Intermittent Fasting
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Lillymoo01 wrote: »I am surprised that I managed to not only lose 40 kgs but keep it off for well over a year by simply reducing calories and increasing exercise to create a deficit and then eat the same amount I was burning to maintain that loss. I haven't gone low carb, I haven't done IF, in fact, I haven't done any eating plan which has a name. I am surprised when reading success stories that others have done exactly the same as me with pretty much the same results.
Now when you call peer reviewed scientific papers, some of them published in the most prestigious journals in the world pseudoscience, that's freedom of speech. We've presented enough research to proof our point that IF does cause metabolic changes inside the body. You can use what you learned (if you even read it) or you can keep repeating your nonsense that no matter what you eat or do does not make any difference in your body.
If that was true that would be truly amazing, because nothing else in the world - no machine, no electromagnetic process, no biologic process, no chemical process, nothing - can process different inputs and always get the exact same results no matter what. If you can't get that into your head I can't help you and quite frankly I'm done trying to provide information that a lot of you clearly don't want to have.
I'll leave you with this article. I will not quote anything from it. Read it or leave it.
https://www.nature.com/articles/nrn.2017.156
Full text: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/322397519_Intermittent_metabolic_switching_neuroplasticity_and_brain_health12 -
Did you read any of the links anvilhead posted? A lot of the studies you like to cite are very poorly designed.9
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GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »Did you read any of the links anvilhead posted?
yes I did. all of them.1 -
Monk_E_Boy wrote: »Monk_E_Boy wrote: »Monk_E_Boy wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »Monk_E_Boy wrote: »I guess I should point out that Calorie Reduction is, in fact, a part of a successful IF regimen. What I’m arguing, is that the idea of Calorie Reduction As Primary... is exactly what its acronym spells out.
Simply reducing calories in (and/or increasing calories out) only works in the short term. We don’t have a weight loss problem in this country, we have a weight re-gain problem. If you don’t address the hormonal aspect of obesity, you won’t be able to fix the problem long-term.
If simply managing calories so that you eat less than you burn only works short term, what produces the energy that causes weight gain long term?
And what is the mechanism by which hormones in and of themselves lead to obesity?
Without getting too complicated:
Eating (which for this conversation will be shorthand for “putting something in your mouth that isn’t water/black coffee/tea”) raises insulin up from your personal baseline.
When insulin is up, its job is to store energy. First it refills your glucose (short term storage), and whatever is leftover goes to your fat cells (long term storage). If your fat cells are all too full, new fat cells will be made for extra storage room.
While insulin is raised above your personal baseline, your body can’t effectively access your storage. When insulin is baselined, your body ‘can’ effectively access your storage.
The amount of storage you have built up will largely determine what your personal baseline of insulin is. More storage, higher baseline. Your insulin baseline can also be thought of as the body’s control mechanism for its weight set point, which it will defend vigorously.
So, “eating” often keeps insulin above its baseline. It tells your body to store the incoming energy, without giving your body a chance to access the energy it has already stored. Any energy out, by design of your non-baselined insulin, will largely be provided by the energy you just recently “ate”, as opposed to the energy you’ve been storing.
You tell your body to store energy every time you eat, if you eat often throughout the day that means you’re storing and not pulling from your storage, and over time you need more and more room to store your energy.
What exactly is your medical background? Or can you point us to resources that led you to adopt this particular understanding of how the endocrine system works?
I have absolutely ZERO medical training, and I wholeheartedly apologize if me sharing what I’ve learned has led you (or anyone else) to think otherwise. I’m not any sort of an expert in anything.
I first got interested in learning more about IF when I found Dr. Jason Fung on YouTube. Since that day I’ve just been doing a lot of reading, listening to different people who have probably forgotten more about science than I’ll ever learn, and trying to piece it all together in a way that I can understand and articulate.
You can attack me if you like, but I’d much rather you refute or clarify any of the points I’ve been making. I’m still very much trying to learn more about how it all works, the more information the better!
Honestly, every doctor, endocrinologist, diabetes counselor, and diabetic I've ever met would refute what you're saying. You are saying the endocrine system works differently than endocrinologists have seen it work in the lab and in their patients. If you are going to state as fact that a bodily system works differently than those that specialize in it report it to work, it's up to you to show your work.
And to be clear, I'm not attacking you, I'm disagreeing with what you are stating as fact.
To be fair, I’m stating things as I understand them.
So far you’ve said that many professionals would disagree with me, which is fine, except that you haven’t said what they’d disagree with. Everything?
I’ve seen lots of studies talk about energy balance without going any deeper, but (and this just an example) if calories in versus calories out is truly the end all be all, shouldn’t diet soft drinks with zero calories have made a positive impact? Why do type 2 diabetics gain weight when they start taking insulin doses? Why do the overwhelming majority of eat less / move more diets fail in the long term? (and if the answer is willpower, why have we as a society become so morally defunct over the past 50 years or so?)
Haven’t you ever thought there might be more to it?
To the bold section above:
It seems to me that you have come to conclusions from incomplete research.
My research on any topic makes every effort to find positive and negative articles and reviews. I will add the words “why not to do” in front of a suggested program search, in addition to looking for reviews on a topic. It’s the only way I know of to increase the chance of making good decisions, and it reduces the chance of making poor decisions that could be avoided through research.
About Dr Jason Fung, and other doctors with an active marketing presence online and on tv.
I personally find it hard to have confidence in doctors who want to sell “secrets”. The idea that weight loss tactics are secrets that have to be purchased for money bothers me very much. At the very least, nothing is a secret once it is told to another person.
Good luck to you, and good fitness to us all.14 -
hobbitses333 wrote: »140 days of 16.8 IF most days, 51 lbs down.
Decreased appetite, decreased cravings, decreased inflammation markers. No science, just actual experience.
Basically I always hated breakfast and loved a huge supper so it kinda went with my natural rythym. It was a "lightbulb" moment when I learned of the concept..
Its not for everyone but its working unlike anything else to help me control calorie intake.
losing weight can also cause less inflammation in the body.8 -
Monk_E_Boy wrote: »I guess I should point out that Calorie Reduction is, in fact, a part of a successful IF regimen. What I’m arguing, is that the idea of Calorie Reduction As Primary... is exactly what its acronym spells out.
Simply reducing calories in (and/or increasing calories out) only works in the short term. We don’t have a weight loss problem in this country, we have a weight re-gain problem. If you don’t address the hormonal aspect of obesity, you won’t be able to fix the problem long-term.
Ahhh....a Fung disciple. His pet terminology is a dead giveaway.
Here's an evidence-based refutation of the disingenuous "CRaP" drivel Fung spews:
https://www.myoleanfitness.com/evidence-caloric-restriction/
Also, more studies and research review for you, in an effort to better your understanding of how things work (both IF and Fung/Taubes' bogus Insulin Hypothesis of Obesity), rather than listening to somebody like Fung, who is a laughingstock amongst the evidence-based research community - or Taubes, who has a degree in journalism, but absolutely no education in health, nutrition or research:
https://www.myoleanfitness.com/intermittent-fasting-vs-traditional-dieting/
https://www.myoleanfitness.com/intermittent-fasting-what-to-eat-drink/
https://weightology.net/insulin-an-undeserved-bad-reputation/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26384657
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/316911061_A_Calorie_is_Still_a_Calorie_According_to_Rigorous_New_Evidence
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1550413115003502
http://sciencedrivennutrition.com/do-carbohydrates-control-body-fat/
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1XK4e7ScvRX8-6J6O1PlmfxaFabsq5zOfvIpXazWKiZU/edit#heading=h.a2dtaycexbp0
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0261561417301255
https://www.iifym.com/intermittent-fasting-myths-debunked/
Disclaimer: I’m just a guy that read stuff on the interwebs. (For comment section legal reasons I must include that information.)
Thank you for posting! I checked out all your links!
I’ve read the Myolean article that talks about a blog post that Fung made. AS I UNDERSTAND IT: they largely agree with him, except for some misquoted percentage numbers (he was still correct, but not by the margin he wrote in a blog rant), and they were upset because Fung said that people’s metabolism slows down when they lose weight. Myolean didn’t disagree, but they felt like he should have compared the person’s metabolic rate to what someone at that current weight should have, not compare it to the rate that the person used to have when that same person was heavier. But, AS I UNDERSTAND IT: that would be ignoring the idea of homeostasis, and that body’s fight to maintain its set weight point. For example, a lighter person who quickly gains 20 pounds would have a higher metabolism, because the body is trying to burn that excess off to get back to its lower set weight. A heavier person who quickly lost 20 pounds would have a slower metabolism, because the body is trying to conserve energy in order get back to its higher set weight. Even if those two people weighed the same as each other after the 20 pound change.
AS I UNDERSTAND IT: I haven’t said an unkind word about insulin, it has a job and it does it well.
AS I UNDERSTAND IT: The abstract in the systematic review of clinical trials says IF works as well as calorie reduction, but with a couple of added benefits.
AS I UNDERSTAND IT: The researchgate article doesn’t talk about IF. Neither do the sciencedirect or the sciencedrivenutrition links. Or the google docs one. The second to last sciencedirect link uses the term “intermittent energy restriction” which, AS I UNDERSTAND IT: is different than intermittent fasting. Intermittent energy restriction could just mean dieting one day and not the next, while still consuming calories on both days. I tried to find more information on what the actual eating schedules looked like, but I couldn’t find any.
The If It Fits Your Macros site has a lot, so...
I checked the references.
AS I UNDERSTAND IT: 12 out of the 22 didn’t involve intermittent fasting.
Of the 10 that did, 1 said it reduced insulin levels, 2 said you burn body fat for fuel when you fast, 1 said alternate daily fasting works well, 2 said that IF lowers your metabolism, and 4 of them were WAY over my head.
There was definitely a lot of great information here! Thanks!8 -
modusoperandi1412 wrote: »Monk_E_Boy wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »Monk_E_Boy wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »Monk_E_Boy wrote: »I guess I should point out that Calorie Reduction is, in fact, a part of a successful IF regimen. What I’m arguing, is that the idea of Calorie Reduction As Primary... is exactly what its acronym spells out.
Simply reducing calories in (and/or increasing calories out) only works in the short term. We don’t have a weight loss problem in this country, we have a weight re-gain problem. If you don’t address the hormonal aspect of obesity, you won’t be able to fix the problem long-term.
If simply managing calories so that you eat less than you burn only works short term, what produces the energy that causes weight gain long term?
And what is the mechanism by which hormones in and of themselves lead to obesity?
Without getting too complicated:
Eating (which for this conversation will be shorthand for “putting something in your mouth that isn’t water/black coffee/tea”) raises insulin up from your personal baseline.
When insulin is up, its job is to store energy. First it refills your glucose (short term storage), and whatever is leftover goes to your fat cells (long term storage). If your fat cells are all too full, new fat cells will be made for extra storage room.
While insulin is raised above your personal baseline, your body can’t effectively access your storage. When insulin is baselined, your body ‘can’ effectively access your storage.
The amount of storage you have built up will largely determine what your personal baseline of insulin is. More storage, higher baseline. Your insulin baseline can also be thought of as the body’s control mechanism for its weight set point, which it will defend vigorously.
So, “eating” often keeps insulin above its baseline. It tells your body to store the incoming energy, without giving your body a chance to access the energy it has already stored. Any energy out, by design of your non-baselined insulin, will largely be provided by the energy you just recently “ate”, as opposed to the energy you’ve been storing.
You tell your body to store energy every time you eat, if you eat often throughout the day that means you’re storing and not pulling from your storage, and over time you need more and more room to store your energy.
You failed to describe how insulin acted independent of energy balance.
Furthermore,
https://weightology.net/insulin-an-undeserved-bad-reputation/
Cute meme.
Calories in versus calories out (or “energy balance”) is based entirely on a one compartment theory. That all the calories we eat go into one compartment, and that when we expend energy, we pull it out of that same compartment. The only problem with that theory, is that it’s wrong.
Calories go in and get sent to different places, one of which is easy to get energy back out of, and one of them isn’t (unless your insulin is at baseline).
No one is “creating or destroying matter”, all the calories are accounted for. You just can’t access a portion of them for fuel if your insulin isn’t baselined.
And that, the act of storing energy as fat combined with not allowing access to said stored energy when above baseline, is how insulin affects obesity independently from energy balance.
But that's just wrong.
Let's just... make an easy example.
Say you're John Everyman who is just a normal guy, sedentary job, etc. whose body needs 2000 calories to function.
Do you get me so far?
John's body needs 2000 calories to function, if it doesn't get 2000 calories, what happens? He doesn't just drop dead like a car that runs out of gas. It takes them from the stores.
Okay?
Now, there's glycogen stores and fat stores in the body, as well as muscle. Where your idea that "fat can only be accessed at baseline insulin" is just wrong comes now.
https://exrx.net/Nutrition/Substrates Where your body takes energy from is directly tied to your current activity, whether your body needs energy fast or not so fast. At rest, 60% of your energy needs are met by fat.
Directly after eating, while you're digesting, part of the nutrients will immediately be used to fuel your body, the rest will be stored. If you IF, since you eat everything over a shorter time frame, you will store more, because it doesn't magically make your body need more all of a sudden. The end result is the same. All the food you ate that your body didn't immediately need got stored and then afterwards will slowly get used again. If you ate less calories than you needed then more fat will be used up than you stored and vice versa.
Oh, and glycogen is readily replenished, but that means the carbs aren't available for use, which means you use fat to make up for the calories you stored in your glycogen, so...
Also, I think you didn't think far enough to realize that if you IF and eat all your calories over a smaller time frame, your insulin spike is going to be larger and longer as more nutrients at once have to be transported. Insulin is driven by need, less to transport, less insulin. More to transport, more insulin.
So, even if you falsely believe that insulin would have to be at baseline to lose fat (it doesn't because "inhibit" is not the same as "completely stop", that would be pretty dangerous if you were eating 10 calories in sugar, your insulin goes up and suddenly you only have 10 calories available for your whole body), the time your insulin is elevated when eating the exact same foods spaced out or in a short time is going to be similar. Multiple short, small elevations vs. fewer but higher and longer ones.
Nice! Very well explained!
Who knows, maybe the dozen other times I’ve restricted calories for extended periods of time and lost very little were just unlucky, and this time with IF is just a happy accident? 13th time’s the charm!
Regardless, the weight is coming off and my energy levels are steady, so I guess I’ll just keep going!
Best of luck in your journey!!5 -
Monk_E_Boy wrote: »modusoperandi1412 wrote: »Monk_E_Boy wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »Monk_E_Boy wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »Monk_E_Boy wrote: »I guess I should point out that Calorie Reduction is, in fact, a part of a successful IF regimen. What I’m arguing, is that the idea of Calorie Reduction As Primary... is exactly what its acronym spells out.
Simply reducing calories in (and/or increasing calories out) only works in the short term. We don’t have a weight loss problem in this country, we have a weight re-gain problem. If you don’t address the hormonal aspect of obesity, you won’t be able to fix the problem long-term.
If simply managing calories so that you eat less than you burn only works short term, what produces the energy that causes weight gain long term?
And what is the mechanism by which hormones in and of themselves lead to obesity?
Without getting too complicated:
Eating (which for this conversation will be shorthand for “putting something in your mouth that isn’t water/black coffee/tea”) raises insulin up from your personal baseline.
When insulin is up, its job is to store energy. First it refills your glucose (short term storage), and whatever is leftover goes to your fat cells (long term storage). If your fat cells are all too full, new fat cells will be made for extra storage room.
While insulin is raised above your personal baseline, your body can’t effectively access your storage. When insulin is baselined, your body ‘can’ effectively access your storage.
The amount of storage you have built up will largely determine what your personal baseline of insulin is. More storage, higher baseline. Your insulin baseline can also be thought of as the body’s control mechanism for its weight set point, which it will defend vigorously.
So, “eating” often keeps insulin above its baseline. It tells your body to store the incoming energy, without giving your body a chance to access the energy it has already stored. Any energy out, by design of your non-baselined insulin, will largely be provided by the energy you just recently “ate”, as opposed to the energy you’ve been storing.
You tell your body to store energy every time you eat, if you eat often throughout the day that means you’re storing and not pulling from your storage, and over time you need more and more room to store your energy.
You failed to describe how insulin acted independent of energy balance.
Furthermore,
https://weightology.net/insulin-an-undeserved-bad-reputation/
Cute meme.
Calories in versus calories out (or “energy balance”) is based entirely on a one compartment theory. That all the calories we eat go into one compartment, and that when we expend energy, we pull it out of that same compartment. The only problem with that theory, is that it’s wrong.
Calories go in and get sent to different places, one of which is easy to get energy back out of, and one of them isn’t (unless your insulin is at baseline).
No one is “creating or destroying matter”, all the calories are accounted for. You just can’t access a portion of them for fuel if your insulin isn’t baselined.
And that, the act of storing energy as fat combined with not allowing access to said stored energy when above baseline, is how insulin affects obesity independently from energy balance.
But that's just wrong.
Let's just... make an easy example.
Say you're John Everyman who is just a normal guy, sedentary job, etc. whose body needs 2000 calories to function.
Do you get me so far?
John's body needs 2000 calories to function, if it doesn't get 2000 calories, what happens? He doesn't just drop dead like a car that runs out of gas. It takes them from the stores.
Okay?
Now, there's glycogen stores and fat stores in the body, as well as muscle. Where your idea that "fat can only be accessed at baseline insulin" is just wrong comes now.
https://exrx.net/Nutrition/Substrates Where your body takes energy from is directly tied to your current activity, whether your body needs energy fast or not so fast. At rest, 60% of your energy needs are met by fat.
Directly after eating, while you're digesting, part of the nutrients will immediately be used to fuel your body, the rest will be stored. If you IF, since you eat everything over a shorter time frame, you will store more, because it doesn't magically make your body need more all of a sudden. The end result is the same. All the food you ate that your body didn't immediately need got stored and then afterwards will slowly get used again. If you ate less calories than you needed then more fat will be used up than you stored and vice versa.
Oh, and glycogen is readily replenished, but that means the carbs aren't available for use, which means you use fat to make up for the calories you stored in your glycogen, so...
Also, I think you didn't think far enough to realize that if you IF and eat all your calories over a smaller time frame, your insulin spike is going to be larger and longer as more nutrients at once have to be transported. Insulin is driven by need, less to transport, less insulin. More to transport, more insulin.
So, even if you falsely believe that insulin would have to be at baseline to lose fat (it doesn't because "inhibit" is not the same as "completely stop", that would be pretty dangerous if you were eating 10 calories in sugar, your insulin goes up and suddenly you only have 10 calories available for your whole body), the time your insulin is elevated when eating the exact same foods spaced out or in a short time is going to be similar. Multiple short, small elevations vs. fewer but higher and longer ones.
Nice! Very well explained!
Who knows, maybe the dozen other times I’ve restricted calories for extended periods of time and lost very little were just unlucky, and this time with IF is just a happy accident? 13th time’s the charm!
Regardless, the weight is coming off and my energy levels are steady, so I guess I’ll just keep going!
Best of luck in your journey!!
What is your daily calorie goal and how long have you been eating at it?
How long were your previous diet attempts?3 -
Monk_E_Boy wrote: »modusoperandi1412 wrote: »Monk_E_Boy wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »Monk_E_Boy wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »Monk_E_Boy wrote: »I guess I should point out that Calorie Reduction is, in fact, a part of a successful IF regimen. What I’m arguing, is that the idea of Calorie Reduction As Primary... is exactly what its acronym spells out.
Simply reducing calories in (and/or increasing calories out) only works in the short term. We don’t have a weight loss problem in this country, we have a weight re-gain problem. If you don’t address the hormonal aspect of obesity, you won’t be able to fix the problem long-term.
If simply managing calories so that you eat less than you burn only works short term, what produces the energy that causes weight gain long term?
And what is the mechanism by which hormones in and of themselves lead to obesity?
Without getting too complicated:
Eating (which for this conversation will be shorthand for “putting something in your mouth that isn’t water/black coffee/tea”) raises insulin up from your personal baseline.
When insulin is up, its job is to store energy. First it refills your glucose (short term storage), and whatever is leftover goes to your fat cells (long term storage). If your fat cells are all too full, new fat cells will be made for extra storage room.
While insulin is raised above your personal baseline, your body can’t effectively access your storage. When insulin is baselined, your body ‘can’ effectively access your storage.
The amount of storage you have built up will largely determine what your personal baseline of insulin is. More storage, higher baseline. Your insulin baseline can also be thought of as the body’s control mechanism for its weight set point, which it will defend vigorously.
So, “eating” often keeps insulin above its baseline. It tells your body to store the incoming energy, without giving your body a chance to access the energy it has already stored. Any energy out, by design of your non-baselined insulin, will largely be provided by the energy you just recently “ate”, as opposed to the energy you’ve been storing.
You tell your body to store energy every time you eat, if you eat often throughout the day that means you’re storing and not pulling from your storage, and over time you need more and more room to store your energy.
You failed to describe how insulin acted independent of energy balance.
Furthermore,
https://weightology.net/insulin-an-undeserved-bad-reputation/
Cute meme.
Calories in versus calories out (or “energy balance”) is based entirely on a one compartment theory. That all the calories we eat go into one compartment, and that when we expend energy, we pull it out of that same compartment. The only problem with that theory, is that it’s wrong.
Calories go in and get sent to different places, one of which is easy to get energy back out of, and one of them isn’t (unless your insulin is at baseline).
No one is “creating or destroying matter”, all the calories are accounted for. You just can’t access a portion of them for fuel if your insulin isn’t baselined.
And that, the act of storing energy as fat combined with not allowing access to said stored energy when above baseline, is how insulin affects obesity independently from energy balance.
But that's just wrong.
Let's just... make an easy example.
Say you're John Everyman who is just a normal guy, sedentary job, etc. whose body needs 2000 calories to function.
Do you get me so far?
John's body needs 2000 calories to function, if it doesn't get 2000 calories, what happens? He doesn't just drop dead like a car that runs out of gas. It takes them from the stores.
Okay?
Now, there's glycogen stores and fat stores in the body, as well as muscle. Where your idea that "fat can only be accessed at baseline insulin" is just wrong comes now.
https://exrx.net/Nutrition/Substrates Where your body takes energy from is directly tied to your current activity, whether your body needs energy fast or not so fast. At rest, 60% of your energy needs are met by fat.
Directly after eating, while you're digesting, part of the nutrients will immediately be used to fuel your body, the rest will be stored. If you IF, since you eat everything over a shorter time frame, you will store more, because it doesn't magically make your body need more all of a sudden. The end result is the same. All the food you ate that your body didn't immediately need got stored and then afterwards will slowly get used again. If you ate less calories than you needed then more fat will be used up than you stored and vice versa.
Oh, and glycogen is readily replenished, but that means the carbs aren't available for use, which means you use fat to make up for the calories you stored in your glycogen, so...
Also, I think you didn't think far enough to realize that if you IF and eat all your calories over a smaller time frame, your insulin spike is going to be larger and longer as more nutrients at once have to be transported. Insulin is driven by need, less to transport, less insulin. More to transport, more insulin.
So, even if you falsely believe that insulin would have to be at baseline to lose fat (it doesn't because "inhibit" is not the same as "completely stop", that would be pretty dangerous if you were eating 10 calories in sugar, your insulin goes up and suddenly you only have 10 calories available for your whole body), the time your insulin is elevated when eating the exact same foods spaced out or in a short time is going to be similar. Multiple short, small elevations vs. fewer but higher and longer ones.
Nice! Very well explained!
Who knows, maybe the dozen other times I’ve restricted calories for extended periods of time and lost very little were just unlucky, and this time with IF is just a happy accident? 13th time’s the charm!
Regardless, the weight is coming off and my energy levels are steady, so I guess I’ll just keep going!
Best of luck in your journey!!
Given that you have a thread asking about minimum calories MFP allows, my vote is on under eating is what's likely causing your weight loss.10 -
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