Runners knee
FL_Hiker
Posts: 919 Member
Hi y'all,
In the midst of my marathon training I've started having knee pain after my long runs. I felt this same pain when I was in high school on the cross country team and saw a doctor who I believe told me I had runners knee. I didn't listen to anything he said at the time besides "nothing is broken or fractured" so all I cared about was I was able to finish my upcoming races (not smart!). Now I'm having this pain in my knees again, during my long runs I feel great except for my knees. After the run, it hurts mostly to just stand up, or walk up stairs. Walking normally isn't painful at all. I'm only half way through my marathon training so I know things could just get a lot worse but I don't want to give up.. has anyone dealt with this before? What can I do to help it heal?
Thanks in advance
In the midst of my marathon training I've started having knee pain after my long runs. I felt this same pain when I was in high school on the cross country team and saw a doctor who I believe told me I had runners knee. I didn't listen to anything he said at the time besides "nothing is broken or fractured" so all I cared about was I was able to finish my upcoming races (not smart!). Now I'm having this pain in my knees again, during my long runs I feel great except for my knees. After the run, it hurts mostly to just stand up, or walk up stairs. Walking normally isn't painful at all. I'm only half way through my marathon training so I know things could just get a lot worse but I don't want to give up.. has anyone dealt with this before? What can I do to help it heal?
Thanks in advance
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Replies
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I will start out by saying I am 70 so different circumstances. I run about 6 miles a day and swim most mornings at least 5 days a week. My orthopedist and my PT said almost all knee pain is caused by muscular disbalance ITB to tight the outside of the knee hurts. Weakness in the quads and tight hamstrings the top of the knee cap hurts, weak muscles in the inner thigh and the inside of the knee hurts. And then there is arthritic pain which is in the knee and the fluid or meniscus padding wears. I have experienced all at one time or another I was very heavy 10 years ago and put a lot of strain on my joints, my knee has been scoped and my left hip replaced over the last few years. I start to neglect my stretching and want to just run without doing my squats and other exercises and I eventually start getting pain in the knee. Muscle imbalance allows the knee to be pulled either to the outside or inside as you stride and so eventually pain.
I am no Dr. just my personal experiences other than being a 70 yr old who probably does to much running and not enough exercise and stretching who has bouts of knee pain every so often.
If you can find a PT who either runs or knows runners problems and let them know where the pain is should be able to provide exercise and stretches
Have a good race8 -
I don't really have any suggestions, but I can sympathize. When I was in my 20s, I tried running as a form of exercise. I got runner's knee so badly during the first week that I could not walk down stairs (up wasn't so bad, but down was murder) for like two weeks afterwards. I tried everything -- varying my shoes, inserts in my shoes, knee braces, varying the type of surface I ran on, run/walk intervals, stretches, etc. Nothing helped.
My solution was just not to run anymore and to do other types of exercise and now I'm 40 and haven't had the problem again. That doesn't sound like an option for you, if you are really dedicated to marathon training.
I can do like two Shaun T. workouts (even two Insanity workouts) back to back without issue, I just can't run. I have come to accept this.1 -
What do you do for cross training?0
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TavistockToad wrote: »What do you do for cross training?
I used to swim back in high school when it was really bad, and it didn't seem to help. Right now on my cross train days I just walk the dog which probably isn't the best I know... If I remember right you do some weight training to prevent running injuries? What exercises do you do?0 -
TavistockToad wrote: »What do you do for cross training?
I used to swim back in high school when it was really bad, and it didn't seem to help. Right now on my cross train days I just walk the dog which probably isn't the best I know... If I remember right you do some weight training to prevent running injuries? What exercises do you do?
I do stationary bike for cross training and a full body weights programme 2 x a week.2 -
.. has anyone dealt with this before?
Yes, I've had Illiotibial Band Syndrome. Largely from running through the pain at a Half, and it stopped me training for about six weeks.
What can I do to help it heal?
Thanks in advance
Speak to a physiotherapist. There are several different conditions that might be described as runners knee, and appropriate treatments vary. Some treatments for one variant might be contraindicated for another.
Fwiw most of my cross training is on the bike or swimming.
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I'd love to see a physio or doctor again but our insurance doesn't cover it and i'm broke lol. Kinda stuck here figuring it out on my own
... I couldn't imagine riding a bike right now, that kind of movement really aggravates it.
Edit I also don't own a bike0 -
I've read working on the surrounding muscles helps? Glute exercises with stretch bands? My phyiso back in highschool told me to stand next to a wall and move my leg out and back in several times. I did that the entire cross country season and it did absolutely nothing.0
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I'd love to see a physio or doctor again but our insurance doesn't cover it and i'm broke lol. Kinda stuck here figuring it out on my own ... I couldn't imagine riding a bike right now, that kind of movement really aggravates it.
We aren't saying that cycling is good for runners knee, just that it's good cross training for runners.0 -
I'd love to see a physio or doctor again but our insurance doesn't cover it and i'm broke lol. Kinda stuck here figuring it out on my own ... I couldn't imagine riding a bike right now, that kind of movement really aggravates it.
Edit I also don't own a bike
Does your insurance cover seeing a GP? While an orthopedist and/or sports medicine doctor would be ideal (as would a referral to a physical therapist), a GP would be better than the internet.0 -
TavistockToad wrote: »I'd love to see a physio or doctor again but our insurance doesn't cover it and i'm broke lol. Kinda stuck here figuring it out on my own ... I couldn't imagine riding a bike right now, that kind of movement really aggravates it.
We aren't saying that cycling is good for runners knee, just that it's good cross training for runners.
And that's the crux of the problem. It might be the best option, it might cause more damage. Without a proper diagnosis there's no way to tell.0 -
I'd love to see a physio or doctor again but our insurance doesn't cover it and i'm broke lol. Kinda stuck here figuring it out on my own ... I couldn't imagine riding a bike right now, that kind of movement really aggravates it.
Edit I also don't own a bike
Does your insurance cover seeing a GP? While an orthopedist and/or sports medicine doctor would be ideal (as would a referral to a physical therapist), a GP would be better than the internet.
No we have a pretty high deductible to meet .
I also don't own a bike so cycling is out either way...0 -
Some questions
How is your form?
How are your shoes?
Are you pushing it to fast before your knees have a chance to develop?
If you are only half way through your training and having an issue, would it be better to slow your training and lessen the risk of a more serious issue?
I think cycling is great for strengthening the knees, as well as hiking and trail running.
But as mentioned, you need to know specifically what is wrong first.0 -
My doctor said I had "runners knee" and that was all.OldAssDude wrote: »Some questions
How is your form? Okay I think? I ran competitively in high school and my coach never said anything negative but that's all I have to go by
How are your shoes?Much better, I started off training with old shoes but my new pair has been helping a lot.
Are you pushing it to fast before your knees have a chance to develop?im following Hal Higdons novice 1 marathon plan. My knees are super painful the day of the long run, but by the next day they are 80% better, and by Monday they feel completely better
If you are only half way through your training and having an issue, would it be better to slow your training and lessen the risk of a more serious issue?Thats a good idea, but I already want to run further lol
I think cycling is great for strengthening the knees, as well as hiking and trail running. Trail running is a good idea?
I don't own a bike so that's completely out. Also not a fan of biking. I plan to do a lot of hiking when the trails aren't so flooded though!
But as mentioned, you need to know specifically what is wrong first.
Thanks!0 -
I dealt with it for nearly two years and tried EVERYTHING. Finally had to give up running. This helped. Jumper's straps will help mitigate the pain but only rest will eliminate it completely. A bad case can take 2/3 months of rest to get rid of.
https://www.amazon.com/Patella-Relief-Hiking-Basketball-Volleyball/dp/B013TIJ40Q/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?s=sporting-goods&ie=UTF8&qid=1536609347&sr=1-1-spons&keywords=jumper's+knee+strap&psc=11 -
MikePfirrman wrote: »I dealt with it for nearly two years and tried EVERYTHING. Finally had to give up running. This helped. Jumper's straps will help mitigate the pain but only rest will eliminate it completely. A bad case can take 2/3 months of rest to get rid of.
https://www.amazon.com/Patella-Relief-Hiking-Basketball-Volleyball/dp/B013TIJ40Q/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?s=sporting-goods&ie=UTF8&qid=1536609347&sr=1-1-spons&keywords=jumper's+knee+strap&psc=1
Thank you!!!! I will have to try these 😊0 -
MikePfirrman wrote: »I dealt with it for nearly two years and tried EVERYTHING. Finally had to give up running. This helped. Jumper's straps will help mitigate the pain but only rest will eliminate it completely. A bad case can take 2/3 months of rest to get rid of.
https://www.amazon.com/Patella-Relief-Hiking-Basketball-Volleyball/dp/B013TIJ40Q/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?s=sporting-goods&ie=UTF8&qid=1536609347&sr=1-1-spons&keywords=jumper's+knee+strap&psc=1
Thank you!!!! I will have to try these 😊
Have you seen a doctor now who diagnosed it as 'runners knee'?0 -
TavistockToad wrote: »MikePfirrman wrote: »I dealt with it for nearly two years and tried EVERYTHING. Finally had to give up running. This helped. Jumper's straps will help mitigate the pain but only rest will eliminate it completely. A bad case can take 2/3 months of rest to get rid of.
https://www.amazon.com/Patella-Relief-Hiking-Basketball-Volleyball/dp/B013TIJ40Q/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?s=sporting-goods&ie=UTF8&qid=1536609347&sr=1-1-spons&keywords=jumper's+knee+strap&psc=1
Thank you!!!! I will have to try these 😊
Have you seen a doctor now who diagnosed it as 'runners knee'?
No I can't go to the Dr right now because I have crappy insurance. But it feels exactly the same as it used to. It wasn't that long ago.0 -
If it's Runner's Knee, it will hurt more going downstairs (a lot more) than going up them.0
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How old are your shoes?
If this developed after you had been doing a lot of running, it could be an overuse injury but it could also be that ou need to replace shoes that you have worn out.0 -
TavistockToad wrote: »MikePfirrman wrote: »I dealt with it for nearly two years and tried EVERYTHING. Finally had to give up running. This helped. Jumper's straps will help mitigate the pain but only rest will eliminate it completely. A bad case can take 2/3 months of rest to get rid of.
https://www.amazon.com/Patella-Relief-Hiking-Basketball-Volleyball/dp/B013TIJ40Q/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?s=sporting-goods&ie=UTF8&qid=1536609347&sr=1-1-spons&keywords=jumper's+knee+strap&psc=1
Thank you!!!! I will have to try these 😊
Have you seen a doctor now who diagnosed it as 'runners knee'?
No I can't go to the Dr right now because I have crappy insurance. But it feels exactly the same as it used to. It wasn't that long ago.
Where in the knee is the pain? Front or back, top or bottom. Can you describe the pain?0 -
TavistockToad wrote: »MikePfirrman wrote: »I dealt with it for nearly two years and tried EVERYTHING. Finally had to give up running. This helped. Jumper's straps will help mitigate the pain but only rest will eliminate it completely. A bad case can take 2/3 months of rest to get rid of.
https://www.amazon.com/Patella-Relief-Hiking-Basketball-Volleyball/dp/B013TIJ40Q/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?s=sporting-goods&ie=UTF8&qid=1536609347&sr=1-1-spons&keywords=jumper's+knee+strap&psc=1
Thank you!!!! I will have to try these 😊
Have you seen a doctor now who diagnosed it as 'runners knee'?
No I can't go to the Dr right now because I have crappy insurance. But it feels exactly the same as it used to. It wasn't that long ago.
I was just going to say don't use a brace unless it's been recommended by a doc/physio as it can do more harm than good.
Did a brace help last time?1 -
MeanderingMammal wrote: »TavistockToad wrote: »MikePfirrman wrote: »I dealt with it for nearly two years and tried EVERYTHING. Finally had to give up running. This helped. Jumper's straps will help mitigate the pain but only rest will eliminate it completely. A bad case can take 2/3 months of rest to get rid of.
https://www.amazon.com/Patella-Relief-Hiking-Basketball-Volleyball/dp/B013TIJ40Q/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?s=sporting-goods&ie=UTF8&qid=1536609347&sr=1-1-spons&keywords=jumper's+knee+strap&psc=1
Thank you!!!! I will have to try these 😊
Have you seen a doctor now who diagnosed it as 'runners knee'?
No I can't go to the Dr right now because I have crappy insurance. But it feels exactly the same as it used to. It wasn't that long ago.
Where in the knee is the pain? Front or back, top or bottom. Can you describe the pain?
It feels like the knee cap or behind the knee cap, it doesn't really hurt unless I move it in a certain way. Walking for example doesn't bother it at all but If I'm sitting down and then go to stand up it's difficult to stand and pretty painful, same with going up or down stairs but the down is worse, even just sitting in the car aggravates it because of the angle a car seat puts them in. The pain is hard to describe I guess I would say it's more sharp pain. Back when I was told it was runners knee they took an x ray and didn't see anything else wrong. Everyone in my family that is older has had double knee replacements and arthritic knees though, so I'm hoping I'm not doomed ? My long runs are on Saturdays, but by Monday the pain is completely gone, they just feel a little weird. It's been like that since my training so I've kept training since it goes away pretty quickly. In the past it did not, but I also didn't used to take rest days. I'm wondering if I can get by and finish the training because those rest days seem to be giving me enough to recover?0 -
TavistockToad wrote: »TavistockToad wrote: »MikePfirrman wrote: »I dealt with it for nearly two years and tried EVERYTHING. Finally had to give up running. This helped. Jumper's straps will help mitigate the pain but only rest will eliminate it completely. A bad case can take 2/3 months of rest to get rid of.
https://www.amazon.com/Patella-Relief-Hiking-Basketball-Volleyball/dp/B013TIJ40Q/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?s=sporting-goods&ie=UTF8&qid=1536609347&sr=1-1-spons&keywords=jumper's+knee+strap&psc=1
Thank you!!!! I will have to try these 😊
Have you seen a doctor now who diagnosed it as 'runners knee'?
No I can't go to the Dr right now because I have crappy insurance. But it feels exactly the same as it used to. It wasn't that long ago.
I was just going to say don't use a brace unless it's been recommended by a doc/physio as it can do more harm than good.
Did a brace help last time?
That's a really good point. I didn't use a brace last time because when I asked this Dr if I should he told me "it won't help, but it won't hurt. I wouldn't bother wearing a brace." I kind of want to try though and see for myself ?0 -
Aw man, sorry to hear. I'd talk to a physio. Hopefully rest and stretching does the job (but not too long a rest!)I will start out by saying I am 70 so different circumstances. I run about 6 miles a day and swim most mornings at least 5 days a week. My orthopedist and my PT said almost all knee pain is caused by muscular disbalance ITB to tight the outside of the knee hurts. Weakness in the quads and tight hamstrings the top of the knee cap hurts, weak muscles in the inner thigh and the inside of the knee hurts.
Now THIS sounds familiar! I do know I need to do more strenght training and expand my stretching (while I stretch, I am missing a lot of areas).0 -
MeanderingMammal wrote: »TavistockToad wrote: »MikePfirrman wrote: »I dealt with it for nearly two years and tried EVERYTHING. Finally had to give up running. This helped. Jumper's straps will help mitigate the pain but only rest will eliminate it completely. A bad case can take 2/3 months of rest to get rid of.
https://www.amazon.com/Patella-Relief-Hiking-Basketball-Volleyball/dp/B013TIJ40Q/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?s=sporting-goods&ie=UTF8&qid=1536609347&sr=1-1-spons&keywords=jumper's+knee+strap&psc=1
Thank you!!!! I will have to try these 😊
Have you seen a doctor now who diagnosed it as 'runners knee'?
No I can't go to the Dr right now because I have crappy insurance. But it feels exactly the same as it used to. It wasn't that long ago.
Where in the knee is the pain? Front or back, top or bottom. Can you describe the pain?
It feels like the knee cap or behind the knee cap, it doesn't really hurt unless I move it in a certain way. Walking for example doesn't bother it at all but If I'm sitting down and then go to stand up it's difficult to stand and pretty painful, same with going up or down stairs but the down is worse, even just sitting in the car aggravates it because of the angle a car seat puts them in. The pain is hard to describe I guess I would say it's more sharp pain. Back when I was told it was runners knee they took an x ray and didn't see anything else wrong. Everyone in my family that is older has had double knee replacements and arthritic knees though, so I'm hoping I'm not doomed ? My long runs are on Saturdays, but by Monday the pain is completely gone, they just feel a little weird. It's been like that since my training so I've kept training since it goes away pretty quickly. In the past it did not, but I also didn't used to take rest days. I'm wondering if I can get by and finish the training because those rest days seem to be giving me enough to recover?
Thanks. The challenge with saying runners knee is that there are at least seven different conditions that its a term for. What you're describing might suggest either Illiotibial Band Syndrome or patellar tendonopathy. It may be bursitis but that sounds less likely.
Given that a month ago you were posting about training plans and your low mileage was highlighted as an issue I'd suggest that you've got an overuse injury.
You're not going to like this answer, but first priority is rest until it's healed. That's probably at least a couple of weeks. Whilst you're not experiencing pain after a day, you're progressively making the damage worse by continuing to run on it.
In both potential issues you've then got to work on core strength. Some form of cross training is essential as what's probably contributing is weak hips.
I would suggest that you moderate your expectations of a marathon in November.1 -
MeanderingMammal wrote: »MeanderingMammal wrote: »TavistockToad wrote: »MikePfirrman wrote: »I dealt with it for nearly two years and tried EVERYTHING. Finally had to give up running. This helped. Jumper's straps will help mitigate the pain but only rest will eliminate it completely. A bad case can take 2/3 months of rest to get rid of.
https://www.amazon.com/Patella-Relief-Hiking-Basketball-Volleyball/dp/B013TIJ40Q/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?s=sporting-goods&ie=UTF8&qid=1536609347&sr=1-1-spons&keywords=jumper's+knee+strap&psc=1
Thank you!!!! I will have to try these 😊
Have you seen a doctor now who diagnosed it as 'runners knee'?
No I can't go to the Dr right now because I have crappy insurance. But it feels exactly the same as it used to. It wasn't that long ago.
Where in the knee is the pain? Front or back, top or bottom. Can you describe the pain?
It feels like the knee cap or behind the knee cap, it doesn't really hurt unless I move it in a certain way. Walking for example doesn't bother it at all but If I'm sitting down and then go to stand up it's difficult to stand and pretty painful, same with going up or down stairs but the down is worse, even just sitting in the car aggravates it because of the angle a car seat puts them in. The pain is hard to describe I guess I would say it's more sharp pain. Back when I was told it was runners knee they took an x ray and didn't see anything else wrong. Everyone in my family that is older has had double knee replacements and arthritic knees though, so I'm hoping I'm not doomed ? My long runs are on Saturdays, but by Monday the pain is completely gone, they just feel a little weird. It's been like that since my training so I've kept training since it goes away pretty quickly. In the past it did not, but I also didn't used to take rest days. I'm wondering if I can get by and finish the training because those rest days seem to be giving me enough to recover?
Thanks. The challenge with saying runners knee is that there are at least seven different conditions that its a term for. What you're describing might suggest either Illiotibial Band Syndrome or patellar tendonopathy. It may be bursitis but that sounds less likely.
Given that a month ago you were posting about training plans and your low mileage was highlighted as an issue I'd suggest that you've got an overuse injury.
You're not going to like this answer, but first priority is rest until it's healed. That's probably at least a couple of weeks. Whilst you're not experiencing pain after a day, you're progressively making the damage worse by continuing to run on it.
In both potential issues you've then got to work on core strength. Some form of cross training is essential as what's probably contributing is weak hips.
I would suggest that you moderate your expectations of a marathon in November.
concur...i hate the diagnosis of runner's knee because it could mean many things...
@FLHiker - i understand you have a high deductible - but if you want to continue running, then you may (TBH) need to suck it up and get it diagnosed - it you continue running, you may be long-term damage that will cost more to remediate in the future0 -
I'm following the same marathon training plan you mentioned you are using. I'm not sure what week you are at with your training. I just completed week 13 (a total of 36 miles, with the long run at 18 miles). I can tell you it's getting pretty intense with the longer runs and this much mileage each week. I've been running pretty steadily for ~12 years and had a solid base before starting the training plan. The 16 and 18 mile runs, combined with an equivalent number of miles mid-week, has really challenged me.
Take my advice for what you will, but if I were injured (or starting to feel an injury coming on), at any point in my marathon training, I would back off on the running and aim to heal first and secondly to pick a race further out.
There are always races to run. I wish you all the best and hope you heal quickly and get back on track. 1 -
I have this same issue going on right now and it's sooooo frustrating!! I don't run but I have been working out 7 days a week on my treadmill and doing a lot of running in place to get those extra steps in on my Fitbit. I was just really starting to like exercise and was heading towards beginning to jog. I also read that office workers can get what's called "runners knee." Yes, I'm an office worker. I tried riding my recumbent bike but that hurts. Going down stairs is a killer. I read about strengthening my quadriceps but I can't do squats because I will aggravate an old groin pull injury. Rest seems to be the only option. But for how long???
@FL_Hiker, I hope you are better soon. I understand about the insurance thing. I'm on a self-pay plan and my deductible is super high so I really want to avoid the doctor if possible.
1 -
TeresaW1020 wrote: »I have this same issue going on right now and it's sooooo frustrating!! I don't run but I have been working out 7 days a week on my treadmill and doing a lot of running in place to get those extra steps in on my Fitbit. I was just really starting to like exercise and was heading towards beginning to jog. I also read that office workers can get what's called "runners knee." Yes, I'm an office worker. I tried riding my recumbent bike but that hurts. Going down stairs is a killer. I read about strengthening my quadriceps but I can't do squats because I will aggravate an old groin pull injury. Rest seems to be the only option. But for how long???
@FL_Hiker, I hope you are better soon. I understand about the insurance thing. I'm on a self-pay plan and my deductible is super high so I really want to avoid the doctor if possible.
Thanks Teresa I hope our knees get better soon lol! Rest really is the best...
I just can't give up, I'm going to keep pushing and try to judge it the best I can. I'm taking my runs a bit slower, also the marathon isn't until the end of janurary not November I picked a further out race to give myself more time. I went and ran 10 miles on my rest day last week with my friend and I think that probably didn't help either... I know it'd be smarter to call it quits and stop but I just won't. I wish there were some exercises or something I could do to help strengthen those other supporting muscle groups.
Thanks y'all for the advice, I hope you don't have to say I told you so in a few months lol.0
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