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Is starvation mode a myth?
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magnusthenerd wrote: »Yes and no. If you practice a low-calorie diet well below your BMR requirements then yes. Your body will adapt to it and fight to not lose weight. This is starving, like concentration camp victims.
If you fast and change it up then I think your body does not adapt. My weight loss has been very consistent and I almost never eat the minimum calories. I eat LCHF, OMAD and toss in a few fasting days. It's so easy and works great. You have to ignore stuff like starvation mode and minimum calories.
Everyone's BMR drops while losing weight. Beyond just the change in mass, while dieting there is a certain amount of it that drops while a calorie deficit is maintained - swapping out doesn't change that. Only a dietary break seems to relieve it, and it seems to need to be at least a week or more break.
Hi,
Not when you are fasting! I read a fasting book which says your BMR actually increases when you are fasting. But I think long term it will go down. So if you lose 50 pounds it will be less than when you started. But fasting 2 days a week will keep it up.
:huh:
What book is that?
Because no.14 -
magnusthenerd wrote: »Yes and no. If you practice a low-calorie diet well below your BMR requirements then yes. Your body will adapt to it and fight to not lose weight. This is starving, like concentration camp victims.
If you fast and change it up then I think your body does not adapt. My weight loss has been very consistent and I almost never eat the minimum calories. I eat LCHF, OMAD and toss in a few fasting days. It's so easy and works great. You have to ignore stuff like starvation mode and minimum calories.
Everyone's BMR drops while losing weight. Beyond just the change in mass, while dieting there is a certain amount of it that drops while a calorie deficit is maintained - swapping out doesn't change that. Only a dietary break seems to relieve it, and it seems to need to be at least a week or more break.
Hi,
Not when you are fasting! I read a fasting book which says your BMR actually increases when you are fasting. But I think long term it will go down. So if you lose 50 pounds it will be less than when you started. But fasting 2 days a week will keep it up.
Of course a book about fasting said fasting has all sorts of benefits - that's how you sell books. You can't believe everything you read, vetting sources and looking at study methodology and reproducible results is important. There are lots of interesting theories out there about fasting, but they are just that - theories. No benefits outside of calorie control have much data behind them yet.
Regardless, whatever way of eating you follow, avoiding aggressively paced weight loss and working in diet breaks will help to eliminate risk of adaptive thermogenesis.10 -
You go do some of your own reading, Because YES! Think about it if we curled up and died when we were hungry we would have died out before we got going.
https://www.amazon.com/Complete-Guide-Fasting-Intermittent-Alternate-Day/dp/162860001231 -
It’s by Fung...nuff said18
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You go do some of your own reading, Because YES! Think about it if we curled up and died when we were hungry we would have died out before we got going.
https://www.amazon.com/Complete-Guide-Fasting-Intermittent-Alternate-Day/dp/1628600012
These boards are full of people who have followed all different ways of eating and all different eating schedules, lost weight and have kept it off.
I don't need to buy some book. I already got down to a healthy weight and have been maintaining for a couple of years. I can eat more now than I did when I was heavier. I don't do low carb, I experimented with 16:8 but eventually gave it up. I have been fascinated by my own nutrition and health research for years. There is not nearly enough data behind fasting, but that doesn't keep snake oil salesman from trying to convince people it's the latest miracle cure.
There is a huge difference between "fasting is beneficial" and "fasting won't kill you". I'd rather fuel my body, thanks though.11 -
deannalfisher wrote: »It’s by Fung...nuff said
It might be popular to say this, but I would bet money that you never read any of his books. While other doctors ruminate about what to do about the American obesity epidemic, he is actually helping people and doing things. He is a well-respected nephrologist (think that's an easy field). And he has saved 1000's of people. Maybe even myself. Anytime someone scoff's Dr. Fung I know they don't know anything about him.31 -
You go do some of your own reading, Because YES! Think about it if we curled up and died when we were hungry we would have died out before we got going.
https://www.amazon.com/Complete-Guide-Fasting-Intermittent-Alternate-Day/dp/1628600012
These boards are full of people who have followed all different ways of eating and all different eating schedules, lost weight and have kept it off.
I don't need to buy some book. I already got down to a healthy weight and have been maintaining for a couple of years. I can eat more now than I did when I was heavier. I don't do low carb, I experimented with 16:8 but eventually gave it up. I have been fascinated by my own nutrition and health research for years. There is not nearly enough data behind fasting, but that doesn't keep snake oil salesman from trying to convince people it's the latest miracle cure.
There is a huge difference between "fasting is beneficial" and "fasting won't kill you". I'd rather fuel my body, thanks though.
This is an odd statement considering fasting has been around for thousands of years. If you read and enjoy it you would benefit from any of his books. They are well written, fun and engaging. No, he doesn't follow standard dietary recommendations. Considering that diets, in general, have about a 3 percent success rate, maybe the people struggling with weight might benefit from a new approach!
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You go do some of your own reading, Because YES! Think about it if we curled up and died when we were hungry we would have died out before we got going.
https://www.amazon.com/Complete-Guide-Fasting-Intermittent-Alternate-Day/dp/1628600012
These boards are full of people who have followed all different ways of eating and all different eating schedules, lost weight and have kept it off.
I don't need to buy some book. I already got down to a healthy weight and have been maintaining for a couple of years. I can eat more now than I did when I was heavier. I don't do low carb, I experimented with 16:8 but eventually gave it up. I have been fascinated by my own nutrition and health research for years. There is not nearly enough data behind fasting, but that doesn't keep snake oil salesman from trying to convince people it's the latest miracle cure.
There is a huge difference between "fasting is beneficial" and "fasting won't kill you". I'd rather fuel my body, thanks though.
This is an odd statement considering fasting has been around for thousands of years. If you read and enjoy it you would benefit from any of his books. They are well written, fun and engaging. No, he doesn't follow standard dietary recommendations. Considering that diets, in general, have about a 3 percent success rate, maybe the people struggling with weight might benefit from a new approach!
And the fact that fasting has been around for thousands of years but it isn't scientifically obvious it has benefits outside of spirituality and calorie control should tell you something.
You are again making assumptions. I've read Fung, he is engaging and fun. He also has an unfortunate misunderstanding about how the endocrine system works. Just because you can get a doctorate in one medical specialty doesn't mean you're an expert on the entire body. Either he is misunderstanding how the endocrine system works, or he is purposefully misleading people to increase his following.
Yes, if someone is struggling to maintain a calorie deficit, they should absolutely give low carb a try! It does help some people hit their calorie goal more easily and happily. But that's personal preference, not a biological necessity. I have found the most success eating well at the right calorie level eating closer to the Mediterranean or Blue Zones style of eating. But I would never tell anyone that is the only way or even the best way for everyone (though that is my opinion, I recognize that's all it is).15 -
Either he is misunderstanding how the endocrine system works, or he is purposefully misleading people to increase his following.
This is just not true. He is not alone. There are many doctors that are following this exact path. It is a revolution fat loss and curing people. If you can show me one thing in any of his books that is not true, I'd like to see what you are talking about. I'd like to verify so provide the book and page number.
Also, I never said you didn't read his books. That was for the other person.27 -
Either he is misunderstanding how the endocrine system works, or he is purposefully misleading people to increase his following.
This is just not true. He is not alone. There are many doctors that are following this exact path. It is a revolution fat loss and curing people. If you can show me one thing in any of his books that is not true, I'd like to see what you are talking about. I'd like to verify so provide the book and page number.
Also, I never said you didn't read his books. That was for the other person.
We've had plenty of debate threads about Fung's insulin theory where we've hashed that out and clearly outlined where he goes wrong, and I don't get the impression your mind will be changed regardless, so I'm going to pass. Have a great day
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We've had plenty of debate threads about Fung's insulin theory where we've hashed that out and clearly outlined where he goes wrong, and I don't get the impression your mind will be changed regardless, so I'm going to pass. Have a great day
That's not his book. Who knows what people said on here. If you can show me something in his book I'd be happy to discuss it. I'll accept that as a concession. You have a wonderful day as well.
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We've had plenty of debate threads about Fung's insulin theory where we've hashed that out and clearly outlined where he goes wrong, and I don't get the impression your mind will be changed regardless, so I'm going to pass. Have a great day
That's not his book. Who knows what people said on here. If you can show me something in his book I'd be happy to discuss it. I'll accept that as a concession. You have a wonderful day as well.
So you’re only looking for documentation where Fung himself, in one of his own publications, disputed what he had previously claimed? Other evidence based publications or discussions of such from members on this site or well respected individuals in the health, fitness and nutrition sciences will not change your mind?
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WinoGelato wrote: »We've had plenty of debate threads about Fung's insulin theory where we've hashed that out and clearly outlined where he goes wrong, and I don't get the impression your mind will be changed regardless, so I'm going to pass. Have a great day
That's not his book. Who knows what people said on here. If you can show me something in his book I'd be happy to discuss it. I'll accept that as a concession. You have a wonderful day as well.
So you’re only looking for documentation where Fung himself, in one of his own publications, disputed what he had previously claimed? Other evidence based publications or discussions of such from members on this site or well respected individuals in the health, fitness and nutrition sciences will not change your mind?
No. Don't assume that. Go to Amazon. Type in Low Carb and search. Then type in Fasting and search. You will find many books that I have read. And you probably should too since you appear to be following me around on here disputing what I've said.21 -
WinoGelato wrote: »We've had plenty of debate threads about Fung's insulin theory where we've hashed that out and clearly outlined where he goes wrong, and I don't get the impression your mind will be changed regardless, so I'm going to pass. Have a great day
That's not his book. Who knows what people said on here. If you can show me something in his book I'd be happy to discuss it. I'll accept that as a concession. You have a wonderful day as well.
So you’re only looking for documentation where Fung himself, in one of his own publications, disputed what he had previously claimed? Other evidence based publications or discussions of such from members on this site or well respected individuals in the health, fitness and nutrition sciences will not change your mind?
No. Don't assume that. Go to Amazon. Type in Low Carb and search. Then type in Fasting and search. You will find many books that I have read. And you probably should too since you appear to be following me around on here disputing what I've said.
Books for sale on Amazon are not always the best source of unbiased scientific evidence. Try peer reviewed scientific studies available on google scholar including the meta analyses that have been posted time and again in some of the debates on this topic that have been hashed and rehashed.15 -
Whatever. If you read some of these books you'd see that the footnotes to the scientific peer-reviewed documents are included in the footnotes. They are not making this stuff up as you imply. I don't like people slandering those much smarter than them because their ideas are different than the normal. If you'd like to read my first statement that's my opinion on the original question.24
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Either he is misunderstanding how the endocrine system works, or he is purposefully misleading people to increase his following.
This is just not true. He is not alone. There are many doctors that are following this exact path. It is a revolution fat loss and curing people. If you can show me one thing in any of his books that is not true, I'd like to see what you are talking about. I'd like to verify so provide the book and page number.
Also, I never said you didn't read his books. That was for the other person.
Wait so being a maverick is good or bad? I can't follow which you're claiming Fung is at this point.
I've yet to see a study showing anything but a sustained diet break stops adaptive thermogenesis. Does Fung cite a specific study showing some fasting window stops adaptive thermogenesis?5 -
Whatever. If you read some of these books you'd see that the footnotes to the scientific peer-reviewed documents are included in the footnotes. They are not making this stuff up as you imply. I don't like people slandering those much smarter than them because their ideas are different than the normal. If you'd like to read my first statement that's my opinion on the original question.
Providing a list of references does not make something equivalent to peer-reviewed science.12 -
I had weight loss surgery a year ago (I am not here to be judged, please). In this past year I have lost 135 lbs (Yes, I am healthy). The surgery claims patients lose about 60% of their excess weight. I have surpassed that with taking on running and working out regularly. Anyway, what I can contribute to this conversation is my own personal experience which, to some extent, involves a level of starvation, especially right after the surgery. I have learned that weight is one hell of a “thing.” Throughout this process, each step of the way involved increasing calories to reach a new normal calorie level for myself. How did my body signal to me that more calories were needed? My weight stalled.....
So yes, I do believe if someone who is overweight follows a strict/honest diet, their body will throw them an extremely discouraging curve ball at a time when discouragement is the last thing they need.
First, congratulations on the weight loss.
Regarding starvation though - have you ever read up on the Minnesota Starvation Experiment?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minnesota_Starvation_Experiment
6 months at 1560 kcals a day. I'm asking because hunger pangs (I'm starving!) and starvation aren't the same thing. May I ask what your caloric intake was during your recovery?
Thanks
edit: The 1560 is per wiki - I had thought it was less than that...input appreciated.
I was just reading about the experiment the other day, and was wondering if it would come up on this thread. I also thought they were allowed fewer calories.0 -
Being a maverick is great.
You all need to up your research games. Simply googling Metabolic changes in fasting there are many hits that confirm what I said about BMR increasing the first few days. So, if you do what I do. Feast and Famine. You trick your body into shedding pounds, eating fewer calories and NOT going into starvation mode. So like I said. Is starvation mode a myth? Yes and no.
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magnusthenerd wrote: »Either he is misunderstanding how the endocrine system works, or he is purposefully misleading people to increase his following.
This is just not true. He is not alone. There are many doctors that are following this exact path. It is a revolution fat loss and curing people. If you can show me one thing in any of his books that is not true, I'd like to see what you are talking about. I'd like to verify so provide the book and page number.
Also, I never said you didn't read his books. That was for the other person.
Wait so being a maverick is good or bad? I can't follow which you're claiming Fung is at this point.
I've yet to see a study showing anything but a sustained diet break stops adaptive thermogenesis. Does Fung cite a specific study showing some fasting window stops adaptive thermogenesis?
I'm not going to go search the books. If you have something that is a lie, I'll check it out. There is too much incorrect generalizing here already. That's where people make mistakes.20
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