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Ignoring the Industry
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garystrickland357
Posts: 598 Member
in Debate Club
I’ve been around MFP now for a while (not as long as some) and have successfully lost over 75 pounds. Now I’m adjusting to maintenance. Here’s what I want to debate - how you feel about people here having to not only overcome personal dysfunction concerning weight loss but also all the bad information out there about the “best way” to lose weight.
To explain - I know I came here because I needed a tool to help me lose weight. I was unsuccessful losing weight intuitively. My wife of 35 years has always been able to manage her weight. I always struggled. Once I started seriously using MFP my journey became manageable. I have a realistic calorie budget and I track calories to stay within that budget. Simple - but not easy.
I think what makes it hard for so many though is we here at MFP often have to convince folks to ignore all the *kitten* they read and hear. The weight loss industry is worth $66 Billion dollars according to a quick Google search. I also did a quick Google search using the key words “how to lose weight”. I assume that many folks that decide one day they want to regain control of their life might do the same. The first two pages of links all contained fundamentally flawed information (in my opinion). Almost none of the sites explained the need for a calorie deficit in order to lose weight. Almost all had something to sell.
So this is the situation I see here over and over. Folks come here because they want to lose weight. I believe they are sincere. The issue however is that most have a dysfunctional relationship with food or they wouldn’t be here. They also have a head full of bad information from what they have read or what they have been told. They have a lot to “unlearn.” Some folks here listen, change their thinking and succeed in reaching their goals. Others refuse to unlearn what they think to be true - they argue with the very people they asked to help them - because they can’t let go of the bad information put out there by the weight loss industry.
What do you think?
To explain - I know I came here because I needed a tool to help me lose weight. I was unsuccessful losing weight intuitively. My wife of 35 years has always been able to manage her weight. I always struggled. Once I started seriously using MFP my journey became manageable. I have a realistic calorie budget and I track calories to stay within that budget. Simple - but not easy.
I think what makes it hard for so many though is we here at MFP often have to convince folks to ignore all the *kitten* they read and hear. The weight loss industry is worth $66 Billion dollars according to a quick Google search. I also did a quick Google search using the key words “how to lose weight”. I assume that many folks that decide one day they want to regain control of their life might do the same. The first two pages of links all contained fundamentally flawed information (in my opinion). Almost none of the sites explained the need for a calorie deficit in order to lose weight. Almost all had something to sell.
So this is the situation I see here over and over. Folks come here because they want to lose weight. I believe they are sincere. The issue however is that most have a dysfunctional relationship with food or they wouldn’t be here. They also have a head full of bad information from what they have read or what they have been told. They have a lot to “unlearn.” Some folks here listen, change their thinking and succeed in reaching their goals. Others refuse to unlearn what they think to be true - they argue with the very people they asked to help them - because they can’t let go of the bad information put out there by the weight loss industry.
What do you think?
14
Replies
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garystrickland357 wrote: »I’ve been around MFP now for a while (not as long as some) and have successfully lost over 75 pounds. Now I’m adjusting to maintenance. Here’s what I want to debate - how you feel about people here having to not only overcome personal dysfunction concerning weight loss but also all the bad information out there about the “best way” to lose weight.
To explain - I know I came here because I needed a tool to help me lose weight. I was unsuccessful losing weight intuitively. My wife of 35 years has always been able to manage her weight. I always struggled. Once I started seriously using MFP my journey became manageable. I have a realistic calorie budget and I track calories to stay within that budget. Simple - but not easy.
I think what makes it hard for so many though is we here at MFP often have to convince folks to ignore all the *kitten* they read and hear. The weight loss industry is worth $66 Billion dollars according to a quick Google search. I also did a quick Google search using the key words “how to lose weight”. I assume that many folks that decide one day they want to regain control of their life might do the same. The first two pages of links all contained fundamentally flawed information (in my opinion). Almost none of the sites explained the need for a calorie deficit in order to lose weight. Almost all had something to sell.
So this is the situation I see here over and over. Folks come here because they want to lose weight. I believe they are sincere. The issue however is that most have a dysfunctional relationship with food or they wouldn’t be here. They also have a head full of bad information from what they have read or what they have been told. They have a lot to “unlearn.” Some folks here listen, change their thinking and succeed in reaching their goals. Others refuse to unlearn what they think to be true - they argue with the very people they asked to help them - because they can’t let go of the bad information put out there by the weight loss industry.
What do you think?
I think that is true of a lot of things in life. Anything in the media is not looking to help people; it is about making a profit. Big Business makes the commercials and ads. They do not make money telling people to eat let. Current society wants a quick fix and instant gratification and companies see that. Some people are open minded enough to listen to multiple sides of a story and make an educated decision. Some people are smart enough to know to back hearsay with science and facts. Others will only listen to what they want to hear and take that and run. Big Pharma doesn't making money fixing people, they make money treating symptoms.14 -
I think emotion plays a part in this as well, in ways we don't see in other aspects of life. But yes, I do agree with what you are saying.2
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Cassandraw3 wrote: »garystrickland357 wrote: »I’ve been around MFP now for a while (not as long as some) and have successfully lost over 75 pounds. Now I’m adjusting to maintenance. Here’s what I want to debate - how you feel about people here having to not only overcome personal dysfunction concerning weight loss but also all the bad information out there about the “best way” to lose weight.
To explain - I know I came here because I needed a tool to help me lose weight. I was unsuccessful losing weight intuitively. My wife of 35 years has always been able to manage her weight. I always struggled. Once I started seriously using MFP my journey became manageable. I have a realistic calorie budget and I track calories to stay within that budget. Simple - but not easy.
I think what makes it hard for so many though is we here at MFP often have to convince folks to ignore all the *kitten* they read and hear. The weight loss industry is worth $66 Billion dollars according to a quick Google search. I also did a quick Google search using the key words “how to lose weight”. I assume that many folks that decide one day they want to regain control of their life might do the same. The first two pages of links all contained fundamentally flawed information (in my opinion). Almost none of the sites explained the need for a calorie deficit in order to lose weight. Almost all had something to sell.
So this is the situation I see here over and over. Folks come here because they want to lose weight. I believe they are sincere. The issue however is that most have a dysfunctional relationship with food or they wouldn’t be here. They also have a head full of bad information from what they have read or what they have been told. They have a lot to “unlearn.” Some folks here listen, change their thinking and succeed in reaching their goals. Others refuse to unlearn what they think to be true - they argue with the very people they asked to help them - because they can’t let go of the bad information put out there by the weight loss industry.
What do you think?
I think that is true of a lot of things in life. Anything in the media is not looking to help people; it is about making a profit. Big Business makes the commercials and ads. They do not make money telling people to eat let. Current society wants a quick fix and instant gratification and companies see that. Some people are open minded enough to listen to multiple sides of a story and make an educated decision. Some people are smart enough to know to back hearsay with science and facts. Others will only listen to what they want to hear and take that and run. Big Pharma doesn't making money fixing people, they make money treating symptoms.
If drug companies only make money from treating symptoms, how do you account for the fact that there are cures out there and available for sale? I've been "fixed" by drugs, I know people who have been "fixed" by drugs. Not everything is treating symptoms.20 -
janejellyroll wrote: »Cassandraw3 wrote: »garystrickland357 wrote: »I’ve been around MFP now for a while (not as long as some) and have successfully lost over 75 pounds. Now I’m adjusting to maintenance. Here’s what I want to debate - how you feel about people here having to not only overcome personal dysfunction concerning weight loss but also all the bad information out there about the “best way” to lose weight.
To explain - I know I came here because I needed a tool to help me lose weight. I was unsuccessful losing weight intuitively. My wife of 35 years has always been able to manage her weight. I always struggled. Once I started seriously using MFP my journey became manageable. I have a realistic calorie budget and I track calories to stay within that budget. Simple - but not easy.
I think what makes it hard for so many though is we here at MFP often have to convince folks to ignore all the *kitten* they read and hear. The weight loss industry is worth $66 Billion dollars according to a quick Google search. I also did a quick Google search using the key words “how to lose weight”. I assume that many folks that decide one day they want to regain control of their life might do the same. The first two pages of links all contained fundamentally flawed information (in my opinion). Almost none of the sites explained the need for a calorie deficit in order to lose weight. Almost all had something to sell.
So this is the situation I see here over and over. Folks come here because they want to lose weight. I believe they are sincere. The issue however is that most have a dysfunctional relationship with food or they wouldn’t be here. They also have a head full of bad information from what they have read or what they have been told. They have a lot to “unlearn.” Some folks here listen, change their thinking and succeed in reaching their goals. Others refuse to unlearn what they think to be true - they argue with the very people they asked to help them - because they can’t let go of the bad information put out there by the weight loss industry.
What do you think?
I think that is true of a lot of things in life. Anything in the media is not looking to help people; it is about making a profit. Big Business makes the commercials and ads. They do not make money telling people to eat let. Current society wants a quick fix and instant gratification and companies see that. Some people are open minded enough to listen to multiple sides of a story and make an educated decision. Some people are smart enough to know to back hearsay with science and facts. Others will only listen to what they want to hear and take that and run. Big Pharma doesn't making money fixing people, they make money treating symptoms.
If drug companies only make money from treating symptoms, how do you account for the fact that there are cures out there and available for sale? I've been "fixed" by drugs, I know people who have been "fixed" by drugs. Not everything is treating symptoms.
There are exceptions to the rule, but a majority of medications do not treat the root cause. They treat the symptoms to mask the real issue. And sometimes lead to other issues requiring more medications. While I do believe, in some cases, medications are necessary, oftentimes doctors are too willing and quick to prescribe drugs to fix issues which would better be fixed by lifestyle changes.22 -
What's fascinating is that nearly all marketed diet plans adopt some manner of CICO, but the calorie tracking is hidden underneath the operational model. This is to keep the consumer base.
I don't necessarily believe that there is an underlying dysfunctional relationship with food. It is simply ignorance - much of this is delivered by the industry. Quite profitable to spread misinformation/disinformation when there's a 66B industry at stake.
The Western world has a similar issue with finance and debt and there is no underlying unhealthy relationship with money. People simply need to live within their budget, whether this be calories or money.
Having this tool puts the power in the hands of the individual. You can choose to either sacrifice your future for your present or you can choose to sacrifice your present for your future. Most aren't even aware of this exchange.12 -
Cassandraw3 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Cassandraw3 wrote: »garystrickland357 wrote: »I’ve been around MFP now for a while (not as long as some) and have successfully lost over 75 pounds. Now I’m adjusting to maintenance. Here’s what I want to debate - how you feel about people here having to not only overcome personal dysfunction concerning weight loss but also all the bad information out there about the “best way” to lose weight.
To explain - I know I came here because I needed a tool to help me lose weight. I was unsuccessful losing weight intuitively. My wife of 35 years has always been able to manage her weight. I always struggled. Once I started seriously using MFP my journey became manageable. I have a realistic calorie budget and I track calories to stay within that budget. Simple - but not easy.
I think what makes it hard for so many though is we here at MFP often have to convince folks to ignore all the *kitten* they read and hear. The weight loss industry is worth $66 Billion dollars according to a quick Google search. I also did a quick Google search using the key words “how to lose weight”. I assume that many folks that decide one day they want to regain control of their life might do the same. The first two pages of links all contained fundamentally flawed information (in my opinion). Almost none of the sites explained the need for a calorie deficit in order to lose weight. Almost all had something to sell.
So this is the situation I see here over and over. Folks come here because they want to lose weight. I believe they are sincere. The issue however is that most have a dysfunctional relationship with food or they wouldn’t be here. They also have a head full of bad information from what they have read or what they have been told. They have a lot to “unlearn.” Some folks here listen, change their thinking and succeed in reaching their goals. Others refuse to unlearn what they think to be true - they argue with the very people they asked to help them - because they can’t let go of the bad information put out there by the weight loss industry.
What do you think?
I think that is true of a lot of things in life. Anything in the media is not looking to help people; it is about making a profit. Big Business makes the commercials and ads. They do not make money telling people to eat let. Current society wants a quick fix and instant gratification and companies see that. Some people are open minded enough to listen to multiple sides of a story and make an educated decision. Some people are smart enough to know to back hearsay with science and facts. Others will only listen to what they want to hear and take that and run. Big Pharma doesn't making money fixing people, they make money treating symptoms.
If drug companies only make money from treating symptoms, how do you account for the fact that there are cures out there and available for sale? I've been "fixed" by drugs, I know people who have been "fixed" by drugs. Not everything is treating symptoms.
There are exceptions to the rule, but a majority of medications do not treat the root cause. They treat the symptoms to mask the real issue. And sometimes lead to other issues requiring more medications. While I do believe, in some cases, medications are necessary, oftentimes doctors are too willing and quick to prescribe drugs to fix issues which would better be fixed by lifestyle changes.
For medications that treat symptoms, do you think there are cures for those conditions that are somehow being suppressed?
In some instances, we treat the symptoms because that is what we currently know how to do. There is no cure currently available (unless you believe that drug companies have discovered cures and are hiding them for some conditions while releasing them for others).
When it comes to drugs for conditions that could be treated by lifestyle changes, doctors are often doing what they can to manage the health of people who *refuse* to make lifestyle changes. To think otherwise, we'd have to decide that people are genuinely unaware of how their lifestyle interacts with things like high cholesterol, type 2 diabetes, high blood pressure, and risk for certain cancers. People taking these drugs often have had the chance to make lifestyle changes and *didn't*, for whatever reason. Doctors can't force people to lose weight, they're doing the best they can to help people who are on a certain path. If someone is overweight for years and then develops conditions that are related for that, a doctor is ethically *obligated* to be quick to prescribe drugs to help them. To withhold the drugs to manage the symptoms would be a violation of their oath.20 -
Cassandraw3 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Cassandraw3 wrote: »garystrickland357 wrote: »I’ve been around MFP now for a while (not as long as some) and have successfully lost over 75 pounds. Now I’m adjusting to maintenance. Here’s what I want to debate - how you feel about people here having to not only overcome personal dysfunction concerning weight loss but also all the bad information out there about the “best way” to lose weight.
To explain - I know I came here because I needed a tool to help me lose weight. I was unsuccessful losing weight intuitively. My wife of 35 years has always been able to manage her weight. I always struggled. Once I started seriously using MFP my journey became manageable. I have a realistic calorie budget and I track calories to stay within that budget. Simple - but not easy.
I think what makes it hard for so many though is we here at MFP often have to convince folks to ignore all the *kitten* they read and hear. The weight loss industry is worth $66 Billion dollars according to a quick Google search. I also did a quick Google search using the key words “how to lose weight”. I assume that many folks that decide one day they want to regain control of their life might do the same. The first two pages of links all contained fundamentally flawed information (in my opinion). Almost none of the sites explained the need for a calorie deficit in order to lose weight. Almost all had something to sell.
So this is the situation I see here over and over. Folks come here because they want to lose weight. I believe they are sincere. The issue however is that most have a dysfunctional relationship with food or they wouldn’t be here. They also have a head full of bad information from what they have read or what they have been told. They have a lot to “unlearn.” Some folks here listen, change their thinking and succeed in reaching their goals. Others refuse to unlearn what they think to be true - they argue with the very people they asked to help them - because they can’t let go of the bad information put out there by the weight loss industry.
What do you think?
I think that is true of a lot of things in life. Anything in the media is not looking to help people; it is about making a profit. Big Business makes the commercials and ads. They do not make money telling people to eat let. Current society wants a quick fix and instant gratification and companies see that. Some people are open minded enough to listen to multiple sides of a story and make an educated decision. Some people are smart enough to know to back hearsay with science and facts. Others will only listen to what they want to hear and take that and run. Big Pharma doesn't making money fixing people, they make money treating symptoms.
If drug companies only make money from treating symptoms, how do you account for the fact that there are cures out there and available for sale? I've been "fixed" by drugs, I know people who have been "fixed" by drugs. Not everything is treating symptoms.
There are exceptions to the rule, but a majority of medications do not treat the root cause. They treat the symptoms to mask the real issue. And sometimes lead to other issues requiring more medications. While I do believe, in some cases, medications are necessary, oftentimes doctors are too willing and quick to prescribe drugs to fix issues which would better be fixed by lifestyle changes.
Medication can rarely, if ever, fully treat the root cause. Unless the underlying issue is medical (which is rarely is).
The industry is being asked to complete an impossible task. People purchase what they want, not what they need.10 -
janejellyroll wrote: »Cassandraw3 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Cassandraw3 wrote: »garystrickland357 wrote: »I’ve been around MFP now for a while (not as long as some) and have successfully lost over 75 pounds. Now I’m adjusting to maintenance. Here’s what I want to debate - how you feel about people here having to not only overcome personal dysfunction concerning weight loss but also all the bad information out there about the “best way” to lose weight.
To explain - I know I came here because I needed a tool to help me lose weight. I was unsuccessful losing weight intuitively. My wife of 35 years has always been able to manage her weight. I always struggled. Once I started seriously using MFP my journey became manageable. I have a realistic calorie budget and I track calories to stay within that budget. Simple - but not easy.
I think what makes it hard for so many though is we here at MFP often have to convince folks to ignore all the *kitten* they read and hear. The weight loss industry is worth $66 Billion dollars according to a quick Google search. I also did a quick Google search using the key words “how to lose weight”. I assume that many folks that decide one day they want to regain control of their life might do the same. The first two pages of links all contained fundamentally flawed information (in my opinion). Almost none of the sites explained the need for a calorie deficit in order to lose weight. Almost all had something to sell.
So this is the situation I see here over and over. Folks come here because they want to lose weight. I believe they are sincere. The issue however is that most have a dysfunctional relationship with food or they wouldn’t be here. They also have a head full of bad information from what they have read or what they have been told. They have a lot to “unlearn.” Some folks here listen, change their thinking and succeed in reaching their goals. Others refuse to unlearn what they think to be true - they argue with the very people they asked to help them - because they can’t let go of the bad information put out there by the weight loss industry.
What do you think?
I think that is true of a lot of things in life. Anything in the media is not looking to help people; it is about making a profit. Big Business makes the commercials and ads. They do not make money telling people to eat let. Current society wants a quick fix and instant gratification and companies see that. Some people are open minded enough to listen to multiple sides of a story and make an educated decision. Some people are smart enough to know to back hearsay with science and facts. Others will only listen to what they want to hear and take that and run. Big Pharma doesn't making money fixing people, they make money treating symptoms.
If drug companies only make money from treating symptoms, how do you account for the fact that there are cures out there and available for sale? I've been "fixed" by drugs, I know people who have been "fixed" by drugs. Not everything is treating symptoms.
There are exceptions to the rule, but a majority of medications do not treat the root cause. They treat the symptoms to mask the real issue. And sometimes lead to other issues requiring more medications. While I do believe, in some cases, medications are necessary, oftentimes doctors are too willing and quick to prescribe drugs to fix issues which would better be fixed by lifestyle changes.
For medications that treat symptoms, do you think there are cures for those conditions that are somehow being suppressed?
In some instances, we treat the symptoms because that is what we currently know how to do. There is no cure currently available (unless you believe that drug companies have discovered cures and are hiding them for some conditions while releasing them for others).
When it comes to drugs for conditions that could be treated by lifestyle changes, doctors are often doing what they can to manage the health of people who *refuse* to make lifestyle changes. To think otherwise, we'd have to decide that people are genuinely unaware of how their lifestyle interacts with things like high cholesterol, type 2 diabetes, high blood pressure, and risk for certain cancers. People taking these drugs often have had the chance to make lifestyle changes and *didn't*, for whatever reason. Doctors can't force people to lose weight, they're doing the best they can to help people who are on a certain path. If someone is overweight for years and then develops conditions that are related for that, a doctor is ethically *obligated* to be quick to prescribe drugs to help them. To withhold the drugs to manage the symptoms would be a violation of their oath.
Clearly I have hit a nerve with you, which that was not my intention. I am by no means a doctor. I can only speak from experience involving my parents and other relatives. Poor eating habits run in my family. While I do agree that some people ignore the advice from doctors, I do feel like the generic response to patients to "lose weight for your health" is not nearly enough. Those patients are not provided the proper resources to do so, nor are they educated enough on the issue. The quick fix is take this medication for your heart/diabetes/cholesterol/whatever else.
As far as cures for conditions being suppressed, I really hope that is not the case, but I cannot say for sure.11 -
Cassandraw3 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Cassandraw3 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Cassandraw3 wrote: »garystrickland357 wrote: »I’ve been around MFP now for a while (not as long as some) and have successfully lost over 75 pounds. Now I’m adjusting to maintenance. Here’s what I want to debate - how you feel about people here having to not only overcome personal dysfunction concerning weight loss but also all the bad information out there about the “best way” to lose weight.
To explain - I know I came here because I needed a tool to help me lose weight. I was unsuccessful losing weight intuitively. My wife of 35 years has always been able to manage her weight. I always struggled. Once I started seriously using MFP my journey became manageable. I have a realistic calorie budget and I track calories to stay within that budget. Simple - but not easy.
I think what makes it hard for so many though is we here at MFP often have to convince folks to ignore all the *kitten* they read and hear. The weight loss industry is worth $66 Billion dollars according to a quick Google search. I also did a quick Google search using the key words “how to lose weight”. I assume that many folks that decide one day they want to regain control of their life might do the same. The first two pages of links all contained fundamentally flawed information (in my opinion). Almost none of the sites explained the need for a calorie deficit in order to lose weight. Almost all had something to sell.
So this is the situation I see here over and over. Folks come here because they want to lose weight. I believe they are sincere. The issue however is that most have a dysfunctional relationship with food or they wouldn’t be here. They also have a head full of bad information from what they have read or what they have been told. They have a lot to “unlearn.” Some folks here listen, change their thinking and succeed in reaching their goals. Others refuse to unlearn what they think to be true - they argue with the very people they asked to help them - because they can’t let go of the bad information put out there by the weight loss industry.
What do you think?
I think that is true of a lot of things in life. Anything in the media is not looking to help people; it is about making a profit. Big Business makes the commercials and ads. They do not make money telling people to eat let. Current society wants a quick fix and instant gratification and companies see that. Some people are open minded enough to listen to multiple sides of a story and make an educated decision. Some people are smart enough to know to back hearsay with science and facts. Others will only listen to what they want to hear and take that and run. Big Pharma doesn't making money fixing people, they make money treating symptoms.
If drug companies only make money from treating symptoms, how do you account for the fact that there are cures out there and available for sale? I've been "fixed" by drugs, I know people who have been "fixed" by drugs. Not everything is treating symptoms.
There are exceptions to the rule, but a majority of medications do not treat the root cause. They treat the symptoms to mask the real issue. And sometimes lead to other issues requiring more medications. While I do believe, in some cases, medications are necessary, oftentimes doctors are too willing and quick to prescribe drugs to fix issues which would better be fixed by lifestyle changes.
For medications that treat symptoms, do you think there are cures for those conditions that are somehow being suppressed?
In some instances, we treat the symptoms because that is what we currently know how to do. There is no cure currently available (unless you believe that drug companies have discovered cures and are hiding them for some conditions while releasing them for others).
When it comes to drugs for conditions that could be treated by lifestyle changes, doctors are often doing what they can to manage the health of people who *refuse* to make lifestyle changes. To think otherwise, we'd have to decide that people are genuinely unaware of how their lifestyle interacts with things like high cholesterol, type 2 diabetes, high blood pressure, and risk for certain cancers. People taking these drugs often have had the chance to make lifestyle changes and *didn't*, for whatever reason. Doctors can't force people to lose weight, they're doing the best they can to help people who are on a certain path. If someone is overweight for years and then develops conditions that are related for that, a doctor is ethically *obligated* to be quick to prescribe drugs to help them. To withhold the drugs to manage the symptoms would be a violation of their oath.
Clearly I have hit a nerve with you, which that was not my intention. I am by no means a doctor. I can only speak from experience involving my parents and other relatives. Poor eating habits run in my family. While I do agree that some people ignore the advice from doctors, I do feel like the generic response to patients to "lose weight for your health" is not nearly enough. Those patients are not provided the proper resources to do so, nor are they educated enough on the issue. The quick fix is take this medication for your heart/diabetes/cholesterol/whatever else.
As far as cures for conditions being suppressed, I really hope that is not the case, but I cannot say for sure.
You didn't hit a nerve, I'm debating (this is the debate area).
What resources do you think your family members needed to lose weight?
Even if they had the resources made available, doctors are ethically obligated to provide a "fix" while people are attempting to adjust their lifestyle. Letting conditions like type 2 diabetes or high blood pressure persist untreated while people are trying to lose weight wouldn't be compatible with the best interests of the patients. Given that we know how hard it is even for highly motivated people to lose weight and keep it off, what would you have doctors do in this situation?
12 -
Cassandraw3 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Cassandraw3 wrote: »garystrickland357 wrote: »I’ve been around MFP now for a while (not as long as some) and have successfully lost over 75 pounds. Now I’m adjusting to maintenance. Here’s what I want to debate - how you feel about people here having to not only overcome personal dysfunction concerning weight loss but also all the bad information out there about the “best way” to lose weight.
To explain - I know I came here because I needed a tool to help me lose weight. I was unsuccessful losing weight intuitively. My wife of 35 years has always been able to manage her weight. I always struggled. Once I started seriously using MFP my journey became manageable. I have a realistic calorie budget and I track calories to stay within that budget. Simple - but not easy.
I think what makes it hard for so many though is we here at MFP often have to convince folks to ignore all the *kitten* they read and hear. The weight loss industry is worth $66 Billion dollars according to a quick Google search. I also did a quick Google search using the key words “how to lose weight”. I assume that many folks that decide one day they want to regain control of their life might do the same. The first two pages of links all contained fundamentally flawed information (in my opinion). Almost none of the sites explained the need for a calorie deficit in order to lose weight. Almost all had something to sell.
So this is the situation I see here over and over. Folks come here because they want to lose weight. I believe they are sincere. The issue however is that most have a dysfunctional relationship with food or they wouldn’t be here. They also have a head full of bad information from what they have read or what they have been told. They have a lot to “unlearn.” Some folks here listen, change their thinking and succeed in reaching their goals. Others refuse to unlearn what they think to be true - they argue with the very people they asked to help them - because they can’t let go of the bad information put out there by the weight loss industry.
What do you think?
I think that is true of a lot of things in life. Anything in the media is not looking to help people; it is about making a profit. Big Business makes the commercials and ads. They do not make money telling people to eat let. Current society wants a quick fix and instant gratification and companies see that. Some people are open minded enough to listen to multiple sides of a story and make an educated decision. Some people are smart enough to know to back hearsay with science and facts. Others will only listen to what they want to hear and take that and run. Big Pharma doesn't making money fixing people, they make money treating symptoms.
If drug companies only make money from treating symptoms, how do you account for the fact that there are cures out there and available for sale? I've been "fixed" by drugs, I know people who have been "fixed" by drugs. Not everything is treating symptoms.
There are exceptions to the rule, but a majority of medications do not treat the root cause. They treat the symptoms to mask the real issue. And sometimes lead to other issues requiring more medications. While I do believe, in some cases, medications are necessary, oftentimes doctors are too willing and quick to prescribe drugs to fix issues which would better be fixed by lifestyle changes.
Medication can rarely, if ever, fully treat the root cause. Unless the underlying issue is medical (which is rarely is).
The industry is being asked to complete an impossible task. People purchase what they want, not what they need.
The "cure" for many chronic health conditions is to reach and maintain a healthy body weight. This can't (at the present moment) be bottled or prescribed, it's something that people have to do on their own. Faulting medicine for only treating symptoms of conditions related to obesity doesn't make sense to me.8 -
janejellyroll wrote: »Cassandraw3 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Cassandraw3 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Cassandraw3 wrote: »garystrickland357 wrote: »I’ve been around MFP now for a while (not as long as some) and have successfully lost over 75 pounds. Now I’m adjusting to maintenance. Here’s what I want to debate - how you feel about people here having to not only overcome personal dysfunction concerning weight loss but also all the bad information out there about the “best way” to lose weight.
To explain - I know I came here because I needed a tool to help me lose weight. I was unsuccessful losing weight intuitively. My wife of 35 years has always been able to manage her weight. I always struggled. Once I started seriously using MFP my journey became manageable. I have a realistic calorie budget and I track calories to stay within that budget. Simple - but not easy.
I think what makes it hard for so many though is we here at MFP often have to convince folks to ignore all the *kitten* they read and hear. The weight loss industry is worth $66 Billion dollars according to a quick Google search. I also did a quick Google search using the key words “how to lose weight”. I assume that many folks that decide one day they want to regain control of their life might do the same. The first two pages of links all contained fundamentally flawed information (in my opinion). Almost none of the sites explained the need for a calorie deficit in order to lose weight. Almost all had something to sell.
So this is the situation I see here over and over. Folks come here because they want to lose weight. I believe they are sincere. The issue however is that most have a dysfunctional relationship with food or they wouldn’t be here. They also have a head full of bad information from what they have read or what they have been told. They have a lot to “unlearn.” Some folks here listen, change their thinking and succeed in reaching their goals. Others refuse to unlearn what they think to be true - they argue with the very people they asked to help them - because they can’t let go of the bad information put out there by the weight loss industry.
What do you think?
I think that is true of a lot of things in life. Anything in the media is not looking to help people; it is about making a profit. Big Business makes the commercials and ads. They do not make money telling people to eat let. Current society wants a quick fix and instant gratification and companies see that. Some people are open minded enough to listen to multiple sides of a story and make an educated decision. Some people are smart enough to know to back hearsay with science and facts. Others will only listen to what they want to hear and take that and run. Big Pharma doesn't making money fixing people, they make money treating symptoms.
If drug companies only make money from treating symptoms, how do you account for the fact that there are cures out there and available for sale? I've been "fixed" by drugs, I know people who have been "fixed" by drugs. Not everything is treating symptoms.
There are exceptions to the rule, but a majority of medications do not treat the root cause. They treat the symptoms to mask the real issue. And sometimes lead to other issues requiring more medications. While I do believe, in some cases, medications are necessary, oftentimes doctors are too willing and quick to prescribe drugs to fix issues which would better be fixed by lifestyle changes.
For medications that treat symptoms, do you think there are cures for those conditions that are somehow being suppressed?
In some instances, we treat the symptoms because that is what we currently know how to do. There is no cure currently available (unless you believe that drug companies have discovered cures and are hiding them for some conditions while releasing them for others).
When it comes to drugs for conditions that could be treated by lifestyle changes, doctors are often doing what they can to manage the health of people who *refuse* to make lifestyle changes. To think otherwise, we'd have to decide that people are genuinely unaware of how their lifestyle interacts with things like high cholesterol, type 2 diabetes, high blood pressure, and risk for certain cancers. People taking these drugs often have had the chance to make lifestyle changes and *didn't*, for whatever reason. Doctors can't force people to lose weight, they're doing the best they can to help people who are on a certain path. If someone is overweight for years and then develops conditions that are related for that, a doctor is ethically *obligated* to be quick to prescribe drugs to help them. To withhold the drugs to manage the symptoms would be a violation of their oath.
Clearly I have hit a nerve with you, which that was not my intention. I am by no means a doctor. I can only speak from experience involving my parents and other relatives. Poor eating habits run in my family. While I do agree that some people ignore the advice from doctors, I do feel like the generic response to patients to "lose weight for your health" is not nearly enough. Those patients are not provided the proper resources to do so, nor are they educated enough on the issue. The quick fix is take this medication for your heart/diabetes/cholesterol/whatever else.
As far as cures for conditions being suppressed, I really hope that is not the case, but I cannot say for sure.
You didn't hit a nerve, I'm debating (this is the debate area).
What resources do you think your family members needed to lose weight?
Even if they had the resources made available, doctors are ethically obligated to provide a "fix" while people are attempting to adjust their lifestyle. Letting conditions like type 2 diabetes or high blood pressure persist untreated while people are trying to lose weight wouldn't be compatible with the best interests of the patients. Given that we know how hard it is even for highly motivated people to lose weight and keep it off, what would you have doctors do in this situation?
First step would be being referred to a nutritionist.
I am not faulting the doctors for the patients not losing weight. There is a lot of misinformation out there and doctors will not always know what the patient is aware of.2 -
Cassandraw3 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Cassandraw3 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Cassandraw3 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Cassandraw3 wrote: »garystrickland357 wrote: »I’ve been around MFP now for a while (not as long as some) and have successfully lost over 75 pounds. Now I’m adjusting to maintenance. Here’s what I want to debate - how you feel about people here having to not only overcome personal dysfunction concerning weight loss but also all the bad information out there about the “best way” to lose weight.
To explain - I know I came here because I needed a tool to help me lose weight. I was unsuccessful losing weight intuitively. My wife of 35 years has always been able to manage her weight. I always struggled. Once I started seriously using MFP my journey became manageable. I have a realistic calorie budget and I track calories to stay within that budget. Simple - but not easy.
I think what makes it hard for so many though is we here at MFP often have to convince folks to ignore all the *kitten* they read and hear. The weight loss industry is worth $66 Billion dollars according to a quick Google search. I also did a quick Google search using the key words “how to lose weight”. I assume that many folks that decide one day they want to regain control of their life might do the same. The first two pages of links all contained fundamentally flawed information (in my opinion). Almost none of the sites explained the need for a calorie deficit in order to lose weight. Almost all had something to sell.
So this is the situation I see here over and over. Folks come here because they want to lose weight. I believe they are sincere. The issue however is that most have a dysfunctional relationship with food or they wouldn’t be here. They also have a head full of bad information from what they have read or what they have been told. They have a lot to “unlearn.” Some folks here listen, change their thinking and succeed in reaching their goals. Others refuse to unlearn what they think to be true - they argue with the very people they asked to help them - because they can’t let go of the bad information put out there by the weight loss industry.
What do you think?
I think that is true of a lot of things in life. Anything in the media is not looking to help people; it is about making a profit. Big Business makes the commercials and ads. They do not make money telling people to eat let. Current society wants a quick fix and instant gratification and companies see that. Some people are open minded enough to listen to multiple sides of a story and make an educated decision. Some people are smart enough to know to back hearsay with science and facts. Others will only listen to what they want to hear and take that and run. Big Pharma doesn't making money fixing people, they make money treating symptoms.
If drug companies only make money from treating symptoms, how do you account for the fact that there are cures out there and available for sale? I've been "fixed" by drugs, I know people who have been "fixed" by drugs. Not everything is treating symptoms.
There are exceptions to the rule, but a majority of medications do not treat the root cause. They treat the symptoms to mask the real issue. And sometimes lead to other issues requiring more medications. While I do believe, in some cases, medications are necessary, oftentimes doctors are too willing and quick to prescribe drugs to fix issues which would better be fixed by lifestyle changes.
For medications that treat symptoms, do you think there are cures for those conditions that are somehow being suppressed?
In some instances, we treat the symptoms because that is what we currently know how to do. There is no cure currently available (unless you believe that drug companies have discovered cures and are hiding them for some conditions while releasing them for others).
When it comes to drugs for conditions that could be treated by lifestyle changes, doctors are often doing what they can to manage the health of people who *refuse* to make lifestyle changes. To think otherwise, we'd have to decide that people are genuinely unaware of how their lifestyle interacts with things like high cholesterol, type 2 diabetes, high blood pressure, and risk for certain cancers. People taking these drugs often have had the chance to make lifestyle changes and *didn't*, for whatever reason. Doctors can't force people to lose weight, they're doing the best they can to help people who are on a certain path. If someone is overweight for years and then develops conditions that are related for that, a doctor is ethically *obligated* to be quick to prescribe drugs to help them. To withhold the drugs to manage the symptoms would be a violation of their oath.
Clearly I have hit a nerve with you, which that was not my intention. I am by no means a doctor. I can only speak from experience involving my parents and other relatives. Poor eating habits run in my family. While I do agree that some people ignore the advice from doctors, I do feel like the generic response to patients to "lose weight for your health" is not nearly enough. Those patients are not provided the proper resources to do so, nor are they educated enough on the issue. The quick fix is take this medication for your heart/diabetes/cholesterol/whatever else.
As far as cures for conditions being suppressed, I really hope that is not the case, but I cannot say for sure.
You didn't hit a nerve, I'm debating (this is the debate area).
What resources do you think your family members needed to lose weight?
Even if they had the resources made available, doctors are ethically obligated to provide a "fix" while people are attempting to adjust their lifestyle. Letting conditions like type 2 diabetes or high blood pressure persist untreated while people are trying to lose weight wouldn't be compatible with the best interests of the patients. Given that we know how hard it is even for highly motivated people to lose weight and keep it off, what would you have doctors do in this situation?
First step would be being referred to a nutritionist.
I am not faulting the doctors for the patients not losing weight. There is a lot of misinformation out there and doctors will not always know what the patient is aware of.
My point exactly: it isn't the fault of the doctors or "big pharma" that many medications treat symptoms instead of curing conditions. Health care is working with what people are willing to do. If a patient doesn't open up that they have no idea how to lose weight, how is a doctor supposed to know that a nutritionist (or, ideally, an RD) is necessary? At what point do people own telling their doctor that they don't know how to achieve a healthy body weight?
6 -
I think everyone is different and needs to find their own path.
Yes, I've been active recently on the boards, but I had lost over 200 lbs before I started here and used this to complete my journey, and had lost over 240 lbs before I started looking at the boards. I had been to a diet and fitness program years ago. I highly recommend that to someone who has a long struggle ahead. I think without that knowledge, this recent success would never have happened. It took years for me to adopt much of what I learned, but now I have and it's working.
For someone else, they may need a formal plan with other people to talk to to help. Some work best alone. Some need bits and pieces. Too many programs try to sell themselves as the ultimate solution, and I think many are some, and they all aren't for everyone.
That sentence got away from me there....4 -
bigbandjohn wrote: »I think everyone is different and needs to find their own path.
Yes, I've been active recently on the boards, but I had lost over 200 lbs before I started here and used this to complete my journey, and had lost over 240 lbs before I started looking at the boards. I had been to a diet and fitness program years ago. I highly recommend that to someone who has a long struggle ahead. I think without that knowledge, this recent success would never have happened. It took years for me to adopt much of what I learned, but now I have and it's working.
For someone else, they may need a formal plan with other people to talk to to help. Some work best alone. Some need bits and pieces. Too many programs try to sell themselves as the ultimate solution, and I think many are some, and they all aren't for everyone.
That sentence got away from me there....
This is true. I think that those of us that have successfully lost weight have probably tried many things *without success* including some things that probably worked well for other people. It's the individual nature of the process that can make it so difficult to find what works.
(Note: Obviously, it's a calorie deficit for everyone . . . but different people may need different techniques to make this sustainable and different methods for continuing to eat the right amount once we are maintaining).0 -
Cassandraw3 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Cassandraw3 wrote: »garystrickland357 wrote: »I’ve been around MFP now for a while (not as long as some) and have successfully lost over 75 pounds. Now I’m adjusting to maintenance. Here’s what I want to debate - how you feel about people here having to not only overcome personal dysfunction concerning weight loss but also all the bad information out there about the “best way” to lose weight.
To explain - I know I came here because I needed a tool to help me lose weight. I was unsuccessful losing weight intuitively. My wife of 35 years has always been able to manage her weight. I always struggled. Once I started seriously using MFP my journey became manageable. I have a realistic calorie budget and I track calories to stay within that budget. Simple - but not easy.
I think what makes it hard for so many though is we here at MFP often have to convince folks to ignore all the *kitten* they read and hear. The weight loss industry is worth $66 Billion dollars according to a quick Google search. I also did a quick Google search using the key words “how to lose weight”. I assume that many folks that decide one day they want to regain control of their life might do the same. The first two pages of links all contained fundamentally flawed information (in my opinion). Almost none of the sites explained the need for a calorie deficit in order to lose weight. Almost all had something to sell.
So this is the situation I see here over and over. Folks come here because they want to lose weight. I believe they are sincere. The issue however is that most have a dysfunctional relationship with food or they wouldn’t be here. They also have a head full of bad information from what they have read or what they have been told. They have a lot to “unlearn.” Some folks here listen, change their thinking and succeed in reaching their goals. Others refuse to unlearn what they think to be true - they argue with the very people they asked to help them - because they can’t let go of the bad information put out there by the weight loss industry.
What do you think?
I think that is true of a lot of things in life. Anything in the media is not looking to help people; it is about making a profit. Big Business makes the commercials and ads. They do not make money telling people to eat let. Current society wants a quick fix and instant gratification and companies see that. Some people are open minded enough to listen to multiple sides of a story and make an educated decision. Some people are smart enough to know to back hearsay with science and facts. Others will only listen to what they want to hear and take that and run. Big Pharma doesn't making money fixing people, they make money treating symptoms.
If drug companies only make money from treating symptoms, how do you account for the fact that there are cures out there and available for sale? I've been "fixed" by drugs, I know people who have been "fixed" by drugs. Not everything is treating symptoms.
There are exceptions to the rule, but a majority of medications do not treat the root cause. They treat the symptoms to mask the real issue. And sometimes lead to other issues requiring more medications. While I do believe, in some cases, medications are necessary, oftentimes doctors are too willing and quick to prescribe drugs to fix issues which would better be fixed by lifestyle changes.
In many cases lifestyle changes are part of managing chronic conditions and won't reverse them. There are a few conditions where losing weight and starting exercise will indeed totally take care of a medical condition, but this certainly isn't true of a vast majority of medical issues, especially chronic medical issues where genetics might play a factor.
In my experience, doctors do recommend lifestyle interventions. The problem is getting people to comply with them. I was always asked about my activity levels and my doctor did talk to me about my weight when I was obese.
I consider weight management and exercise integral parts of my health management. But I still need quite a few medications because of I have chronic conditions that require their usage.
6 -
janejellyroll wrote: »Cassandraw3 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Cassandraw3 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Cassandraw3 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Cassandraw3 wrote: »garystrickland357 wrote: »I’ve been around MFP now for a while (not as long as some) and have successfully lost over 75 pounds. Now I’m adjusting to maintenance. Here’s what I want to debate - how you feel about people here having to not only overcome personal dysfunction concerning weight loss but also all the bad information out there about the “best way” to lose weight.
To explain - I know I came here because I needed a tool to help me lose weight. I was unsuccessful losing weight intuitively. My wife of 35 years has always been able to manage her weight. I always struggled. Once I started seriously using MFP my journey became manageable. I have a realistic calorie budget and I track calories to stay within that budget. Simple - but not easy.
I think what makes it hard for so many though is we here at MFP often have to convince folks to ignore all the *kitten* they read and hear. The weight loss industry is worth $66 Billion dollars according to a quick Google search. I also did a quick Google search using the key words “how to lose weight”. I assume that many folks that decide one day they want to regain control of their life might do the same. The first two pages of links all contained fundamentally flawed information (in my opinion). Almost none of the sites explained the need for a calorie deficit in order to lose weight. Almost all had something to sell.
So this is the situation I see here over and over. Folks come here because they want to lose weight. I believe they are sincere. The issue however is that most have a dysfunctional relationship with food or they wouldn’t be here. They also have a head full of bad information from what they have read or what they have been told. They have a lot to “unlearn.” Some folks here listen, change their thinking and succeed in reaching their goals. Others refuse to unlearn what they think to be true - they argue with the very people they asked to help them - because they can’t let go of the bad information put out there by the weight loss industry.
What do you think?
I think that is true of a lot of things in life. Anything in the media is not looking to help people; it is about making a profit. Big Business makes the commercials and ads. They do not make money telling people to eat let. Current society wants a quick fix and instant gratification and companies see that. Some people are open minded enough to listen to multiple sides of a story and make an educated decision. Some people are smart enough to know to back hearsay with science and facts. Others will only listen to what they want to hear and take that and run. Big Pharma doesn't making money fixing people, they make money treating symptoms.
If drug companies only make money from treating symptoms, how do you account for the fact that there are cures out there and available for sale? I've been "fixed" by drugs, I know people who have been "fixed" by drugs. Not everything is treating symptoms.
There are exceptions to the rule, but a majority of medications do not treat the root cause. They treat the symptoms to mask the real issue. And sometimes lead to other issues requiring more medications. While I do believe, in some cases, medications are necessary, oftentimes doctors are too willing and quick to prescribe drugs to fix issues which would better be fixed by lifestyle changes.
For medications that treat symptoms, do you think there are cures for those conditions that are somehow being suppressed?
In some instances, we treat the symptoms because that is what we currently know how to do. There is no cure currently available (unless you believe that drug companies have discovered cures and are hiding them for some conditions while releasing them for others).
When it comes to drugs for conditions that could be treated by lifestyle changes, doctors are often doing what they can to manage the health of people who *refuse* to make lifestyle changes. To think otherwise, we'd have to decide that people are genuinely unaware of how their lifestyle interacts with things like high cholesterol, type 2 diabetes, high blood pressure, and risk for certain cancers. People taking these drugs often have had the chance to make lifestyle changes and *didn't*, for whatever reason. Doctors can't force people to lose weight, they're doing the best they can to help people who are on a certain path. If someone is overweight for years and then develops conditions that are related for that, a doctor is ethically *obligated* to be quick to prescribe drugs to help them. To withhold the drugs to manage the symptoms would be a violation of their oath.
Clearly I have hit a nerve with you, which that was not my intention. I am by no means a doctor. I can only speak from experience involving my parents and other relatives. Poor eating habits run in my family. While I do agree that some people ignore the advice from doctors, I do feel like the generic response to patients to "lose weight for your health" is not nearly enough. Those patients are not provided the proper resources to do so, nor are they educated enough on the issue. The quick fix is take this medication for your heart/diabetes/cholesterol/whatever else.
As far as cures for conditions being suppressed, I really hope that is not the case, but I cannot say for sure.
You didn't hit a nerve, I'm debating (this is the debate area).
What resources do you think your family members needed to lose weight?
Even if they had the resources made available, doctors are ethically obligated to provide a "fix" while people are attempting to adjust their lifestyle. Letting conditions like type 2 diabetes or high blood pressure persist untreated while people are trying to lose weight wouldn't be compatible with the best interests of the patients. Given that we know how hard it is even for highly motivated people to lose weight and keep it off, what would you have doctors do in this situation?
First step would be being referred to a nutritionist.
I am not faulting the doctors for the patients not losing weight. There is a lot of misinformation out there and doctors will not always know what the patient is aware of.
My point exactly: it isn't the fault of the doctors or "big pharma" that many medications treat symptoms instead of curing conditions. Health care is working with what people are willing to do. If a patient doesn't open up that they have no idea how to lose weight, how is a doctor supposed to know that a nutritionist (or, ideally, an RD) is necessary? At what point do people own telling their doctor that they don't know how to achieve a healthy body weight?
How many people do you know that will willing admit they don't know something? I think it is part of the doctor's responsibility to make sure the patient has all resources needed. Any time something is prescribed that is diet/obesity related, it should be common practice for them to be referred to a specialist.
And you cannot say big pharma is completely innocent. Look at any commercial break. They should not advertise medications.4 -
Cassandraw3 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Cassandraw3 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Cassandraw3 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Cassandraw3 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Cassandraw3 wrote: »garystrickland357 wrote: »I’ve been around MFP now for a while (not as long as some) and have successfully lost over 75 pounds. Now I’m adjusting to maintenance. Here’s what I want to debate - how you feel about people here having to not only overcome personal dysfunction concerning weight loss but also all the bad information out there about the “best way” to lose weight.
To explain - I know I came here because I needed a tool to help me lose weight. I was unsuccessful losing weight intuitively. My wife of 35 years has always been able to manage her weight. I always struggled. Once I started seriously using MFP my journey became manageable. I have a realistic calorie budget and I track calories to stay within that budget. Simple - but not easy.
I think what makes it hard for so many though is we here at MFP often have to convince folks to ignore all the *kitten* they read and hear. The weight loss industry is worth $66 Billion dollars according to a quick Google search. I also did a quick Google search using the key words “how to lose weight”. I assume that many folks that decide one day they want to regain control of their life might do the same. The first two pages of links all contained fundamentally flawed information (in my opinion). Almost none of the sites explained the need for a calorie deficit in order to lose weight. Almost all had something to sell.
So this is the situation I see here over and over. Folks come here because they want to lose weight. I believe they are sincere. The issue however is that most have a dysfunctional relationship with food or they wouldn’t be here. They also have a head full of bad information from what they have read or what they have been told. They have a lot to “unlearn.” Some folks here listen, change their thinking and succeed in reaching their goals. Others refuse to unlearn what they think to be true - they argue with the very people they asked to help them - because they can’t let go of the bad information put out there by the weight loss industry.
What do you think?
I think that is true of a lot of things in life. Anything in the media is not looking to help people; it is about making a profit. Big Business makes the commercials and ads. They do not make money telling people to eat let. Current society wants a quick fix and instant gratification and companies see that. Some people are open minded enough to listen to multiple sides of a story and make an educated decision. Some people are smart enough to know to back hearsay with science and facts. Others will only listen to what they want to hear and take that and run. Big Pharma doesn't making money fixing people, they make money treating symptoms.
If drug companies only make money from treating symptoms, how do you account for the fact that there are cures out there and available for sale? I've been "fixed" by drugs, I know people who have been "fixed" by drugs. Not everything is treating symptoms.
There are exceptions to the rule, but a majority of medications do not treat the root cause. They treat the symptoms to mask the real issue. And sometimes lead to other issues requiring more medications. While I do believe, in some cases, medications are necessary, oftentimes doctors are too willing and quick to prescribe drugs to fix issues which would better be fixed by lifestyle changes.
For medications that treat symptoms, do you think there are cures for those conditions that are somehow being suppressed?
In some instances, we treat the symptoms because that is what we currently know how to do. There is no cure currently available (unless you believe that drug companies have discovered cures and are hiding them for some conditions while releasing them for others).
When it comes to drugs for conditions that could be treated by lifestyle changes, doctors are often doing what they can to manage the health of people who *refuse* to make lifestyle changes. To think otherwise, we'd have to decide that people are genuinely unaware of how their lifestyle interacts with things like high cholesterol, type 2 diabetes, high blood pressure, and risk for certain cancers. People taking these drugs often have had the chance to make lifestyle changes and *didn't*, for whatever reason. Doctors can't force people to lose weight, they're doing the best they can to help people who are on a certain path. If someone is overweight for years and then develops conditions that are related for that, a doctor is ethically *obligated* to be quick to prescribe drugs to help them. To withhold the drugs to manage the symptoms would be a violation of their oath.
Clearly I have hit a nerve with you, which that was not my intention. I am by no means a doctor. I can only speak from experience involving my parents and other relatives. Poor eating habits run in my family. While I do agree that some people ignore the advice from doctors, I do feel like the generic response to patients to "lose weight for your health" is not nearly enough. Those patients are not provided the proper resources to do so, nor are they educated enough on the issue. The quick fix is take this medication for your heart/diabetes/cholesterol/whatever else.
As far as cures for conditions being suppressed, I really hope that is not the case, but I cannot say for sure.
You didn't hit a nerve, I'm debating (this is the debate area).
What resources do you think your family members needed to lose weight?
Even if they had the resources made available, doctors are ethically obligated to provide a "fix" while people are attempting to adjust their lifestyle. Letting conditions like type 2 diabetes or high blood pressure persist untreated while people are trying to lose weight wouldn't be compatible with the best interests of the patients. Given that we know how hard it is even for highly motivated people to lose weight and keep it off, what would you have doctors do in this situation?
First step would be being referred to a nutritionist.
I am not faulting the doctors for the patients not losing weight. There is a lot of misinformation out there and doctors will not always know what the patient is aware of.
My point exactly: it isn't the fault of the doctors or "big pharma" that many medications treat symptoms instead of curing conditions. Health care is working with what people are willing to do. If a patient doesn't open up that they have no idea how to lose weight, how is a doctor supposed to know that a nutritionist (or, ideally, an RD) is necessary? At what point do people own telling their doctor that they don't know how to achieve a healthy body weight?
How many people do you know that will willing admit they don't know something? I think it is part of the doctor's responsibility to make sure the patient has all resources needed. Any time something is prescribed that is diet/obesity related, it should be common practice for them to be referred to a specialist.
And you cannot say big pharma is completely innocent. Look at any commercial break. They should not advertise medications.
Frankly, everyone who has ever been in high school knows how weight management works.
We then get out in the world and bombarded by the diet industry and want a magic fix.
I think you're going a bit too far in absolving your family into placing blame elsewhere. People know the basics of a healthy diet and energy balance. They just want something easier.9 -
Cassandraw3 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Cassandraw3 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Cassandraw3 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Cassandraw3 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Cassandraw3 wrote: »garystrickland357 wrote: »I’ve been around MFP now for a while (not as long as some) and have successfully lost over 75 pounds. Now I’m adjusting to maintenance. Here’s what I want to debate - how you feel about people here having to not only overcome personal dysfunction concerning weight loss but also all the bad information out there about the “best way” to lose weight.
To explain - I know I came here because I needed a tool to help me lose weight. I was unsuccessful losing weight intuitively. My wife of 35 years has always been able to manage her weight. I always struggled. Once I started seriously using MFP my journey became manageable. I have a realistic calorie budget and I track calories to stay within that budget. Simple - but not easy.
I think what makes it hard for so many though is we here at MFP often have to convince folks to ignore all the *kitten* they read and hear. The weight loss industry is worth $66 Billion dollars according to a quick Google search. I also did a quick Google search using the key words “how to lose weight”. I assume that many folks that decide one day they want to regain control of their life might do the same. The first two pages of links all contained fundamentally flawed information (in my opinion). Almost none of the sites explained the need for a calorie deficit in order to lose weight. Almost all had something to sell.
So this is the situation I see here over and over. Folks come here because they want to lose weight. I believe they are sincere. The issue however is that most have a dysfunctional relationship with food or they wouldn’t be here. They also have a head full of bad information from what they have read or what they have been told. They have a lot to “unlearn.” Some folks here listen, change their thinking and succeed in reaching their goals. Others refuse to unlearn what they think to be true - they argue with the very people they asked to help them - because they can’t let go of the bad information put out there by the weight loss industry.
What do you think?
I think that is true of a lot of things in life. Anything in the media is not looking to help people; it is about making a profit. Big Business makes the commercials and ads. They do not make money telling people to eat let. Current society wants a quick fix and instant gratification and companies see that. Some people are open minded enough to listen to multiple sides of a story and make an educated decision. Some people are smart enough to know to back hearsay with science and facts. Others will only listen to what they want to hear and take that and run. Big Pharma doesn't making money fixing people, they make money treating symptoms.
If drug companies only make money from treating symptoms, how do you account for the fact that there are cures out there and available for sale? I've been "fixed" by drugs, I know people who have been "fixed" by drugs. Not everything is treating symptoms.
There are exceptions to the rule, but a majority of medications do not treat the root cause. They treat the symptoms to mask the real issue. And sometimes lead to other issues requiring more medications. While I do believe, in some cases, medications are necessary, oftentimes doctors are too willing and quick to prescribe drugs to fix issues which would better be fixed by lifestyle changes.
For medications that treat symptoms, do you think there are cures for those conditions that are somehow being suppressed?
In some instances, we treat the symptoms because that is what we currently know how to do. There is no cure currently available (unless you believe that drug companies have discovered cures and are hiding them for some conditions while releasing them for others).
When it comes to drugs for conditions that could be treated by lifestyle changes, doctors are often doing what they can to manage the health of people who *refuse* to make lifestyle changes. To think otherwise, we'd have to decide that people are genuinely unaware of how their lifestyle interacts with things like high cholesterol, type 2 diabetes, high blood pressure, and risk for certain cancers. People taking these drugs often have had the chance to make lifestyle changes and *didn't*, for whatever reason. Doctors can't force people to lose weight, they're doing the best they can to help people who are on a certain path. If someone is overweight for years and then develops conditions that are related for that, a doctor is ethically *obligated* to be quick to prescribe drugs to help them. To withhold the drugs to manage the symptoms would be a violation of their oath.
Clearly I have hit a nerve with you, which that was not my intention. I am by no means a doctor. I can only speak from experience involving my parents and other relatives. Poor eating habits run in my family. While I do agree that some people ignore the advice from doctors, I do feel like the generic response to patients to "lose weight for your health" is not nearly enough. Those patients are not provided the proper resources to do so, nor are they educated enough on the issue. The quick fix is take this medication for your heart/diabetes/cholesterol/whatever else.
As far as cures for conditions being suppressed, I really hope that is not the case, but I cannot say for sure.
You didn't hit a nerve, I'm debating (this is the debate area).
What resources do you think your family members needed to lose weight?
Even if they had the resources made available, doctors are ethically obligated to provide a "fix" while people are attempting to adjust their lifestyle. Letting conditions like type 2 diabetes or high blood pressure persist untreated while people are trying to lose weight wouldn't be compatible with the best interests of the patients. Given that we know how hard it is even for highly motivated people to lose weight and keep it off, what would you have doctors do in this situation?
First step would be being referred to a nutritionist.
I am not faulting the doctors for the patients not losing weight. There is a lot of misinformation out there and doctors will not always know what the patient is aware of.
My point exactly: it isn't the fault of the doctors or "big pharma" that many medications treat symptoms instead of curing conditions. Health care is working with what people are willing to do. If a patient doesn't open up that they have no idea how to lose weight, how is a doctor supposed to know that a nutritionist (or, ideally, an RD) is necessary? At what point do people own telling their doctor that they don't know how to achieve a healthy body weight?
How many people do you know that will willing admit they don't know something? I think it is part of the doctor's responsibility to make sure the patient has all resources needed. Any time something is prescribed that is diet/obesity related, it should be common practice for them to be referred to a specialist.
And you cannot say big pharma is completely innocent. Look at any commercial break. They should not advertise medications.
I tell my doctor if I don't understand their instructions or know how to do what they're recommending. If other people don't, fault doesn't completely rest with the doctor.
Yes, doctors should *try* to ensure that people understand. But if someone can't communicate well with their doctor, why are you so sure that they'll communicate better with an RD?
Nobody is saying that "big pharma" is "completely innocent" (I'm not even sure what that means in this context). If you want to change the conversation and talk about ads, we can do that. But this conversation between you and I began with your claim that they made money by managing symptoms, not curing people. My point is, they manage symptoms because that is the best method for keeping someone healthy. In many cases, managing symptoms is the most ethical choice because it is the best way to ensure the health of the patient within the context of a) what medicine is currently capable of and b) what a patient is willing to do in terms of lifestyle changes.
Would you have a doctor withhold medicine that would manage symptoms?4 -
garystrickland357 wrote: »I’ve been around MFP now for a while (not as long as some) and have successfully lost over 75 pounds. Now I’m adjusting to maintenance. Here’s what I want to debate - how you feel about people here having to not only overcome personal dysfunction concerning weight loss but also all the bad information out there about the “best way” to lose weight.
To explain - I know I came here because I needed a tool to help me lose weight. I was unsuccessful losing weight intuitively. My wife of 35 years has always been able to manage her weight. I always struggled. Once I started seriously using MFP my journey became manageable. I have a realistic calorie budget and I track calories to stay within that budget. Simple - but not easy.
I think what makes it hard for so many though is we here at MFP often have to convince folks to ignore all the *kitten* they read and hear. The weight loss industry is worth $66 Billion dollars according to a quick Google search. I also did a quick Google search using the key words “how to lose weight”. I assume that many folks that decide one day they want to regain control of their life might do the same. The first two pages of links all contained fundamentally flawed information (in my opinion). Almost none of the sites explained the need for a calorie deficit in order to lose weight. Almost all had something to sell.
So this is the situation I see here over and over. Folks come here because they want to lose weight. I believe they are sincere. The issue however is that most have a dysfunctional relationship with food or they wouldn’t be here. They also have a head full of bad information from what they have read or what they have been told. They have a lot to “unlearn.” Some folks here listen, change their thinking and succeed in reaching their goals. Others refuse to unlearn what they think to be true - they argue with the very people they asked to help them - because they can’t let go of the bad information put out there by the weight loss industry.
What do you think?
I think one of the inherent issues for people who have been here for awhile is that they forget that people who are new here view everyone in the community as a total stranger. Why would they listen to someone they don't know and have no reason to trust, when the trusted individuals in their lives (friends, family, coworkers, perhaps even people in medical professions) are telling them something else?
Why get frustrated by that? It's completely normal. It's also completely normal for people not to sit around reading scientific studies or not to stay up to date on current practices in fields in which they don't work or study, so being frustrated with that doesn't make any sense either. Realistically, most people don't sit around reading scientific studies about anything unless they have a reason to, such as a job or school. NASA just landed a rover on Mars - how many people read an article about it via a news source, and didn't keep researching to get into the finer points of how and why all the stuff they did worked? I'm going to guess the percentage was somewhere in the high 90's, so I'm not sure why people are surprised when someone reads an article about diet and nutrition and just accepts what is says without delving into the related studies.
I know, I know, if they are trying to lose weight, they should research things, and find out more! They should want to know all this stuff and be able to back stuff up with science! They should have science for everything they say! Yeah, that's not reality. The majority of people don't whip out science in their daily interactions. Most people haven't had to cite a reference since they were in school. It's really not that surprising that people making general conversation in an online community aren't going to be backing up what they say with science, and that most of their information comes from articles they read in popular media. It's not a character flaw for which they need to be mocked or punished.
I find that if you really, genuinely want to help someone, you need to be willing to meet them where they are. That's just standard practice in the field of training and education - at the beginning, you assess what the person already knows and go from there. If all the person has been working from is what they read rolling across their facebook feed, you talk about why that information may be problematic, you don't berate them for not having better sources or not knowing the professional history of Dr. X. You don't shame them for posting and sharing where they are in the process in terms of knowledge just because they aren't at a certain level - and may never be, because again, none of us sit around reading scientific studies in areas which do not really interest us. True story.
One of the best ways to combat the misinformation is keep people engaged in a community where they can learn. To do that, you have to be welcoming and willing to let personal issues with the diet and fitness industry fall to the wayside in favor of helping someone. That requires accountability on the person dispensing the advice to be willing to do so in a manner than is going to help someone. If you are so tired of answering a question about whether ACV helps that you can't explain it in a way that isn't going to make the other person feel defensive or shamed for asking, the solution is to walk away and let someone else answer it, not give a clipped or snarky response and then blame the OP for the way you answered. All that does is send the message that the person was wrong for asking for help or trying to learn. And the woos? Woo-ing a post where the person asks whether what they read about ACV (or whatever) is true? Seriously? Nothing like a visual count of the number of people sending the message "you're stupid for asking this question, because duh, ACV (or whatever) doesn't work" to make people want to stick around and learn more.
People are coming here with all sorts of issues already that led to weight gain - work, stress, family obligations, medical issues, physical issues, mental health issues (some of which may be undiagnosed or for which they are not receiving treatment), relationship issues, financial problems - and likely they already feel kind of crappy about themselves. If they are posting a suggestion, it's because they want to help someone. That's a good thing. They are trying to reach out, they are trying to connect, they are trying to create support and accountability. They are still in a place where they have access to good information and can learn.
No, the information is not always going to be completely right. It's not the end of the world, they are not dispensing dangerous advice, the lurkers are not in danger because someone suggested ACV - because likely most people have already seen that suggestion elsewhere on the web - and the person does not need to be run off the forums because of it. Pepperidge Farm remembers when some of the long time posters here first came to the forums and insisted that IF was the way to go, or that eating clean was the key to weight loss, or that low carb was the devil (only to end up eating a low carb diet), or that Stronglifts 5x5 is the go-to recommended weight lifting program for absolutely everyone regardless of their goals or physical ability, and no, you shouldn't be using machines for resistance training. Where would they be if someone hadn't been willing to be patient with them, provide them information, and give them the opportunity to figure out what was helpful to them?15 -
People do not want to count calories. As soon as counting calories is mentioned the majority of people lose interest because they believe it is too difficult and time consuming. They would rather have someone tell them what food to eat and how much, or take a pill, or drink a shake, than work it out themselves. So they end up trying diet plans that don't suit them or their lifestyles, or are too restrictive on the foods they like so they give up on that one and try another one in an endless round of trying to find something sustainable.
Finding MFP was my lifesaver. I knew about calories, I knew I needed to eat less of them. (my idea of a diet was to cut to 900 a day, yeah I know
)
What I did not know was all the stuff I found out about by reading the forums. The forums were what put me on the right track and keep me there now.
Things like the difference between BMR and TDEE and how to use it to find out how many calories I should cut to make a reasonable deficit. Like (shock horror) you can eat all the foods you like as long as it fits your calorie goal. How lifting maintains your muscle mass in deficit. How weight fluctuates daily and why. How to be realistic about how much weight you should be losing a week. So many little things that helped to keep me on track. But those things came over time and listening to REAL people who had struggled and succeeded.
We all want to lose weight fast so anything that promises a quick fix is terribly appealing. I have wasted so much of my life and money chasing that dream.
I have found the solution, but when people ask me how and I mention calorie counting they lose interest almost immediately. Even a really close friend will not listen and it makes me so sad that she could be halfway to her goal by now but is still gaining and saying "but I don't eat that much, I don't understand why I can't lose weight"
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