USA vs. Europe, NY Times

janejellyroll

lemurcat2 wrote: »

shaumom wrote: »

janejellyroll wrote: »

...American packaged food comes in all kinds of forms and tastes. This is a bizarre generalization.

Actually...I would agree with this one, and I'm an American. I had a medical issue for a while where I was having bad allergic reactions but we didn't know to what. Ended up having to make all my own foods from very fresh products, couldn't even have grains or dried spices. And when I was trying foods again that were packaged - yeah, blech. I honestly thought something new had been done to the foods I tried, because there was so much bitterness or this odd chemical-aftertaste. And then finally did some research and found out that, no, it's just what we do to our packaged food. All of it.

Because while there may be variety in the actual food itself, there is a huge homogeneity in the chemicals use ON the food. Most grains, for example, have certain chemicals used on them during storage, like insecticides or anti-fungals. Most processing lines use similar soaps and cleansers, and most packages have some similar linings because it's food safe and the cheapest. Most packaged foods use one out of only a small list of preservatives or anti-bacterials/anti-fungals on them. Most foods contain a small number of ingredients that have a lot of chemicals used in processing (for example, corn starch and corn syrup both have sulfites used in their processing, during the wet corn milling).

And if you don't eat these all the time? You CAN taste these. And it absolutely is bitter or has odd taste that I can only describe as 'chemical.' Kind of like how some toilets have that blue water and it smells chemical - you couldn't say WHAT chemical, but it's noticeable, you know?

I rarely eat packaged foods. I sometimes eat oats (Bob's Red Mill, usually), I sometimes eat dried pasta (imported from Italy), I sometimes eat canned tomatoes (Italian or American, no sugar added, because that's weird), I buy dry beans and lentils, and I sometimes buy canned beans/chickpeas. I buy cottage cheese and yogurt from the farmers market more often than not (although sometimes Fage yogurt). (I buy eggs from a farm too.) I get tofu/tempeh, but it's non GMO (because I buy it at WF more than because I care).

I buy olive oil, vinegars, and spices.

Hmm. I do buy smoked salmon, and frozen fruits and veg.

Despite this, when I do have something packaged, I don't perceive bitterness or a chemical aftertaste at all. At least not with the foods I choose. (I like a lot of greens some people call bitter, so maybe I just wouldn't notice.)

This is my experience too. I don't notice bitterness in my packaged foods (mostly grains, beans, pasta, and canned foods like tomatoes). It may be there, but my taste buds aren't sensitive enough to pick it up. My husband is very quick to pick up on bitter tastes and I don't recall him ever complaining about it either (and he tends to eat more pre-made stuff like cereal and crackers).

Fuzzipeg

I was referring to problematic proteins like gluten. Most of the foods (wonderful foods) mentioned by jonewe05, above are generally eliminated from my diet because of their salicylate and/or histamine content, unless I live on dietary enzymes and more, must not advertise, giggle. (Salicylate is used by plants to protect themselves from moulds and mildews. In me high levels contributed to poor lung function, I discovered in one natural history programme that the very fine cells which take our oxygen from the air fall into the mould or mildew categories, which because of my high unresolved salicylate levels suffered extreme stress. Histamine has some uses in our bodies, I can't remember which, I'm working on being able to better eliminate it!) Why do our bodies have to be so complicated.

Aaron_K123

GaleHawkins wrote: »

I thought metaphysics was a branch of philosophy and it was not what I was talking about but was referring to quantum mechanics that seems to explain the existence of the placebo effect.

https://sciencemag.org/news/2017/10/quantum-experiment-space-confirms-reality-what-you-make-it-0

This would explain the view that everything that we think of as real today was thought/spoken into existence. One drug stock crashed this week when their medicine turned out to be no more effective than the placebo effect in controlled double blind clinical trials. The placebo effect does not come from a chemical so it has to come from the mind it would seem to me. You Are The Placebo by Joe Dispenza (2014) is a good book about research into what the placebo effect seems to be about that Aaron I expect you might find interesting.

Delayed choice quantum experiments do not indicate that reality morphs to your wishes. No physicist would claim that. Placebo effects are most likely just due to the fact that stress can be debilitating or aggravate certain conditions and worrying that you have no way of treating the condition is stressful...giving someone a sugar pill can give them a false sense that they are actively engaged in fixing their problems which can relieve stress which can have some actual positive benefit. If an actual drug is only as effective as a sugar pill then any effect it has is more due to the person just thinking they are getting treated then them actually being treated...in which case it doesn't make any sense to spend the effort to produce that drug. That does not mean that if you wish yourself to be cured of an infectious disease that you will be cured and delayed choice quantum mechanical experiments don't mean that either.

You are turning something objective about reality (quantum mechanical effects) and something psychological (placebo) and turning into some sort of mystical ability to control reality with your mind....that is taking it to far.

Aaron_K123

Fuzzipeg wrote: »

I was referring to problematic proteins like gluten. Most of the foods (wonderful foods) mentioned by jonewe05, above are generally eliminated from my diet because of their salicylate and/or histamine content, unless I live on dietary enzymes and more, must not advertise, giggle. (Salicylate is used by plants to protect themselves from moulds and mildews. In me high levels contributed to poor lung function, I discovered in one natural history programme that the very fine cells which take our oxygen from the air fall into the mould or mildew categories, which because of my high unresolved salicylate levels suffered extreme stress. Histamine has some uses in our bodies, I can't remember which, I'm working on being able to better eliminate it!) Why do our bodies have to be so complicated.

gluten is only "problematic" for people with celiac disease. Same as lactose is only "problematic" for those who are lactose intolerant and peanut oil is only "problematic" for those with peanut allergies. The rest of your post is just confusing so no comment there.

To me it sounds like you probably just have a salicylate allergy and were probably told at some point to avoid foods that contain high levels of salicylic acid in order to reduce the chance of an immunopathological inflammatory response. I assume you were also told to avoid aspirin?

Inflammatory responses and allergenic inflammation in general are controlled by cytokine networks and histamine, which is released by your own mast cells to induce an inflammatory response to deal with a percieved injury, rushing blood to the area. In the case of allergies this is pathological, or an immunopathology, where you get a type 1 hypersensitivity based on induction of this system from an allergen rather than injury resulting in uncontrolled swelling and inflammation causing potential tissue damage or obstruction of blood vessles or airways. Using drugs to block histamine receptors can help abrogate the potential deleterious effects of unwanted inflamation due to an allergic reaction. Neither salicylate or histamine are "bad". If you somehow snapped your fingers and eliminated all histamine from your body and no longer produced it the result would be that your innate immune system would no longer function which would probably result in your death...histamine isn't a bad thing. Histamine is something your body produces so there is no reason to avoid histamine in your diet...if a doctor mentioned anti-histamines to you it is a way of modifying your bodies own immune response reaction to an allergen not telling you to somehow avoid eating histamine which doesn't even make sense.

I'd advise you to not try to self-diagnose or make decisions about your medical needs on your own...consult with doctors. Also understand that if you do suffer from some sort of allergy that doesn't mean that whatever induces your allergy is "bad" or somehow something everyone should endevour to avoid.

Keto_Vampire

@galehawkins notorious for knowing nothing about statistics...have some internet tomatoes 🍅🍅🍅🍅🍅🍅.
For this purpose/use, GMO is perfectly fine...

GaleHawkins

Aaron_K123 wrote: »

GaleHawkins wrote: »

I thought metaphysics was a branch of philosophy and it was not what I was talking about but was referring to quantum mechanics that seems to explain the existence of the placebo effect.

https://sciencemag.org/news/2017/10/quantum-experiment-space-confirms-reality-what-you-make-it-0

This would explain the view that everything that we think of as real today was thought/spoken into existence. One drug stock crashed this week when their medicine turned out to be no more effective than the placebo effect in controlled double blind clinical trials. The placebo effect does not come from a chemical so it has to come from the mind it would seem to me. You Are The Placebo by Joe Dispenza (2014) is a good book about research into what the placebo effect seems to be about that Aaron I expect you might find interesting.

Delayed choice quantum experiments do not indicate that reality morphs to your wishes. No physicist would claim that. Placebo effects are most likely just due to the fact that stress can be debilitating or aggravate certain conditions and worrying that you have no way of treating the condition is stressful...giving someone a sugar pill can give them a false sense that they are actively engaged in fixing their problems which can relieve stress which can have some actual positive benefit. If an actual drug is only as effective as a sugar pill then any effect it has is more due to the person just thinking they are getting treated then them actually being treated...in which case it doesn't make any sense to spend the effort to produce that drug. That does not mean that if you wish yourself to be cured of an infectious disease that you will be cured and delayed choice quantum mechanical experiments don't mean that either.

You are turning something objective about reality (quantum mechanical effects) and something psychological (placebo) and turning into some sort of mystical ability to control reality with your mind....that is taking it to far.

Aaron_K123 wrote: »

GaleHawkins wrote: »

I thought metaphysics was a branch of philosophy and it was not what I was talking about but was referring to quantum mechanics that seems to explain the existence of the placebo effect.

https://sciencemag.org/news/2017/10/quantum-experiment-space-confirms-reality-what-you-make-it-0

This would explain the view that everything that we think of as real today was thought/spoken into existence. One drug stock crashed this week when their medicine turned out to be no more effective than the placebo effect in controlled double blind clinical trials. The placebo effect does not come from a chemical so it has to come from the mind it would seem to me. You Are The Placebo by Joe Dispenza (2014) is a good book about research into what the placebo effect seems to be about that Aaron I expect you might find interesting.

Delayed choice quantum experiments do not indicate that reality morphs to your wishes. No physicist would claim that. Placebo effects are most likely just due to the fact that stress can be debilitating or aggravate certain conditions and worrying that you have no way of treating the condition is stressful...giving someone a sugar pill can give them a false sense that they are actively engaged in fixing their problems which can relieve stress which can have some actual positive benefit. If an actual drug is only as effective as a sugar pill then any effect it has is more due to the person just thinking they are getting treated then them actually being treated...in which case it doesn't make any sense to spend the effort to produce that drug. That does not mean that if you wish yourself to be cured of an infectious disease that you will be cured and delayed choice quantum mechanical experiments don't mean that either.

You are turning something objective about reality (quantum mechanical effects) and something psychological (placebo) and turning into some sort of mystical ability to control reality with your mind....that is taking it to far.

Aaron are you saying placebo effects are not real results?

Aaron_K123

GaleHawkins wrote: »

Aaron_K123 wrote: »

GaleHawkins wrote: »

I thought metaphysics was a branch of philosophy and it was not what I was talking about but was referring to quantum mechanics that seems to explain the existence of the placebo effect.

https://sciencemag.org/news/2017/10/quantum-experiment-space-confirms-reality-what-you-make-it-0

This would explain the view that everything that we think of as real today was thought/spoken into existence. One drug stock crashed this week when their medicine turned out to be no more effective than the placebo effect in controlled double blind clinical trials. The placebo effect does not come from a chemical so it has to come from the mind it would seem to me. You Are The Placebo by Joe Dispenza (2014) is a good book about research into what the placebo effect seems to be about that Aaron I expect you might find interesting.

Delayed choice quantum experiments do not indicate that reality morphs to your wishes. No physicist would claim that. Placebo effects are most likely just due to the fact that stress can be debilitating or aggravate certain conditions and worrying that you have no way of treating the condition is stressful...giving someone a sugar pill can give them a false sense that they are actively engaged in fixing their problems which can relieve stress which can have some actual positive benefit. If an actual drug is only as effective as a sugar pill then any effect it has is more due to the person just thinking they are getting treated then them actually being treated...in which case it doesn't make any sense to spend the effort to produce that drug. That does not mean that if you wish yourself to be cured of an infectious disease that you will be cured and delayed choice quantum mechanical experiments don't mean that either.

You are turning something objective about reality (quantum mechanical effects) and something psychological (placebo) and turning into some sort of mystical ability to control reality with your mind....that is taking it to far.

Aaron_K123 wrote: »

GaleHawkins wrote: »

I thought metaphysics was a branch of philosophy and it was not what I was talking about but was referring to quantum mechanics that seems to explain the existence of the placebo effect.

https://sciencemag.org/news/2017/10/quantum-experiment-space-confirms-reality-what-you-make-it-0

This would explain the view that everything that we think of as real today was thought/spoken into existence. One drug stock crashed this week when their medicine turned out to be no more effective than the placebo effect in controlled double blind clinical trials. The placebo effect does not come from a chemical so it has to come from the mind it would seem to me. You Are The Placebo by Joe Dispenza (2014) is a good book about research into what the placebo effect seems to be about that Aaron I expect you might find interesting.

Delayed choice quantum experiments do not indicate that reality morphs to your wishes. No physicist would claim that. Placebo effects are most likely just due to the fact that stress can be debilitating or aggravate certain conditions and worrying that you have no way of treating the condition is stressful...giving someone a sugar pill can give them a false sense that they are actively engaged in fixing their problems which can relieve stress which can have some actual positive benefit. If an actual drug is only as effective as a sugar pill then any effect it has is more due to the person just thinking they are getting treated then them actually being treated...in which case it doesn't make any sense to spend the effort to produce that drug. That does not mean that if you wish yourself to be cured of an infectious disease that you will be cured and delayed choice quantum mechanical experiments don't mean that either.

You are turning something objective about reality (quantum mechanical effects) and something psychological (placebo) and turning into some sort of mystical ability to control reality with your mind....that is taking it to far.

Aaron are you saying placebo effects are not real results?

No I am not saying that...not sure where you got that from. You seem to just not understand what I am saying either willfully or for whatever other reason and I'm not sure how else to say it.

If you spend 1 billion dollars on R and D to develop a drug and then spend more on production costs and the end result is a pill that has no more effect than a sugar pill then that drug is pretty much a waste of time and effort and shouldn't be used, after all why spend money producing a specific small molecule when a practically free sugar pill would do the same thing. The result you get from the placebo effect is a real result, just not a desirable one.

Placebo level effects are effects, but they are psychological and not a result of what is actually being administered. It is the bottom...the goal in drug development is to do better than that, otherwise you are wasting time and money.