet did cause me to lose significant muscle mass. I came out of it weaker than I went in, and that was with doing a regular bodyweight exercises (pushups, squats, pullups, etc). I also lost significant fat weight, too, of course, but the muscle loss was surprising, and not what I was lead to believe would happen (not blaming anyone, I make my own choices!)

I have since evolved to a add a significant amount of cardio and strength training and have reincorporated carbs back into my meal plans.

ETA: The reason I missed the early stages of muscle loss was precisely because I was losing weight - passing the mirror test, and bodyweight exercises get easier the less you weigh. It wasn't until I moved to free weights that I realized my strength was declining relative to an external standard. If I were to make a suggestion to anyone considering this, it would be to follow a regular strength training program so you can monitor what is happening and make adjustment early, *if* necessary.

ewrob

If you are going to consider a low-carb diet, I believe that it would be best to consider one that is plant-based in order to reduce risk of heart disease and other maladies.

http://health.usnews.com/health-news/diet-fitness/heart/articles/2010/09/10/the-best-low-carbohydrate-diet-one-thats-plant-based

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