Eating for the Orangutans - and me!

Wishusdonna
Wishusdonna Posts: 241 Member
in Food and Nutrition
Lots of debate online about palm oil at the moment thanks to a Greenpeace-produced online ad for Iceland. I've heard some people being very sceptical, talking about how much the Indonesian and Malaysian economies rely on farming this product, and the ethical hypocrisy of the frozen food store (still selling Cadbury chocolate, for example, which sources its palm from a very bad supplier). I think the additional clearance and haze-producing pollution from the expansion of the industry, plus increasing the manufacturing food miles, not to mention illegal destruction of habitat and deaths of orangutans, Sumatran tigers etc. is enough cause for me to try to cut out palm from my life as much as possible. I thought I was being really good and avoiding it, just because I was avoiding ramen noodles, but apparently not. It's in everything!!!

There are very few shampoo bars out there that don't use palm-derived SLS.
There are NO palm-free toothpastes.

In food it's in so much stuff that never needed it before. I've been eating so much palm-laden chocolate (it doesn't satisfy anymore, does it, the Cadbury's stuff?), and bread, and peanut butter, and cake... it's in all the junk really. And here I am, my weight-loss at a proper plateau. I'm wondering if cutting out the palm oil where I can won't just help my ginger cousins, the orangutans, but me!

I'm eating my last 2 slices of Aldi superseeded bread today, which contains palm (if it doesn't mention it on your packet, look for e472e). I baked a loaf yesterday, and will probably make another tonight or tomorrow. Breakfast was porridge oats with a dash of syrup. It boiled over in the microwave, but I rescued most of it! My soup is homemade potato and leek, the leek was fried in spreadable butter (softened with rapeseed). No stock cubes as they all contain palm - I used salt, pepper and parsley instead. Apple for a snack, and that's it - I have let the sandwich trolley pass me by, and the M&S van too.

Going to have veggie pasta for dinner - I'm not veggie, but trying to eat less meat. Mondays are good for that though, right?

Does anyone want to join me in going as palm-free as possible?
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Replies

  • cmriverside
    cmriverside Posts: 34,416 Member
    You're right - it's in everything. :(

    I started to pay attention to this about ten years ago. Good for you for trying to make a difference

    ALL the nut "milks" have it, too. Most of the ice creams. Nearly every baked product does, cookies, cakes, donuts, any packaged baked goods. I think the only way around it is to buy only whole foods. It's a huge sad problem.

    There is no such thing as "sustainable" palm oil, so don't fall for that one, either. Yes, it has helped economies. There are other ways besides slash and burn monocrops.

  • kshama2001
    kshama2001 Posts: 28,052 Member
    I am brand new to this topic. @Wishusdonna @cmriverside what do you think of Rainforest Alliance Certification? Greenwashing or a good thing?

    https://www.tomsofmaine.com/good-matters/thinking-sustainably/toms-of-maines-bar-soap-uses-rainforest-alliance-certified-palm-oil
  • amy19355
    amy19355 Posts: 805 Member
    edited November 2018
    When I visited Costa Rica a few years back, there was a lot of unhappy local talk about the palm oil plantations that had been moved in by corporate interests, and effectively taken over space previously occupied by native plantations of less lucrative plants.
  • Wishusdonna
    Wishusdonna Posts: 241 Member
    Thanks Kellyjellybelly - certainly something to bear in mind and take more care with. I do use scales, but most of the time I think approximate portions, fistfuls, thumb-sized etc. Also, ahem, too much cider. 1lb lost this week, but still can't get into my jeans. A little discipline needed. :(

    I just had a fail in that I bought my team some rice bars from the M&S van to cheer us up because of work and personal stuff that had made the morning horrible... and I checked the label and couldn't see palm oil. Of course, I'd missed it! So annoyed! Mainly with myself.

    What did I say...? No. More. Junk. Missus. CMriverside - you're so right!

    Also, I now need to burn an extra 200 calories today. :s

    You will be pleased to know my homeamde Irish soda bread is awesome, and a lot nicer even than my 'favourite' seeded loaf was the other day. It's in the dunking you really see the difference. Real bread maintains its integrity, but the quick-proved, flash-baked loaves are just air and fluff up in the soup like soggy clouds.

    kshama2001, I've always been a little sceptical about the frog symbol because manufacturers can use the logo with as little as 30% sustainably sourced ingredients. It's kind of a sticking plaster greenwash thing, and there's nothing on that website you linked to that states how much that manufacturer is committed towards sustainable sourcing apart from sourcing some certified ingredients. I think they need a lot of consumer pressure to be honest!

    Amy19355 my worries about Malaysia and Indonesia is the pure ignorance I've uncovered in just a couple of days' research. Some farmers have been led to believe they are not harming orangutans because they don't grow things Orangutans want to eat. It's those other farms that are the problem, and orangutans will try to eat the produce and get shot. Sadly, not much hope for education when the prices are driven down and they have to get the kids out of school to help with harvest to make ends meet. The EU is backing away from palm as a biofuel because of satellite images showing deforestation in 'protected' areas, plus higher emissions, and then the price of palm reached a six-year low after Trump raised import tariffs in the US, so Malaysia have struck a deal with China to import 500,000 tonnes more next year, even though there was a glut this year. We're being led to believe it's pointless because India and China want the cheap oil if we don't. But Chinese consumers don't want it in their food either, because of the sat fat. I think as the standard of living and technology rises, there will be a global revolution for this, but will it be too late?

    Good move by Norway though: https://www.greenmatters.com/news/2018/09/26/Z1LxlIt/norway-is-the-first-country-in-the-world-to-ban-deforestation


  • Wishusdonna
    Wishusdonna Posts: 241 Member
    Why can't I woo and hug you, cmriverside not fair!

    I've found that sometimes it is used as the fat in bread, but also in the esters like e472e which strengthens the gluten - for that flash baking. Got to check those e#s.

    My friend's daughter is over there now working in a sanctuary taking care of orangutans. I was supposed to be meeting him tonight and would have loved to have heard how she is getting on, but sadly he has cried off ill. She hasn't been there long. I was wondering if we might see her on another series of Jungle School one day!

    I also have a friend in the UK originally from San Francisco and she says she cried all her tears 30 years ago, no one would listen to her about the environment. And that was hanging round with all the hippy artists too!
  • cmriverside
    cmriverside Posts: 34,416 Member
    edited November 2018
    I think the best solution is just baking all my own baked goods. I then control the ingredients.

    It's hard though. I often say, "Sorry, orangs." But then I say sorry to a lot of animals on the regular. I feel like when we know better we really should do better.

    "Woo" on this site is used when someone disagrees...I've posted about palm oil quite a bit on this site and I used to get pretty wound up about it - especially when the, "Milk is bad," people get going. All the synthesized nut milks have palm oil - same with the coffee creamers (like International Delight.) The argument seems to be it isn't good to be a milk cow, so drink soy milk or almond milk because it's nicer to animals.

    Milk cows are not endangered. Jus' sayin'.

    Have I mentioned it's in everything?

  • Wishusdonna
    Wishusdonna Posts: 241 Member
    Oh no! I thought that was like a "Go CMRiverside!". I have removed the woo! Go CMRiverside! <3o:)

    If you watch The Good Place, Chidi has a crisis about almond milk when he learns it's not as environmentally friendly as he thought. I think I'm like that. I was ovo-lacto veggie. Now I'm... well going through a crisis, daily.
  • cmriverside
    cmriverside Posts: 34,416 Member
    I think if you are a thinking feeling person there is no way to not go through a crisis daily.

    There is no win/win when it comes to animals vs humans.

    We hold the power and we've proven to be very bad at using our power for good.
  • cmriverside
    cmriverside Posts: 34,416 Member
    I love "The Good Place" - :lol:
  • amy19355
    amy19355 Posts: 805 Member
    cmriverside wrote: »
    I don't believe for one minute there is any such thing as sustainably harvested palm oil. I don't think there is oversight or accountability, and it's really too late for the orangs who have been burned up with their families in their own homes. We get all wound up over California wildfires, and yet this is comparable to genocide.

    But call me a cynic, @kshama2001 :lol: - and I'll own that label proudly. I'm friendly with an orangutan activist, I mean she's pretty much dedicated all her free time to that cause for 30ish years, and she has been to these countries and has horrible stories to tell.

    It's just an unnecessary ingredient that helps with texture and shelf life and it is in everything. Don't get me started.

    The woo button is right there next to the hug. Feel free.

    The bold sentence gets closer to the reason that I think palm oil is so prevalent in foods: cooking at home from 'scratch' isn't as popular as it once was. I've never been in any kitchen that had a bottle of palm oil in the cupboard, and, I don't think I've ever once seen it for sale at the grocery store. (not to say it isn't out there for retail purchase, just that I've not run across it ).

    I think the stuff adds an unpleasant aftertaste and I avoid it like the bubonic plague.
  • lemurcat2
    lemurcat2 Posts: 7,885 Member
    cmriverside wrote: »
    I think the best solution is just baking all my own baked goods. I then control the ingredients.

    It's hard though. I often say, "Sorry, orangs." But then I say sorry to a lot of animals on the regular. I feel like when we know better we really should do better.

    "Woo" on this site is used when someone disagrees...I've posted about palm oil quite a bit on this site and I used to get pretty wound up about it - especially when the, "Milk is bad," people get going. All the synthesized nut milks have palm oil - same with the coffee creamers (like International Delight.) The argument seems to be it isn't good to be a milk cow, so drink soy milk or almond milk because it's nicer to animals.

    Milk cows are not endangered. Jus' sayin'.

    Have I mentioned it's in everything?

    I'm not anti dairy, but you can make nut milk at home (I usually do, since I like it for some uses) and there are brands that do not have palm oil. One example is Elmhurst brand (I saw this when shopping last night, so looked), and another is New Barn. (I knew about New Barn since it's what I normally buy if too lazy to make it, as it's more like the kind I'd make at home, containing more of the almonds.)

    The huge increase in demand for almonds and the nature of almond farming is another environmental problem, however.
  • janejellyroll
    janejellyroll Posts: 25,763 Member
    amy19355 wrote: »
    cmriverside wrote: »
    I don't believe for one minute there is any such thing as sustainably harvested palm oil. I don't think there is oversight or accountability, and it's really too late for the orangs who have been burned up with their families in their own homes. We get all wound up over California wildfires, and yet this is comparable to genocide.

    But call me a cynic, @kshama2001 :lol: - and I'll own that label proudly. I'm friendly with an orangutan activist, I mean she's pretty much dedicated all her free time to that cause for 30ish years, and she has been to these countries and has horrible stories to tell.

    It's just an unnecessary ingredient that helps with texture and shelf life and it is in everything. Don't get me started.

    The woo button is right there next to the hug. Feel free.

    The bold sentence gets closer to the reason that I think palm oil is so prevalent in foods: cooking at home from 'scratch' isn't as popular as it once was. I've never been in any kitchen that had a bottle of palm oil in the cupboard, and, I don't think I've ever once seen it for sale at the grocery store. (not to say it isn't out there for retail purchase, just that I've not run across it ).

    I think the stuff adds an unpleasant aftertaste and I avoid it like the bubonic plague.

    It's sold at Whole Foods, I've seen it there.
  • janejellyroll
    janejellyroll Posts: 25,763 Member
    lemurcat2 wrote: »
    cmriverside wrote: »
    I think the best solution is just baking all my own baked goods. I then control the ingredients.

    It's hard though. I often say, "Sorry, orangs." But then I say sorry to a lot of animals on the regular. I feel like when we know better we really should do better.

    "Woo" on this site is used when someone disagrees...I've posted about palm oil quite a bit on this site and I used to get pretty wound up about it - especially when the, "Milk is bad," people get going. All the synthesized nut milks have palm oil - same with the coffee creamers (like International Delight.) The argument seems to be it isn't good to be a milk cow, so drink soy milk or almond milk because it's nicer to animals.

    Milk cows are not endangered. Jus' sayin'.

    Have I mentioned it's in everything?

    I'm not anti dairy, but you can make nut milk at home (I usually do, since I like it for some uses) and there are brands that do not have palm oil. One example is Elmhurst brand (I saw this when shopping last night, so looked), and another is New Barn. (I knew about New Barn since it's what I normally buy if too lazy to make it, as it's more like the kind I'd make at home, containing more of the almonds.)

    The huge increase in demand for almonds and the nature of almond farming is another environmental problem, however.

    Califia Farms is also palm oil free (at least the almond milks that I've purchased, maybe not their entire product line).
  • Wishusdonna
    Wishusdonna Posts: 241 Member
    edited November 2018
    Another sneaky weigh (I know) to make sure that 1lb stayed off, because yesterday was bad. At my event last night, we got brought round snacks of white bread cheese sandwiches and samosas, so there would have been palm oil in the bread at least, but they were already made, so wasn't going to waste them and not eat.

    Today, we stand a chance at doing better! I have palm oil free (it says on the label) peanut butter on my soda bread for breakfast, lunch is egg noodles and veg I cooked last night (not the cheapo noodles, good noodles!) and my husband has done me a jelly snack pot! That's a fruit jelly he made up yesterday in a little tub. And there's one for tomorrow too, bless his heart! Plus an apple. That's a lot of food, but I have a late meeting after work to plan an event and won't get home for ages. (Must stick to tea in the meeting!)

    Don't know what I shall have for a late supper... I have a passata open so maybe pasta again with the rest of my olives. Or beans on toast if I am too knackered to cook.

    I need a plan in place for the weekend as I'm going to an all day event on Saturday with hotel stay. Last time I did the event in summer I took a packed lunch, but it's too cold to sit outside this time, and the cafe is bound to be full of bread and cakey things. Will have a think...
  • Wishusdonna
    Wishusdonna Posts: 241 Member
    Okay, discovered another fail from a few days ago, when I had this challenge half in mind. I bought a pizza I'd checked for palm oil. I checked very thoroughly and there was nothing on the label.

    A friend asks for recommendations, I was about to recommend the same pizza and send him the link - only I find it in the online ingredients list. It must have been disguised as vegetable on the label.

    Be careful guys!
  • Wishusdonna
    Wishusdonna Posts: 241 Member
    Had a great weekend in Derby. The event took place in the Quad which had it's own cafe, mainly sandwiches, and I thought a jacket potato would be a good option, but it was busy, so we repaired to the infamous Acropolis cafe, with it's 'pensioners specials'. I went for the chicken curry, which seemed to be roast chicken in a sauce made up of tomatoes, gravy and chilli powder. Good wholesome stuff, with added time travel back to the 70s!

    Palm oil likeliness: gravy.

    After the event, a friend drove us to Amoki, so more curry! This time I opted for the vegetarian platter followed by vegetable karahi and mushroom rice. Delicious, though quite mild, and slightly pricey, but it was a very nice restaurant.

    Palm oil likeliness: I don't think there was any. It was proper.

    Rest of the night, delicious Malbec and gin consumed. I'm pretty sure palm oil free.

    Sunday, the Premier Inn unlimited breakfast appeared quite palmy, with all the cereals and bread, so I stuck to the potato smorgasbord of the hot buffet. Probably sunflower oil in the hash browns. Did pretty well until the evening, when we drank the hot chocolate that came in our goody bags. There was palm oil in that.

    However, did pop to Lakeland to get more kitchen cleaner, and bought their Ecological one which is based on coconut oil for the surfectants. An exciting souvenir of Derby!
  • Finkelstien
    Finkelstien Posts: 55 Member
    edited November 2018
    Lush actually has created some shampoo bars that are palmoil free.

    https://uk.lush.com/article/lets-talk-about-sls
  • Wishusdonna
    Wishusdonna Posts: 241 Member
    Oh Finkelstein, you utter life saver!

    I'd obviously not read properly, but it looks like the new info from October is just bolted on to the end. Bullet point that stuff, please, Lush! Oh my life though... the comments!! Lush have always tried to raise the bar and as a consequence seem to be getting more harshly judged for missing.

    I'm currently using Honey I washed the kids, which has SLS, but like they say, you only need to swipe that across your head and you get tons of lather, so I'm glad to know that limits the amount of SLS used. I had sought out an SLS-free bar by Friendly, and I can get that from a place called Daily Bread (or online, but I like real shops), which is a trek, but walking's good. Not so much of a trek to go into town to go to Lush though. There's a couple there might be good for me!

    These are my Lush bar options then: https://uk.lush.com/products/lush-labs?solrsort=ds_created desc#showall

    And my hair is wavy rather than curly, but I like the look of Curly Wurly. Mind if blond curly hubby uses it, will he end up looking like Goldilocks?
  • blobby10
    blobby10 Posts: 357 Member
    Is there a list anywhere which will summarise those items using Palm Oil? I saw one really good one but it was Australian. It said Milky Way did use PO but Cadbury didn't and I KNOW Cadbury chocolate has PO in it! And is sustainable PO really sustainable? Is it better to try to avoid it completely?
  • Finkelstien
    Finkelstien Posts: 55 Member
    I have curly wurly (4 pots, at the moment, oops) and it is perfect and i am blonde. But it does not alter my texture a lot so i think your hubby will be fine.

    I worked for Lush for 7 years and i love their ethics. I love how they made a palmfree soap base and just gave the formula to the world to use. Any soap company can use it so there is less need for palmoil.
  • Wishusdonna
    Wishusdonna Posts: 241 Member
    Blobby10 - so far I've not found anything really comprehensive. But if you have an ingredients list in front of you and any of these are in it, it will contain palm oil (some SLS is coconut derived but not much): This is from WWF. not the wrestlers.

    INGREDIENTS: Vegetable Oil, Vegetable Fat, Palm Kernel, Palm Kernel Oil, Palm Fruit Oil, Palmate, Palmitate, Palmolein, Glyceryl, Stearate, Stearic Acid, Elaeis Guineensis, Palmitic Acid, Palm Stearine, Palmitoyl Oxostearamide, Palmitoyl Tetrapeptide-3, Sodium Laureth Sulfate, Sodium Lauryl Sulfate, Sodium Kernelate, Sodium Palm Kernelate, Sodium Lauryl Lactylate/Sulphate, Hyrated Palm Glycerides, Etyl Palmitate, Octyl Palmitate, Palmityl Alcohol

    Yes Cadburys in Oz is palm free because consumers campaigned for it. In the UK we've been very noisy about factory closures for moves to cheaper EU countries, the resizing of the bars, the sweetening of the bars, the weird oily taste of the bars, but they have gone la la la not listening. Maybe because we moan about everything!

    Despite what WWF and Greenpeace say, very few manufacturers go to the trouble of announcing the sustainability of their palm oil on labels, so you often have to check the website. Cadbury uk have nothing at all about palm on their website (I know from Greenpeace that their owners Mondelez are considered to buy 'dirty' palm oil) so I'm avoiding them full stop.

    I was discussing Greenpeace's official stance with hubby this weekend, because he wants to avoid palm oil as much as possible too, and he is anoyed that Greenpeace have said don't boycott it. But I think I know why this is the advice. In the EU 50% of the stuff in our supermarkets has palm oil in it, but some companies have joined ROSPO because there is a government-level concern about deforestation as well as a consumer one, and there's an expectation such demand will help clean up the industry. In order for governments to talk effectively to producer countries, we still need a stake in the market. If producer territories limit land use, stop deforestation (and try to reverse), and improve working practices then palm oil is a very efficient crop. The hope is, a demand for sustainable palm oil in the West will drive better practice, but it's a bit too long-term for my liking, especially as India and China are big consumers of no qualm palm. What's more, a glut of palm oil doesn't stop the deals as we've seen (deal Malaysia - China in October, an extra 500,000 tonnes to be purchased in 2019), it just drives the price down, and in previous years that has just increased volume and bad practices such as slavery and child labour, as well as deforestation.

    My position is, I want to live a long, healthy life in a world that's fit to leave to the next generation, and so I want to do my bit the best I can. I know it's much better for me not to eat the stuff. However, the ubiquitousness of palm oil means even if I decide to totally boycott palm, in practice I probably can't. Hence I've found this site really useful: https://www.ethicalconsumer.org/

    For example, I have sensitive teeth and usually use an advanced or Pro-enamel toothpaste, so Lush toothy tabs were not an option for me. I don't subscribe, but used the guide to switch up from nasty Colgate to Arm & Hammer who score a bit better.
  • blobby10
    blobby10 Posts: 357 Member
    Thanks Wishusdonna - how on earth are we supposed to distinguish between true vegetable oil and palm oil 'vegetable oil'?! And does Glyceryl always have PO in it? I have so many questions!! I saw that list from WWF but I guess that, as a teeny tiny consumer in a vast global market, I will be content with doing the little bit that I can and avoid PO as much as possible. Like all the global warming stuff, little old me in the middle of the UK reducing her carbon footprint isn't going to make a blind bit of difference when the likes of China, India and USA don't give a damn! Same with PO consumption.
  • JeromeBarry1
    JeromeBarry1 Posts: 10,179 Member
    The cold hard truth is that saving wildlife is a political responsibility of the local people.

  • blobby10
    blobby10 Posts: 357 Member
    cmriverside - I do apologise for my generalisation and appreciate that there must be lots of people in those countries who do care.
  • Wishusdonna
    Wishusdonna Posts: 241 Member
    edited November 2018
    There are lots of people the world over who are concerned, and that includes China and India. You can see on Twitter if you type in 棕榈油 and then translate the results, many Chinese-speaking people concerned about the ubiquitousness of palm oil, mainly because of the health and social implications for humans but also the environment.

    I would agree with CMriverside, Blobby10, plenty of concern in US over a lot of big processing. A lot of despair too, for people who just can't get hold of good food. We're seeing it in Britain in places with effective 'food deserts'.

    JeromeBarry1, I don't think we can afford to think that way really, but luckily it's local people driving awareness in SE Asia, running the sanctuaries, buying up land to prevent deforestation. Did you know Malaysian Primary Industry Minister Teresa Kok thinks we're all hypocrites because we allowed the forests in Britain to be destroyed without protest in our industrial revolution? Well, maybe she's not read enough Romantic Poetry to know about opposition to clearances, and we did send a few of the protestors to Australia... otherwise, it's true! In 1919 only 5% of the land was wooded so the FC was established, but it didn't make anyone get licenses for tree felling until 1941. We now have 12.9% woodland. It has always been a pain to be bothered about things, but we can do it!

  • Wishusdonna
    Wishusdonna Posts: 241 Member
    Bad news!

    My cat has put his paw down. I used my consumer guide to pick a more ethical cat food brand. He used to eat Butchers, so I tried him again, easing him in by mixing it with KiteKat. Nope. Have to cover the stuff in cat yoghurt to get him to eat it and he looks at it mournfully.

    What can I expect? He's a cold-hearted killer. An ageing and fussy one.

    Made a loaf last night. It is great, but because I went to the gym first, and the buses were late, I ended up making the bread at 9pm and then it was gone midnight by the time it was cool enough for sandwiches.

    They will be delicious sandwiches.

    Quite impactful on the old food log. I guess you tend to cut delicious homemade bread slices quite thick! I'm on 65% carbs before dinner tonight.
  • apparations
    apparations Posts: 264 Member
    cmriverside wrote: »

    "Woo" on this site is used when someone disagrees...

    Oh no, I've been Woo-ing people all over the place thinking I was cheering them on!

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