Wait, what? There is more than one way to progress?!

PikaKnight

Seriously though, I agree to a certain degree with what someone here is saying. I too have read almost nothing but 'lift now, and lift heavy' on loads of boards on here (even before I joined a few lifting groups). Like cardio isn't good for you or at all necessary. Some people might just want to be slim and look like your common or garden celeb, or an athlete on the front of Health and Fitness mag, or just a smaller version of themselves. Not everyone wants to be able to see their own traps or feel their delts or bench 900lbs. I understand nobody is forcing women to lift anything at all, but it does seem to form the majority of the advice I read on this website. Of course it's helpful to getting a leaner, tighter, firmer body but not all women want to look like Serena Willams/Chyna/Jaime Easson. Some just want to look like Kim Kardashian, Beyonce, Kate Beckinsale or Angelina Jolie (ie toned but not necessarily with much muscle definition).

People do need to understand that one size might fit most but it doesn't fit all. I personally do lift, but I love the treadmill as much as anyone can love a treadmill (ie not much), I like doing actual cardio which will come in useful when running for a bus, and actually, maybe Running Woman with the Nice Legs only does cardio. My friend does no weights whatsoever, just runs or skates everywhere. She looks amazing (exactly like the sort of woman you see on the front of Health and Fitness magazine). Probably part genetics, part luck, part hard work, but no part weights. So it is possible to look good without lifting weights.

Anyway apologies if this is slightly off the original topic, or if this topic was in the wrong place in the first place.

To put out there - Angelina Jolie and Kate Beckinsale do include weight training/lifting and that's how they get that "toned" look. :flowerforyou:

But that doesn't mean they are deadlifting a fire engine every week.

I dare say that no one here is suggestion anyone dead lift a fire engine, sooo


In fact all anyone ever says is lift heavy for *you* which means heavy for that individual. Heavy for me started with 15lb dumbbell squats, and went from there. No one is saying 'Heavy has to start with squatting your body weight'.

Exactly. And btw - Angelina DOES deadlift....probably every week too

But have you seen this MFPer?

http://www.myfitnesspal.com/Sarauk2sf

She has the body type along whom you are talking about and she her deadlift PR is 325lbs

ETA: The point is that a lot of the body types people tend to want, they don't realize it does require some weight training and even heavy lifting. and I've not met one person who discounts cardio and says NOT to do it at all. But when it comes to body composition, weights being the main focus tends to get the desired results....as most success stories on MFP tend to reveal.

LorinaLynn

What I think is funny is how everyone on this forum encourages all women to lift weights, and lift heavy, and that this is the best way to get a smokin' bod and you won't get bulky from it. There is this girl at the gym I go to who never does anything except run on a treadmill and occasionally the stepper machine and she has an incredible pair of legs, low BF, great definition yet still very slim and feminine. Most women would love to have her figure, yet she doesn't lift weights at all.

From my teens to mid 20s, I had low bodyfat, great legs, fantastic *kitten*, tiny waist and didn't do one lick of exercise, and ate like crap. I certainly wouldn't recommend the Sit on Your *kitten* and drink Mountain Dew and eat Raspberry Zingers diet to anyone, though. :laugh: And while I looked great, I wasn't the least bit fit.

Just because someone has a great body without lifting doesn't mean there's no benefits to it, or that she wouldn't benefit from lifting. I know quite a few runners who have frequent injuries due to lack of cross training.

CoderGal

Seriously though, I agree to a certain degree with what someone here is saying. I too have read almost nothing but 'lift now, and lift heavy' on loads of boards on here (even before I joined a few lifting groups). Like cardio isn't good for you or at all necessary. Some people might just want to be slim and look like your common or garden celeb, or an athlete on the front of Health and Fitness mag, or just a smaller version of themselves. Not everyone wants to be able to see their own traps or feel their delts or bench 900lbs. I understand nobody is forcing women to lift anything at all, but it does seem to form the majority of the advice I read on this website. Of course it's helpful to getting a leaner, tighter, firmer body but not all women want to look like Serena Willams/Chyna/Jaime Easson. Some just want to look like Kim Kardashian, Beyonce, Kate Beckinsale or Angelina Jolie (ie toned but not necessarily with much muscle definition).

People do need to understand that one size might fit most but it doesn't fit all. I personally do lift, but I love the treadmill as much as anyone can love a treadmill (ie not much), I like doing actual cardio which will come in useful when running for a bus, and actually, maybe Running Woman with the Nice Legs only does cardio. My friend does no weights whatsoever, just runs or skates everywhere. She looks amazing (exactly like the sort of woman you see on the front of Health and Fitness magazine). Probably part genetics, part luck, part hard work, but no part weights. So it is possible to look good without lifting weights.

Anyway apologies if this is slightly off the original topic, or if this topic was in the wrong place in the first place.

It's totally possible to look good period without lifting weights. But for those who ask for advice on how to lean out, the most efficent way is to lift...and lift heavy.

I don't want to be hulked or lift 900lbs. I just don't want to feel chubby. Heavy lifting helps greatly with that. And the people you have mentioned do lift...Just because you lift heavy doesn't mean you're going for the bodybuilding hulked out look. I'm pretty new to lifting and over the next month I'm hoping to deadlift my bodyweight. I'm already over 100lbs. And I wouldn't consider myself a hulk:

CoderGal

Seriously though, I agree to a certain degree with what someone here is saying. I too have read almost nothing but 'lift now, and lift heavy' on loads of boards on here (even before I joined a few lifting groups). Like cardio isn't good for you or at all necessary. Some people might just want to be slim and look like your common or garden celeb, or an athlete on the front of Health and Fitness mag, or just a smaller version of themselves. Not everyone wants to be able to see their own traps or feel their delts or bench 900lbs. I understand nobody is forcing women to lift anything at all, but it does seem to form the majority of the advice I read on this website. Of course it's helpful to getting a leaner, tighter, firmer body but not all women want to look like Serena Willams/Chyna/Jaime Easson. Some just want to look like Kim Kardashian, Beyonce, Kate Beckinsale or Angelina Jolie (ie toned but not necessarily with much muscle definition).

People do need to understand that one size might fit most but it doesn't fit all. I personally do lift, but I love the treadmill as much as anyone can love a treadmill (ie not much), I like doing actual cardio which will come in useful when running for a bus, and actually, maybe Running Woman with the Nice Legs only does cardio. My friend does no weights whatsoever, just runs or skates everywhere. She looks amazing (exactly like the sort of woman you see on the front of Health and Fitness magazine). Probably part genetics, part luck, part hard work, but no part weights. So it is possible to look good without lifting weights.

Anyway apologies if this is slightly off the original topic, or if this topic was in the wrong place in the first place.

To put out there - Angelina Jolie and Kate Beckinsale do include weight training/lifting and that's how they get that "toned" look. :flowerforyou:

But that doesn't mean they are deadlifting a fire engine every week.

I dare say that no one here is suggestion anyone dead lift a fire engine, sooo


In fact all anyone ever says is lift heavy for *you* which means heavy for that individual. Heavy for me started with 15lb dumbbell squats, and went from there. No one is saying 'Heavy has to start with squatting your body weight'.

Exactly. And btw - Angelina DOES deadlift....probably every week too

But have you seen this MFPer?

http://www.myfitnesspal.com/Sarauk2sf

She has the body type along whom you are talking about and she her deadlift PR is 325lbs

ETA: The point is that a lot of the body types people tend to want, they don't realize it does require some weight training and even heavy lifting. and I've not met one person who discounts cardio and says NOT to do it at all. But when it comes to body composition, weights being the main focus tends to get the desired results....as most success stories on MFP tend to reveal.

This lady deadlifts over 200:

^fittiephd, I would not be complaining if I looked like her lol.

DavPul

It's a shame that very often, as soon as anyone offers an alternate approach to the mainstream on here they are generally met with the same unfriendly ridicule for no other reason than to put people down. Open your eyes people.

Once again I ask who is doing this? The OP uses accusatory language in her OP, then says she doesn't want to argue. Now you're accusing people of put downs. Where? If anything I, and others try to make people aware of the limitations of various types of training, heavy lifting included. And part of that is telling people that there are no magical exercises that turn women into dancers of lengthen muscles.

In regards to your other statement about destabilizing, it has it's place and it has its limitations. At a certain point, a person doesn't become better at doing something via destabilization, they just become better at doing it while destabilized. Going from bodyweight squats to bosu squats doesn't build awesome legs or turn you into a super squatter, it just makes you good at bosu squats.

Will_Thrust_For_Candy

I actually would like to clarify something.....just probably to ease my mind more than anything else.

I didn't start this thread as an "anti-lifting" thread.

I fully believe, 1000% that women should lift. Lifting has done the most phenomenal things for my body and my mind (especially my *kitten* :laugh: )

The reason I started this thread was an attempt to show ladies that *aren't* as familiar with lifting as some of us are, that there are ways they can progress besides just the weight on the bar. That if they are limited by something....whether it be a home gym, physical limitations, budgets, what have you, there are effective ways to weight train that are not limited to only increasing weight every workout (clearly at some point the weight *does* have to go up....I'm not implying otherwise :laugh: )

Okay, I feel better now :bigsmile: :flowerforyou:

Will_Thrust_For_Candy

It's a shame that very often, as soon as anyone offers an alternate approach to the mainstream on here they are generally met with the same unfriendly ridicule for no other reason than to put people down. Open your eyes people.

Once again I ask who is doing this? The OP uses accusatory language in her OP, then says she doesn't want to argue. Now you're accusing people of put downs. Where? If anything I, and others try to make people aware of the limitations of various types of training, heavy lifting included. And part of that is telling people that there are no magical exercises that turn women into dancers of lengthen muscles.

In regards to your other statement about destabilizing, it has it's place and it has its limitations. At a certain point, a person doesn't become better at doing something via destabilization, they just become better at doing it while destabilized. Going from bodyweight squats to bosu squats doesn't build awesome legs or turn you into a super squatter, it just makes you good at bosu squats.

I simply stated something that I have noticed. I didn't use an accusatory tone nor am I going to flame anyone. I'm really not sure why a simple observation and my feelings about my observation combined with a link about progression turned into something so negative. There is nothing to argue, hence the reason I stated I don't want to argue.

There are many people that are here are happy to provide information to others. DavPul, you are one of those people and I hope that sometimes I can be one of those people too.

Yogi_Carl

It's a shame that very often, as soon as anyone offers an alternate approach to the mainstream on here they are generally met with the same unfriendly ridicule for no other reason than to put people down. Open your eyes people.

Once again I ask who is doing this? The OP uses accusatory language in her OP, then says she doesn't want to argue. Now you're accusing people of put downs. Where? If anything I, and others try to make people aware of the limitations of various types of training, heavy lifting included. And part of that is telling people that there are no magical exercises that turn women into dancers of lengthen muscles.

In regards to your other statement about destabilizing, it has it's place and it has its limitations. At a certain point, a person doesn't become better at doing something via destabilization, they just become better at doing it while destabilized. Going from bodyweight squats to bosu squats doesn't build awesome legs or turn you into a super squatter, it just makes you good at bosu squats.

I am sorry DavPul if you took that personally. You, along with a few others have given consistently good advice and are vital in showing people new to training a solid foundation upon which to progress. Thank you.

However, I do stand by what I posted. There are at least an equal number of posters who simply wish to ridicule people who post questions and put them down. I didn't say you were one of them; far from it.

===
Regards destabilization, I think if you practised a movement with destabilization for a few weeks and then went back to the same movement without destabiliation you would find you would have improved in strength, possibly because you had also developed the stabilising muscles around the main muscles being worked.

CoderGal

It's a shame that very often, as soon as anyone offers an alternate approach to the mainstream on here they are generally met with the same unfriendly ridicule for no other reason than to put people down. Open your eyes people.

Once again I ask who is doing this? The OP uses accusatory language in her OP, then says she doesn't want to argue. Now you're accusing people of put downs. Where? If anything I, and others try to make people aware of the limitations of various types of training, heavy lifting included. And part of that is telling people that there are no magical exercises that turn women into dancers of lengthen muscles.

In regards to your other statement about destabilizing, it has it's place and it has its limitations. At a certain point, a person doesn't become better at doing something via destabilization, they just become better at doing it while destabilized. Going from bodyweight squats to bosu squats doesn't build awesome legs or turn you into a super squatter, it just makes you good at bosu squats.

I simply stated something that I have noticed. I didn't use an accusatory tone nor am I going to flame anyone. I'm really not sure why a simple observation and my feelings about my observation combined with a link about progression turned into something so negative. There is nothing to argue, hence the reason I stated I don't want to argue.

There are many people that are here are happy to provide information to others. DavPul, you are one of those people and I hope that sometimes I can be one of those people too.

Yeah I'm with DavPul, I don't get your observations because I've never seen them, so I'm kind of skeptical. And I've been around for some time. I don't think DavPul is trying to turn it into something negative. If you just answered the question I'm sure things would move on. I don't think he thinks hard enough to put feelings in threads

I agree with what he says: "i don't think anyone here argues against progressing but i guess i could be wrong. is there an example somewhere you could link to. " while you say "unfriendly ridicule for no other reason than to put people down"

PikaKnight

It's a shame that very often, as soon as anyone offers an alternate approach to the mainstream on here they are generally met with the same unfriendly ridicule for no other reason than to put people down. Open your eyes people.

Once again I ask who is doing this? The OP uses accusatory language in her OP, then says she doesn't want to argue. Now you're accusing people of put downs. Where? If anything I, and others try to make people aware of the limitations of various types of training, heavy lifting included. And part of that is telling people that there are no magical exercises that turn women into dancers of lengthen muscles.

In regards to your other statement about destabilizing, it has it's place and it has its limitations. At a certain point, a person doesn't become better at doing something via destabilization, they just become better at doing it while destabilized. Going from bodyweight squats to bosu squats doesn't build awesome legs or turn you into a super squatter, it just makes you good at bosu squats.

I simply stated something that I have noticed. I didn't use an accusatory tone nor am I going to flame anyone. I'm really not sure why a simple observation and my feelings about my observation combined with a link about progression turned into something so negative. There is nothing to argue, hence the reason I stated I don't want to argue.

There are many people that are here are happy to provide information to others. DavPul, you are one of those people and I hope that sometimes I can be one of those people too.

Yeah I'm with DavPul, I don't get your observations because I've never seen them, so I'm kind of skeptical. And I've been around for some time. I don't think DavPul is trying to turn it into something negative. If you just answered the question I'm sure things would move on. I don't think he thinks hard enough to put feelings in threads

Yeah, most people I've seen will first recommend the barbell/free weights, but if OP states they don't have access, the same people are quick to offer alternative exercises...like programs that are bodyweight exercises (YAYOG, Convict Conditioning, NerdFitness, etc).

It's when people try to equate certain dvd programs to the equivalency to weight training (when they are actually endurance training) is when I see people getting into arguments and correcting this misconception, not tearing down for the most part.

phatguerilla

What I think is funny is how everyone on this forum encourages all women to lift weights, and lift heavy, and that this is the best way to get a smokin' bod and you won't get bulky from it. There is this girl at the gym I go to who never does anything except run on a treadmill and occasionally the stepper machine and she has an incredible pair of legs, low BF, great definition yet still very slim and feminine. Most women would love to have her figure, yet she doesn't lift weights at all.

She is more than likely doing more than you are seeing then.

That is certainly a possibility but if she does she isn't doing it at my gym. But it would seem strange that she comes to the gym at all if she is lifting at home. I think she is still in college as she only comes to the gym in the summertime. I have wondered if she is a competitive runner because of how much she runs but I don't see a competition runner doing treadmill runs all summer long, it just doesn't fit.

You only see her training in the summertime but you think you know her training plans????? OOOOOOOOHKAYYYYYYY

CoderGal

It's a shame that very often, as soon as anyone offers an alternate approach to the mainstream on here they are generally met with the same unfriendly ridicule for no other reason than to put people down. Open your eyes people.

Once again I ask who is doing this? The OP uses accusatory language in her OP, then says she doesn't want to argue. Now you're accusing people of put downs. Where? If anything I, and others try to make people aware of the limitations of various types of training, heavy lifting included. And part of that is telling people that there are no magical exercises that turn women into dancers of lengthen muscles.

In regards to your other statement about destabilizing, it has it's place and it has its limitations. At a certain point, a person doesn't become better at doing something via destabilization, they just become better at doing it while destabilized. Going from bodyweight squats to bosu squats doesn't build awesome legs or turn you into a super squatter, it just makes you good at bosu squats.

I simply stated something that I have noticed. I didn't use an accusatory tone nor am I going to flame anyone. I'm really not sure why a simple observation and my feelings about my observation combined with a link about progression turned into something so negative. There is nothing to argue, hence the reason I stated I don't want to argue.

There are many people that are here are happy to provide information to others. DavPul, you are one of those people and I hope that sometimes I can be one of those people too.

Yeah I'm with DavPul, I don't get your observations because I've never seen them, so I'm kind of skeptical. And I've been around for some time. I don't think DavPul is trying to turn it into something negative. If you just answered the question I'm sure things would move on. I don't think he thinks hard enough to put feelings in threads

Yeah, most people I've seen will first recommend the barbell/free weights, but if OP states they don't have access, the same people are quick to offer alternative exercises...like programs that are bodyweight exercises (YAYOG, Convict Conditioning, NerdFitness, etc).

It's when people try to equate certain dvd programs to the equivalency to weight training (when they are actually endurance training) is when I see people getting into arguments and correcting this misconception, not tearing down for the most part.

And from what I've found this is something that needs to be done because many of the people promoting it are doing so completely ignorant. For example there was a thread not to long ago where a girl was promoting her 'heavy lifting' with 5lb weights. Yep, people jumped on her. And she got defensive because after gazillion reps they 'felt heavy for her'. In the fitness world "Heavy lifting" generally means 'heavy for you' to lift 85% of the heaviest weight you can pull with proper form (for about 5 reps). I think a lot of people are ignorant of that. That person didn't realize this and later agreed, learned something, and corrected herself. Yay. Because of these threads many people will think if they do these DVD type programs they'll get stronger. Then they feel scammed when they go out gardening and their arms get tired because they're likely lifting more then that program did. They realize they cannot lift heavier and heavier things and they're not getting firmer unless they continuously lose weight. I'm thankful for the people who corrected those before I learned these things, and I'll continue doing the same thing. I always try to keep in mind that not everyone knows these things, so I try to keep polite as long as the other is.

But I agree, particularly when starting off, you don't need a barbell to progress. There are many programs out there. If you're doing "heavy lifting", jogging with dumbbells isn't it.

Zaniejane

OP, I appreciate the sentiment that people may measure progression in different ways and that working out with dumbells may be quite alright depending upon your goals. It seems like the rest is either off topic or a war on semantics. I still like your original post. :drinker:

Will_Thrust_For_Candy

Yeah I'm with DavPul, I don't get your observations because I've never seen them, so I'm kind of skeptical. And I've been around for some time. I don't think DavPul is trying to turn it into something negative. If you just answered the question I'm sure things would move on. I don't think he thinks hard enough to put feelings in threads

I agree with what he says: "i don't think anyone here argues against progressing but i guess i could be wrong. is there an example somewhere you could link to. " while you say "unfriendly ridicule for no other reason than to put people down"

Apparently I came across in a way I wasn't intending....my apologies for doing so. I already posted my intent, so I won't rehash that.

I never did say "unfriendly ridicule for no other reason than to put people down" though, so I'm really unsure where that came from.

CoderGal

What I think is funny is how everyone on this forum encourages all women to lift weights, and lift heavy, and that this is the best way to get a smokin' bod and you won't get bulky from it. There is this girl at the gym I go to who never does anything except run on a treadmill and occasionally the stepper machine and she has an incredible pair of legs, low BF, great definition yet still very slim and feminine. Most women would love to have her figure, yet she doesn't lift weights at all.

She is more than likely doing more than you are seeing then.

That is certainly a possibility but if she does she isn't doing it at my gym. But it would seem strange that she comes to the gym at all if she is lifting at home. I think she is still in college as she only comes to the gym in the summertime. I have wondered if she is a competitive runner because of how much she runs but I don't see a competition runner doing treadmill runs all summer long, it just doesn't fit.

You only see her training in the summertime but you think you know her training plans????? OOOOOOOOHKAYYYYYYY

I'm one of those lifting at home but goes to the gym and jumps on treadmills people. My legs deadlift over 100lbs.

Yogi_Carl

I never did say "unfriendly ridicule for no other reason than to put people down" though, so I'm really unsure where that came from.

I am sorry to say - that was me - getting on my high horse. (see further up the thread) Sorry, I'll keep my noise down.

edit: spelling

Will_Thrust_For_Candy

I'm really unsure where in this thread I said that DVD programs are equal to proper strength training.

As per usual, the topic has gone completely off track and into never never land.

DavPul

.... Regards destabilization, I think if you practised a movement with destabilization for a few weeks and then went back to the same movement without destabiliation you would find you would have improved in strength, possibly because you had also developed the stabilising muscles around the main muscles being worked.

We're not to far off here. While i don't believe you would have improved your strength, I would say that you have increased your functionality. And that's a benefit. Obv destabilizing different exercises in different ways will have different effects, but usually increased balance and agility are the outcomes. And those are good things that can lead to heavier lifts and better day to day life. Helping a friend move apartments more closely resembles a bosu squat that a barbell squat, imo.

Zaniejane

Ok my turn to continue going slightly off topic:

I'm one of those people who sits on the couch and ices her shoulder for a year while occasionally (less than weekly) deadlifting a barbell, doing bodyweight squats and therapy band exercises or going for a run. I have a very weak upper body and my deltoids and biceps have atrophied this year but I still have the appearance of being lean with muscular definition idk, genetics maybe? I'm not proud of my lack of strength but I am proud to be lighter and leaner. I used to describe myself as "skinny fat" because I learned the term here on mfp. But I don't do that any more.

I can't wait to lift heavy, but when I do I hope I still admire my amazingly strong muscular girlfriend who got where she is today with her dumbells. She has been working out for over twenty years and will continue for the rest of her life I believe.


I'm also excited to bike and swim and dance when my shoulder is better.

DavPul

Hey, know what, I never felt like the OP was issuing a 'lifting vs other stuff' challenge. I was just making a point about the way she phrased the OP and the title. So I took a dig at the language, then moved on to say that I thought the progressions mentioned in her link did have value, IMHO.

Apologies if my dig derailed the thread or cast the OP in a light that I don't believe she deserves