Protein, protein, protein! Or not?
biggs097
Posts: 4 Member
I’m one of those male vegetarians that gets odd looks from just about everyone. No, I didn’t start recently. It seems to be the cool thing to do these days. I started well over 10 years ago.
Anyway. Protein. I’ve learned over the years that the crazy amount of protein the media pushes on people is arguably false. Or is it? How much protein does a person really need for optimal body function?
I don’t need the body builder’s answer here. I’ve been there, eating some 200+ grams a day. I wouldn’t mind hearing the opinion of everyone. I’m curious to see if there’s a general consensus? Or if the opinions are all over the map.
Anyway. Protein. I’ve learned over the years that the crazy amount of protein the media pushes on people is arguably false. Or is it? How much protein does a person really need for optimal body function?
I don’t need the body builder’s answer here. I’ve been there, eating some 200+ grams a day. I wouldn’t mind hearing the opinion of everyone. I’m curious to see if there’s a general consensus? Or if the opinions are all over the map.
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Replies
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I believe that will vary from person to person - their goals, how active they are, if protein satiates them...
I have found that I feel best and with more energy when I get at least 70 grams of protein.
Aside from bodybuilding media, I don't see the media in general pushing any specific amount of protein on people. Nor do I see many people that are not into fitness worrying about how much protein they get.2 -
0.6-0.8g of protein per lb of bodyweight. (Or goal bodyweight if you're very overweight)
I agree that it only seems to be the diet & fitness industry who are pushing large amounts of protein. Its the trendy thing at the moment. My husband laughs at me as I'll try anything that's protein enriched...(cereal/snickers etc etc) but protein keeps me satiated so it's worth it!1 -
Protein needs are all over the place for optimal results for different individuals in different situations so protein recommendations are, and should be, all over the place too. There is plenty of evidence than the general RDA is set very low and is inappropriate for many.
Someone exercising a lot more protein is a good idea, not just weight training but endurance cardio too.
People dieting would be well advised to eat more that the minimum.
Older people should have more too.
Not sure what you mean by "crazy amounts" but yes there is definitely a marketing element currently active - like spoiling a Snickers bar by adding some extra protein that makes it taste like chalk!
A good read on the subject with links to research papers....
https://examine.com/nutrition/how-much-protein-do-you-need/
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I'm guessing the person who clicked woo doesn't think Snickers Protein bar tastes like chalk?
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Protein needs are all over the place for optimal results for different individuals in different situations so protein recommendations are, and should be, all over the place too. There is plenty of evidence than the general RDA is set very low and is inappropriate for many.
Someone exercising a lot more protein is a good idea, not just weight training but endurance cardio too.
People dieting would be well advised to eat more that the minimum.
Older people should have more too.
Not sure what you mean by "crazy amounts" but yes there is definitely a marketing element currently active - like spoiling a Snickers bar by adding some extra protein that makes it taste like chalk!
A good read on the subject with links to research papers....
https://examine.com/nutrition/how-much-protein-do-you-need/
my issue with the protein snickers that i tried was that it had 1 peanut on it.... one!!!! :grumble:4 -
I don't worry about protein intake but when I spot check over on another site I'm always above the recommended intake (46g is my target and I usually end up in the 60g-80g range/I'm a 40 year old female who's only intentional exercise is walking). I'm doing the DASH protocol and get my protein from plant sources, dairy and then fish a few times a week.4
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As a vegetarian, I would think your concern is not just quantity, but also quality of protein. If you are not getting "whole proteins" (proteins with all essential amino acids), then you may as well just eat carbs. The entire point of eating protein is to build and maintain lean tissue, so you are defeating that purpose if you don't get whole proteins.16
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I was going to link the same examine piece that sijomial did. It has links to studies.
Based on that and other research, I am convinced that there is a benefit -- especially when at a deficit or if you are in a risk group for muscle loss/hard gainer or focused on athletic performance to some extent -- to keeping protein higher than the minimum RDA for optimal results.
But that doesn't mean crazy high, more like .65-.8 g per lb of a healthy goal weight.
My preferred weight (within a healthy BMI) is 120, so for me that means 78-96 g. If losing I prefer to be at the higher end of that (since I also have a running training schedule and would like to build or maintain muscle, and am a woman in my late 40s, so getting into a risk group for having trouble maintaining or building muscle). At maintenance I don't care where in that range I fall, and I usually find it not too hard to be within that range even when eating 100% plant based (with just vegetarian I'm usually closer to the higher end). I rarely consume protein powder.4 -
midwesterner85 wrote: »As a vegetarian, I would think your concern is not just quantity, but also quality of protein. If you are not getting "whole proteins" (proteins with all essential amino acids), then you may as well just eat carbs. The entire point of eating protein is to build and maintain lean tissue, so you are defeating that purpose if you don't get whole proteins.
It is important that we get all the essential amino acids, but our bodies can combine them from different foods. The idea that we have to eat "whole proteins" isn't supported by any solid science. Assuming OP eats a reasonably varied diet, this probably isn't a concern.14 -
I have my macros currently set to try to get 50% protein.
New to this, so we'll see how that begins to develope.
Weekly nutrient report says I'm AVERAGING 135g per day. That's UNDER 50% so far, but I'll stay at it.
Ih, that's 135g per day WITHOUT supplements.5 -
As a vegetarian of 20+ years I have gone through many phases. I recently focused on getting more protein and significantly noticed improvements in satiety and energy. My goal weight is 150 and I am for about 120g a day. When I do that I find I can keep my total calorie count lower because I am not hungry all the time. I have recently reincorporated homemade seitan and edamame into my diet to help with this.0
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janejellyroll wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »As a vegetarian, I would think your concern is not just quantity, but also quality of protein. If you are not getting "whole proteins" (proteins with all essential amino acids), then you may as well just eat carbs. The entire point of eating protein is to build and maintain lean tissue, so you are defeating that purpose if you don't get whole proteins.
It is important that we get all the essential amino acids, but our bodies can combine them from different foods. The idea that we have to eat "whole proteins" isn't supported by any solid science. Assuming OP eats a reasonably varied diet, this probably isn't a concern.
I agree - the same can be accomplished if OP is ensuring that he is getting all the essential amino acids by eating a vegetarian meal carefully designed to be sure that is happening. He is then basically creating his own whole protein food.7 -
midwesterner85 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »As a vegetarian, I would think your concern is not just quantity, but also quality of protein. If you are not getting "whole proteins" (proteins with all essential amino acids), then you may as well just eat carbs. The entire point of eating protein is to build and maintain lean tissue, so you are defeating that purpose if you don't get whole proteins.
It is important that we get all the essential amino acids, but our bodies can combine them from different foods. The idea that we have to eat "whole proteins" isn't supported by any solid science. Assuming OP eats a reasonably varied diet, this probably isn't a concern.
I agree - the same can be accomplished if OP is ensuring that he is getting all the essential amino acids by eating a vegetarian meal carefully designed to be sure that is happening. He is then basically creating his own whole protein food.
It really doesn't have to be "carefully designed." A reasonable amount of variety will do the trick without any effort necessary on OP's part.
The idea that vegetarians or vegans must combine proteins within a meal was a popular idea in the 1970s, but it turned out to be a myth. The author who initially popularized the idea later attempted to correct it, but it's one of those myths with a long shelf life. Bottom line: we do need all the essential amino acids, but we don't need to get them all in the same sitting for them to count.11 -
I log on Cron and find that when eating 100% plant based I generally have all the amino acids no problem without thinking about it. Of course, I typically eat some beans/lentils plus a variety of other foods that have some protein, but that's not "carefully designing" my diet. Certainly someone doing something more difficult like raw or a largely fruit based diet would have a harder time.
Someone eating vegetarian and including eggs and dairy will typically not really have to think about it at all.7 -
I log on Cron and find that when eating 100% plant based I generally have all the amino acids no problem without thinking about it. Of course, I typically eat some beans/lentils plus a variety of other foods that have some protein, but that's not "carefully designing" my diet. Certainly someone doing something more difficult like raw or a largely fruit based diet would have a harder time.
Someone eating vegetarian and including eggs and dairy will typically not really have to think about it at all.
I logged my (vegan) meals on Cron for over a year, never had an issue with getting all the amino acids. I didn't do any special planning, it was just something I happened to notice.
From what I've read, lysine is the amino acid that you're potentially likely to struggle with on a raw/fruit diet (in addition to possibly not getting enough protein overall). For people who are eating tofu, tempeh, and/or legumes regularly, it's less of a concern.6 -
That all sounds like a lot of effort to get enough quantities of all the essential amino acids, but obviously that is my perspective. If your perspective is that there is no work at all to pick up a few foods and you have what you need, then great!
Regardless of whether you feel like you have to "carefully design" your food or whether you "didn't do any special planning," my point that one must get all the essential amino acids stands.2 -
How does "I got it without thinking about it" and "I didn't do any special planning" = "a lot of effort"? Logging on Cron was not to make sure I got the necessary aminos, I was already logging there (as it's a superior site for logging if you eat mostly whole foods, IMO).
Also, janejellyroll and I were talking about diets without animal foods at all. If one is an ovo-lacto vegetarian, there is no need to worry about it. (If one is vegan/plant-based and eats soy and/or beans/lentils and otherwise a normal varied diet, it's also not an issue.)
OP is a vegetarian, so quite unlikely it's an issue he needs help with.8 -
How does "I got it without thinking about it" and "I didn't do any special planning" = "a lot of effort"?
As explained, that is my perspective based on the descriptions provided and my macro goals. It's ok if you don't have the same perspective and it is even ok if you don't understand how/why I have that perspective. To have that understanding, you would have to know me as well as I know myself... that means you would need to be aware of my minute-to-minute thoughts and experiences and to have known that for my entire life. No other person besides me could possibly have that same understanding. This is why it is ok to not understand how/why I have a particular viewpoint. I draw the line, though, when someone tells me I CAN'T have a particular perspective. I hope that isn't what you are doing here.9 -
midwesterner85 wrote: »That all sounds like a lot of effort to get enough quantities of all the essential amino acids, but obviously that is my perspective. If your perspective is that there is no work at all to pick up a few foods and you have what you need, then great!
Regardless of whether you feel like you have to "carefully design" your food or whether you "didn't do any special planning," my point that one must get all the essential amino acids stands.
What effort are you talking about? @lemurcat2 and I both shared that we both were able to get the essential amino acids without any special planning or effort and this is while eating only plants (while OP is likely including eggs and dairy which makes your warning even more unnecessary).
Because I require food to live and I also enjoy eating, I was doing what I'd be doing anyway. I was picking up anything special or out of the ordinary, I was just . . . eating. I wasn't logging on Cron to ensure I was getting enough, I was logging there for other reasons and I just happened to notice that it was never an issue over the entire year I was logging there.
Nobody is disputing that we need these essential amino acids. The only point of contention is whether or not a vegetarian or vegan diet must be "specially designed" in order to get them.7 -
midwesterner85 wrote: »How does "I got it without thinking about it" and "I didn't do any special planning" = "a lot of effort"?
As explained, that is my perspective based on the descriptions provided and my macro goals. It's ok if you don't have the same perspective and it is even ok if you don't understand how/why I have that perspective. To have that understanding, you would have to know me as well as I know myself... that means you would need to be aware of my minute-to-minute thoughts and experiences and to have known that for my entire life. No other person besides me could possibly have that same understanding. This is why it is ok to not understand how/why I have a particular viewpoint. I draw the line, though, when someone tells me I CAN'T have a particular perspective. I hope that isn't what you are doing here.
No, her post said "I generally have all the amino acids no problem without thinking about it" and when you said it sounded like it was "a lot of effort" she sought clarification, because what you said was the opposite of what she said her experience was.9 -
midwesterner85 wrote: »That all sounds like a lot of effort to get enough quantities of all the essential amino acids, but obviously that is my perspective. If your perspective is that there is no work at all to pick up a few foods and you have what you need, then great!
Regardless of whether you feel like you have to "carefully design" your food or whether you "didn't do any special planning," my point that one must get all the essential amino acids stands.
If a vegetarian avoids eating from a very limited selection of foods, they will generally get all the amino acids. No one is arguing that you don't need all of them, just that it's not really a challenge to do so.
If I remember correctly, you were carnivore, is that still accurate? I can see where someone who is used to eating all meat might think eating a wide variety of foods is a lot of effort, but for most of us (and I don't just mean vegetarians, as I'm not one), it's second nature. Just like the low fat craze, the idea that vegetarians have to combine foods properly in order to be healthy is outdated science. The current science isn't that complete proteins aren't necessary, just that a balanced vegetarian diet will supply all the necessary components.I’m one of those male vegetarians that gets odd looks from just about everyone. No, I didn’t start recently. It seems to be the cool thing to do these days. I started well over 10 years ago.
Anyway. Protein. I’ve learned over the years that the crazy amount of protein the media pushes on people is arguably false. Or is it? How much protein does a person really need for optimal body function?
I don’t need the body builder’s answer here. I’ve been there, eating some 200+ grams a day. I wouldn’t mind hearing the opinion of everyone. I’m curious to see if there’s a general consensus? Or if the opinions are all over the map.
What I have seen suggested over a wide variety of platforms is that the US RDA is a bare minimum number that will at least keep you from being deficient. That to cover all the bases (and especially if you are eating in a deficit or trying to build muscle) 0.6-0.8g per lb of goal body weight is a good idea. I do eat meat, but have found edamame, lentils, cottage cheese, and greek yogurt to be useful non-meat sources :drinker:5 -
midwesterner85 wrote: »How does "I got it without thinking about it" and "I didn't do any special planning" = "a lot of effort"?
As explained, that is my perspective based on the descriptions provided and my macro goals. It's ok if you don't have the same perspective and it is even ok if you don't understand how/why I have that perspective. To have that understanding, you would have to know me as well as I know myself... that means you would need to be aware of my minute-to-minute thoughts and experiences and to have known that for my entire life. No other person besides me could possibly have that same understanding. This is why it is ok to not understand how/why I have a particular viewpoint. I draw the line, though, when someone tells me I CAN'T have a particular perspective. I hope that isn't what you are doing here.
When people explain they made no effort and someone responds with "That sounds like a lot of effort," we're beyond individual perspectives and experiences and into the realm of language no longer having fixed meaning.
Do you have the right to conclude that just eating what I'm was going to eat anyway sounds like a lot of effort? Yes, absolutely. You can believe anything you'd like. It's simply hard to understand how that conclusion is grounded in reality.
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jls1leather9497 wrote: »I have my macros currently set to try to get 50% protein.
New to this, so we'll see how that begins to develope.
Weekly nutrient report says I'm AVERAGING 135g per day. That's UNDER 50% so far, but I'll stay at it.
Ih, that's 135g per day WITHOUT supplements.
MFP's minimum calorie recommendation for a man is 1500 calories, so 50% is 750 calories or 187.5 grams of protein. Seems a little high. Most of the X grams per pound are for pounds of lean / fat free mass or ideal body weight, fyi.
Getting 135g sounds okay.3 -
magnusthenerd wrote: »
MFP's minimum calorie recommendation for a man is 1500 calories, so 50% is 750 calories or 187.5 grams of protein. Seems a little high.
Getting 135g sounds okay.
Yeah, if I assume a min of .8g/lb and assume 190 lb 'homest' body weight that would be 150g, so I figure I'm okay that way too, and anything OVER isnt hurting anything.
But I HAVE NOT been hitting 1500 cal, so the 50% DOES HOLD as its 50% of what I'm eating. 👌1 -
I'm ovo-lacto vegetarian, and have been for 45 years, thin to fat to obese and back to thin again. I like the Examine.com article that was linked for a fuller perspective, but I'm another one that has settled on around 0.6-0.8g per pound of healthy goal weight (which reasonably equates to about 0.8-1.0g per pound of lean body mass for average-ish people - it's just that most people don't have a decent estimate of lean body mass). My thinking includes the idea that I count myself as active, aging, and sometimes in a calorie deficit, any of which suggest that something over the USDA/WHO numbers is a good plan. Also, extra protein (within reason) won't hurt a healthy person.
The sources saying USDA/WHO recommendations are too high are, in my experience, likely to be low-quality vegetarian or vegan advocacy sites with an agenda, and that agenda is not helping me get nutrition that's as science-guided as reasonably possible. Just my opinion, obviously.
I second-third-fourth the idea that it's good to get protein from a variety of sources, and that you need all the essential amino acids, but that unless one has a very restrictive diet in ways other than simple vegetarianism, it isn't required to exactly combine foods within each meal to get the perfect amino acid profile all at one time. I became vegetarian back in the 1970s when that was what the best research seemed to suggest, but knowledge and research has moved on from then. Don't lowball your total protein, vary your sources, maybe do a little reading to make sure your food preferences don't create any significant consistent amino acid gaps, and you'll be fine.
I'm a little nonplussed about a nonvegetarian (seemingly) talking about how much planning it takes to be a vegetarian. It wasn't that big a deal even in the "must get complete protein by combining in the same meal" era. Many of the best combos are long-roots traditional (surprise, natural selection works!
), easy, and tasty. 8 -
I do feel that protein needs have been exaggerated the last few years.
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Protein is an essential body nutrient.
For normal heath, you probably only need the 0.8g/kg (or .4g/# BW is probably "enough" but for strenous physical activity and/or weight lifting 1g/# BW ia the commonly suggested min in order to maintain and increase muscle mass & development.2 -
I grew up on a carb centric diet. I discovered protein and fat after college. Eating enough has a huge impact. I believe the usda recommendations are a starting point, go with what gets you to your health goals.2
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@midwesterner85 perhaps we have all been misunderstanding your "lot of effort" comment?
If you were referring to prep/cooking time, then as an omnivore who has worked in vegetarian and mostly plant-based kitchens, I would agree that less effort is needed when the array of foods is very small.3 -
WFPB here. I use Cron to ensure I’m hitting all macros and micros. I had an issue last December when I got super lazy living on broccoli and potatoes. I had zero energy. Once I started paying attention again, I was fine. 65-75g seems to be my sweet spot.2
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