Stretching and massage don't help muscles

Orphia

"Stretching Does Not Prevent or Treat DOMS (Delayed Onset Muscle Soreness)

Reviews of the scientific literature show that stretching neither prevents nor treats DOMS (Cochrane Database Syst Rev, July 6, 2011;(7):CD004577; Br J Sports Med. 2011;45:1249-1250).

It did not prevent the muscle damage induced rise in plasma-CK, muscle pain, muscle strength and the PCr/P(I) ratio (Scand J Med Sci Sports, Aug, 1998;8(4):216–21).

Stretching does not:
• prevent sports injuries (Clinical Journal of Sports Medicine, March 2005)
• prevent DOMS (Cochrane Database of Systematic Reviews, 2007, Issue 4)
• lengthen muscles (Clinical Biomechanics, June 2014;29(6):636-642). It only increases pain tolerance so you can stretch further.

Other Unproven Treatments for DOMS
Massage: Some studies show that massage decreases pain, but nobody has shown convincingly that massage hastens muscle recovery or increases contraction strength (J Athl Train, 2005 Jul-Sep; 40(3): 174–180).
Massage did not hasten short or long-term recovery and was less effective for recovery than light exercise (J Orthop Sports Phys Ther, Feb 1997;25(2):107–12).
[...]"
Source:
https://www.drmirkin.com/fitness/making-muscles-stronger.html




Source:
http://semrc.blogs.latrobe.edu.au/running-myth-2-not-stretching-enough-causes-injury/


Personally, I've found that stretching or manually manipulating muscles makes them hurt (people say it feels like a good pain), however...

After the "good pain" stops, you only feel "better" because:

A. You're just relieved the pain from the stretch/massage is over;
B. You feel nice from the attention you or the masseur has given you;
C. The placebo effect (you'd hate to admit you were kidding yourself any of this helps).


Now let's see who just reads the thread title and only posts a gut reaction based on their belief in myths from articles from fitness companies selling stretching/massage programs/services.

Keto_Vampire

Wait, what, so lat pullovers don't expand one's ribcage/physically alter one's skeletal structure like broscientists/golden era bodybuilders claim? (joking)

If anything, Isometric holds in the form of stretching generally impede performance if done pre-exercise (try it out, I guarantee all your lifts will go to ****). Besides the one's you mentioned, counter irritant effect seems like a possibility why people feel like stretching relieves pain

magnusthenerd

Keto_Vampire wrote: »

Wait, what, so lat pullovers don't expand one's ribcage/physically alter one's skeletal structure like broscientists/golden era bodybuilders claim? (joking)

If anything, Isometric holds in the form of stretching generally impede performance if done pre-exercise. Besides the one's you mentioned, counter irritant effect seems like a possibility why people feel like stretching relieves pain

Stop reminding me of my ruined dreams. Arnie said if I did my pullovers as a growing boy, I'd have the same 50ish inch chest he did.
By the time I learned better I was too old to sleep with the ~100+ lb of weights on my chest it would take to even begin to alter bones. Oh well.

RunsWithBees

Question: is foam rolling considered a massage or stretching, or is it it’s own special thing? Because I’ve found stretching to be useless to me, massage is nice but yea doesn’t really help muscles... but foam rolling does the trick and I was super skeptical when I tried it but it works for me, no one can seem to concretely explain why though.

MikePTY

We almost never do stretching as warm up during my martial arts classes. We warm the body up by getting the body moving, which always seemed a lot more intuitive to me than warming up doing things that don't actually get you "warm". My inflexible self is happy to hear that I am not crazy for not really feeling the need to stretch,

Carlos_421

I dont think it's news that stretching pre-exercise is a dated concept and actually tends to impede progress. It's been a long time since I've seen static stretching recommended as part of a warm up and the vast majority of articles, magazines and even blogs will recommend dynamic movements for warming up and discourage pre-workout static stretching.

That said, there's a difference between "static stretching doesn't decrease DOMS" and "stretching doesn't help muscles."

Just because stretching shouldn't be done just before a workout doesn't mean that mobility work doesn't have health benefits. Same goes for massage.

Carlos_421

monkeefan1974 wrote: »

Question: is foam rolling considered a massage or stretching, or is it it’s own special thing? Because I’ve found stretching to be useless to me, massage is nice but yea doesn’t really help muscles... but foam rolling does the trick and I was super skeptical when I tried it but it works for me, no one can seem to concretely explain why though.

Foam rolling is massage.

JBanx256

The Influence of Foam Rolling on Recovery from Exercise-Induced Muscle Damage. D’Amico and Gillis. (2017)

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=28902111

Foam rolling did not improve most measures of recovery compared to a non-foam rolling group in the days following high volume and damaging sprinting exercise.

-quote from MASS research review

JBanx256

An Evidence-Based Approach for Choosing Post-Exercise Recovery Techniques to Reduce Markers of Muscle Damage, Soreness, Fatigue, and Inflammation: A Systematic Review with Meta-Analysis. Dupuy et al. (2018)

https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fphys.2018.00403/full

Unknown

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Lolinloggen

I know all this and I still stretch. Simply put; it makes me feel good and that is the only, and for me best, reason to do it

Maxematics

Carlos_421 wrote: »

I dont think it's news that stretching pre-exercise is a dated concept and actually tends to impede progress. It's been a long time since I've seen static stretching recommended as part of a warm up and the vast majority of articles, magazines and even blogs will recommend dynamic movements for warming up and discourage pre-workout static stretching.

That said, there's a difference between "static stretching doesn't decrease DOMS" and "stretching doesn't help muscles."

Just because stretching shouldn't be done just before a workout doesn't mean that mobility work doesn't have health benefits. Same goes for massage.

Yeah, that's the first thing I thought when reading this; dynamic beforehand, static after. I have never heard or done otherwise. That being said, I do get DOMS no matter how much I stretch or foam roll. I still stretch for the flexibility and because it feels good. Same for the foam rolling, especially on my calves.

SeattleBebop1

monkeefan1974 wrote: »

Question: is foam rolling considered a massage or stretching, or is it it’s own special thing? Because I’ve found stretching to be useless to me, massage is nice but yea doesn’t really help muscles... but foam rolling does the trick and I was super skeptical when I tried it but it works for me, no one can seem to concretely explain why though.

Foam rolling was recommended by the P.T. who I saw for a *bad* IT band injury. My right band can get super-tight but I have a high pain tolerance, hence I really screwed it up by continuing to hike through the pain. Foam rolling was encouraged to "break" up the tension. :shrugs: It worked, along with the other floor exercises. Even now, when my thighs get tension, the foam rolling provides instant relief.

Phirrgus

JBanx256 wrote: »

An Evidence-Based Approach for Choosing Post-Exercise Recovery Techniques to Reduce Markers of Muscle Damage, Soreness, Fatigue, and Inflammation: A Systematic Review with Meta-Analysis. Dupuy et al. (2018)

https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fphys.2018.00403/full

This makes sense to me RE: Active recovery, especially this bit.

Active recovery (AR) had a similar effect to CWT on DOMS (but with a larger effect size) with no impact on perceived fatigue. The effect of AR after exhaustive exercise on DOMS has been known for more than 30 years (Armstrong, 1984). However, the impact of AR is only significant during a short period after exercise (Zainuddin et al., 2006).

I've always stretched because that's what I was taught to do over the years, and while the regimen has had a dramatic impact on keeping my lower back from guarding and giving me general grief, stretching overall never seemed to impact much pre or post workout. I did it though, force of habit.

A short AR period after workouts, all dynamic stretching, seems to do me a world of good though, so, even if it's strictly a placebo effect, I'll keep doing it.

Motorsheen

Keto_Vampire wrote: »

[ Isometric holds in the form of stretching generally impede performance if done pre-exercise (try it out, I guarantee all your lifts will go to ****).

trooth.



.

mom23mangos

I do an active warmup going through range of motion in joints before working out. For DOMS, I do light cardio...walking, roller skating, swimming. I do active and passive stretching to obtain full range of motion in my joints. Mobility is pretty important to me. I do active stretching followed by strength sets of the antagonistic muscle to lock in range of motion. I usually do this after working out when my muscles are already warm. I do static passive stretching to hit the connective tissue and usually do that cold.

If you already have full ROM, mobility work including stretching is not needed. And if you are hypermobile, it probably does more harm than good. For people like me who have to fight for ROM, it helps. It has nothing to do with DOMS or injury prevention however. Well, OK somewhat with injury prevention because if you don't have full ROM, things are likely going to get jacked.

mph323

I do regular stretching for flexibility, but not for recovery (although I often do my flexibility stretching routine after aerobic exercise because I feel more, well, flexible at that point ). My understanding of the results of current studies is that stretching (and foam rolling, icing and other common recovery routines) can be useful between events for those doing multiple efforts in one day (like track runners doing several qualifying heats before the final race), but agree that the current thought is that recovery happens on it's own with adequate rest and nutrition.

I just finished reading this book: "Good to Go, What the Athlete in All of Us Can Learn from the Strange Science of Recovery", by Christie Aschwanden, and interestingly, her conclusiions after a deep dive into actual studies and interviews with various experts tracks right along with the OP.

heybales

I wonder how many of these studies use people that actually have issues besides the DOMS - as opposed to people generally without an issue anyway but merely getting it.

I'll also emphasize in my experience it's not about relieving or shortening DOMS - I'll ditto not seeing a difference there except for AR the next day usually.

But tendon/ligament issues that will be very worse if no stretching (which isn't DOMS) while warmed up.
Carefully tested in my case for my experience.

I wonder if a study on those with plantar fasciitis showing differences in recovery from workouts that effect it, between something done and nothing done.

I know one study for Achilles tendonitist where doing the negative heel drops did speed up recovery - but that's not a stretching-only effect, merely what occurs at bottom of drop.

Psychgrrl

SeattleBebop1 wrote: »

monkeefan1974 wrote: »

Question: is foam rolling considered a massage or stretching, or is it it’s own special thing? Because I’ve found stretching to be useless to me, massage is nice but yea doesn’t really help muscles... but foam rolling does the trick and I was super skeptical when I tried it but it works for me, no one can seem to concretely explain why though.

Foam rolling was recommended by the P.T. who I saw for a *bad* IT band injury. My right band can get super-tight but I have a high pain tolerance, hence I really screwed it up by continuing to hike through the pain. Foam rolling was encouraged to "break" up the tension. :shrugs: It worked, along with the other floor exercises. Even now, when my thighs get tension, the foam rolling provides instant relief.

In addition to foam rolling, I also use a percussive tool (Theragun). It has helped me immensely in my recovery.

I can’t attest to recovery after sprinting, but after weight-lifting, static stretching and foam rolling do help me immensely in minimizing DOMS. I also focus on stretches that counter my desk job, which for me helps relieve additional tension and aches.

DancingMoosie

I think it also depends on the exercise. We always stretch as part of the warm up for gymnastics and dance. I'd hate to jump into a floor routine or full split leap without stretching.

richardgavel

For me, the post run stretch isn't as much about recovery but reducing the muscle stiffness, which can help recovery in that it will allow you to move around more normally. But the biggest benefit is that the next run can go longer before the legs get sore and stiff.

aokoye

None of my stretching is about recovery. It's about maintaining flexibility and recognizing that if I don't stretch I will feel it in the way of pain and potential injury (not DOMS). I also just like stretching, I always have. Also my not so normal way of getting up from the floor involves taking full advantage of hamstring flexibility - the one time my back "went out" which then affected that was less than stellar.

Orphia

IMHO

Post-exercise static stretching/massage/foam rolling only "work" to the extent that they might help bloodflow in muscles.

A walk is far more effective.


As I said in the OP, and as @heybales and @mom23mangos mentioned, stretching is good for joints and tendons mobility, but unnecessary if you are hypermobile.


Stretching for leg splits has been shown not to help the muscles stretch but to get you used to the pain.

neugebauer52

Massage / physiotherapy is helping me with "damaged" rectus femoris and tensor fasciae latae muscles. I don't think those muscles are "damaged" but just fed up with the weight I started with: 170 kg, 375 pounds. With some weight loss (32 kg so far), the right exercise, massage and physio the pain is getting less and movement getting easier. Stretching exercises seems to reduce muscle stiffness, especially during water aerobics. As long as it helps me with weight loss, less pain and increased ability to move, I am happy.

snowflake954

I'm 65 with OA for a long time. I have also done an hour of stretching 3x a week for many years. I need to do it to loosen up. I especially do it before swimming or gym. I don't do my stretching routine during the summer--too hot. I can tell the difference on days I don't and during the summer. The benefits for me are awesome. I start my real workout nice and flexible. Then again, I don't pay much attention to studies. They're interesting, sure, but don't always apply.

snowflake954

Orphia wrote: »

IMHO

Post-exercise static stretching/massage/foam rolling only "work" to the extent that they might help bloodflow in muscles.

A walk is far more effective.


As I said in the OP, and as @heybales and @mom23mangos mentioned, stretching is good for joints and tendons mobility, but unnecessary if you are hypermobile.


Stretching for leg splits has been shown not to help the muscles stretch but to get you used to the pain.

However, you have to realize that your OP may not be understood by newcomers who, in certain cases, can benefit greatly from stretching. I've been stretching for over 30 yrs and find it very beneficial, but then again, I've always been stiff--even in my 20's.

aokoye

snowflake954 wrote: »

Orphia wrote: »

IMHO

Post-exercise static stretching/massage/foam rolling only "work" to the extent that they might help bloodflow in muscles.

A walk is far more effective.


As I said in the OP, and as @heybales and @mom23mangos mentioned, stretching is good for joints and tendons mobility, but unnecessary if you are hypermobile.


Stretching for leg splits has been shown not to help the muscles stretch but to get you used to the pain.

However, you have to realize that your OP may not be understood by newcomers who, in certain cases, can benefit greatly from stretching. I've been stretching for over 30 yrs and find it very beneficial, but then again, I've always been stiff--even in my 20's.

Also the title of the thread isn't representative of the article that was mentioned. It's a bit clickbaity. "Stretching and massage don't help muscles" is significantly more broad than, "Stretching Does Not Prevent or Treat DOMS". DOMS are far from the only complaints or issues one can have with regards to their muscles.

Theoldguy1

mom23mangos wrote: »

I do an active warmup going through range of motion in joints before working out. For DOMS, I do light cardio...walking, roller skating, swimming. I do active and passive stretching to obtain full range of motion in my joints. Mobility is pretty important to me. I do active stretching followed by strength sets of the antagonistic muscle to lock in range of motion. I usually do this after working out when my muscles are already warm. I do static passive stretching to hit the connective tissue and usually do that cold.

If you already have full ROM, mobility work including stretching is not needed. And if you are hypermobile, it probably does more harm than good. For people like me who have to fight for ROM, it helps. It has nothing to do with DOMS or injury prevention however. Well, OK somewhat with injury prevention because if you don't have full ROM, things are likely going to get jacked.

Bolded makes sense but doubtful many over the age of 25 have full ROM given our generally seated hunched over a computer and/or phone posture.

Orphia

snowflake954 wrote: »

Orphia wrote: »

IMHO

Post-exercise static stretching/massage/foam rolling only "work" to the extent that they might help bloodflow in muscles.

A walk is far more effective.


As I said in the OP, and as @heybales and @mom23mangos mentioned, stretching is good for joints and tendons mobility, but unnecessary if you are hypermobile.


Stretching for leg splits has been shown not to help the muscles stretch but to get you used to the pain.

However, you have to realize that your OP may not be understood by newcomers who, in certain cases, can benefit greatly from stretching. I've been stretching for over 30 yrs and find it very beneficial, but then again, I've always been stiff--even in my 20's.

What sort of warmup stretches do you mean?

Static or dynamic?

Could you give examples of how they help your muscles pre-exercise (not your joint/tendon mobility) other than increasing bloodflow?

aokoye wrote: »

snowflake954 wrote: »

Orphia wrote: »

IMHO

Post-exercise static stretching/massage/foam rolling only "work" to the extent that they might help bloodflow in muscles.

A walk is far more effective.


As I said in the OP, and as @heybales and @mom23mangos mentioned, stretching is good for joints and tendons mobility, but unnecessary if you are hypermobile.


Stretching for leg splits has been shown not to help the muscles stretch but to get you used to the pain.

However, you have to realize that your OP may not be understood by newcomers who, in certain cases, can benefit greatly from stretching. I've been stretching for over 30 yrs and find it very beneficial, but then again, I've always been stiff--even in my 20's.

Also the title of the thread isn't representative of the article that was mentioned. It's a bit clickbaity. "Stretching and massage don't help muscles" is significantly more broad than, "Stretching Does Not Prevent or Treat DOMS". DOMS are far from the only complaints or issues one can have with regards to their muscles.

Haha, welcome to the debate section. It was done on purpose, to create debate, and it's going quite well.

The discussion can't be dismissed due to the title.

Newcomers wouldn't probably know what DOMS was and wouldn't read the debate or learn anything.

Thanks for your contribution.

Carlos_421

Orphia wrote: »

snowflake954 wrote: »

Orphia wrote: »

IMHO

Post-exercise static stretching/massage/foam rolling only "work" to the extent that they might help bloodflow in muscles.

A walk is far more effective.


As I said in the OP, and as @heybales and @mom23mangos mentioned, stretching is good for joints and tendons mobility, but unnecessary if you are hypermobile.


Stretching for leg splits has been shown not to help the muscles stretch but to get you used to the pain.

However, you have to realize that your OP may not be understood by newcomers who, in certain cases, can benefit greatly from stretching. I've been stretching for over 30 yrs and find it very beneficial, but then again, I've always been stiff--even in my 20's.

What sort of warmup stretches do you mean?

Static or dynamic?

Could you give examples of how they help your muscles pre-exercise (not your joint/tendon mobility) other than increasing bloodflow?

aokoye wrote: »

snowflake954 wrote: »

Orphia wrote: »

IMHO

Post-exercise static stretching/massage/foam rolling only "work" to the extent that they might help bloodflow in muscles.

A walk is far more effective.


As I said in the OP, and as @heybales and @mom23mangos mentioned, stretching is good for joints and tendons mobility, but unnecessary if you are hypermobile.


Stretching for leg splits has been shown not to help the muscles stretch but to get you used to the pain.

However, you have to realize that your OP may not be understood by newcomers who, in certain cases, can benefit greatly from stretching. I've been stretching for over 30 yrs and find it very beneficial, but then again, I've always been stiff--even in my 20's.

Also the title of the thread isn't representative of the article that was mentioned. It's a bit clickbaity. "Stretching and massage don't help muscles" is significantly more broad than, "Stretching Does Not Prevent or Treat DOMS". DOMS are far from the only complaints or issues one can have with regards to their muscles.

Newcomers wouldn't probably know what DOMS was and wouldn't read the debate or learn anything.

So they'd just read your title and OP, take it at face value and conclude that there are no benefits to stretching at all or in any context...awesome.

And snowflake didn't specify warmup stretches. But then neither did you until now.

aokoye

Orphia wrote: »

Haha, welcome to the debate section. It was done on purpose, to create debate, and it's going quite well.

The discussion can't be dismissed due to the title.

Newcomers wouldn't probably know what DOMS was and wouldn't read the debate or learn anything.

Thanks for your contribution.

I find it sad that you need to rely on health illiteracy to create a debate.