Don't ride bikes on sidewalks
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cwolfman13 wrote: »garystrickland357 wrote: »@puffbrat Oh my. Where do you live?
In the southwestern US. The ironic thing is that there is a huge cycling community here because there is so much open space, great mountain biking trails, and fantastic weather for most of the year. Unfortunately, there are also a lot of horrible drivers as well as some really poor infrastructure. Most of the people I know who ride regularly, and everyone my husband knows who do so, have been hit been a car more than once.
I live in the Albuquerque metro area...we have some pretty horrible drivers here, but I've never been hit by a car and I'm a pretty avid cyclist. We have some great multi use trails and I stay away from really busy streets, even if they have a bike lane.monkeefan1974 wrote: »Sorry. I ride on the sidewalk through my neighborhood because I ride up to the park with my three year old. My three year old is not riding his bike in the street. I go around pedestrians if there are any. What else should I do
OP, I can understand both sides of the argument.
Also, this comment brings up a good question... should children ride their bikes in the street? At what age should they stop riding on the sidewalks and go into the streets?
My village doesn't even have sidewalks. I'm a pretty avid cyclists and my kids have grown up with that and they ride in the bike lane with me when we're out. Our main road through the village is only 30 MPH though, and pretty mellow in terms of traffic volume and well patrolled by the local PD. They ride in the neighborhood streets all of the time on their own.
That’s impressive! Here in the San Francisco Bay Area due to the sheer number of vehicles and large trucks (with large blind spots) on the poorly maintained streets, it really is safer to be on the sidewalk. Sadly, cyclists and pedestrians alike get mowed down by cars all the time, even in crosswalks with lights giving them the right of way. This has created a lot of tension and aggression between cyclists and motorists which the cyclists seem to pass along when they in turn pass dangerously close to pedestrians, kind of like the bullied turning into bullies themselves. And it’s only getting worse with more cars on the streets every year. There is no easy answer for sure
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Where I live -- Sacramento, California -- it is legal to ride on the sidewalk in residential areas, not in commercial areas. Makes sense, i think. Fewer pedestrians in the residential areas and more kids riding their bikes. I think kids should ride on the sidewalk. As a cyclist myself, I don't trust drivers.3
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janejellyroll wrote: »michael1976_ca wrote: »I choose to ride on the sidewalk because it is a safer place. But i will be careful
It's not safer though. I live in an urban neighborhood where people frequently ride on the sidewalk and I've been hit by cyclists before. It's not safer for me to be hit by a cyclist who comes around a corner quickly. It's not safer for them either.
There is a reason why these rules are in place. For a cyclist to disregard the rules on a sidewalk for their own convenience or perception of safety isn't that different than a driver disregarding the rules on the road. In both cases, vulnerable people are put at risk.
I'm a relatively fortunate person because I can sometimes see the cyclist coming and take steps to protect myself. I can move out of the way relatively quickly. But my neighborhood also has people who are blind or aren't able to move quickly. They're at a much higher risk from cyclists. There is a reason why the law addresses this.
Personally, I couldn't imagine even wanting to ride on a sidewalk. My average speed for a good conversational pace ride is around 18 MPH...I'm going to either mow someone down or be going so slow that I might as well be walking.4 -
With most of the sidewalks in my town, I'd rather ride (and run) in the street. Lots of cracks and uplift for tree roots. The streets in the residential areas are usually quite wide and don't get that much traffic. For people with kids on bikes, there is a county park with a 2.5 mile paved path and a 1.5 mile rail trail in town, and a couple of longer gravel bike paths about 45 minutes away. On a nice weekend, they are very busy.
One thing that worries me is seeing bicycles riding the wrong way on one way streets. Cars will look in the direction they expect cars to come, not the other direction. I've seen a couple of very close calls from bikes doing a short cut on the one way street.2 -
NorthCascades wrote: »As a pedestrian frequently with a dog on the sidewalk, I appreciate a "on your left" or "on your right" from an approaching bicyclist. In some places in my neighborhood, the bike lane and sidewalk are the same pavement. We all just try to look out for each other. But the danger is real - there are little kids zooming around and not watching for cars backing out of driveways, etc.
A lot of cyclists will say "on your left" but it's generally better to say something like "bike passing." Half the time if you day you're passing on the left, the person will have been focused elsewhere, not paying attention, they just hear left and move left.
This applies to shared bike/pedestrian paths too. If you crash into someone while you're going 15 mph, it's going to hurt a lot for both of you. We cyclists need to use judgement and situational awareness. We need to pass with enough room to be able to react, and at a safe speed for the conditions. It's a really good idea to announce yourself somehow if people are walking the same direction and can't see you, then they'll stay out of your path. A lot of people are wearing earbuds though so don't just count on them hearing you.
As a runner who will often do group runs on shared paved trails, I just want to add to the awesomeness of this discussion. From the perspective of a runner:
1. Yes, please yell out "bike passing" and "on your left." Even better, yell it out well before you're right on top of us, and wait for some acknowledgement (like a hand wave or clearly moving over) before proceeding. If you don't get a either, there's a good chance we didn't hear you. It could be earbuds, it could be that we were chatting with fellow runners, someone may have been calling out a distance or pace at the same time you called out, or a person can't hear anything over the sounds of their own gasps for breath. If they still don't acknowledge in any way, we either didn't hear you, or the runner is a jerk. Please slow down and give a wide berth when you do pass so you don't scare the person or end up getting knocked over by someone who decided it would funny to clothesline the cyclist.
2. Please don't play "beat the cyclist coming in the other direction" when passing a group of runners. We've already acknowledged you and moved over as much as we can if you've called out, you don't need to lose this game of chicken and force us off the path or hit us because the other cyclist wasn't about to give any space for you to pass in the other lane. We get it, you're training for something or want to PR. So are we, and we'd like to not be maimed while doing it.
3. It's dark, wear lights. We can't always hear a bike coming up behind us over the sounds of footfalls and breathing. A headlight lets us know that something is coming up behind us so you don't scare us when you pass (because if you aren't wearing lights, you probably didn't call out to us either). In the interest of fairness, runners should have some kind of light as well, not just reflective gear. It can be a handheld light with a tailight, or shoelight, just something that others can see to know you are there before they hit the angle needed for your reflective gear to react.
4. If you are riding with a group of cyclists, please countdown as you pass. We can't run and look behind ourselves to count how many of you there are. If four cyclists are riding together, first one yells "four!," the next "three!," the next "two!," and the next....ok, the next one....ok, you said there were four...."one!" Ah, there he is. It keeps us safe and keeps the last cyclist from suddenly having a bunch of people move back front of them as they are about to pass because the runners thought everyone had gone by.
5. If we moved over, and did so in plenty of time so you could pass easily, a little handwave of acknowledgement is nice. Cyclists can get a really bad reputation in the running community because some act like any long stretch of flat paved road or trail belongs to them, and anyone on foot should get out of their way. Sometimes a runner is actually your better chance of assistance in an emergency, because while we do log some serious miles, many of us are usually a lot closer to our vehicles than a cyclist on a long ride. A few runners in my group have driven cyclists back to their cars, or even to hospitals after an accident.
Good post. Even when we think we're doing what we need to in order to keep ourselves safe, we can still be doing something that puts someone else at risk. We should try to be more aware of others.20 -
I feel it's safer to ride my bike on the sidewalk because then I won't get hit by a car. If I get a little ringy dingy bell for the bike, I can warn pedestrians I'm coming and they can step aside.3
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NorthCascades wrote: »It's getting nicer and people are starting to take their bikes back out. A lot of people don't know that you don't ride on sidewalks; a lot of people do it to feel safer vs riding in traffic.
(1) It's rude to pedestrians. And slightly dangerous because pedestrians aren't obligated to hold a predictable line.
(2) The sidewalk is much more dangerous then the street. Every entrance/exit to every parking lot becomes an uncontrolled intersection. The cyclist thinks they have the right if way because they're going straight and not interrupting the flow of traffic. The driver thinks they have the right of way because they're in a car. A lot of drivers aren't great at looking before they go, they're mostly looking for cars not bikes, and if they see you they assume you're going slowly and will stop for them.
Those morning on my way to get coffee, I saw a cyclist in a day how glow yellow sweatshirt moving strangely on the bike - really attention grabbing. An SUV knocked him to the pavement. Luckily in this case there were no injuries and no obvious property damage. Cyclist insisted that I not call 911, cursed the driver out, and left.
This was me last summer.
I was popping down a main road about 20mph when a lady decided to pass me at the intersection just to stop in the middle of a turn on the car for a dunkin donuts drive through that was overflowing.
I had no where to go but over my handle bars and maneuver my body midair to take the blow into the side of her SUV with my entire body.
She gets out and immediately said where did you come from? You should be riding on the side walk. I replied, there is no side walk and that's illegal in this town regardless. Its a side"walk" not side"ride".
We exchanged info and I got a call from her insurance company that night telling me I owed them for the dent in her car. SMH.
I mean coffee yes, but DD isn't that good!
Hope you're doing better..
My car was stolen, sheriff found it about a quarter mile into a corn field. Guys that stole it had been doing doughnuts. Farmer's insurance called and wanted me to pay for the damaged crops.
Insurance companies can be so *kitten* up at times.4 -
I will say, runners (running on the road) not wearing lights before sunrise/after sunset worries me more than cyclists, but just a hair more. In practice it's harder for me to see a runner than a cyclist in the dark likely because the profile is smaller. Runners, at least near my house, don't take the road in the same way cyclists do which makes it harder to see them. I mean it makes sense and I can't imagine that running in the middle of the road is legal or safe, but yeah - I do not enjoy accidently nearly driving uncomfortably close to a runner in the dark who isn't wearing any reflective clothing or lights.5
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GiddyupTim wrote: »Where I live -- Sacramento, California -- it is legal to ride on the sidewalk in residential areas, not in commercial areas. Makes sense, i think. Fewer pedestrians in the residential areas and more kids riding their bikes. I think kids should ride on the sidewalk. As a cyclist myself, I don't trust drivers.
Thought that was only applicable to mid-town (recent news coverage re ordinance review/collision death) and was likewise reinforced/told by CHP Capital Section. Working downtown, I find it very annoying but less so than riding against the direction of travel. Both are happening more frequently after the launch of the bike share program.0 -
I ride on the pavement (sidewalk) because where I live, it's definitely not safer on the road and I'm not a very confident cyclist. I'm always careful ; I get off and walk or, if safe, move onto the road whenever I see pedestrians and I'm watchful when I approach a driveway. If I come to a side road that has to be crossed I get off and walk across.5
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I will say, runners (running on the road) not wearing lights before sunrise/after sunset worries me more than cyclists, but just a hair more. In practice it's harder for me to see a runner than a cyclist in the dark likely because the profile is smaller. Runners, at least near my house, don't take the road in the same way cyclists do which makes it harder to see them. I mean it makes sense and I can't imagine that running in the middle of the road is legal or safe, but yeah - I do not enjoy accidently nearly driving uncomfortably close to a runner in the dark who isn't wearing any reflective clothing or lights.
We have some fool in my community who walks during the early morning hours, we generally see her between 5:30-6 am. She is walking in the road in the lane of oncoming traffic, in a hilly area, and has no lights or reflective gear. There are paved trails on either side of the road, but she walks in the road. She seems to think that she can jump on the grassy median if she sees headlights. I'm not sure how this is better, because now she's scaring the drivers who really aren't expecting someone to be standing randomly on the median (there are crosswalks and tunnels in this area for pedestrians at cross-streets), and she freaks out the runners and cyclists. Even with headlamps, we can't see her until we are right upon her, and we are moving a lot more slowly than a car.
We've tried posting on community pages letting people know and trying to encourage her not to do that, hoping someone who knows her will see and say something at the very least. I guess she'll learn the day someone forgets to turn on their headlights.2 -
I've found even some "mutli-use" trails are scarier than roads. Walkers, strollers, and dogs all over the place. You never know what they're going to do. YIKES!
Further, @NorthCascades I found out that there is no statewide helmet law in WA. It's all regulated by cities and counties. And not very many across the state have them. It was shocking to me.
https://www.wsdot.wa.gov/travel/commute-choices/bike/helmets
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Don't need sidewalk nor roads.. 😎2
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4. If you are riding with a group of cyclists, please countdown as you pass. We can't run and look behind ourselves to count how many of you there are. If four cyclists are riding together, first one yells "four!," the next "three!," the next "two!," and the next....ok, the next one....ok, you said there were four...."one!" Ah, there he is. It keeps us safe and keeps the last cyclist from suddenly having a bunch of people move back front of them as they are about to pass because the runners thought everyone had gone by.
I didn't realize this was important to runners. Thanks for taking the time to post, I'll start doing this when I ride in groups. (I usually only ride with a friend or two if anyone at all.)
The rest of your post is great too.2 -
NorthCascades wrote: »As a pedestrian frequently with a dog on the sidewalk, I appreciate a "on your left" or "on your right" from an approaching bicyclist. In some places in my neighborhood, the bike lane and sidewalk are the same pavement. We all just try to look out for each other. But the danger is real - there are little kids zooming around and not watching for cars backing out of driveways, etc.
A lot of cyclists will say "on your left" but it's generally better to say something like "bike passing." Half the time if you day you're passing on the left, the person will have been focused elsewhere, not paying attention, they just hear left and move left.
This applies to shared bike/pedestrian paths too. If you crash into someone while you're going 15 mph, it's going to hurt a lot for both of you. We cyclists need to use judgement and situational awareness. We need to pass with enough room to be able to react, and at a safe speed for the conditions. It's a really good idea to announce yourself somehow if people are walking the same direction and can't see you, then they'll stay out of your path. A lot of people are wearing earbuds though so don't just count on them hearing you.
I hear you about people not listening (and also so many are plugged in to their phones). But with the dog, it's really helpful to hear what side the cyclist is coming from so I can rein him in appropriately. If he's startled by a cyclist zooming by close to him, he will jump (and he's huge) and then the cyclist is startled and it doesn't always end well.3 -
I'll usually ask a group of cyclists how many are in the group, since they rarely offer that information. When we have our dog, I like to get well off the path so he doesn't jump on anybody. This is especially important on single track. It's much easier if bikes stop and give us a chance to get him off the path, but some bicyclists simply won't.
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I am a bicycle commuter. I'm fortunate to live in what has been dubbed the most bike-friendly state in the USA, and I am in the city that has been dubbed the most bike-friendly in the state. Even with that, we could all work on being better users of the shared resource -- our streets. I routinely see cyclists riding the wrong way on the road. This is not safe, and it's not predictable. I've seen cyclists hit doing this, and it's really their own fault.
Where I live, bikes are prohibited from a small downtown core area and the block where the library is. Skateboards, too. Otherwise, they are allowed, but you have to travel at a walking pace. Most cyclists don't do that.
The issue is more confusing with multi-modal paths. These function as large sidewalks and also bike highways. When I walk, most cyclists ring a bell or call out. When I'm riding, I always ring my Crane bell. Such a friendly tone! What I do see is so many folks with ear buds; they can't even hear me. If they are on the phone, they may also be flailing their arms, so I'm always careful passing. Part of my commute is on busy streets, but part is along the river on a multi-modal path. The last part of that path is a gauntlet because it's on the "wrong side" of the street, and there is an intersection and then a few commercial driveways that come out onto the highway. I almost got creamed yesterday as someone pulled out of the store parking lot in a rush, looked to their left, and floored it to get into traffic. I saw her pull up, so I slowed down, but it was still a close call. There's always (often, anyway) a look of terror when a driver realizes they almost creamed someone. Then the multi-modal path ends at a traffic light with difficult visibility. Still -- when I visit other cities, I realize how good we have it.
Pedestrians need to take some responsibility, too. There's a crosswalk at every intersection whether it's marked or not. There are some crosswalks marked mid block, and pedestrians have a right of way there, too. But they don't have right of way whenever they want. It's not illegal in my state (or my city) to cross the road anywhere (there's no jaywalking here), but if a pedestrian chooses to cross mid-block without a crosswalk, they don't have right of way. Better be fast! Even in a marked crosswalk at an intersection, a pedestrian does NOT have right of way if it's against a traffic light. I see that often. Also, it's dangerous and ILLEGAL to leave a place of safety into a place of danger, like just stepping off a sidewalk in front of a car. A pedestrian needs to indicate a wish to cross, and that establishes right of way.
We're seeing more powered cycles around here. I don't think those should be on the sidewalk, and some are powerful and fast enough that they shouldn't be in the bike lane, either. Our rules will probably catch up at some time, but for now we just need to be careful, and it really wouldn't hurt to try to be more courteous to each other and pay attention. And follow most of the rules
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Yeah, as nice as it would be to ride on the roads 100% I've had too many near misses with cars that it's not worth the risk. It's far easier to avoid pedestrians than a car who has no intention of giving you any space. I do however use bike lanes when available and ride on the roads on side streets since there's next to no traffic. But on main streets with no bike lanes? Nope. Never trust drivers.5
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I live in an area that some of the bike paths are on the pavement. I follow those that are clearly marked but have yelled to pedestrians in a group before that do not acknowledge or move, so I have to accommodate by slowing down far less than a walking pace that barely keeps me upright. I have often had to walk part of the path while on the sidewalk section to get to the blacktop paved sections. I follow the railroad trails that have been paved for this purpose for multimodal use, near Annapolis Maryland.1
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MichelleSilverleaf wrote: »Yeah, as nice as it would be to ride on the roads 100% I've had too many near misses with cars that it's not worth the risk. It's far easier to avoid pedestrians than a car who has no intention of giving you any space. I do however use bike lanes when available and ride on the roads on side streets since there's next to no traffic. But on main streets with no bike lanes? Nope. Never trust drivers.
Just keep in mind the part about how dangerous driveways that cross the sidewalk are to you. Take extra care not to get hit there, because drivers really aren't looking out for you on the sidewalk.3
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