OK... Teach Me About "Perceived Exertion" And Pace
Replies
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spiriteagle99 wrote: »I walk every day with our dog for 2-3+ miles. I find it helps my running because it loosens up stiff muscles. If you enjoy it and aren't really sore after, keep doing it.
If you want to do some runs faster, you can, just do most of your runs slow and easy. A good way to incorporate some faster running is to do a fartlek (speedplay) run where you warm up with a mile or more of easy running, then run hard to a mailbox or telephone pole or street corner, then jog for a bit until you catch your breath then run hard again. It is fun and lets your legs and lungs experience some faster turnover without pushing so hard you get injured. Or do an occasional tempo run, where you warm up for 2 miles, then do 10 minutes at a moderately hard pace. You should be able to say a few words, but probably won't be able to chat comfortably. Then do another mile or more easy for cool down. When you can do that, try doing the moderately hard pace for 2 miles. Or do one mile, jog for 1/4 mile, then do another mile. Just be sure to warm up first and then cool down. That's one of the reasons beginners are not encouraged to do speedwork: if you're only running 3 miles, then there isn't time for a decent warmup. Without that warmup, the risk of injury increases. If you're running 5 miles, you can warm up for 2, run harder for 2, then cool down at the end with another. It is much safer.
Some good advice.
I do mix it up a lot, and do a lot of power walk run intervals in zone 3/4/5.
thanks,0 -
OldAssDude wrote: »spiriteagle99 wrote: »I walk every day with our dog for 2-3+ miles. I find it helps my running because it loosens up stiff muscles. If you enjoy it and aren't really sore after, keep doing it.
If you want to do some runs faster, you can, just do most of your runs slow and easy. A good way to incorporate some faster running is to do a fartlek (speedplay) run where you warm up with a mile or more of easy running, then run hard to a mailbox or telephone pole or street corner, then jog for a bit until you catch your breath then run hard again. It is fun and lets your legs and lungs experience some faster turnover without pushing so hard you get injured. Or do an occasional tempo run, where you warm up for 2 miles, then do 10 minutes at a moderately hard pace. You should be able to say a few words, but probably won't be able to chat comfortably. Then do another mile or more easy for cool down. When you can do that, try doing the moderately hard pace for 2 miles. Or do one mile, jog for 1/4 mile, then do another mile. Just be sure to warm up first and then cool down. That's one of the reasons beginners are not encouraged to do speedwork: if you're only running 3 miles, then there isn't time for a decent warmup. Without that warmup, the risk of injury increases. If you're running 5 miles, you can warm up for 2, run harder for 2, then cool down at the end with another. It is much safer.
Some good advice.
I do mix it up a lot, and do a lot of power walk run intervals in zone 3/4/5.
thanks,
Is it good advice because it lines up with what you want to do/hear? Or... ?11 -
OldAssDude wrote: »@OldAssDude - You want to see real results? Try this: https://www.halhigdon.com/training-programs/10k-training/novice-10k/
Follow the program and ONLY the program. Don't ignore rest days. Don't ignore the advice to run slowly. Hal Higdon is a very famous coach and knows a few things about running. I will be following his Advanced 2 marathon program next summer as I chase a serious PR.
Do this program for 8 weeks then go back and run a 5K as fast as you can. Assuming you didn't cheat (didn't do more than you should) you will almost certainly be faster.
@dewd2 ,
Can i still do at least a walk on rest days?
I am on a good Garmin streak this year. I only missed 2 days of at least 1 activity per day since 1/1/2018. And that's 7 days a week.
Taking 2 complete rest days per week is really not good option in my world.
Yes, walking (not power walking) is fine assuming your legs feel good and you are not injured.
I know a few streakers and I refuse to join them. I also don't do distance challenges. I make sure I take a day off every week and I don't want to have any pressure to not do that.
I agree. I know people who streak, and good for them, but I need to listen to my legs and to my body, and actually take a recovery/rest day. My typical workday still involves a 2-mile walk, even without intentional exercise, so I can't be fussed to make sure I'm hitting X thing beyond that.
My therapist tells me I'm the most active person she knows -- including her other clients -- and that's really not a good sign when it's coming from an eating disorder therapist. I need to learn to listen to my body, not shove it down a path of obsession.3 -
OldAssDude wrote: »@OldAssDude - You want to see real results? Try this: https://www.halhigdon.com/training-programs/10k-training/novice-10k/
Follow the program and ONLY the program. Don't ignore rest days. Don't ignore the advice to run slowly. Hal Higdon is a very famous coach and knows a few things about running. I will be following his Advanced 2 marathon program next summer as I chase a serious PR.
Do this program for 8 weeks then go back and run a 5K as fast as you can. Assuming you didn't cheat (didn't do more than you should) you will almost certainly be faster.
@dewd2 ,
Can i still do at least a walk on rest days?
I am on a good Garmin streak this year. I only missed 2 days of at least 1 activity per day since 1/1/2018. And that's 7 days a week.
Taking 2 complete rest days per week is really not good option in my world.
Yes, walking (not power walking) is fine assuming your legs feel good and you are not injured.
I know a few streakers and I refuse to join them. I also don't do distance challenges. I make sure I take a day off every week and I don't want to have any pressure to not do that.
@dewd2 . I think i'm going to take the challenge. Here is my modified schedule...
I replaced the Cross days with power walks, and the rest days with walks. 2 rest days a week is 2 days more than i am used to, but i will try my best to do casual walks on those days. Since today is Monday and a rest day, i will just do a walk today (probably 3.8 or 5.5 miles). Since we are connected on Garmin you can track my activites in Garmin Connect if you like, but just know that i record all my walking/power walking/running activities as runs. You can look at my cadence and pace to tell what i am actually doing though.
I do think there is something to this RPE stuff, but i do not intend to discount heart rate training either. I took the information from the link that @AnvilH posted, dug into my garmin workouts, and got some numbers that i feel are pretty accurate for my MHR (170) and LTHR (145). I set my fenix 5x zones to use %LTHR and it changed the zones percentages to numbers other than the standard 50/60/70/80/90/100 numbers as shown below (using the top one)...
I then added the RPE valuse for each zone, and based on how i feel in those zones, they seem to be a good fit.
Once i complete this, i will do a 5k run and compare it to my fastest 5k time in garmin connect.
Also, what is a streaker?
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OldAssDude wrote: »spiriteagle99 wrote: »I walk every day with our dog for 2-3+ miles. I find it helps my running because it loosens up stiff muscles. If you enjoy it and aren't really sore after, keep doing it.
If you want to do some runs faster, you can, just do most of your runs slow and easy. A good way to incorporate some faster running is to do a fartlek (speedplay) run where you warm up with a mile or more of easy running, then run hard to a mailbox or telephone pole or street corner, then jog for a bit until you catch your breath then run hard again. It is fun and lets your legs and lungs experience some faster turnover without pushing so hard you get injured. Or do an occasional tempo run, where you warm up for 2 miles, then do 10 minutes at a moderately hard pace. You should be able to say a few words, but probably won't be able to chat comfortably. Then do another mile or more easy for cool down. When you can do that, try doing the moderately hard pace for 2 miles. Or do one mile, jog for 1/4 mile, then do another mile. Just be sure to warm up first and then cool down. That's one of the reasons beginners are not encouraged to do speedwork: if you're only running 3 miles, then there isn't time for a decent warmup. Without that warmup, the risk of injury increases. If you're running 5 miles, you can warm up for 2, run harder for 2, then cool down at the end with another. It is much safer.
Some good advice.
I do mix it up a lot, and do a lot of power walk run intervals in zone 3/4/5.
thanks,
Is it good advice because it lines up with what you want to do/hear? Or... ?
It's good advice because mixing it up and making your heart work in all the different ranges is good for your heart. Not only to get to the different intensities, but to recover from them as well.
Not sure what you think i meant, but i can assure you that i do mix it up a lot. But i also think i need to focus more on longer lower intensity runs.0 -
I consider myself a casual runner so this level of detail in planning isn’t something I’m familiar with - any of you guys who compete regularly and been at it for years get into this? I generally play it by feel and focus on executing set distances without walk breaks and that’s about as complex as I get. I’ve been running three and four miles twice a week and have a 10k coming up so upped my runs to three times a week and added a mile each week. Cadence matching music has been the only new thing I’ve tried and I love it.0
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OldAssDude wrote: »OldAssDude wrote: »spiriteagle99 wrote: »I walk every day with our dog for 2-3+ miles. I find it helps my running because it loosens up stiff muscles. If you enjoy it and aren't really sore after, keep doing it.
If you want to do some runs faster, you can, just do most of your runs slow and easy. A good way to incorporate some faster running is to do a fartlek (speedplay) run where you warm up with a mile or more of easy running, then run hard to a mailbox or telephone pole or street corner, then jog for a bit until you catch your breath then run hard again. It is fun and lets your legs and lungs experience some faster turnover without pushing so hard you get injured. Or do an occasional tempo run, where you warm up for 2 miles, then do 10 minutes at a moderately hard pace. You should be able to say a few words, but probably won't be able to chat comfortably. Then do another mile or more easy for cool down. When you can do that, try doing the moderately hard pace for 2 miles. Or do one mile, jog for 1/4 mile, then do another mile. Just be sure to warm up first and then cool down. That's one of the reasons beginners are not encouraged to do speedwork: if you're only running 3 miles, then there isn't time for a decent warmup. Without that warmup, the risk of injury increases. If you're running 5 miles, you can warm up for 2, run harder for 2, then cool down at the end with another. It is much safer.
Some good advice.
I do mix it up a lot, and do a lot of power walk run intervals in zone 3/4/5.
thanks,
Is it good advice because it lines up with what you want to do/hear? Or... ?
It's good advice because mixing it up and making your heart work in all the different ranges is good for your heart. Not only to get to the different intensities, but to recover from them as well.
Not sure what you think i meant, but i can assure you that i do mix it up a lot. But i also think i need to focus more on longer lower intensity runs.
So in that context, it's actually bad advice. That's what I meant, and that's why I asked about priorities.5 -
Until you can run 10 miles without stopping then don't worry about anything but your easy pace. Easy pace is being able to sing the entire time. I'm not kidding. Sing.
You're not advancing as quickly as you think you should because you're being too stubborn to slow down. Going easy is not being a sissy. Going easy is the smart way to get faster.
I'm going to do something on Thursday that would probably drive you mad I'm running a 10k 'race' but I'm going to purposely run easy. I'll be somewhere in the middle of the pack and I won't even bother to see where I finished. I have another race on Saturday that I plan to actually race. The only way I can be successful is to run easy on Thursday (and not care at all about how fast I am not running).
This. Also, it's mind blowing but once you learn to run easy you'll get more enjoyment out of running overall. Bread and butter runs won't feel like torture and speedwork will actually become a welcome and exhilarating change of pace.2 -
OldAssDude wrote: »spiriteagle99 wrote: »It's not a bad article, except where he says that you should run intervals at 9 or 10, which is ridiculous since his definition is that 9 can only be held for 1 minute at most and 10 for 15 seconds. The basic description is pretty good though.
FWIW - I'm not an expert by any means. I read a lot of running forums and articles, and have read several books on running, but I'm not great at explaining what I've read because I lose the details. I just retain the gist. I've been running for 7 years and have done 4 marathons so far. (Training for #5.) I'm also 61, so have had to adjust my training and expectations to take that into account. For me, my usual runs are at 4-5, threshold runs are at 6 and speed intervals would be at 7. I would only feel 8 at the end of a 5-10k. Longer races are run at a slower pace, so generally I'm not going to be breathless at the end, just really fatigued.
You asked about paces: running at various paces is good training, because they work different systems.
Race pace is the pace that you would run a race, ideally. It's the pace you can hold for the duration of the event, so 5k race pace is going to be a lot faster than marathon pace. I usually figure out my approximate paces by running one race, putting the number into a race calculator like McMillan, and trying to run the goal race at the equivalent pace. (Caveat: McMillan assumes that you are well trained and experienced, so needs to be taken with a huge grain of salt if you aren't running 70 mpw.) Alternately, you start the race, decide as you go whether the pace you are running feels sustainable or not, then adjust as needed.
Easy pace and Long Run paces build your endurance. They need to be easy so you can go farther, training your muscles, etc. to cover the miles and also to train your body to process the fuel/energy it needs to run longer. Most of your miles should be run easy.
Threshold pace is the pace at which your body is able to clear lactate out of your blood. For those of us who don't have access to a lab, it's the pace we can hold for about an hour. This pace is again found in the calculators like McMillan's training paces, or you figure it out by practice. Most tempo runs are done at threshold pace for 20, 30, or 40 minutes. It feels moderately hard, but something you can do for the duration without needing to stop. These are meant to build your stamina, your ability to hold a pace over a distance.
Intervals are a hard workout that train your speed by improving your ability to use oxygen. Intervals can be 200, 400, 800, 1600 m. Shorter intervals will be run faster than longer ones. Usually you do multiple repeats at that pace, with a recovery walk or jog in between.
You're right that paces are going to vary depending on terrain, weather, your health, etc. That's where perceived exertion comes in. Running uphill you try to maintain a level of effort rather than a specific pace. Running downhill the same. On a hot day you'll run slower than on a cold day. On a trail you'll run slower than on a track. That's where having a range of paces is useful. i.e. According to McMillan, my long run pace should be between 9:17 - 10:33. Easy between 9:15 - 10:11. Tempo between 8:10 - 8:28. etc.
Thanks.
I do intervals quite a bit, but i do them timed, so the running them at 9/10 makes sense to me. I either run 30 or 60 second intervals with a 2 or 3 minute power walk interval between each run interval. When i do the 60 second ones i just shoot for zone 5 (above 90% of MHR), and when i do the 30 second ones i try to actaullay hit my MHR.
I will probably never compete in a race, so as far as paces go, i just want to increase my overall pace in general, and not any type of race pace times, but thank you for the info about that.
Having a "race pace" is potentially useful whether you race or not, just like it's useful to have an "easy pace" and a "long distance pace". Knowing/using it can be part of structuring, monitoring, adjusting your workouts/training.0 -
OldAssDude wrote: »OldAssDude wrote: »@OldAssDude - You want to see real results? Try this: https://www.halhigdon.com/training-programs/10k-training/novice-10k/
Follow the program and ONLY the program. Don't ignore rest days. Don't ignore the advice to run slowly. Hal Higdon is a very famous coach and knows a few things about running. I will be following his Advanced 2 marathon program next summer as I chase a serious PR.
Do this program for 8 weeks then go back and run a 5K as fast as you can. Assuming you didn't cheat (didn't do more than you should) you will almost certainly be faster.
@dewd2 ,
Can i still do at least a walk on rest days?
I am on a good Garmin streak this year. I only missed 2 days of at least 1 activity per day since 1/1/2018. And that's 7 days a week.
Taking 2 complete rest days per week is really not good option in my world.
Yes, walking (not power walking) is fine assuming your legs feel good and you are not injured.
I know a few streakers and I refuse to join them. I also don't do distance challenges. I make sure I take a day off every week and I don't want to have any pressure to not do that.
@dewd2 . I think i'm going to take the challenge. Here is my modified schedule...
I replaced the Cross days with power walks, and the rest days with walks. 2 rest days a week is 2 days more than i am used to, but i will try my best to do casual walks on those days. Since today is Monday and a rest day, i will just do a walk today (probably 3.8 or 5.5 miles). Since we are connected on Garmin you can track my activites in Garmin Connect if you like, but just know that i record all my walking/power walking/running activities as runs. You can look at my cadence and pace to tell what i am actually doing though.
I do think there is something to this RPE stuff, but i do not intend to discount heart rate training either. I took the information from the link that @AnvilH posted, dug into my garmin workouts, and got some numbers that i feel are pretty accurate for my MHR (170) and LTHR (145). I set my fenix 5x zones to use %LTHR and it changed the zones percentages to numbers other than the standard 50/60/70/80/90/100 numbers as shown below (using the top one)...
I then added the RPE valuse for each zone, and based on how i feel in those zones, they seem to be a good fit.
Once i complete this, i will do a 5k run and compare it to my fastest 5k time in garmin connect.
Also, what is a streaker?
That should work @OldAssDude.
A 'streaker' is someone who runs at least a mile every day and then brags about it on Facebook (okay, maybe not the 2nd part for everyone ). 1 -
Until you can run 10 miles without stopping then don't worry about anything but your easy pace. Easy pace is being able to sing the entire time. I'm not kidding. Sing.
You're not advancing as quickly as you think you should because you're being too stubborn to slow down. Going easy is not being a sissy. Going easy is the smart way to get faster.
I'm going to do something on Thursday that would probably drive you mad I'm running a 10k 'race' but I'm going to purposely run easy. I'll be somewhere in the middle of the pack and I won't even bother to see where I finished. I have another race on Saturday that I plan to actually race. The only way I can be successful is to run easy on Thursday (and not care at all about how fast I am not running).
This. Also, it's mind blowing but once you learn to run easy you'll get more enjoyment out of running overall. Bread and butter runs won't feel like torture and speedwork will actually become a welcome and exhilarating change of pace.
It's also really cool how runs can become social events. When you're not in a hurry all the time you can slow down and run with others. Many friendships can be made on the Sunday long run.
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Until you can run 10 miles without stopping then don't worry about anything but your easy pace. Easy pace is being able to sing the entire time. I'm not kidding. Sing.
You're not advancing as quickly as you think you should because you're being too stubborn to slow down. Going easy is not being a sissy. Going easy is the smart way to get faster.
I'm going to do something on Thursday that would probably drive you mad I'm running a 10k 'race' but I'm going to purposely run easy. I'll be somewhere in the middle of the pack and I won't even bother to see where I finished. I have another race on Saturday that I plan to actually race. The only way I can be successful is to run easy on Thursday (and not care at all about how fast I am not running).
This. Also, it's mind blowing but once you learn to run easy you'll get more enjoyment out of running overall. Bread and butter runs won't feel like torture and speedwork will actually become a welcome and exhilarating change of pace.
I have only just started adding in a bit of proper speed work... I do love it, but what I love more is that I can run 10 miles Just for the hell of it, and then have a shower and food and go about my business as if I've just got out of bed because I did it at a properly 'easy' pace. Only took 4 years to lean how to do that :laugh:4 -
OldAssDude wrote: »OldAssDude wrote: »@OldAssDude - You want to see real results? Try this: https://www.halhigdon.com/training-programs/10k-training/novice-10k/
Follow the program and ONLY the program. Don't ignore rest days. Don't ignore the advice to run slowly. Hal Higdon is a very famous coach and knows a few things about running. I will be following his Advanced 2 marathon program next summer as I chase a serious PR.
Do this program for 8 weeks then go back and run a 5K as fast as you can. Assuming you didn't cheat (didn't do more than you should) you will almost certainly be faster.
@dewd2 ,
Can i still do at least a walk on rest days?
I am on a good Garmin streak this year. I only missed 2 days of at least 1 activity per day since 1/1/2018. And that's 7 days a week.
Taking 2 complete rest days per week is really not good option in my world.
Yes, walking (not power walking) is fine assuming your legs feel good and you are not injured.
I know a few streakers and I refuse to join them. I also don't do distance challenges. I make sure I take a day off every week and I don't want to have any pressure to not do that.
@dewd2 . I think i'm going to take the challenge. Here is my modified schedule...
I replaced the Cross days with power walks, and the rest days with walks. 2 rest days a week is 2 days more than i am used to, but i will try my best to do casual walks on those days. Since today is Monday and a rest day, i will just do a walk today (probably 3.8 or 5.5 miles). Since we are connected on Garmin you can track my activites in Garmin Connect if you like, but just know that i record all my walking/power walking/running activities as runs. You can look at my cadence and pace to tell what i am actually doing though.
I do think there is something to this RPE stuff, but i do not intend to discount heart rate training either. I took the information from the link that @AnvilH posted, dug into my garmin workouts, and got some numbers that i feel are pretty accurate for my MHR (170) and LTHR (145). I set my fenix 5x zones to use %LTHR and it changed the zones percentages to numbers other than the standard 50/60/70/80/90/100 numbers as shown below (using the top one)...
I then added the RPE valuse for each zone, and based on how i feel in those zones, they seem to be a good fit.
Once i complete this, i will do a 5k run and compare it to my fastest 5k time in garmin connect.
Also, what is a streaker?
That should work @OldAssDude.
A 'streaker' is someone who runs at least a mile every day and then brags about it on Facebook (okay, maybe not the 2nd part for everyone ).
Hahaha.
Well, i certainly can't brag to other runners because i pale in comparison, but i do try to get other people at work who don't exercise to do workouts at lunch with me. Some of them may think i'm bragging though, but i'm just trying to get other office geeks to start exercising before they get old and out of shape like me. 1 -
What exactly are your priorities, OP?
I've seen you mention rate of improvement... general fitness... HR zones... garmin streaks... etc.
I'm just trying to learn things that are new to me, and maybe learn better ways of improving my fitness.
You say that i did not mention any of my actual workouts. Feel free to look at my Garmin connect activities. my name is OldAssDude, and all my stuff is public.
I am beginning to get the feeling that you're just trying to pick on me for some reason.
If it's not your intent, please let me know what your intent is, and i apologize if it's not.0 -
OldAssDude wrote: »What exactly are your priorities, OP?
I've seen you mention rate of improvement... general fitness... HR zones... garmin streaks... etc.
I'm just trying to learn things that are new to me, and maybe learn better ways of improving my fitness.
You say that i did not mention any of my actual workouts. Feel free to look at my Garmin connect activities. my name is OldAssDude, and all my stuff is public.
I am beginning to get the feeling that you're just trying to pick on me for some reason.
If it's not your intent, please let me know what your intent is, and i apologize if it's not.
I'm not at all... and I apologize if it's coming off that way. I'm trying to understand where you're coming from so I can best respond to your posts.
If your goal is to simply improve, then you're way overthinking it.
But if your goal is to learn, then all of the conversations which are coming at things from 10 different direction can be helpful, as long as your able to absorb everything and take the valuable pieces while discarding the unhelpful stuff.
As someone who tends to lose the forest for the trees (or whatever that expression is)... sometimes differentiating goals from priorities can be helpful. One can have many many goals, but it's hard to have many many priorities.
And I go back to something I said in one of your other threads...
For most people "better" isn't something to worry about. Better is hairs that don't need to be split. There is beneficial or not beneficial and there is preferred and non-preferred. Your "better" is where preferred and beneficial overlap.6 -
OldAssDude wrote: »What exactly are your priorities, OP?
I've seen you mention rate of improvement... general fitness... HR zones... garmin streaks... etc.
I'm just trying to learn things that are new to me, and maybe learn better ways of improving my fitness.
You say that i did not mention any of my actual workouts. Feel free to look at my Garmin connect activities. my name is OldAssDude, and all my stuff is public.
I am beginning to get the feeling that you're just trying to pick on me for some reason.
If it's not your intent, please let me know what your intent is, and i apologize if it's not.
I'm not at all... and I apologize if it's coming off that way. I'm trying to understand where you're coming from so I can best respond to your posts.
Thank you and i am sorry i took you the wrong way.
If your goal is to simply improve, then you're way overthinking it.
But if your goal is to learn, then all of the conversations which are coming at things from 10 different direction can be helpful, as long as your able to absorb everything and take the valuable pieces while discarding the unhelpful stuff.
I have learned some new things, and i think the most helpful and important being that i need to work on longer lower intensity runs. I intend to try the porgram that @dewd2 mentioned, because in order to see where someone else is coming from, one has to experience it first hand. I think he is a very experienced runner, and i'm sure that if i do the plan the way it's laid out, i'm sure i'm going to have a moment of... "ahhh... now i see what he means".
As someone who tends to lose the forest for the trees (or whatever that expression is)... sometimes differentiating goals from priorities can be helpful. One can have many many goals, but it's hard to have many many priorities.
And I go back to something I said in one of your other threads...
For most people "better" isn't something to worry about. Better is hairs that don't need to be split. There is beneficial or not beneficial and there is preferred and non-preferred. Your "better" is where preferred and beneficial overlap.
I think my better now is to be able to run 10k and improve my 5k pace, and following this plan would be beneficial to accomplish that.
So i prefer it...
Thank you.0 -
I am following this because it has some really interesting ideas here. I am an "oldassdudette" who likes to run and my goals have always been to improve my pace. Been jogging/running for 45 yrs off and on and have never ever been fast. Due to various injuries I am limited to about 7 miles max at one time. Last year my goal was to run a 5K in under a 10 min.mile pace. done. This year I wanted to do the same for a 10k. done. Of course that is my sprint pace and my typical runs vary by up to 2 min per mile day to day for who knows what reason. As an older gal - 60 - , I am not supposed to get my heart rate over 150-160 but honestly my avg is 164 pretty much regardless of the "effort". I gave up worrying about that a few years back. I can't run sprints anymore. But I do get a huge lift in pace if I just give it an effort for 20 steps, then back off for about 30 or 40 and do it again. Typically that will cut a minute off my pace for a given mile.
Best of luck with your program and a lot of REALLY great information here!3 -
Just curious why you want to limit your HR @SummerSkier. Do you have a medical condition? Just being older is NOT a reason to slow down.3
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Just curious why you want to limit your HR @SummerSkier. Do you have a medical condition? Just being older is NOT a reason to slow down.
Endorsed, from the perspective of age 63.
HRmax is not a limit you shouldn't exceed (if healthy), it's the limit you can't exceed, try as you might.
Age-based estimating formulas are inaccurate for many; the common one's off by 20-some bpm for me. If you average 164, your HRmax is not 160.3 -
Just curious why you want to limit your HR @SummerSkier. Do you have a medical condition? Just being older is NOT a reason to slow down.
Just formulas based on age. I mostly ignore them. 🏃♀️. Got up to about 180 the other day during a sprint. Calculators generally say I should be in the 140s Max. You know 200 minus age thing.1 -
I took the highest (legitimate) heart rate from the last year of my garmin workouts and set that as my MHR. It was 170 bpm, and i am 61 years old.1
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SummerSkier wrote: »Just curious why you want to limit your HR @SummerSkier. Do you have a medical condition? Just being older is NOT a reason to slow down.
Just formulas based on age. I mostly ignore them. 🏃♀️. Got up to about 180 the other day during a sprint. Calculators generally say I should be in the 140s Max. You know 200 minus age thing.
If you saw 180 and felt OK (sense of exertion, of course - but no sense of panic, faintness, extra-racing heart, etc.), then your HRmax is at least 180. OP's rule of adding 5 to the highest you've ever seen (while feeling non-ill) is better than 220-age, which is one of the more inaccurate age-based formulas. Age isn't a great determinant of HRmax; the individual variation is very significant.
Most people's HRmax declines with age, but decline can be slower in people who stay routinely active. The basic HRmax (ignoring age) is mostly genetic, as I understand.
Mine's around 180, at age 63. It was tested a few years back (coach, not med stress test - the latter they wouldn't let me go hard enough
). It may've drifted down a little since testing, but since the physiological RPE effects of higher heart rates still seem about the same, I don't think it's changed much, and I've seen 180 while doing Tabata intervals at some point more recently. 1 -
Also, I have found that the BIGGEST factor in my pace over the past 2-3 years has nothing to do with training, eating, or weight. It seems that I am most sensitive to the dew point (humidity and temp combo). All summer with dew points between 70 and 74 I struggle to break an 11 min/mile pace. the first day the dew point is in the 50's all of a sudden I turn into a gazelle and run at least a minute/mile faster? I think that is also age related to some extent. And the "level of exertion" or avg HR stays about the same as during the slower runs. Sometimes I swear that if Map My Run wasn't telling me my pace per mile I would have no clue if I was running at a 12 minute pace or an 8:30 min one
3 -
OldAssDude wrote: »I took the highest (legitimate) heart rate from the last year of my garmin workouts and set that as my MHR. It was 170 bpm, and i am 61 years old.
If that was near the end of a longer tough workout though, your system likely couldn't get your HR up to near max as it could if fresh.
This is why HRmax test protocols are fast ramping, usually hit within 10-15 min.
And using say the maxHR seen at the end of a race of 30-60 min just isn't a good estimate either, I've seen people use that method. That's probably closer to LT line.
Probably safe to add 5-15 unless you knew the workout was like a HRmax test and you saw it pretty soon.1 -
OldAssDude wrote: »I took the highest (legitimate) heart rate from the last year of my garmin workouts and set that as my MHR. It was 170 bpm, and i am 61 years old.
If that was near the end of a longer tough workout though, your system likely couldn't get your HR up to near max as it could if fresh.
This is why HRmax test protocols are fast ramping, usually hit within 10-15 min.
And using say the maxHR seen at the end of a race of 30-60 min just isn't a good estimate either, I've seen people use that method. That's probably closer to LT line.
Probably safe to add 5-15 unless you knew the workout was like a HRmax test and you saw it pretty soon.
It was during intervals.0 -
SummerSkier wrote: »Also, I have found that the BIGGEST factor in my pace over the past 2-3 years has nothing to do with training, eating, or weight. It seems that I am most sensitive to the dew point (humidity and temp combo). All summer with dew points between 70 and 74 I struggle to break an 11 min/mile pace. the first day the dew point is in the 50's all of a sudden I turn into a gazelle and run at least a minute/mile faster? I think that is also age related to some extent. And the "level of exertion" or avg HR stays about the same as during the slower runs. Sometimes I swear that if Map My Run wasn't telling me my pace per mile I would have no clue if I was running at a 12 minute pace or an 8:30 min one
I have this experience too. Humidity adds a minimum of 3 minutes to my pace for the same effort. Minimum. Add some heat and it’s even more than 3 minutes. Put me in the desert and I’m a speed demon.
3 -
SummerSkier wrote: »Just curious why you want to limit your HR @SummerSkier. Do you have a medical condition? Just being older is NOT a reason to slow down.
Just formulas based on age. I mostly ignore them. 🏃♀️. Got up to about 180 the other day during a sprint. Calculators generally say I should be in the 140s Max. You know 200 minus age thing.
I don't mean to quibble, or derail this discussion, but I believe the formula is 220 minus your age. That gives you a notion of what your heart might/should be able to achieve.
The formula is showing you (us) that the maximum rate at which our heart can pump goes down as we age.
Nobody says you cannot go up to that, if you want and are in good health/cardiovascular shape. At least not that I know of. What they say is that, generally, you should only go up to about 65-80 percent of that maximum heart rate when exercising to get cardiovascular benefit, without much risk. That's in part because you can keep up an activity that gets your heart rate to 80 percent for a fair amount of time. You probably cannot keep up a 100-percent activity for very long.0 -
GiddyupTim wrote: »SummerSkier wrote: »Just curious why you want to limit your HR @SummerSkier. Do you have a medical condition? Just being older is NOT a reason to slow down.
Just formulas based on age. I mostly ignore them. 🏃♀️. Got up to about 180 the other day during a sprint. Calculators generally say I should be in the 140s Max. You know 200 minus age thing.
I don't mean to quibble, or derail this discussion, but I believe the formula is 220 minus your age. That gives you a notion of what your heart might/should be able to achieve.
The formula is showing you (us) that the maximum rate at which our heart can pump goes down as we age.
Nobody says you cannot go up to that, if you want and are in good health/cardiovascular shape. At least not that I know of. What they say is that, generally, you should only go up to about 65-80 percent of that maximum heart rate when exercising to get cardiovascular benefit, without much risk. That's in part because you can keep up an activity that gets your heart rate to 80 percent for a fair amount of time. You probably cannot keep up a 100-percent activity for very long.
Yes - it's 220 actually.
And it's a pretty bad formula probably mostly for those that really care to have a decent idea of what it is.
For reasons of the ranges you mention for training desires.
It's a huge bell curve - women especially have a better chance of being more than 10 bpm outside a 10 bpm range around the calculated HRmax then within it.
And while it does go down as you age - the rate appears to be highly dependent on your maintenance of fitness level.
Just as BMR formula's have seen some decent improvements - especially for outliers, there are considered better HRmax formula's to hopefully get you into the ballpark better.1 -
ya - sorry I misspoke on the formula. Given that, my avg running pace is in the 160's. It's not my 100% hr for sure since that is my average. Just like other charts etc, they are a great place to start but individual data should always carry a little more weight. If I were to use the chart, then I would never run because I can hit 80% of the chart walking easily. And of course there are a lot of other variables like recovery rate etc. Is my avg heart rate higher for a specific reason? It could be. However i have had a stress echo test done a few years back and was given the all clear for running.1
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SummerSkier wrote: »ya - sorry I misspoke on the formula. Given that, my avg running pace is in the 160's. It's not my 100% hr for sure since that is my average. Just like other charts etc, they are a great place to start but individual data should always carry a little more weight. If I were to use the chart, then I would never run because I can hit 80% of the chart walking easily. And of course there are a lot of other variables like recovery rate etc. Is my avg heart rate higher for a specific reason? It could be. However i have had a stress echo test done a few years back and was given the all clear for running.
You should base your zones on your true max heart rate.
What is your highest measured heart rate when you are going full out intensity?0
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