Is it possible to build any substantive muscle while in heavy calorie deficits?
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Spadesheart
Posts: 463 Member
So, I'm losing weight, and I'm losing it pretty quick. I have a pretty high deficit and work out 5-6 days a week.
If I continue at my pace, I will be at goal in 3 months, and while it's great that I'm losing quickly, it would be nice to keep getting stronger.
I was reading an article that cited a study that said it is possible to build lean muscle while in deficits if you are getting around 1-1.5 grams of protein per pound of human. For me, and the protein I'm looking at, that's about 4-6 scoops, which I could actually fairly easily fit in while still being at a dietary pace to lose 2 pounds per week.
Is this actually possible or would I be wasting my time and money?
Even if it were just a few extra pounds, that would be better than nothing over the next 3 months.
If I continue at my pace, I will be at goal in 3 months, and while it's great that I'm losing quickly, it would be nice to keep getting stronger.
I was reading an article that cited a study that said it is possible to build lean muscle while in deficits if you are getting around 1-1.5 grams of protein per pound of human. For me, and the protein I'm looking at, that's about 4-6 scoops, which I could actually fairly easily fit in while still being at a dietary pace to lose 2 pounds per week.
Is this actually possible or would I be wasting my time and money?
Even if it were just a few extra pounds, that would be better than nothing over the next 3 months.
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Replies
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It is per pound of lean body mass. If you have a lot of weight to lose, you already have substantial musculature. A lifting program with plenty of protein intake will help you minimize the loss of muscle tissue as you lose weight. Once the fat is gone, you'll be awesome.5
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Congrats on your efforts. Strength training will help you retain more muscle whether you build new muscle or not, especially if you choose to lose quickly. Strength training will help you look better and feel better when you reach your weight goal. You can get some or all of your protein through food. Powders are not necessary.5
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JeromeBarry1 wrote: »It is per pound of lean body mass. If you have a lot of weight to lose, you already have substantial musculature. A lifting program with plenty of protein intake will help you minimize the loss of muscle tissue as you lose weight. Once the fat is gone, you'll be awesome.
30 more pounds at least to get me to the upper end of healthy, 25 down since mid December. I can tell there's muscle under here, and I've definitely been getting surprisingly stronger at the gym, but I expect I'm going to start hitting hard boundaries at the gym in the next week or two as I probably push my muscles as far as they can go without the fuel to grow.
I've definitely gained some muscle, even though conventional wisdom says that I shouldnt have. my arms and legs are measurably more muscular.0 -
Why would you have 4-6 scoops of powder instead of most of the protein coming from food?
What is your existing level of lifting? If you're a beginner, gaining some muscle in a deficit is possible, probably even likely. At the least, you'd probably want to preserve as much muscle as possible, which will only happen by continued stimulus of the muscle.10 -
magnusthenerd wrote: »Why would you have 4-6 scoops of powder instead of most of the protein coming from food?
What is your existing level of lifting? If you're a beginner, gaining some muscle in a deficit is possible, probably even likely. At the least, you'd probably want to preserve as much muscle as possible, which will only happen by continued stimulus of the muscle.
It's the amount of calories for the amount of protein. I can pack a lot of protein in not a lot of calories with the powder, and still be within calorie goal. It would be exceptionally difficult to do that with actual food food.
As for level of lifting...uhh, I'm doing a lot of exercises but from my tracker
Deadlift 185 to 6 reps
Bent over barbell row at 135 to 8 reps
Lat pulldown at 105 x8
Flat bench at 95 x6
Legpress 550 to 10 reps. More room to go up for sure.
Squat at 165 x6- not sure if form is perfect
Machine fly at 135 x8
Shrugs at 175 x8
Lying leg curls at 120 x9
Dumbbell shoulder press at 60 combined x8
Dumbbell lateral raise at 30 combined X10
All 3 to 4 sets
That's not everything, but most
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If you want to get it in food, you could do egg whites. When I was running regularly I'd have a banana before I left to give me a jump start and potassium to prevent muscle cramps and then eggs when I got home afterwards which helped my muscles repair and build back up and my leg muscles grew very fast that way. Not saying don't do the powders, but egg whites are high protein low calorie food.3
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SingingPilgrim wrote: »If you want to get it in food, you could do egg whites. When I was running regularly I'd have a banana before I left to give me a jump start and potassium to prevent muscle cramps and then eggs when I got home afterwards which helped my muscles repair and build back up and my leg muscles grew very fast that way. Not saying don't do the powders, but egg whites are high protein low calorie food.
This is solid actually, I just looked it up. A cup of egg whites is 125 calories and 26 grams of protein.
That's a carton every 2 days, but still solid.2 -
https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10611633/gaining-muscle-in-a-deficit/p1
Here is what the evidence suggest as it relates to muscle gains in a deficit.
But if you are losing at over 2lbs a week, its pretty unlikely to gain and may be unlikely to preserve, especially if you are trained.5 -
Is that bench press a typo? Seems quite.low compared to the other lifts1
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jls1leather9497 wrote: »Is that bench press a typo? Seems quite.low compared to the other lifts
It's not. I don't know why I can't bench a lot but I really can't bench a lot. My incline bench is lower and feels embarrassing.
It's weird, I can feel the chest muscles, and when I do other chest exercises it feels easier, but my bench is always weak.0 -
https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10611633/gaining-muscle-in-a-deficit/p1
Here is what the evidence suggest as it relates to muscle gains in a deficit.
But if you are losing at over 2lbs a week, its pretty unlikely to gain and may be unlikely to preserve, especially if you are trained.
This will actually be very useful going forward, thank you!0 -
Spadesheart wrote: »jls1leather9497 wrote: »Is that bench press a typo? Seems quite.low compared to the other lifts
It's not. I don't know why I can't bench a lot but I really can't bench a lot. My incline bench is lower and feels embarrassing.
It's weird, I can feel the chest muscles, and when I do other chest exercises it feels easier, but my bench is always weak.
Its possible that your form is not allowing for big numbers. I see it quite often in my gym. Or its possible that your programming is inhibiting gains. Below link has some good videos.
If you want to describe your program, we can address that issue, too.
https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10332083/which-lifting-program-is-the-best-for-you/p11 -
Spadesheart wrote: »jls1leather9497 wrote: »Is that bench press a typo? Seems quite.low compared to the other lifts
It's not. I don't know why I can't bench a lot but I really can't bench a lot. My incline bench is lower and feels embarrassing.
It's weird, I can feel the chest muscles, and when I do other chest exercises it feels easier, but my bench is always weak.
Its possible that your form is not allowing for big numbers. I see it quite often in my gym. Or its possible that your programming is inhibiting gains. Below link has some good videos.
If you want to describe your program, we can address that issue, too.
https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10332083/which-lifting-program-is-the-best-for-you/p1
This is mostly the regimen suggested by the Jefit workout tracking app. They suggest a regiment, which I tweaked to get it to something that was easier to do in my gym setting, as well as adding in 1-2 cardio days along with the 4 weight training days.
I posted this for critique here the other day and users suggested I split up the core day into the other 3. I tried that a couple days ago but I was too weak to handle the other exercises. I'm going to give it another try with better fuel, and putting the core exercises at the end and see if that works better, otherwise giving core it's own day back.
This is what I'm doing right now:
Chest and triceps
-Barbell bench press
-machine fly
-dips (I still suck at these)
-barbell incline bench press (also still suck at this)
-Rope tricep pushdown on cable machine
Back, Bicep and Forearm
-Barbell deadlift
-Barbell bent over row
-Barbell curl
-Reverse barbell bent over row
-Wide grip lat pulldown
-Either incline dumbbell curls or alternating dumbbell hammer curls
Shoulders and Legs
-Squats
-Barbell shrug
-Barbell standing military press (just added this, haven't done it yet)
-Machine lying leg curls
-Dumbbell shoulder press
-Dumbbell lateral raise (still suck at this)
-Leg press
Core
-Planks
-Leg raise
-Decline crunches with weight (pretty sure I'm holding the weight wrong)
-Cable standing oblique crunch (definitely doing this wrong)
-Rotary torso machine
-Ab crunch machine
Cardio
-1-2 days 45 mins to 1 hour on elliptical or AMT machine with high resistance. According to the machine, this usually ends up being 1000-1200 calories.
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Spadesheart wrote: »Spadesheart wrote: »jls1leather9497 wrote: »Is that bench press a typo? Seems quite.low compared to the other lifts
It's not. I don't know why I can't bench a lot but I really can't bench a lot. My incline bench is lower and feels embarrassing.
It's weird, I can feel the chest muscles, and when I do other chest exercises it feels easier, but my bench is always weak.
Its possible that your form is not allowing for big numbers. I see it quite often in my gym. Or its possible that your programming is inhibiting gains. Below link has some good videos.
If you want to describe your program, we can address that issue, too.
https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10332083/which-lifting-program-is-the-best-for-you/p1
This is mostly the regimen suggested by the Jefit workout tracking app. They suggest a regiment, which I tweaked to get it to something that was easier to do in my gym setting, as well as adding in 1-2 cardio days along with the 4 weight training days.
I posted this for critique here the other day and users suggested I split up the core day into the other 3. I tried that a couple days ago but I was too weak to handle the other exercises. I'm going to give it another try with better fuel, and putting the core exercises at the end and see if that works better, otherwise giving core it's own day back.
This is what I'm doing right now:
Chest and triceps
-Barbell bench press
-machine fly
-dips (I still suck at these)
-barbell incline bench press (also still suck at this)
-Rope tricep pushdown on cable machine
Back, Bicep and Forearm
-Barbell deadlift
-Barbell bent over row
-Barbell curl
-Reverse barbell bent over row
-Wide grip lat pulldown
-Either incline dumbbell curls or alternating dumbbell hammer curls
Shoulders and Legs
-Squats
-Barbell shrug
-Barbell standing military press (just added this, haven't done it yet)
-Machine lying leg curls
-Dumbbell shoulder press
-Dumbbell lateral raise (still suck at this)
-Leg press
Core
-Planks
-Leg raise
-Decline crunches with weight (pretty sure I'm holding the weight wrong)
-Cable standing oblique crunch (definitely doing this wrong)
-Rotary torso machine
-Ab crunch machine
Cardio
-1-2 days 45 mins to 1 hour on elliptical or AMT machine with high resistance. According to the machine, this usually ends up being 1000-1200 calories.
Well part of the problem is lifting frequency. If you are only hitting chest 1x a week, its less than optimal.
How many reps and sets are you doing for each?0 -
Spadesheart wrote: »Spadesheart wrote: »jls1leather9497 wrote: »Is that bench press a typo? Seems quite.low compared to the other lifts
It's not. I don't know why I can't bench a lot but I really can't bench a lot. My incline bench is lower and feels embarrassing.
It's weird, I can feel the chest muscles, and when I do other chest exercises it feels easier, but my bench is always weak.
Its possible that your form is not allowing for big numbers. I see it quite often in my gym. Or its possible that your programming is inhibiting gains. Below link has some good videos.
If you want to describe your program, we can address that issue, too.
https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10332083/which-lifting-program-is-the-best-for-you/p1
This is mostly the regimen suggested by the Jefit workout tracking app. They suggest a regiment, which I tweaked to get it to something that was easier to do in my gym setting, as well as adding in 1-2 cardio days along with the 4 weight training days.
I posted this for critique here the other day and users suggested I split up the core day into the other 3. I tried that a couple days ago but I was too weak to handle the other exercises. I'm going to give it another try with better fuel, and putting the core exercises at the end and see if that works better, otherwise giving core it's own day back.
This is what I'm doing right now:
Chest and triceps
-Barbell bench press
-machine fly
-dips (I still suck at these)
-barbell incline bench press (also still suck at this)
-Rope tricep pushdown on cable machine
Back, Bicep and Forearm
-Barbell deadlift
-Barbell bent over row
-Barbell curl
-Reverse barbell bent over row
-Wide grip lat pulldown
-Either incline dumbbell curls or alternating dumbbell hammer curls
Shoulders and Legs
-Squats
-Barbell shrug
-Barbell standing military press (just added this, haven't done it yet)
-Machine lying leg curls
-Dumbbell shoulder press
-Dumbbell lateral raise (still suck at this)
-Leg press
Core
-Planks
-Leg raise
-Decline crunches with weight (pretty sure I'm holding the weight wrong)
-Cable standing oblique crunch (definitely doing this wrong)
-Rotary torso machine
-Ab crunch machine
Cardio
-1-2 days 45 mins to 1 hour on elliptical or AMT machine with high resistance. According to the machine, this usually ends up being 1000-1200 calories.
Well part of the problem is lifting frequency. If you are only hitting chest 1x a week, its less than optimal.
How many reps and sets are you doing for each?
6-10, aiming for 8 for 3-4 sets. Leg day is definitely my favourite, because it just feels like there's never a wall like there is with the upper body.
That's why I was really happy about splitting up core day, could hit the other three closer to twice a week, but it was kind of a fail the last time. I've never had a day I couldn't complete since starting so I took a couple rest days, to start again on Monday.
Would you suggest I just add bench to other days?0 -
Spadesheart wrote: »jls1leather9497 wrote: »Is that bench press a typo? Seems quite.low compared to the other lifts
It's not. I don't know why I can't bench a lot but I really can't bench a lot.
It's weird, I can feel the chest muscles, and when I do other chest exercises it feels easier, but my bench is always weak.
That's different for sure. I get the opposite thing - always been strong thru the shoulders and arms, so I have to concentrate on the chest doing the work.
BUT, bench press isnt.critical move anyway. Lots of people do it, meaning its popular, but your chest isnt.really for pushing, it's for "hugging" (bringing the arm across.the body sideways).
If you're a power lifter, maybe bench required. If you're looking for conditioning, there are many other exercises may work better. And in the end, again unless you're a power lifter, the numbers on the bar aren't really what matters.
Couple days ago I did a flat bench for the first time in quite a while. As a rule, I get BETTER chest activation with a pair of dumbbells. Same general movement, but your hands arent locked into linear movement ... it adds the crossing in action.
Do you utube? Check our Jeff on athlean-x
I like his 'work on your feet' approach, and his knowledge of anatomy and kinesiology are pretty good.
Sounds like you have an idea where you.want to go. Stay up and at it!1 -
Spadesheart wrote: »Spadesheart wrote: »Spadesheart wrote: »jls1leather9497 wrote: »Is that bench press a typo? Seems quite.low compared to the other lifts
It's not. I don't know why I can't bench a lot but I really can't bench a lot. My incline bench is lower and feels embarrassing.
It's weird, I can feel the chest muscles, and when I do other chest exercises it feels easier, but my bench is always weak.
Its possible that your form is not allowing for big numbers. I see it quite often in my gym. Or its possible that your programming is inhibiting gains. Below link has some good videos.
If you want to describe your program, we can address that issue, too.
https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10332083/which-lifting-program-is-the-best-for-you/p1
This is mostly the regimen suggested by the Jefit workout tracking app. They suggest a regiment, which I tweaked to get it to something that was easier to do in my gym setting, as well as adding in 1-2 cardio days along with the 4 weight training days.
I posted this for critique here the other day and users suggested I split up the core day into the other 3. I tried that a couple days ago but I was too weak to handle the other exercises. I'm going to give it another try with better fuel, and putting the core exercises at the end and see if that works better, otherwise giving core it's own day back.
This is what I'm doing right now:
Chest and triceps
-Barbell bench press
-machine fly
-dips (I still suck at these)
-barbell incline bench press (also still suck at this)
-Rope tricep pushdown on cable machine
Back, Bicep and Forearm
-Barbell deadlift
-Barbell bent over row
-Barbell curl
-Reverse barbell bent over row
-Wide grip lat pulldown
-Either incline dumbbell curls or alternating dumbbell hammer curls
Shoulders and Legs
-Squats
-Barbell shrug
-Barbell standing military press (just added this, haven't done it yet)
-Machine lying leg curls
-Dumbbell shoulder press
-Dumbbell lateral raise (still suck at this)
-Leg press
Core
-Planks
-Leg raise
-Decline crunches with weight (pretty sure I'm holding the weight wrong)
-Cable standing oblique crunch (definitely doing this wrong)
-Rotary torso machine
-Ab crunch machine
Cardio
-1-2 days 45 mins to 1 hour on elliptical or AMT machine with high resistance. According to the machine, this usually ends up being 1000-1200 calories.
Well part of the problem is lifting frequency. If you are only hitting chest 1x a week, its less than optimal.
How many reps and sets are you doing for each?
6-10, aiming for 8 for 3-4 sets. Leg day is definitely my favourite, because it just feels like there's never a wall like there is with the upper body.
That's why I was really happy about splitting up core day, could hit the other three closer to twice a week, but it was kind of a fail the last time. I've never had a day I couldn't complete since starting so I took a couple rest days, to start again on Monday.
Would you suggest I just add bench to other days?
I would suggest getting on a program aligned to your goals. If you want to get strong, than a program focused on 8-12 reps is not appropriate. If you are looking for maximum strength gains than a full body like StrongLift may be better. If you like a mixture of strength and hypertrophy, than PHUL is probably better.
Either way, increasing the frequency on those core compound lifts will be more ideal. And if you want, add core at the end if the day.1 -
jls1leather9497 wrote: »Spadesheart wrote: »jls1leather9497 wrote: »Is that bench press a typo? Seems quite.low compared to the other lifts
It's not. I don't know why I can't bench a lot but I really can't bench a lot.
It's weird, I can feel the chest muscles, and when I do other chest exercises it feels easier, but my bench is always weak.
That's different for sure. I get the opposite thing - always been strong thru the shoulders and arms, so I have to concentrate on the chest doing the work.
BUT, bench press isnt.critical move anyway. Lots of people do it, meaning its popular, but your chest isnt.really for pushing, it's for "hugging" (bringing the arm across.the body sideways).
If you're a power lifter, maybe bench required. If you're looking for conditioning, there are many other exercises may work better. And in the end, again unless you're a power lifter, the numbers on the bar aren't really what matters.
Couple days ago I did a flat bench for the first time in quite a while. As a rule, I get BETTER chest activation with a pair of dumbbells. Same general movement, but your hands arent locked into linear movement ... it adds the crossing in action.
Do you utube? Check our Jeff on athlean-x
I like his 'work on your feet' approach, and his knowledge of anatomy and kinesiology are pretty good.
Sounds like you have an idea where you.want to go. Stay up and at it!
If one wants to get strong on bench, dumbbells won't cut it. There are limitations to how much additional volume can be pushed using dumbbells. Don't get me wrong, they are certainly beneficial as an accessory move, but there are direct correlations with bench to chest size, but not with dumbbells.2 -
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jls1leather9497 wrote: »Spadesheart wrote: »jls1leather9497 wrote: »Is that bench press a typo? Seems quite.low compared to the other lifts
It's not. I don't know why I can't bench a lot but I really can't bench a lot.
It's weird, I can feel the chest muscles, and when I do other chest exercises it feels easier, but my bench is always weak.
That's different for sure. I get the opposite thing - always been strong thru the shoulders and arms, so I have to concentrate on the chest doing the work.
BUT, bench press isnt.critical move anyway. Lots of people do it, meaning its popular, but your chest isnt.really for pushing, it's for "hugging" (bringing the arm across.the body sideways).
If you're a power lifter, maybe bench required. If you're looking for conditioning, there are many other exercises may work better. And in the end, again unless you're a power lifter, the numbers on the bar aren't really what matters.
Couple days ago I did a flat bench for the first time in quite a while. As a rule, I get BETTER chest activation with a pair of dumbbells. Same general movement, but your hands arent locked into linear movement ... it adds the crossing in action.
Do you utube? Check our Jeff on athlean-x
I like his 'work on your feet' approach, and his knowledge of anatomy and kinesiology are pretty good.
Sounds like you have an idea where you.want to go. Stay up and at it!
Thanks man, I will keep an eye out. I know sometimes you can make quick strides when something just clicks to, I'm guessing I just haven't hit that with bench. There's likely more in the tank that will just come with form.0
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