OK... Teach Me About "Perceived Exertion" And Pace

OldAssDude
OldAssDude Posts: 1,436 Member
edited November 29 in Fitness and Exercise
I am trying to learn about using perceived exertion and using pace to gauge intensity. I still intend to check my HR once in a while to see what it is at different levels of my perception, but i am finding information on perceived exertion and pace is somewhat confusing.

some say you should be able to hold a full conversation, and others say you should be able to hold a broken conversation, and others say you should be able to speak a couple words at a time.

And regarding pace i see things like "race pace", threshold pace", "tempo pace", etc...

And just thinking about it, how can you go by pace if you are running outside with hills and wind and stuff?

What does all this stuff mean?

Then there is some chart that has a bunch of numbers for several different levels of exertion, and other charts that have how you should feel in each heart rate zone (some of which conflict with others).

This is getting pretty frustrating and confusing compared to just looking at what zone i'm in.

could some of you experts maybe explain these things in a simple way?

I understand HR stuff because that is what i learned in the army back in the 1980's when i went through a fitness course, but all this other stuff seems a lot more complicated.

I'm not really concerned about pace, because i run at a snails pace. In fact, a snail would probably beat me in a race... :)

Mainly i want information about how i should be perceiving my workouts.

thanks in advance.
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Replies

  • AnvilHead
    AnvilHead Posts: 18,343 Member
    https://www.runnersblueprint.com/the-complete-guide-to-the-rated-perceived-exertion-rpe-scale/
  • Runaroundafieldx2
    Runaroundafieldx2 Posts: 233 Member
    In all the years I've ran I have never thought about perceived exertion.

    I didn't get into pace work for many years.

    Just run and enjoy it
  • TavistockToad
    TavistockToad Posts: 35,719 Member
    Went for a run this morning and the only song in my head to sing was this!! :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

    https://youtu.be/eYO1-gGWJyo
  • NorthCascades
    NorthCascades Posts: 10,968 Member
    This is a good conversation to have. Hopefully everybody can learn something.

    Your breathing can be a pretty good gauge of exercise intensity. Which shouldn't be a surprise because you're cardiovascular system is about distributing oxygen through your body to the working muscles, and the first step is taking air in.

    You basically get a 4 zone system if you use your breathing: active recovery, VT1, VT2, VO2max.

    VT1 is called the first ventilatory threshold. It is a marker of intensity that can be observed in a person’s breathing at a point where lactate begins to accumulate in the blood. As the intensity of the exercise begins to increase, VT1 can be identified at the point where the breathing rate begins to increase. A person who is at VT1 can no longer talk comfortably,—but can still string together a few words—while exercising,.

    Also observed by way of a person’s breathing during exercise is VT2, or the second ventilatory threshold. It is a higher marker of intensity than VT1. At VT2, lactate has quickly accumulated in the blood and the person needs to breathe heavily. At this rapid rate of breathing, the exerciser can no longer speak. The exercise duration will necessarily decrease due to the intensity level. VT2 can also be called the anaerobic threshold or lactate threshold.

    https://www.acefitness.org/fitness-certifications/resource-center/exam-preparation-blog/3139/what-is-the-difference-between-vt1-vt2-and-vo2-max
  • Charlene____
    Charlene____ Posts: 110 Member
    What is your weekly volume running right now?
  • jjpptt2
    jjpptt2 Posts: 5,650 Member
    edited November 2018
    OldAssDude wrote: »
    I am trying to learn about using perceived exertion and using pace to gauge intensity. I still intend to check my HR once in a while to see what it is at different levels of my perception, but i am finding information on perceived exertion and pace is somewhat confusing.

    some say you should be able to hold a full conversation, and others say you should be able to hold a broken conversation, and others say you should be able to speak a couple words at a time.

    And regarding pace i see things like "race pace", threshold pace", "tempo pace", etc...

    And just thinking about it, how can you go by pace if you are running outside with hills and wind and stuff?

    What does all this stuff mean?

    Then there is some chart that has a bunch of numbers for several different levels of exertion, and other charts that have how you should feel in each heart rate zone (some of which conflict with others).

    This is getting pretty frustrating and confusing compared to just looking at what zone i'm in.

    could some of you experts maybe explain these things in a simple way?

    I understand HR stuff because that is what i learned in the army back in the 1980's when i went through a fitness course, but all this other stuff seems a lot more complicated.

    I'm not really concerned about pace, because i run at a snails pace. In fact, a snail would probably beat me in a race... :)

    Mainly i want information about how i should be perceiving my workouts.

    thanks in advance.

    There's a perceived effort you can comfortably sustain for the duration of your run, and there is a perceived effort you can't sustain comfortably. One is good, one is not.

    You repeatedly mention in your posts that you're just interested in overall, general fitness. But you rarely talk about the frequency with which you run (unless I've missed those posts). Frequency is important, too. More so than HR or pace or most other things.

    If you want to improve... Run slower more often.
  • jennifer_417
    jennifer_417 Posts: 12,344 Member
    To me, "percieved exertion" just means that some exercises "feel" like harder work than others, whether or not they actually are.

    As for what pace you should be aiming for...I'm not expert, but I'd stick with whatever you're comfortable with that will allow you to meet your reasonable fitness goals. Unless you're running marathons (in which case, I'll let the ones who know about that chime in), I really wouldn't worry about all that much.
  • AnvilHead
    AnvilHead Posts: 18,343 Member
    The relation between RPE and pace is also going to be completely subjective and highly varied from person to person. For example, there are a lot of people who can comfortably hold a 7:00 pace for miles and miles - I couldn’t even hold that pace for one mile, and it wouldn’t be anywhere near comfortable. It would be an RPE 10 for me, where it would probably be an RPE of 3-5 for some people.
  • OldAssDude
    OldAssDude Posts: 1,436 Member
    AnvilHead wrote: »
    https://www.runnersblueprint.com/the-complete-guide-to-the-rated-perceived-exertion-rpe-scale/

    Thanks. That was helpful, and i like how it even grouped the different levels into the heart rate zones.
  • AnnPT77
    AnnPT77 Posts: 34,620 Member
    For those who are not OP, it may be worth pointing out that there have been other posts that relate to this one.

    The next paragraph is from memory, so I'm probably remembering something wrong, and other previous participants can correct me if it's material to the discussion.

    OP has done an amazing job losing weight, and improving his fitness and health. That's included a walking program that's become a running program. IIRC, he's been using heart rate to guide training, and using it in a very strict/structured kind of way (X continuous minutes in Y zone), in a context where HRmax is estimated (by methods that include observation, not just age formulas, but still estimated). He'd like to improve, and seems to use pace as a feedback mechanism or motivator. In some of these previous threads, some have suggested he consider pace as an element in structuring training (in addition to a benchmark/feedback/motivation tool) - similar to the "lots of easy pace" advice here; and suggested using RPE as part of the structure and feedback mechanism. (I was probably among them, particularly wrt RPE, even though my training background is in rowing, not running.)

    OldAssDude, I'll defer to the runners and then some, on how to structure running training. I will say that in building fitness/capability in my sport, doing a lot of LSD is a significant part of building base fitness as a platform for improvement (LSD = long, slow distance: what many of us call long LISS).

    I hope I'm not talking at cross-purposes to what I've said before, but I don't see really why you'd need to ignore heart rate data, since you do have it; I just think you want to be thinking about RPE alongside it, not using HR super-prescriptively, especially since you don't have a measured HRmax, and (I think you may) have limited recent experience with your heart rate variability as it results from non-exercise factors (heat, strain, dehydration, overtraining, drift, fatigue etc.). You'll get more understanding of that variability as you continue training, and that will be useful.

    Maybe there's some formula for this kind of stuff, but if there is, I don't know what it is.

    What I'm saying is that if your HR monitor and current HR range estimates suggest you're in one (general, not slavishly arithmetically specific) zone, but your RPE doesn't seem to match up with that (the activity feels notably easier or harder than the HR metric would suggest), then you may want to make adjustments . . . which could be specific to that particular day or place or conditions, even.

    Or, RPE could be giving you feedback on your HR ranges themselves, since you estimated those on a "believed to be" HRmax. I'm suggesting that you think about what you're feeling, what the conditions are, and what it all means, just in a common-sense way, rather than trying to arrive at some rigid "right" definition by precise numbers and definite physiological signs.

    To me, for my training, pace is kind of the same thing. I expect my pace to be slower on a windy day, with the same RPE. I expect my HR to be a certain amount higher for the same pace if the day is hot, or slower if cold (and by now, after 15 years, I have a sort of gut feel for how much faster/slower is normal vs. unusual for various conditions). So, if I were trying to be consistent about intensity, I'd maybe adjust my pace a little faster on a cold day wrt heart rate, and I'd assume RPE would be a little off if I was fatigued (what I did about that fatigue would vary depending on other factors).

    I feel like you're looking for some concrete rules or metrics, and I think the actuality is that heart rate range can be useful (but has some limitations we should try to understand); that RPE has some value, either for those who don't have HR data, or as a reality check on some of the HRM limitations for those of us who do; that pace also has a role (but it will be affected as an intensity guide by terrain and wind and such). We understand that any given pace will get easier as we get fitter, and RPE/heart rate response gives us some clues that that's happening; and we maybe adjust what we're doing to take that into account and continue making progress.

    Several experienced, knowledgeable people above have given what seems like really good advice about how to think about and use this information to guide your training. Dewd2, SpiritEagle, NorthCascades among others have been especially specific, looking at it from different perspectives that could be useful.

    For those of us who are not experts, who are training ourselves, I think using all of these pieces of information can be helpful, applying common sense and what knowledge we have. If there's a cut and dried formula for any of this that's the be-all, end-all guide, I hope someone will say what it is. So far, I think reality is just a little more squishy and imprecise than that.

    Just my inexpert opinion, though.
  • OldAssDude
    OldAssDude Posts: 1,436 Member
    spiriteagle99 wrote: »
    It's not a bad article, except where he says that you should run intervals at 9 or 10, which is ridiculous since his definition is that 9 can only be held for 1 minute at most and 10 for 15 seconds. The basic description is pretty good though.

    FWIW - I'm not an expert by any means. I read a lot of running forums and articles, and have read several books on running, but I'm not great at explaining what I've read because I lose the details. I just retain the gist. I've been running for 7 years and have done 4 marathons so far. (Training for #5.) I'm also 61, so have had to adjust my training and expectations to take that into account. For me, my usual runs are at 4-5, threshold runs are at 6 and speed intervals would be at 7. I would only feel 8 at the end of a 5-10k. Longer races are run at a slower pace, so generally I'm not going to be breathless at the end, just really fatigued.

    You asked about paces: running at various paces is good training, because they work different systems.

    Race pace is the pace that you would run a race, ideally. It's the pace you can hold for the duration of the event, so 5k race pace is going to be a lot faster than marathon pace. I usually figure out my approximate paces by running one race, putting the number into a race calculator like McMillan, and trying to run the goal race at the equivalent pace. (Caveat: McMillan assumes that you are well trained and experienced, so needs to be taken with a huge grain of salt if you aren't running 70 mpw.) Alternately, you start the race, decide as you go whether the pace you are running feels sustainable or not, then adjust as needed.

    Easy pace and Long Run paces build your endurance. They need to be easy so you can go farther, training your muscles, etc. to cover the miles and also to train your body to process the fuel/energy it needs to run longer. Most of your miles should be run easy.

    Threshold pace is the pace at which your body is able to clear lactate out of your blood. For those of us who don't have access to a lab, it's the pace we can hold for about an hour. This pace is again found in the calculators like McMillan's training paces, or you figure it out by practice. Most tempo runs are done at threshold pace for 20, 30, or 40 minutes. It feels moderately hard, but something you can do for the duration without needing to stop. These are meant to build your stamina, your ability to hold a pace over a distance.

    Intervals are a hard workout that train your speed by improving your ability to use oxygen. Intervals can be 200, 400, 800, 1600 m. Shorter intervals will be run faster than longer ones. Usually you do multiple repeats at that pace, with a recovery walk or jog in between.

    You're right that paces are going to vary depending on terrain, weather, your health, etc. That's where perceived exertion comes in. Running uphill you try to maintain a level of effort rather than a specific pace. Running downhill the same. On a hot day you'll run slower than on a cold day. On a trail you'll run slower than on a track. That's where having a range of paces is useful. i.e. According to McMillan, my long run pace should be between 9:17 - 10:33. Easy between 9:15 - 10:11. Tempo between 8:10 - 8:28. etc.

    Thanks.

    I do intervals quite a bit, but i do them timed, so the running them at 9/10 makes sense to me. I either run 30 or 60 second intervals with a 2 or 3 minute power walk interval between each run interval. When i do the 60 second ones i just shoot for zone 5 (above 90% of MHR), and when i do the 30 second ones i try to actaullay hit my MHR.

    I will probably never compete in a race, so as far as paces go, i just want to increase my overall pace in general, and not any type of race pace times, but thank you for the info about that.
  • OldAssDude
    OldAssDude Posts: 1,436 Member
    NorthCascades wrote: »
    This is a good conversation to have. Hopefully everybody can learn something.

    Your breathing can be a pretty good gauge of exercise intensity. Which shouldn't be a surprise because you're cardiovascular system is about distributing oxygen through your body to the working muscles, and the first step is taking air in.

    You basically get a 4 zone system if you use your breathing: active recovery, VT1, VT2, VO2max.

    VT1 is called the first ventilatory threshold. It is a marker of intensity that can be observed in a person’s breathing at a point where lactate begins to accumulate in the blood. As the intensity of the exercise begins to increase, VT1 can be identified at the point where the breathing rate begins to increase. A person who is at VT1 can no longer talk comfortably,—but can still string together a few words—while exercising,.

    Also observed by way of a person’s breathing during exercise is VT2, or the second ventilatory threshold. It is a higher marker of intensity than VT1. At VT2, lactate has quickly accumulated in the blood and the person needs to breathe heavily. At this rapid rate of breathing, the exerciser can no longer speak. The exercise duration will necessarily decrease due to the intensity level. VT2 can also be called the anaerobic threshold or lactate threshold.

    https://www.acefitness.org/fitness-certifications/resource-center/exam-preparation-blog/3139/what-is-the-difference-between-vt1-vt2-and-vo2-max

    This is good information too, and i have spent a lot of time in all those zone... :)

    Thank you,
  • OldAssDude
    OldAssDude Posts: 1,436 Member
    dewd2 wrote: »
    Until you can run 10 miles without stopping then don't worry about anything but your easy pace. Easy pace is being able to sing the entire time. I'm not kidding. Sing. :D

    You're not advancing as quickly as you think you should because you're being too stubborn to slow down. Going easy is not being a sissy. Going easy is the smart way to get faster.

    I'm going to do something on Thursday that would probably drive you mad :D I'm running a 10k 'race' but I'm going to purposely run easy. I'll be somewhere in the middle of the pack and I won't even bother to see where I finished. I have another race on Saturday that I plan to actually race. The only way I can be successful is to run easy on Thursday (and not care at all about how fast I am not running).

    I have not run 5 miles non stop since may, but after reading this i wanted to see if i could do 5 miles still. I tried to keep it in the high end of zone 2 and the low end of zone 3. I felt like i could hold a conversation, but i don't think i could sing the whole time. I did the whole 5 miles, and my legs felt like they got a good workout, but my heart and lungs felt like it was too easy. I feel like i could have done the 5 miles at a higher intensity, and got a good cardio along with the leg workout.

    Would it hurt to bump up the intensity just a little, or should i keep it the same and go for longer distance?

    thanks,
  • OldAssDude
    OldAssDude Posts: 1,436 Member
    edited November 2018
    jjpptt2 wrote: »
    OldAssDude wrote: »
    I am trying to learn about using perceived exertion and using pace to gauge intensity. I still intend to check my HR once in a while to see what it is at different levels of my perception, but i am finding information on perceived exertion and pace is somewhat confusing.

    some say you should be able to hold a full conversation, and others say you should be able to hold a broken conversation, and others say you should be able to speak a couple words at a time.

    And regarding pace i see things like "race pace", threshold pace", "tempo pace", etc...

    And just thinking about it, how can you go by pace if you are running outside with hills and wind and stuff?

    What does all this stuff mean?

    Then there is some chart that has a bunch of numbers for several different levels of exertion, and other charts that have how you should feel in each heart rate zone (some of which conflict with others).

    This is getting pretty frustrating and confusing compared to just looking at what zone i'm in.

    could some of you experts maybe explain these things in a simple way?

    I understand HR stuff because that is what i learned in the army back in the 1980's when i went through a fitness course, but all this other stuff seems a lot more complicated.

    I'm not really concerned about pace, because i run at a snails pace. In fact, a snail would probably beat me in a race... :)

    Mainly i want information about how i should be perceiving my workouts.

    thanks in advance.

    There's a perceived effort you can comfortably sustain for the duration of your run, and there is a perceived effort you can't sustain comfortably. One is good, one is not.

    You repeatedly mention in your posts that you're just interested in overall, general fitness. But you rarely talk about the frequency with which you run (unless I've missed those posts). Frequency is important, too. More so than HR or pace or most other things.

    If you want to improve... Run slower more often.

    I do about 30 miles a week (including power walking). Not sure if that's a lot or not, but i do at least 1 activity per day (7 days a week), even if it's just a recovery walk.
  • OldAssDude
    OldAssDude Posts: 1,436 Member
    AnvilHead wrote: »
    The relation between RPE and pace is also going to be completely subjective and highly varied from person to person. For example, there are a lot of people who can comfortably hold a 7:00 pace for miles and miles - I couldn’t even hold that pace for one mile, and it wouldn’t be anywhere near comfortable. It would be an RPE 10 for me, where it would probably be an RPE of 3-5 for some people.

    That is a good point. A 10:00 mile is an RPE of 10 for me. :)
  • OldAssDude
    OldAssDude Posts: 1,436 Member
    Charlene____ wrote: »
    What is your weekly volume running right now?

    I do about 30 miles per week. That includes power walking.
  • OldAssDude
    OldAssDude Posts: 1,436 Member
    dewd2 wrote: »
    @OldAssDude - You want to see real results? Try this: https://www.halhigdon.com/training-programs/10k-training/novice-10k/

    Follow the program and ONLY the program. Don't ignore rest days. Don't ignore the advice to run slowly. Hal Higdon is a very famous coach and knows a few things about running. I will be following his Advanced 2 marathon program next summer as I chase a serious PR.

    Do this program for 8 weeks then go back and run a 5K as fast as you can. Assuming you didn't cheat (didn't do more than you should) you will almost certainly be faster.

    @dewd2 ,

    Can i still do at least a walk on rest days?

    I am on a good Garmin streak this year. I only missed 2 days of at least 1 activity per day since 1/1/2018. And that's 7 days a week.

    Taking 2 complete rest days per week is really not good option in my world.
  • NorthCascades
    NorthCascades Posts: 10,968 Member
    OldAssDude wrote: »
    Charlene____ wrote: »
    What is your weekly volume running right now?

    I do about 30 miles per week. That includes power walking.

    Holy crap! I don't know how old you are, but I can't run 30 miles per week at 40 years old.
  • OldAssDude
    OldAssDude Posts: 1,436 Member
    NorthCascades wrote: »
    OldAssDude wrote: »
    Charlene____ wrote: »
    What is your weekly volume running right now?

    I do about 30 miles per week. That includes power walking.

    Holy crap! I don't know how old you are, but I can't run 30 miles per week at 40 years old.

    I'm 61, and that 30 miles includes power walking (which i do for recovery).
  • dewd2
    dewd2 Posts: 2,445 Member
    OldAssDude wrote: »
    dewd2 wrote: »
    Until you can run 10 miles without stopping then don't worry about anything but your easy pace. Easy pace is being able to sing the entire time. I'm not kidding. Sing. :D

    You're not advancing as quickly as you think you should because you're being too stubborn to slow down. Going easy is not being a sissy. Going easy is the smart way to get faster.

    I'm going to do something on Thursday that would probably drive you mad :D I'm running a 10k 'race' but I'm going to purposely run easy. I'll be somewhere in the middle of the pack and I won't even bother to see where I finished. I have another race on Saturday that I plan to actually race. The only way I can be successful is to run easy on Thursday (and not care at all about how fast I am not running).

    I have not run 5 miles non stop since may, but after reading this i wanted to see if i could do 5 miles still. I tried to keep it in the high end of zone 2 and the low end of zone 3. I felt like i could hold a conversation, but i don't think i could sing the whole time. I did the whole 5 miles, and my legs felt like they got a good workout, but my heart and lungs felt like it was too easy. I feel like i could have done the 5 miles at a higher intensity, and got a good cardio along with the leg workout.

    Would it hurt to bump up the intensity just a little, or should i keep it the same and go for longer distance?

    thanks,

    Just because you can doesn't mean you should. I can run much faster than my normal training runs but I rarely do. When I'm training I run each run at a planned pace (or as close as I can on that day). I am not currently training for anything.

    I'm not sure if you can see my old activities on Garmin but if you can, take a look at my runs from 2015. This was the year I 'started over' and I didn't do a single speed workout the entire year (it was hard enough just getting past 10 miles).

    This week my plans include doing next to nothing today, running 3-5 very easy miles tomorrow, doing some sort of run on Wednesday (I haven't decided what but it won't be hard), running a very easy 10K on Thursday, a couple easy miles on Friday, and then trying to run like a rabbit on Saturday and win my age group. All of my runs before Saturday will be in the mid to high 8 min pace. My pace on Saturday will be below 7 (I hope ;) ). On Sunday I will probably run 7-10 miles assuming I am in decent shape after my race. If my legs need a break I will take it.
  • dewd2
    dewd2 Posts: 2,445 Member
    OldAssDude wrote: »
    dewd2 wrote: »
    @OldAssDude - You want to see real results? Try this: https://www.halhigdon.com/training-programs/10k-training/novice-10k/

    Follow the program and ONLY the program. Don't ignore rest days. Don't ignore the advice to run slowly. Hal Higdon is a very famous coach and knows a few things about running. I will be following his Advanced 2 marathon program next summer as I chase a serious PR.

    Do this program for 8 weeks then go back and run a 5K as fast as you can. Assuming you didn't cheat (didn't do more than you should) you will almost certainly be faster.

    @dewd2 ,

    Can i still do at least a walk on rest days?

    I am on a good Garmin streak this year. I only missed 2 days of at least 1 activity per day since 1/1/2018. And that's 7 days a week.

    Taking 2 complete rest days per week is really not good option in my world.

    Yes, walking (not power walking) is fine assuming your legs feel good and you are not injured.

    I know a few streakers and I refuse to join them. I also don't do distance challenges. I make sure I take a day off every week and I don't want to have any pressure to not do that.
  • spiriteagle99
    spiriteagle99 Posts: 3,749 Member
    I walk every day with our dog for 2-3+ miles. I find it helps my running because it loosens up stiff muscles. If you enjoy it and aren't really sore after, keep doing it.

    If you want to do some runs faster, you can, just do most of your runs slow and easy. A good way to incorporate some faster running is to do a fartlek (speedplay) run where you warm up with a mile or more of easy running, then run hard to a mailbox or telephone pole or street corner, then jog for a bit until you catch your breath then run hard again. It is fun and lets your legs and lungs experience some faster turnover without pushing so hard you get injured. Or do an occasional tempo run, where you warm up for 2 miles, then do 10 minutes at a moderately hard pace. You should be able to say a few words, but probably won't be able to chat comfortably. Then do another mile or more easy for cool down. When you can do that, try doing the moderately hard pace for 2 miles. Or do one mile, jog for 1/4 mile, then do another mile. Just be sure to warm up first and then cool down. That's one of the reasons beginners are not encouraged to do speedwork: if you're only running 3 miles, then there isn't time for a decent warmup. Without that warmup, the risk of injury increases. If you're running 5 miles, you can warm up for 2, run harder for 2, then cool down at the end with another. It is much safer.
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