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Is starvation mode a myth?
nessac1984
Posts: 6 Member
in Debate Club
I have read a large number of comments on Facebook etc where people state that they have not been losing weight and cannot understand why... and people are telling them that their body is in starvation mode and they need to eat more. I’m interested in people’s opinions on this - starvation mode = fact or myth? I have personally cut back on calories consumed and increased physical activity and I am losing weight so it’s not an issue for me, starvation mode just sounds like an excuse to me and these people who are supposedly in a calorie deficit but still gaining weight are more than likely cheating?
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Replies
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It would be handy if it was a thing, because then nobody would ever starve to death. But they do, so it's not.
If you're severely undereating you're probably lethargic, tired, cold, unable to function normally, so your everyday activity levels go down. That's your body conserving energy (not storing precious calories as fat without using them to keep your heart beating) and it wouldn't happen without you noticing and having to be told by Brenda on facebook.
But you don't have to be "cheating" to be wrong, the human brain is just really bad at estimating calories in food.24 -
The reason why you store fat in the first place is to have energy reserves your body can use when there's too little food available = weight loss. If overweight people reached "starvation mode" after like a month or so (which many claim to have reached), how do you explain anorexia and actual starvation (=think of extremely thin people in Africa etc.)?
Most people use the starvation mode myth as an excuse for not counting calories correctly or yo-yo-ing back because they CONSUMED MORE CALORIES THAN THEY BURN. You do not suddenly gain back the weight when you eat within your (new) maintenance TDEE.
(I can recommend a REALLY good book on this topic but it's in German and I don't think there's a translation in English available yet)5 -
This idea comes from an actual experiment done in Minnesota after the war. It's called "The Minnesota Experiment". Starvation mode is a catchy phrase and many people think it applies in stalled weight loss. No. It doesn't apply in normal life. Metabolism can slow down, but it takes years of dieting and is not very significant. Trying to explain it to people isn't worth it, unless it's on MFP.10
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This is a very good link for explaining what the difference between the rubbish you read on Facebook about "Starvation Mode" and Adaptive Thermogenesis which is caused by a long-term deficit which can cause a reduction in the CO (Calories Out) of CI(Calories In)>CO(Calories Out).
https://www.aworkoutroutine.com/starvation-mode/
The most likely reason for people who are purporting to be suffering it on Facebook is that they are underestimating their calorific intake - i.e. eating more than they think, overestimating their calorific output - i.e. not burning as much in exercise as they thing or a combination of the two.
We see this every day here, in the multitude of "I'm eating 1200 calories but can't lose weight" threads.17 -
A couple good thread from the Sticky Posts/ Most Helpful Posts in the General section:
https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/1077746/starvation-mode-adaptive-thermogenesis-and-weight-loss/p1
https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/761810/the-starvation-mode-myth-again/p16 -
IMO starvation mode is not a myth. It is though in the context the way most people throw it around...8
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nessac1984 wrote: »I have read a large number of comments on Facebook etc where people state that they have not been losing weight and cannot understand why... and people are telling them that their body is in starvation mode and they need to eat more. I’m interested in people’s opinions on this - starvation mode = fact or myth? I have personally cut back on calories consumed and increased physical activity and I am losing weight so it’s not an issue for me, starvation mode just sounds like an excuse to me and these people who are supposedly in a calorie deficit but still gaining weight are more than likely cheating?
Yes and no. It is a myth in the way most people talk about it...ie under eating causes the body to store fat...that is a myth.
What is not a myth is adaptive thermogenesis. This will happen when cutting calories in general, but can be exacerbated by large deficits. Essentially, your body starts to slow down "non-essential" functions...you grow hair slower or in the case of very large deficits might start losing hair all together...nails grow slower and/or become brittle...loss of menstrual cycle...less involuntary movements like fidgeting...more lethargic in general...loss of muscle mass, etc. All of these things will slow down metabolism and make losing weight more difficult.
Large deficits also put a lot of stress on the body and raise cortisol levels which can make fat loss more difficult and result in additional water retention.
ETA: Eating more to lose weight often involves reduced stress, more involuntary movements, more productive workouts, more general movement, etc which is why a lot of people will lose weight more effectively at a higher calorie target...but not one that is over maintenance obviously.17 -
Ironlady70 wrote: »
What do you mean? Adaptive thermogenesis is completely reversible in a very short amount of time with eating at maintenance.
https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10604863/of-refeeds-and-diet-breaks/p1
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I had weight loss surgery a year ago (I am not here to be judged, please). In this past year I have lost 135 lbs (Yes, I am healthy). The surgery claims patients lose about 60% of their excess weight. I have surpassed that with taking on running and working out regularly. Anyway, what I can contribute to this conversation is my own personal experience which, to some extent, involves a level of starvation, especially right after the surgery. I have learned that weight is one hell of a “thing.” Throughout this process, each step of the way involved increasing calories to reach a new normal calorie level for myself. How did my body signal to me that more calories were needed? My weight stalled.....
So yes, I do believe if someone who is overweight follows a strict/honest diet, their body will throw them an extremely discouraging curve ball at a time when discouragement is the last thing they need.26 -
sfcalabro5659 wrote: »I had weight loss surgery a year ago (I am not here to be judged, please). In this past year I have lost 135 lbs (Yes, I am healthy). The surgery claims patients lose about 60% of their excess weight. I have surpassed that with taking on running and working out regularly. Anyway, what I can contribute to this conversation is my own personal experience which, to some extent, involves a level of starvation, especially right after the surgery. I have learned that weight is one hell of a “thing.” Throughout this process, each step of the way involved increasing calories to reach a new normal calorie level for myself. How did my body signal to me that more calories were needed? My weight stalled.....
So yes, I do believe if someone who is overweight follows a strict/honest diet, their body will throw them an extremely discouraging curve ball at a time when discouragement is the last thing they need.
Can you clarify what you mean by a "stall"? How long of a stall would you need to believe that your body required more calories in order to lose weight?8 -
I had weight loss surgery a year ago (I am not here to be judged, please). In this past year I have lost 135 lbs (Yes, I am healthy). The surgery claims patients lose about 60% of their excess weight. I have surpassed that with taking on running and working out regularly. Anyway, what I can contribute to this conversation is my own personal experience which, to some extent, involves a level of starvation, especially right after the surgery. I have learned that weight is one hell of a “thing.” Throughout this process, each step of the way involved increasing calories to reach a new normal calorie level for myself. How did my body signal to me that more calories were needed? My weight stalled.....
So yes, I do believe if someone who is overweight follows a strict/honest diet, their body will throw them an extremely discouraging curve ball at a time when discouragement is the last thing they need.
First, congratulations on the weight loss.
Regarding starvation though - have you ever read up on the Minnesota Starvation Experiment?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minnesota_Starvation_Experiment
6 months at 1560 kcals a day. I'm asking because hunger pangs (I'm starving!) and starvation aren't the same thing. May I ask what your caloric intake was during your recovery?
Thanks
edit: The 1560 is per wiki - I had thought it was less than that...input appreciated.6 -
Recovery was three, two week phases. First phase was all liquid so calories were truly minimal, hydration was the primary focus. I had to drink 4oz of liquid every hour. The second phase was soft textured foods like yogurt and protein shakes no more than 4oz at a time, 3-4 times a day (along w hydration). The last phase was soft textured food like chilli, no more than 4oz at a time, 3-4 times a day. After that phase the person is “healed,” and they then have to re learn how and what to eat again. At this point, one year out, I consume 1500 calories a day is where I am with calories per day and I do not push it from there. The weight steadily declines throughout this entire process but there were times, for weeks, my weightloss would stop. I added good calories to my diet and it would resume. This is just what worked for me. I am not a scientist, doctor or nutritionist.
Sorry for the long response. Do you regret asking? Lol!16 -
Starvation mode is a myth.
Adaptive thermogenesis is a real phenomena with a body of literature discussing it, and distinguishing it from conceptions of a starvation mode.
There are definite tendencies a lot of people have when they try to lose weight - unconsciously they'll eat more, and move less. However, when you're the military with a bunch of conscientious objectors to experiment on - where they have to move as much and eat as little as researchers dictate - no special hidden mode in the human body stops them from losing weight.11 -
Recovery was three, two week phases. First phase was all liquid so calories were truly minimal, hydration was the primary focus. I had to drink 4oz of liquid every hour. The second phase was soft textured foods like yogurt and protein shakes no more than 4oz at a time, 3-4 times a day (along w hydration). The last phase was soft textured food like chilli, no more than 4oz at a time, 3-4 times a day. After that phase the person is “healed,” and they then have to re learn how and what to eat again. At this point, one year out, I consume 1500 calories a day is where I am with calories per day and I do not push it from there. The weight steadily declines throughout this entire process but there were times, for weeks, my weightloss would stop. I added good calories to my diet and it would resume. This is just what worked for me. I am not a scientist, doctor or nutritionist.
Sorry for the long response. Do you regret asking? Lol!
A long response in which you didn’t actually answer the question you were asked, which I find... interesting.
The thing is, stalls of a couple of weeks just happen, because weight loss isn’t a linear process. And then weight loss resumes.
People often do a bunch of random stuff to try and break the stall, and then fervently insist that whatever they did last is why weight loss resumed; but it’s actually pure coincidence. Similarly, your increasing calories most probably* had nothing to do with resuming weight loss after your temporary plateaus. Weight loss would have resumed whether you increased your calories a little, changed up your macros, drank ACV, or did nothing at all.
* Unless increasing your calories a little gave you so much extra energy that you increased your movement a lot, thus increasing your actual deficit. It strikes me that someone who’s had surgery is quite likely to increase their movement over time in any case.18 -
If you could get work for free without spending any energy, cars wouldn't stop because they run out of gas, and airlines wouldn't waste money refueling their fleets.3
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nessac1984 wrote: »...I’m interested in people’s opinions on this - starvation mode = fact or myth? ... starvation mode just sounds like an excuse to me and these people who are supposedly in a calorie deficit but still gaining weight are more than likely cheating?
I was not aware until reading this discussion that some people view the concept of starvation mode as something that literally made you stop losing weight ever...I did not think something that ridiculous could be something believed. 0.o
So, yeah, as people have said, starvation mode is real IF it's what people are calling adaptive thermogenesis. But not some weird 'you will never lose weight ever' thing.
But that said, your last question...no, I don't think it's more likely people are cheating and using starvation mode as an excuse, honestly. Some could be, sure. But most of the time, I think people are genuinely trying to figure out why they aren't losing weight, and that is something they've heard of. But they can be misjudging their calorie usage, or misjudging their intake, or there can even be something else going on like a medical condition, that is impacting their weight loss, and they just don't know.
Personally, I don't tend to assume people are being dishonest, just because they believe something that is untrue. I've seen far too many people believe a lot of untrue things in all faith to believe that, you know?5 -
Yes and no. If you practice a low-calorie diet well below your BMR requirements then yes. Your body will adapt to it and fight to not lose weight. This is starving, like concentration camp victims.
If you fast and change it up then I think your body does not adapt. My weight loss has been very consistent and I almost never eat the minimum calories. I eat LCHF, OMAD and toss in a few fasting days. It's so easy and works great. You have to ignore stuff like starvation mode and minimum calories.25 -
Yes and no. If you practice a low-calorie diet well below your BMR requirements then yes. Your body will adapt to it and fight to not lose weight. This is starving, like concentration camp victims.
If you fast and change it up then I think your body does not adapt. My weight loss has been very consistent and I almost never eat the minimum calories. I eat LCHF, OMAD and toss in a few fasting days. It's so easy and works great. You have to ignore stuff like starvation mode and minimum calories.
Everyone's BMR drops while losing weight. Beyond just the change in mass, while dieting there is a certain amount of it that drops while a calorie deficit is maintained - swapping out doesn't change that. Only a dietary break seems to relieve it, and it seems to need to be at least a week or more break.7 -
magnusthenerd wrote: »Yes and no. If you practice a low-calorie diet well below your BMR requirements then yes. Your body will adapt to it and fight to not lose weight. This is starving, like concentration camp victims.
If you fast and change it up then I think your body does not adapt. My weight loss has been very consistent and I almost never eat the minimum calories. I eat LCHF, OMAD and toss in a few fasting days. It's so easy and works great. You have to ignore stuff like starvation mode and minimum calories.
Everyone's BMR drops while losing weight. Beyond just the change in mass, while dieting there is a certain amount of it that drops while a calorie deficit is maintained - swapping out doesn't change that. Only a dietary break seems to relieve it, and it seems to need to be at least a week or more break.
Hi,
Not when you are fasting! I read a fasting book which says your BMR actually increases when you are fasting. But I think long term it will go down. So if you lose 50 pounds it will be less than when you started. But fasting 2 days a week will keep it up.43 -
magnusthenerd wrote: »Yes and no. If you practice a low-calorie diet well below your BMR requirements then yes. Your body will adapt to it and fight to not lose weight. This is starving, like concentration camp victims.
If you fast and change it up then I think your body does not adapt. My weight loss has been very consistent and I almost never eat the minimum calories. I eat LCHF, OMAD and toss in a few fasting days. It's so easy and works great. You have to ignore stuff like starvation mode and minimum calories.
Everyone's BMR drops while losing weight. Beyond just the change in mass, while dieting there is a certain amount of it that drops while a calorie deficit is maintained - swapping out doesn't change that. Only a dietary break seems to relieve it, and it seems to need to be at least a week or more break.
Hi,
Not when you are fasting! I read a fasting book which says your BMR actually increases when you are fasting. But I think long term it will go down. So if you lose 50 pounds it will be less than when you started. But fasting 2 days a week will keep it up.
:huh:
What book is that?
Because no.14 -
magnusthenerd wrote: »Yes and no. If you practice a low-calorie diet well below your BMR requirements then yes. Your body will adapt to it and fight to not lose weight. This is starving, like concentration camp victims.
If you fast and change it up then I think your body does not adapt. My weight loss has been very consistent and I almost never eat the minimum calories. I eat LCHF, OMAD and toss in a few fasting days. It's so easy and works great. You have to ignore stuff like starvation mode and minimum calories.
Everyone's BMR drops while losing weight. Beyond just the change in mass, while dieting there is a certain amount of it that drops while a calorie deficit is maintained - swapping out doesn't change that. Only a dietary break seems to relieve it, and it seems to need to be at least a week or more break.
Hi,
Not when you are fasting! I read a fasting book which says your BMR actually increases when you are fasting. But I think long term it will go down. So if you lose 50 pounds it will be less than when you started. But fasting 2 days a week will keep it up.
Of course a book about fasting said fasting has all sorts of benefits - that's how you sell books. You can't believe everything you read, vetting sources and looking at study methodology and reproducible results is important. There are lots of interesting theories out there about fasting, but they are just that - theories. No benefits outside of calorie control have much data behind them yet.
Regardless, whatever way of eating you follow, avoiding aggressively paced weight loss and working in diet breaks will help to eliminate risk of adaptive thermogenesis.10 -
You go do some of your own reading, Because YES! Think about it if we curled up and died when we were hungry we would have died out before we got going.
https://www.amazon.com/Complete-Guide-Fasting-Intermittent-Alternate-Day/dp/162860001231 -
It’s by Fung...nuff said18
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You go do some of your own reading, Because YES! Think about it if we curled up and died when we were hungry we would have died out before we got going.
https://www.amazon.com/Complete-Guide-Fasting-Intermittent-Alternate-Day/dp/1628600012
These boards are full of people who have followed all different ways of eating and all different eating schedules, lost weight and have kept it off.
I don't need to buy some book. I already got down to a healthy weight and have been maintaining for a couple of years. I can eat more now than I did when I was heavier. I don't do low carb, I experimented with 16:8 but eventually gave it up. I have been fascinated by my own nutrition and health research for years. There is not nearly enough data behind fasting, but that doesn't keep snake oil salesman from trying to convince people it's the latest miracle cure.
There is a huge difference between "fasting is beneficial" and "fasting won't kill you". I'd rather fuel my body, thanks though.11 -
deannalfisher wrote: »It’s by Fung...nuff said
It might be popular to say this, but I would bet money that you never read any of his books. While other doctors ruminate about what to do about the American obesity epidemic, he is actually helping people and doing things. He is a well-respected nephrologist (think that's an easy field). And he has saved 1000's of people. Maybe even myself. Anytime someone scoff's Dr. Fung I know they don't know anything about him.31 -
You go do some of your own reading, Because YES! Think about it if we curled up and died when we were hungry we would have died out before we got going.
https://www.amazon.com/Complete-Guide-Fasting-Intermittent-Alternate-Day/dp/1628600012
These boards are full of people who have followed all different ways of eating and all different eating schedules, lost weight and have kept it off.
I don't need to buy some book. I already got down to a healthy weight and have been maintaining for a couple of years. I can eat more now than I did when I was heavier. I don't do low carb, I experimented with 16:8 but eventually gave it up. I have been fascinated by my own nutrition and health research for years. There is not nearly enough data behind fasting, but that doesn't keep snake oil salesman from trying to convince people it's the latest miracle cure.
There is a huge difference between "fasting is beneficial" and "fasting won't kill you". I'd rather fuel my body, thanks though.
This is an odd statement considering fasting has been around for thousands of years. If you read and enjoy it you would benefit from any of his books. They are well written, fun and engaging. No, he doesn't follow standard dietary recommendations. Considering that diets, in general, have about a 3 percent success rate, maybe the people struggling with weight might benefit from a new approach!
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You go do some of your own reading, Because YES! Think about it if we curled up and died when we were hungry we would have died out before we got going.
https://www.amazon.com/Complete-Guide-Fasting-Intermittent-Alternate-Day/dp/1628600012
These boards are full of people who have followed all different ways of eating and all different eating schedules, lost weight and have kept it off.
I don't need to buy some book. I already got down to a healthy weight and have been maintaining for a couple of years. I can eat more now than I did when I was heavier. I don't do low carb, I experimented with 16:8 but eventually gave it up. I have been fascinated by my own nutrition and health research for years. There is not nearly enough data behind fasting, but that doesn't keep snake oil salesman from trying to convince people it's the latest miracle cure.
There is a huge difference between "fasting is beneficial" and "fasting won't kill you". I'd rather fuel my body, thanks though.
This is an odd statement considering fasting has been around for thousands of years. If you read and enjoy it you would benefit from any of his books. They are well written, fun and engaging. No, he doesn't follow standard dietary recommendations. Considering that diets, in general, have about a 3 percent success rate, maybe the people struggling with weight might benefit from a new approach!
And the fact that fasting has been around for thousands of years but it isn't scientifically obvious it has benefits outside of spirituality and calorie control should tell you something.
You are again making assumptions. I've read Fung, he is engaging and fun. He also has an unfortunate misunderstanding about how the endocrine system works. Just because you can get a doctorate in one medical specialty doesn't mean you're an expert on the entire body. Either he is misunderstanding how the endocrine system works, or he is purposefully misleading people to increase his following.
Yes, if someone is struggling to maintain a calorie deficit, they should absolutely give low carb a try! It does help some people hit their calorie goal more easily and happily. But that's personal preference, not a biological necessity. I have found the most success eating well at the right calorie level eating closer to the Mediterranean or Blue Zones style of eating. But I would never tell anyone that is the only way or even the best way for everyone (though that is my opinion, I recognize that's all it is).15 -
Either he is misunderstanding how the endocrine system works, or he is purposefully misleading people to increase his following.
This is just not true. He is not alone. There are many doctors that are following this exact path. It is a revolution fat loss and curing people. If you can show me one thing in any of his books that is not true, I'd like to see what you are talking about. I'd like to verify so provide the book and page number.
Also, I never said you didn't read his books. That was for the other person.27 -
Either he is misunderstanding how the endocrine system works, or he is purposefully misleading people to increase his following.
This is just not true. He is not alone. There are many doctors that are following this exact path. It is a revolution fat loss and curing people. If you can show me one thing in any of his books that is not true, I'd like to see what you are talking about. I'd like to verify so provide the book and page number.
Also, I never said you didn't read his books. That was for the other person.
We've had plenty of debate threads about Fung's insulin theory where we've hashed that out and clearly outlined where he goes wrong, and I don't get the impression your mind will be changed regardless, so I'm going to pass. Have a great day
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