Improve VO2Max
Replies
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For the next 4 weeks the only change I will make is to push my 60 min / week cardio average intensity from the green zone (75% MHR) to the yellow zone (85% MHR). So instead of 2 yellow, 2 green, and 3 blue per week it will be 4 yellows and 3 blue zones.
Did you get your true max heart rate yet?
If not, those zones are not accurate.1 -
I don't even pay attention to that number.
Most of my aerobic work is swimming. Can't measure it so my VO2max is always in the low range.
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I think my zones are just about right. We older people should not listen to young athletes.
Last Monday I did my resistance training but I cut the rest between sets. Normally I rest until my HR drops below 75% MHR. Then I do another set. Last Monday's average was 92% MHR (red zone). Normally I average 85% (yellow zone) over 30 min. First time in a over 2 years that I actually got gassed. I was sweating like a maniac. I definitely over did it.
Tuesday I did my normal yoga. Usually my average is 65% MHR (blue zone). That day it was in the green zone.
Wednesday I woke up with back pain. So I wasn't able to do anything for 3 days. Yesterday I did 30 min of cardio. Stayed in the green zone the whole time. Average was 75% MHR.
Today I did my resistance training but I went back to my old way of resting between sets. Average was 82% MHR. Much better.
I'm 63 years old. My tested HRmax is 180; 220 - 63 is 157 . . . 157 is just nicely into anaerobic, for me. If I believed age-based formulas, I'd be severely undertraining.
Your HRmax may be spot on the age estimate; I don't know. But age-based estimates are wrong for a significant fraction of people.
Heart rate increases during resistance training are primarily due to strain, not oxygen demand.
This has nothing to do with young athletes.
You're doing good stuff. Beneficial, no question.
Like @OldAssDude said, if you don't know your HRmax, you don't know what zone you're in. That's not an accusation or criticism, it's just a simple fact.
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I think my zones are just about right. We older people should not listen to young athletes.
Last Monday I did my resistance training but I cut the rest between sets. Normally I rest until my HR drops below 75% MHR. Then I do another set. Last Monday's average was 92% MHR (red zone). Normally I average 85% (yellow zone) over 30 min. First time in a over 2 years that I actually got gassed. I was sweating like a maniac. I definitely over did it.
Tuesday I did my normal yoga. Usually my average is 65% MHR (blue zone). That day it was in the green zone.
Wednesday I woke up with back pain. So I wasn't able to do anything for 3 days. Yesterday I did 30 min of cardio. Stayed in the green zone the whole time. Average was 75% MHR.
Today I did my resistance training but I went back to my old way of resting between sets. Average was 82% MHR. Much better.
Dude. I'm 61 years old.
My max heart rate is 159 according to the standard formula, but I have got it up to 170 several times.
You asked for advice.
People are giving you good advice.
You seem to be just ignoring it.6 -
I think my zones are just about right. We older people should not listen to young athletes.
Last Monday I did my resistance training but I cut the rest between sets. Normally I rest until my HR drops below 75% MHR. Then I do another set. Last Monday's average was 92% MHR (red zone). Normally I average 85% (yellow zone) over 30 min. First time in a over 2 years that I actually got gassed. I was sweating like a maniac. I definitely over did it.
Tuesday I did my normal yoga. Usually my average is 65% MHR (blue zone). That day it was in the green zone.
Wednesday I woke up with back pain. So I wasn't able to do anything for 3 days. Yesterday I did 30 min of cardio. Stayed in the green zone the whole time. Average was 75% MHR.
Today I did my resistance training but I went back to my old way of resting between sets. Average was 82% MHR. Much better.
Actually us old people should continue to learn, including learning from the younger generation.
Closing your mind to new knowledge is a sure fire way to mentally age before your time.
BTW - I'm another older "athlete" with a tested max HR quite different from what the basic formula predicts.
BTW2 - Your (assumed) HR zones and your HR have no relevance to whether your strength training is a good workout or not.5 -
53 here (almost 54) and my max is in the 180 range.
I keep thinking I need to get a chest strap that talks to my watch.1 -
Blue = low intensity (65% MaxHR). Green = moderate intensity (75% MaxHR). Yellow = hard intensity (85% MaxHR).
I exercise in zones. 30 min per day. 2 days in yellow (resistance), 2 days in green (cardio), and 3 days in blue (yoga).
My VO2Max is 32. As a 61 year old male this is considered "moderate". I'd like to get to 41 which is "elite" for my age and sex.
Will the above exericise program get me there?
A training plan for a race would probably help, or at least will improve other metrics (distance, average speed).
Conditions will affect the VO2 estimate, depending on how you're measuring it. (A running watch won't take wind speed and temperature into consideration, for instance, but this will certainly affect your effort...Garmin estimate for me tanks in winter and summer).
I doubt yoga or resistance training will do much/anything. 2x30minutes per week cardio is pretty minimal and probably won't do very much to improve it.2 -
...I think VO2max is mostly just looked at when trying to estimate/compare possible race times across different distances.. so not necessarily a metric to care that much about unless maybe training for a new race distance and selecting a goal pace.0
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I think my zones are just about right. We older people should not listen to young athletes.
Last Monday I did my resistance training but I cut the rest between sets. Normally I rest until my HR drops below 75% MHR. Then I do another set. Last Monday's average was 92% MHR (red zone). Normally I average 85% (yellow zone) over 30 min. First time in a over 2 years that I actually got gassed. I was sweating like a maniac. I definitely over did it.
Tuesday I did my normal yoga. Usually my average is 65% MHR (blue zone). That day it was in the green zone.
Wednesday I woke up with back pain. So I wasn't able to do anything for 3 days. Yesterday I did 30 min of cardio. Stayed in the green zone the whole time. Average was 75% MHR.
Today I did my resistance training but I went back to my old way of resting between sets. Average was 82% MHR. Much better.
It's funny because most of the people who are telling you that the age based numbers your using are not accurate "older people" (your words, not mine). Older, athletic, people. Never mind that I had a conversation with a bunch of "older people" last weekend about how they were planning on going to a lab to get their VO2 max and LT tested.
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I understand the physiology of what I'm doing. I also understand that the age based maximal heart rate formula for older people may not accurate. I had a stress echo done about 6 years ago my max heart rate was 166. Bruce Protocol.
The problem is that it's not really accurate for the vast majority of the population. There's a story in the NYTimes where it was reported that the formula is inaccurate for essentially everyone, including children. I'm pretty sure @AnnPT77 has mentioned either here or elsewhere (definitely elsewhere and more than once) that the people doing her cardiac stress test didn't allow her to actually get to her max HR, so I wouldn't be so fast to trust that unless it was in an athletic performance lab with the an end goal that didn't involve diagnosing you with X condition or monitoring your cardiac function for health reasons (as opposed to for athletic training reasons).2 -
Given that my measurements are accurate, my reduced exercise program has REDUCED my VO2Max. Before falling off the wagon and then getting back on last month but doing 30 min of cardio per week instead of the 4 hours I did before.
I was looking thru my exercise log on Polar Beat. On Aug 4 my VO2Max was 39 (very good). Then it went to 35 (good) on Sept 9th.
I fell of the wagon for a while. On Dec 12th I was at 32 (moderate). Every week after that I've been at 32 with no improvement.
In conclusion, if one does the minimum one can be in good shape. To be in better shape one must do more volume and intensity.
Which measurements were correct? Did you say you used the 220-age to find your maximum HR? That's definitely not accurate for most people. Polar, while a nice company, isn't likely going to give you correct VO2 max measurements if only because the an accurate measurement is going to come from a laboratory a watch and wrist or chest based HR measurements.
I mean let's be honest, even 4 hours of cardio a week wouldn't get you to an elite level for your age. This thread is now making me want to get my max HR and VO2max tested...though the place I would go doesn't have a rowing machine in their lab (just a stationary bike and a treadmill).
You (with a helper, and a chest belt HRM with separate monitor or recording device, and an erg) can run a rowing machine HRmax testing protocol developed by a reasonably sound source. Google is your friend.
Don't do it if you're not medically 100% certain you'll live.
So, there is a possibility that a group of us are going to take a few ergs to a testing center and LT testing might be involved as well. Apparently three or four of them used to do it once every few years. There was musing as to whether or not we could get a group discount 3 -
I understand the physiology of what I'm doing. I also understand that the age based maximal heart rate formula for older people may not accurate. I had a stress echo done about 6 years ago my max heart rate was 166. Bruce Protocol.
The problem is that it's not really accurate for the vast majority of the population. There's a story in the NYTimes where it was reported that the formula is inaccurate for essentially everyone, including children. I'm pretty sure @AnnPT77 has mentioned either here or elsewhere (definitely elsewhere and more than once) that the people doing her cardiac stress test didn't allow her to actually get to her max HR, so I wouldn't be so fast to trust that unless it was in an athletic performance lab with the an end goal that didn't involve diagnosing you with X condition or monitoring your cardiac function for health reasons (as opposed to for athletic training reasons).
Yeah, the medical stress test techs stopped me substantially before I got to my previously-seen max, even though I had breath enough to argue with them about it while I was still treadmilling.
They figured they had the data they needed as I got near age-estimated max, and they wouldn't continue. Not saying that's what happens everywhere, but that's what happened to me. Had I not been (much!) higher previously, I would've had no idea it was an early stop.2 -
I understand the physiology of what I'm doing. I also understand that the age based maximal heart rate formula for older people may not accurate. I had a stress echo done about 6 years ago my max heart rate was 166. Bruce Protocol.
No. You do not understand the physiology of what you're doing.
When you get a standard stress test done, they use the standard formula and make you get your heart rate up to a percentage of your max heart rate based on that standard formula.
I don't know how many times I have to tell you this, but...
YOU NEED TO GET YOUR TRUE MAX HEART RATE IF YOU WANT TO DO HEART RATE TRAINING.
Even in the rare event that your true max heart rate is even close to the standard formula and you are training the way you are now, you still are not even doing the bare minimum to improve your VO2max.
You said you want to improve your VO2max, and people are telling you how to do that, and there are no shortcuts.4 -
...I think VO2max is mostly just looked at when trying to estimate/compare possible race times across different distances.. so not necessarily a metric to care that much about unless maybe training for a new race distance and selecting a goal pace.
In terms of racing yes.
But it is also a direct indicator of overall cardio vascular fitness in general terms. IE fitness level.1 -
I totally recommend a VO2 max lab test. If I followed the Garmin model I would be off by more than a whole zone. Getting personalized zones has been incredibly helpful.
Also, it seems like a few people here are confusing VO2 max with Max heart rate. Max heart rate is entirely dictated by Gene's and age. VO2 max is only to an extent, the rest varies by training style.1 -
I totally recommend a VO2 max lab test. If I followed the Garmin model I would be off by more than a whole zone. Getting personalized zones has been incredibly helpful.
Also, it seems like a few people here are confusing VO2 max with Max heart rate. Max heart rate is entirely dictated by Gene's and age. VO2 max is only to an extent, the rest varies by training style.
Can't speak for others, but I'm trying to say that the genes part is potentially a big deal, since age is such a flawed predictor of HRmax. Ranges set on an incorrect HRmax are incorrect, and training by flawed ranges is less effective.
VO2max can improve with training, unless/until potential is maxed out . . . somewhere pretty much none of us here is likely to be at this moment.
Sports lab tests of VO2max and HRmax are a great plan, but can be pricey and logistically difficult for some. Worth considering, if these things are important to a person, absolutely.1 -
Somehow I broke my number one rule regarding exercise which is do not get hurt. I felt great yesterday morning no back pain so I did my normal resistance training with an average heart rate of 82% max heart rate. Today I did my normal yoga and now I have back pain again. It's depressing.
Just a note...interval training can definitely be helpful but it's sometimes best to separate your resistance and cardio work. Resistance training should not regularly get your HR up to 80+% of max for a continuous period of time. If your 'resistance' workouts put you into this zone for an extended period of time, you are actually doing a really long interval of intense cardio work. This is not healthy and will pretty much guarantee injury. There's a reason that the intervals of really intense work in most HIIT/interval programs are pretty short.
At the very least, by unintentionally turning your resistance training into HIIT programs, you are likely shortchanging both types of exercise.6 -
I totally recommend a VO2 max lab test. If I followed the Garmin model I would be off by more than a whole zone. Getting personalized zones has been incredibly helpful.
Also, it seems like a few people here are confusing VO2 max with Max heart rate. Max heart rate is entirely dictated by Gene's and age. VO2 max is only to an extent, the rest varies by training style.
I must disagree. The average Joe do not need a lab test. Frankly they dont need Garmin or anything else for that matter either.
Sure, gadgets can be valuable, and they can be fun. They can be unhelpful as well as you pointed out yourself.
We dont need to know what our VO2 max is, neither do we need to know our max hearth rate.
What is needed is an understanding of how to train correct.
For example, when I run, I need an understanding of how to apply a proper form, and how I can determine what "zone" im training in. My breathing will tell me when im training in z1/z2, and I promise you I will know when im running in zone 4 and 5
I have Garmin, and many other gadgets as well, but boy is it nice to just go out and run once in a while, and not worry about hearth rate, stride, power and whats not.4 -
I totally recommend a VO2 max lab test. If I followed the Garmin model I would be off by more than a whole zone. Getting personalized zones has been incredibly helpful.
Also, it seems like a few people here are confusing VO2 max with Max heart rate. Max heart rate is entirely dictated by Gene's and age. VO2 max is only to an extent, the rest varies by training style.
I must disagree. The average Joe do not need a lab test. Frankly they dont need Garmin or anything else for that matter either.
Sure, gadgets can be valuable, and they can be fun. They can be unhelpful as well as you pointed out yourself.
We dont need to know what our VO2 max is, neither do we need to know our max hearth rate.
What is needed is an understanding of how to train correct.
For example, when I run, I need an understanding of how to apply a proper form, and how I can determine what "zone" im training in. My breathing will tell me when im training in z1/z2, and I promise you I will know when im running in zone 4 and 5
I have Garmin, and many other gadgets as well, but boy is it nice to just go out and run once in a while, and not worry about hearth rate, stride, power and whats not.
So much this imo. Sometimes it seems like there is a fair bit of OCD on these forums.4 -
I totally recommend a VO2 max lab test. If I followed the Garmin model I would be off by more than a whole zone. Getting personalized zones has been incredibly helpful.
Also, it seems like a few people here are confusing VO2 max with Max heart rate. Max heart rate is entirely dictated by Gene's and age. VO2 max is only to an extent, the rest varies by training style.
I must disagree. The average Joe do not need a lab test. Frankly they dont need Garmin or anything else for that matter either.
Sure, gadgets can be valuable, and they can be fun. They can be unhelpful as well as you pointed out yourself.
We dont need to know what our VO2 max is, neither do we need to know our max hearth rate.
What is needed is an understanding of how to train correct.
For example, when I run, I need an understanding of how to apply a proper form, and how I can determine what "zone" im training in. My breathing will tell me when im training in z1/z2, and I promise you I will know when im running in zone 4 and 5
I have Garmin, and many other gadgets as well, but boy is it nice to just go out and run once in a while, and not worry about hearth rate, stride, power and whats not.
So much this imo. Sometimes it seems like there is a fair bit of OCD on these forums.
I totally agree with you for the Average Joe. However OP, like myself, seems particularly numbers-driven. I've been graphing out my heart rate, blood pressure, colors of clothes in my closet, you name it, for decades now. 80% of the reason I exercise at all is so I can chart the results. Maybe I'm weird and OCD, but I've also completely transformed my health. For a guy who's numbers-driven, he might as well be looking at the right numbers.
Training correctly is more important than anything, but different personalities need different ways to get there. Your way is smart and affordable and surely the most sustainable method for most people, but it never would have gotten me off the couch.6 -
I totally recommend a VO2 max lab test. If I followed the Garmin model I would be off by more than a whole zone. Getting personalized zones has been incredibly helpful.
Also, it seems like a few people here are confusing VO2 max with Max heart rate. Max heart rate is entirely dictated by Gene's and age. VO2 max is only to an extent, the rest varies by training style.
I must disagree. The average Joe do not need a lab test. Frankly they dont need Garmin or anything else for that matter either.
Sure, gadgets can be valuable, and they can be fun. They can be unhelpful as well as you pointed out yourself.
We dont need to know what our VO2 max is, neither do we need to know our max hearth rate.
What is needed is an understanding of how to train correct.
For example, when I run, I need an understanding of how to apply a proper form, and how I can determine what "zone" im training in. My breathing will tell me when im training in z1/z2, and I promise you I will know when im running in zone 4 and 5
I have Garmin, and many other gadgets as well, but boy is it nice to just go out and run once in a while, and not worry about hearth rate, stride, power and whats not.
So much this imo. Sometimes it seems like there is a fair bit of OCD on these forums.
I totally agree with you for the Average Joe. However OP, like myself, seems particularly numbers-driven. I've been graphing out my heart rate, blood pressure, colors of clothes in my closet, you name it, for decades now. 80% of the reason I exercise at all is so I can chart the results. Maybe I'm weird and OCD, but I've also completely transformed my health. For a guy who's numbers-driven, he might as well be looking at the right numbers.
Training correctly is more important than anything, but different personalities need different ways to get there. Your way is smart and affordable and surely the most sustainable method for most people, but it never would have gotten me off the couch.
I totally get what you are saying. My point is that it is soo easy to overwhelm yourself with information, and quite frankly, it can do you more harm than good. I'm talking in general terms here, and not aimed towards you.
I can only speak for myself, but the runs I enjoy the most, is the runs where I just go out and do just that. No music, no gadgets, just me, my footsteps and my breathing.
It feels fantastic, and sounds better than any music track imho.1 -
I totally recommend a VO2 max lab test. If I followed the Garmin model I would be off by more than a whole zone. Getting personalized zones has been incredibly helpful.
Also, it seems like a few people here are confusing VO2 max with Max heart rate. Max heart rate is entirely dictated by Gene's and age. VO2 max is only to an extent, the rest varies by training style.
I must disagree. The average Joe do not need a lab test. Frankly they dont need Garmin or anything else for that matter either.
Sure, gadgets can be valuable, and they can be fun. They can be unhelpful as well as you pointed out yourself.
We dont need to know what our VO2 max is, neither do we need to know our max hearth rate.
What is needed is an understanding of how to train correct.
For example, when I run, I need an understanding of how to apply a proper form, and how I can determine what "zone" im training in. My breathing will tell me when im training in z1/z2, and I promise you I will know when im running in zone 4 and 5
I have Garmin, and many other gadgets as well, but boy is it nice to just go out and run once in a while, and not worry about hearth rate, stride, power and whats not.
Need and want are two different things. I don't think anyone said that there was a need to know any of this information. It's been primarily about what is needed to have accurate information. Performance related metrics are really fun for me.
I mean one could just as easily argue that most people don't need to know how much they weigh. That doesn't mean that there are multiple threads about weight oneself daily on MFP's forums.2 -
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I try to use my resistance training sessions LIKE a HIIT session. If I can get a "twofer" I'll take it. I hope I'm not shortchanging myself trying to do this.
For my 30 min full body resistance training sessions I do 7 sets. One for each major body part.
My HR goes over 100% MaxHR on some sets. And in the 90s% on the others. I try to do my reps very slowly so I spend probably 40-60 seconds doing a set. Then I rest until my HR goes to 75% MaxHR. Usually 2-3 minutes.
So out of my last 30 minute resistance training session:
5 min are in RED zone. 15 min in YELLOW zone. 8 min in GREEN zone. And 2 min in BLUE zone. Polar Beat calls this "Maximum Tempo Training" which is as hard as they go. I HOPE I'm not overdoing it.
My cardio is almost all GREEN zone. My yoga is almost all BLUE zone.Somehow I broke my number one rule regarding exercise which is do not get hurt. I felt great yesterday morning no back pain so I did my normal resistance training with an average heart rate of 82% max heart rate. Today I did my normal yoga and now I have back pain again. It's depressing.
Just a note...interval training can definitely be helpful but it's sometimes best to separate your resistance and cardio work. Resistance training should not regularly get your HR up to 80+% of max for a continuous period of time. If your 'resistance' workouts put you into this zone for an extended period of time, you are actually doing a really long interval of intense cardio work. This is not healthy and will pretty much guarantee injury. There's a reason that the intervals of really intense work in most HIIT/interval programs are pretty short.
At the very least, by unintentionally turning your resistance training into HIIT programs, you are likely shortchanging both types of exercise.
HIIT is a great way to improve VO2 Max. In fact, the proper way to increase VO2 Max is with intervals at high intensity. It's been awhile since last measured in a lab, but my HR at VO2 Max was 159 last it was checked. During part of my training cycle (as a runner), I do interval training 3 times weekly. Those interval runs include 6x3:00 at an intensity above VO2 Max (HR 160's-170's) with 3:00 recovery (slow down to decrease HR) in between. Runner's World (IIRC) had an article online in the past few days about HIIT and its benefit for VO2 Max. And of course, Jason Koop talks about interval runs in his book (Training Essentials for Ultrarunning: How to Train Smarter, Race Faster, and Maximize Your Ultramarathon Performance)... which is what my plan for this year is mostly based from.0 -
I try to use my resistance training sessions LIKE a HIIT session. If I can get a "twofer" I'll take it. I hope I'm not shortchanging myself trying to do this.
For my 30 min full body resistance training sessions I do 7 sets. One for each major body part.
My HR goes over 100% MaxHR on some sets. And in the 90s% on the others. I try to do my reps very slowly so I spend probably 40-60 seconds doing a set. Then I rest until my HR goes to 75% MaxHR. Usually 2-3 minutes.
So out of my last 30 minute resistance training session:
5 min are in RED zone. 15 min in YELLOW zone. 8 min in GREEN zone. And 2 min in BLUE zone. Polar Beat calls this "Maximum Tempo Training" which is as hard as they go. I HOPE I'm not overdoing it.
My cardio is almost all GREEN zone. My yoga is almost all BLUE zone.Somehow I broke my number one rule regarding exercise which is do not get hurt. I felt great yesterday morning no back pain so I did my normal resistance training with an average heart rate of 82% max heart rate. Today I did my normal yoga and now I have back pain again. It's depressing.
Just a note...interval training can definitely be helpful but it's sometimes best to separate your resistance and cardio work. Resistance training should not regularly get your HR up to 80+% of max for a continuous period of time. If your 'resistance' workouts put you into this zone for an extended period of time, you are actually doing a really long interval of intense cardio work. This is not healthy and will pretty much guarantee injury. There's a reason that the intervals of really intense work in most HIIT/interval programs are pretty short.
At the very least, by unintentionally turning your resistance training into HIIT programs, you are likely shortchanging both types of exercise.
I think doing your resistance training HIIT style can reduce some benefits of the resistance training (slow reps have benefits, and doing speed safely can involve using lower weight . . . or doing speed at higher weights increases injury risk).
To the bolded: Outside of certain medically extreme circumstances, your HRmax is literally the maximum heart rate you can reach doing an exercise. You don't exceed it. It's a limit.
If, during routine (but intense) exercise, you're seeing a particularly high number, it's reasonable to assume that your HRmax is at least that number, and possibly higher. If you reset your device to show that number as HRmax, you'll be getting closer to accurate zones.2 -
I think that this has been a great thread.
I was hoping there was an easy LAZY way to increase my VO2Max. There isn't. If I keep doing what I'm going. And I'm perfectly content with my program. I'm going to stay where I am. Which is fine.
But if I SERIOUSLY want to improve my VO2Max I'm going to have to personalize my exercise zones.
I KNOW that the EKG / ECHO stress test is stopped once you reach your 220-age Max HR. They don't test to your REAL MaxHR.
I also know that the 220-age is a RULE OF THUMB. But I like and trust rules of thumb. They are usually "good enough for horseshoes" and that's kind of what I was shooting at.
The first (simple) step to do that from where you are right now, honestly, would be to simply add cardio. Period. Go run. Go cycle hills. Go rollerblading. Go paddling. Go hike mountains. Go whatever. Something that'll make you huff-and-puff a bit (and that you hopefully enjoy). Someone starting out is going to see major improvement without having to hit exact intensity zones. Preferably, some longer stretches at a pace where you feel you could go for quite a while/could converse with someone next to you along with some shorter stretches that make you feel out of breath and can barely speak. That'll improve your cardiovascular health/ability (and VO2max) whether you go have lab testing tell you some numbers or not. Improvement will be evident when your speed increases, you're able to go farther, new hills are doable without taking a walking break, you can keep up with people you couldn't keep up with before,...2
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