Protein, protein, protein! Or not?

Protein needs are all over the place for optimal results for different individuals in different situations so protein recommendations are, and should be, all over the place too. There is plenty of evidence than the general RDA is set very low and is inappropriate for many.

Someone exercising a lot more protein is a good idea, not just weight training but endurance cardio too.
People dieting would be well advised to eat more that the minimum.
Older people should have more too.

Not sure what you mean by "crazy amounts" but yes there is definitely a marketing element currently active - like spoiling a Snickers bar by adding some extra protein that makes it taste like chalk!

A good read on the subject with links to research papers....
https://examine.com/nutrition/how-much-protein-do-you-need/

As a vegetarian, I would think your concern is not just quantity, but also quality of protein. If you are not getting "whole proteins" (proteins with all essential amino acids), then you may as well just eat carbs. The entire point of eating protein is to build and maintain lean tissue, so you are defeating that purpose if you don't get whole proteins.

midwesterner85 wrote: »

As a vegetarian, I would think your concern is not just quantity, but also quality of protein. If you are not getting "whole proteins" (proteins with all essential amino acids), then you may as well just eat carbs. The entire point of eating protein is to build and maintain lean tissue, so you are defeating that purpose if you don't get whole proteins.

It is important that we get all the essential amino acids, but our bodies can combine them from different foods. The idea that we have to eat "whole proteins" isn't supported by any solid science. Assuming OP eats a reasonably varied diet, this probably isn't a concern.

midwesterner85 wrote: »

janejellyroll wrote: »

midwesterner85 wrote: »

As a vegetarian, I would think your concern is not just quantity, but also quality of protein. If you are not getting "whole proteins" (proteins with all essential amino acids), then you may as well just eat carbs. The entire point of eating protein is to build and maintain lean tissue, so you are defeating that purpose if you don't get whole proteins.

It is important that we get all the essential amino acids, but our bodies can combine them from different foods. The idea that we have to eat "whole proteins" isn't supported by any solid science. Assuming OP eats a reasonably varied diet, this probably isn't a concern.

I agree - the same can be accomplished if OP is ensuring that he is getting all the essential amino acids by eating a vegetarian meal carefully designed to be sure that is happening. He is then basically creating his own whole protein food.

It really doesn't have to be "carefully designed." A reasonable amount of variety will do the trick without any effort necessary on OP's part.

The idea that vegetarians or vegans must combine proteins within a meal was a popular idea in the 1970s, but it turned out to be a myth. The author who initially popularized the idea later attempted to correct it, but it's one of those myths with a long shelf life. Bottom line: we do need all the essential amino acids, but we don't need to get them all in the same sitting for them to count.

lemurcat2 wrote: »

I log on Cron and find that when eating 100% plant based I generally have all the amino acids no problem without thinking about it. Of course, I typically eat some beans/lentils plus a variety of other foods that have some protein, but that's not "carefully designing" my diet. Certainly someone doing something more difficult like raw or a largely fruit based diet would have a harder time.

Someone eating vegetarian and including eggs and dairy will typically not really have to think about it at all.

I logged my (vegan) meals on Cron for over a year, never had an issue with getting all the amino acids. I didn't do any special planning, it was just something I happened to notice.

From what I've read, lysine is the amino acid that you're potentially likely to struggle with on a raw/fruit diet (in addition to possibly not getting enough protein overall). For people who are eating tofu, tempeh, and/or legumes regularly, it's less of a concern.

How does "I got it without thinking about it" and "I didn't do any special planning" = "a lot of effort"? Logging on Cron was not to make sure I got the necessary aminos, I was already logging there (as it's a superior site for logging if you eat mostly whole foods, IMO).

Also, janejellyroll and I were talking about diets without animal foods at all. If one is an ovo-lacto vegetarian, there is no need to worry about it. (If one is vegan/plant-based and eats soy and/or beans/lentils and otherwise a normal varied diet, it's also not an issue.)

OP is a vegetarian, so quite unlikely it's an issue he needs help with.

midwesterner85 wrote: »

That all sounds like a lot of effort to get enough quantities of all the essential amino acids, but obviously that is my perspective. If your perspective is that there is no work at all to pick up a few foods and you have what you need, then great!

Regardless of whether you feel like you have to "carefully design" your food or whether you "didn't do any special planning," my point that one must get all the essential amino acids stands.

What effort are you talking about? @lemurcat2 and I both shared that we both were able to get the essential amino acids without any special planning or effort and this is while eating only plants (while OP is likely including eggs and dairy which makes your warning even more unnecessary).

Because I require food to live and I also enjoy eating, I was doing what I'd be doing anyway. I was picking up anything special or out of the ordinary, I was just . . . eating. I wasn't logging on Cron to ensure I was getting enough, I was logging there for other reasons and I just happened to notice that it was never an issue over the entire year I was logging there.

Nobody is disputing that we need these essential amino acids. The only point of contention is whether or not a vegetarian or vegan diet must be "specially designed" in order to get them.

midwesterner85 wrote: »

That all sounds like a lot of effort to get enough quantities of all the essential amino acids, but obviously that is my perspective. If your perspective is that there is no work at all to pick up a few foods and you have what you need, then great!

Regardless of whether you feel like you have to "carefully design" your food or whether you "didn't do any special planning," my point that one must get all the essential amino acids stands.

If a vegetarian avoids eating from a very limited selection of foods, they will generally get all the amino acids. No one is arguing that you don't need all of them, just that it's not really a challenge to do so.

If I remember correctly, you were carnivore, is that still accurate? I can see where someone who is used to eating all meat might think eating a wide variety of foods is a lot of effort, but for most of us (and I don't just mean vegetarians, as I'm not one), it's second nature. Just like the low fat craze, the idea that vegetarians have to combine foods properly in order to be healthy is outdated science. The current science isn't that complete proteins aren't necessary, just that a balanced vegetarian diet will supply all the necessary components.

biggs097 wrote: »

I’m one of those male vegetarians that gets odd looks from just about everyone. No, I didn’t start recently. It seems to be the cool thing to do these days. I started well over 10 years ago.

Anyway. Protein. I’ve learned over the years that the crazy amount of protein the media pushes on people is arguably false. Or is it? How much protein does a person really need for optimal body function?

I don’t need the body builder’s answer here. I’ve been there, eating some 200+ grams a day. I wouldn’t mind hearing the opinion of everyone. I’m curious to see if there’s a general consensus? Or if the opinions are all over the map.

What I have seen suggested over a wide variety of platforms is that the US RDA is a bare minimum number that will at least keep you from being deficient. That to cover all the bases (and especially if you are eating in a deficit or trying to build muscle) 0.6-0.8g per lb of goal body weight is a good idea. I do eat meat, but have found edamame, lentils, cottage cheese, and greek yogurt to be useful non-meat sources :drinker:

I'm ovo-lacto vegetarian, and have been for 45 years, thin to fat to obese and back to thin again. I like the Examine.com article that was linked for a fuller perspective, but I'm another one that has settled on around 0.6-0.8g per pound of healthy goal weight (which reasonably equates to about 0.8-1.0g per pound of lean body mass for average-ish people - it's just that most people don't have a decent estimate of lean body mass). My thinking includes the idea that I count myself as active, aging, and sometimes in a calorie deficit, any of which suggest that something over the USDA/WHO numbers is a good plan. Also, extra protein (within reason) won't hurt a healthy person.

The sources saying USDA/WHO recommendations are too high are, in my experience, likely to be low-quality vegetarian or vegan advocacy sites with an agenda, and that agenda is not helping me get nutrition that's as science-guided as reasonably possible. Just my opinion, obviously.

I second-third-fourth the idea that it's good to get protein from a variety of sources, and that you need all the essential amino acids, but that unless one has a very restrictive diet in ways other than simple vegetarianism, it isn't required to exactly combine foods within each meal to get the perfect amino acid profile all at one time. I became vegetarian back in the 1970s when that was what the best research seemed to suggest, but knowledge and research has moved on from then. Don't lowball your total protein, vary your sources, maybe do a little reading to make sure your food preferences don't create any significant consistent amino acid gaps, and you'll be fine.

I'm a little nonplussed about a nonvegetarian (seemingly) talking about how much planning it takes to be a vegetarian. It wasn't that big a deal even in the "must get complete protein by combining in the same meal" era. Many of the best combos are long-roots traditional (surprise, natural selection works! ), easy, and tasty.