Opinions on 2 a Days?
Spadesheart
Posts: 463 Member
What are peoples opinions on 2 a days? I watched a video of a trainer who got actors ready for roles and essentially worked on strengthening them within usually a 12 week span. He went through a number of actors and their physical and functional transformations. Bradley Cooper, John Krasinski, Emily Blunt, Alison Brie and a few others. His plans were always intense (of course) but also usually included 2 sessions 4 times a week for 4-8 weeks. Diet also played a heavy role in this; Bradley Cooper put on 40 pounds for American Sniper. I don't need to do this, ideally I want to lose 20 more pounds. I'm still in a deficit, with very high protein and a pesky plateau currently. Body composition is better though, and muscle has 100% grown where there wasn't any before. I likely have another 10-15 pounds of fat where that's possible based on some things I've read.
https://youtu.be/y5-R-TICKSw
I currently have a lot of free time; a lot of my business stuff is working on autopilot, and my part-time job isn't quite so demanding at this point. Before moving on with life, I wanted to get my health on the right track. I am working on rewriting my workout plan so I can stop injuring my lower back, with a healthier means of progression. However I feel like increasing volume if done in a healthy way might help strengthen me to aid in injury prevention. I think that's part of why I keep hurting my back. If squats were just based on leg strength alone I'd probably be able to put up a good deal more weight. Having less intense sessions might work as a good auxiliary strengthening tool.
In a very slight way, ideally I already do 2 workout sessions on my workout days; I usually do some core work in the morning with a couple other little things like stretching everyday, and lower back willing, I do my main weight training days 4-5 times a week currently (4 in the new plan.)
Obviously it's not sustainable forever, but is doing 2 a days safe if the auxiliary workout is less intense? Light to heavy cardio, body weight circuits, planks and core work, stretching, etc. This is also considering I'm in calorie deficit still and likely dont have as much resources to build muscle extremely quick like the actors in the video. If this is a viable plan for a month or two, I might increase my calorie consumption by a couple hundred for the duration to see if I could pack anything on.
Thanks for any opinions you may have!
https://youtu.be/y5-R-TICKSwI currently have a lot of free time; a lot of my business stuff is working on autopilot, and my part-time job isn't quite so demanding at this point. Before moving on with life, I wanted to get my health on the right track. I am working on rewriting my workout plan so I can stop injuring my lower back, with a healthier means of progression. However I feel like increasing volume if done in a healthy way might help strengthen me to aid in injury prevention. I think that's part of why I keep hurting my back. If squats were just based on leg strength alone I'd probably be able to put up a good deal more weight. Having less intense sessions might work as a good auxiliary strengthening tool.
In a very slight way, ideally I already do 2 workout sessions on my workout days; I usually do some core work in the morning with a couple other little things like stretching everyday, and lower back willing, I do my main weight training days 4-5 times a week currently (4 in the new plan.)
Obviously it's not sustainable forever, but is doing 2 a days safe if the auxiliary workout is less intense? Light to heavy cardio, body weight circuits, planks and core work, stretching, etc. This is also considering I'm in calorie deficit still and likely dont have as much resources to build muscle extremely quick like the actors in the video. If this is a viable plan for a month or two, I might increase my calorie consumption by a couple hundred for the duration to see if I could pack anything on.
Thanks for any opinions you may have!
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Replies
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I did the twice a day workout, not every day but three to four days a week, about a dozen years ago. I probably had my best conditioning and body appearance from the hard work. Was in my early 50's at the time. It works and so long as the training activities are those you're passionate about, chances are you'll achieve much success however you measure it.
But, it works best if you're a one-man band. I don't know how many triathletes I've met over the years who confess to sleeping on the couch or being married in a past tense sense. Doubles take a lot of time and at some point one questions are there better returns on investment for the time expended.
Good luck in solving this riddle.3 -
pierinifitness wrote: »I did the twice a day workout, not every day but three to four days a week, about a dozen years ago. I probably had my best conditioning and body appearance from the hard work. Was in my early 50's at the time. It works and so long as the training activities are those you're passionate about, chances are you'll achieve much success however you measure it.
But, it works best if you're a one-man band. I don't know how many triathletes I've met over the years who confess to sleeping on the couch or being married in a past tense sense. Doubles take a lot of time and at some point one questions are there better returns on investment for the time expended.
Good luck in solving this riddle.
Currently I am, but that will likely change in a couple months which is also part of why I've been trying to get a lot done quickly.
Also you're in your mid 60s? Well done man.0 -
Thanks @Spadesheart, born with the class of 1955 and soon to be, God willing, a Medicare man.1
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I'm the type of person to get really gung-ho about the gym but my wife and kids (thankfully) bring me back to reality. Any extra workouts I fit in either include them or I go without. I strength train twice a week though alone... can't really include them in this.
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I would think it's probably to break up a workout and do light cardio, yoga/flexbility training and some core work in the morning, followed by heavy lifting. The biggest thing you have to figure out is if you can adequate recover... which a lot of people, especially those who are older, will struggle with. It's already difficult to recover while in a deficit, so adding more exercise might make it more difficult.
The bigger thing is ensuring that you are not over taxing your body. So start off light and than increase volume and intensity as you go.
Keep in mind, that movie stars are paying thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, to stay and/or get in great shape. So they often include much more than just exercise. They also are doing things to improve recovery, etc...
I would also suggest that if you are doing to do 2x a day, that you should supplement with Creatine Monohydrate (which helps with volume) and 2-4g of L-Citrulline or 5-8g of Citrulline Malate. The latter two will help with recovery. And you should probably aim for 1 -1.2g of protein/lb.3 -
I would think it's probably to break up a workout and do light cardio, yoga/flexbility training and some core work in the morning, followed by heavy lifting. The biggest thing you have to figure out is if you can adequate recover... which a lot of people, especially those who are older, will struggle with. It's already difficult to recover while in a deficit, so adding more exercise might make it more difficult.
The bigger thing is ensuring that you are not over taxing your body. So start off light and than increase volume and intensity as you go.
Keep in mind, that movie stars are paying thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, to stay and/or get in great shape. So they often include much more than just exercise. They also are doing things to improve recovery, etc...
I would also suggest that if you are doing to do 2x a day, that you should supplement with Creatine Monohydrate (which helps with volume) and 2-4g of L-Citrulline or 5-8g of Citrulline Malate. The latter two will help with recovery. And you should probably aim for 1 -1.2g of protein/lb.
Honestly, if it wasn't for the constant lower back pain and recovery, I think I could workout 6 days a week fairly easily, which is why I was looking for alternatives to deadlifts and squats before. I only took 7 rest days from the gym in march, and 3 of them were at the end when my back issues first showed up. I don't necessarily think volume is the issue so much as certain weaknesses. Or at least I haven't hit the hard walls on the other muscles yet which I'm sure are coming.
So naturally to even get up to 1-1.2g protein which I'm guessing is calculated at goal weight, I would have to add probably around 300 calories a day; with some difficulty I currently get 0.8-1g. My rate of loss would probably be consistent though. I'd have to imagine that for at least the month or two I'd experiment with this, I'd probably average more than 300 calories more expenditure daily.
At least creatine is cheap from my supplier. 1 kg for 20 cad. 1 pound of the citrulline malate is 50 cad, which at 5 grams is a 3 month supply, no idea if that's competitive.0 -
I do 2 a days Mon- Thursday. Cardio in the morning, lifting twice a week, one afternoon run, and one piyo or something else in the evening. Saturday is usually kickboxing or circuit training, and Sunday is a longer run, weather permitting. It works for me. My lifting days are a full body routine.1
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If you are having back issues, that is the first thing you should fix with a PT prior to increasing exercise. Doing more while having injuries is only going to increase risk of re-injury and increase symptoms.3
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If you are having back issues, that is the first thing you should fix with a PT prior to increasing exercise. Doing more while having injuries is only going to increase risk of re-injury and increase symptoms.
I mean, it goes away after a few days every time, its just that squats and deads keep bringing them back if I push it and I need to rest for a couple days after. Main reason I was switching the plan; previously I would just try to beat the 1 rep max my workout tracking app provided every session, which is apparently not sustainable. Kind of sucks honestly. I don't think it's a chronic injury, just specifically from overexertion from specifically those exercises.0 -
Spadesheart wrote: »If you are having back issues, that is the first thing you should fix with a PT prior to increasing exercise. Doing more while having injuries is only going to increase risk of re-injury and increase symptoms.
I mean, it goes away after a few days every time, its just that squats and deads keep bringing them back if I push it and I need to rest for a couple days after. Main reason I was switching the plan; previously I would just try to beat the 1 rep max my workout tracking app provided every session, which is apparently not sustainable. Kind of sucks honestly. I don't think it's a chronic injury, just specifically from overexertion from specifically those exercises.
It actually sounds like your form might be wrong, your back should not be hurting from these exercises. I would start by lowering the weights by a lot and focus on perfecting your form. If it's possible maybe you can book a session or two with a personal trainer that can help you with your form.2 -
Spadesheart wrote: »If you are having back issues, that is the first thing you should fix with a PT prior to increasing exercise. Doing more while having injuries is only going to increase risk of re-injury and increase symptoms.
I mean, it goes away after a few days every time, its just that squats and deads keep bringing them back if I push it and I need to rest for a couple days after. Main reason I was switching the plan; previously I would just try to beat the 1 rep max my workout tracking app provided every session, which is apparently not sustainable. Kind of sucks honestly. I don't think it's a chronic injury, just specifically from overexertion from specifically those exercises.
Mike Israetel has some great info on Maximum Recoverable Volume. You can find him talking about it in podcasts. When you push near failure and reach for 1RM, you increase fatigue exponentially and impair your ability to recover. As psulemon said, the ability to recover would be the key issue with 2 a days.
Also, I would second the idea that if your back is hurting doing squats and DLs, your form could probably use work.2 -
BattyKnitter wrote: »Spadesheart wrote: »If you are having back issues, that is the first thing you should fix with a PT prior to increasing exercise. Doing more while having injuries is only going to increase risk of re-injury and increase symptoms.
I mean, it goes away after a few days every time, its just that squats and deads keep bringing them back if I push it and I need to rest for a couple days after. Main reason I was switching the plan; previously I would just try to beat the 1 rep max my workout tracking app provided every session, which is apparently not sustainable. Kind of sucks honestly. I don't think it's a chronic injury, just specifically from overexertion from specifically those exercises.
It actually sounds like your form might be wrong, your back should not be hurting from these exercises. I would start by lowering the weights by a lot and focus on perfecting your form. If it's possible maybe you can book a session or two with a personal trainer that can help you with your form.
I did, in a stupid way, and I'm going to again in a not stupid way haha! I'm just a moron. Went from 255 down to 155, but thought "hey the weight is less dangerous and doesn't feel super heavy on my back, I can probably still beat my 1 rep max with light weight." And did 1 set to 30, one to 20, and one to 38. And I'm still paying for it. Even my butt still hurts 4 days later but that's just muscle pain.
Switching around all my exercises to another plan with more metered progression so I can try to keep them in the rotation without destroying my spine. Lower back just has a little niggle of sharp pain left if I move the wrong way. Not sure if I want to start up again with the new plan today or give it one more rest day. Wouldn't have to do squats until the end of the week at least, but deads would be next session.
So yeah, I definitely need to take it easier with squats and deads.0 -
Spadesheart wrote: »If you are having back issues, that is the first thing you should fix with a PT prior to increasing exercise. Doing more while having injuries is only going to increase risk of re-injury and increase symptoms.
I mean, it goes away after a few days every time, its just that squats and deads keep bringing them back if I push it and I need to rest for a couple days after. Main reason I was switching the plan; previously I would just try to beat the 1 rep max my workout tracking app provided every session, which is apparently not sustainable. Kind of sucks honestly. I don't think it's a chronic injury, just specifically from overexertion from specifically those exercises.
Mike Israetel has some great info on Maximum Recoverable Volume. You can find him talking about it in podcasts. When you push near failure and reach for 1RM, you increase fatigue exponentially and impair your ability to recover. As psulemon said, the ability to recover would be the key issue with 2 a days.
Also, I would second the idea that if your back is hurting doing squats and DLs, your form could probably use work.
Yeah form could definitely use some work. I'm also very tall and that's probably not helping when it comes to stability.0 -
Keep in mind that progress shouldn't be measured in how often you beat your 1RM. It's measured in increases in total volume. The best thing I have ever done is check my ego at the door. And honestly, I only measure my 1RM once a year.. twice if I am that curious.
Also, keep in mind that all those celebs had customized plans and had a trainer with them at all times. Something I don't feel you are going to have.3 -
Spadesheart wrote: »BattyKnitter wrote: »Spadesheart wrote: »If you are having back issues, that is the first thing you should fix with a PT prior to increasing exercise. Doing more while having injuries is only going to increase risk of re-injury and increase symptoms.
I mean, it goes away after a few days every time, its just that squats and deads keep bringing them back if I push it and I need to rest for a couple days after. Main reason I was switching the plan; previously I would just try to beat the 1 rep max my workout tracking app provided every session, which is apparently not sustainable. Kind of sucks honestly. I don't think it's a chronic injury, just specifically from overexertion from specifically those exercises.
It actually sounds like your form might be wrong, your back should not be hurting from these exercises. I would start by lowering the weights by a lot and focus on perfecting your form. If it's possible maybe you can book a session or two with a personal trainer that can help you with your form.
I did, in a stupid way, and I'm going to again in a not stupid way haha! I'm just a moron. Went from 255 down to 155, but thought "hey the weight is less dangerous and doesn't feel super heavy on my back, I can probably still beat my 1 rep max with light weight." And did 1 set to 30, one to 20, and one to 38. And I'm still paying for it. Even my butt still hurts 4 days later but that's just muscle pain.
Switching around all my exercises to another plan with more metered progression so I can try to keep them in the rotation without destroying my spine. Lower back just has a little niggle of sharp pain left if I move the wrong way. Not sure if I want to start up again with the new plan today or give it one more rest day. Wouldn't have to do squats until the end of the week at least, but deads would be next session.
So yeah, I definitely need to take it easier with squats and deads.
Are you still losing 2+ lbs per week? If you are rushing weight loss with a steep deficit while rushing strength progression, you are handicapping yourself in every goal. You are more likely to injure yourself to the point you must stop working out, more likely to fatigue to the point you hit the energy wall and get literally sick, and more likely to get to goal so fatigued and out of willpower that you rebound dramatically and end up right back at square one.
So I would strongly suggest you at least drop the idea of 2 a days. Celebrities and athletes who go that route are working with a PT and a dietitian who is feeding them a heckuva lot more fuel than you're eating. If you keep piling one risk on top of another, eventually the whole thing is going to collapse. Focus on a sane, realistic progressive program, take your time, focus on your form, and make sure you are getting plenty of rest. You are asking for a ton from your body, putting it under a lot of stress, and not giving it much to keep going. Adding on to that isn't a great idea.
I feel like a mother hen who should offer to send you home with a plate of food
Sorry, I can't help being concerned! It's my nature... 9 -
Since you are describing an app conversion of 1RM to enough reps at your desired weight - that change in volume will indeed cause the effects you saw.
Take the time to recover.
And I've yet to see an app conversion that does it correctly - I'm wondering if you were actually doing greater than 1RM equivalent.
https://www.exrx.net/WeightTraining/Bodyweight#Calculating1RM
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Since you are describing an app conversion of 1RM to enough reps at your desired weight - that change in volume will indeed cause the effects you saw.
Take the time to recover.
And I've yet to see an app conversion that does it correctly - I'm wondering if you were actually doing greater than 1RM equivalent.
https://www.exrx.net/WeightTraining/Bodyweight#Calculating1RM
uhhhhhhhhhhhhh yup. So if I'm taking my engaged body weight into account, which according to the link above is 72% of my body weight, and then using that in the 1 rep max calculation, which I think is what they're suggesting, putting it into my app I get 694 1RM for 38*155, vs my previous record of 11*255 which comes out to 555.1 1RM. So if this is the accurate way to calculate it, the good news is I really crushed it, as this was a 20% increase vs the 2% increase I thought it was. The bad news is, that I also probably really crushed me, which makes sense 4 days of rest later.0 -
Spadesheart wrote: »BattyKnitter wrote: »Spadesheart wrote: »If you are having back issues, that is the first thing you should fix with a PT prior to increasing exercise. Doing more while having injuries is only going to increase risk of re-injury and increase symptoms.
I mean, it goes away after a few days every time, its just that squats and deads keep bringing them back if I push it and I need to rest for a couple days after. Main reason I was switching the plan; previously I would just try to beat the 1 rep max my workout tracking app provided every session, which is apparently not sustainable. Kind of sucks honestly. I don't think it's a chronic injury, just specifically from overexertion from specifically those exercises.
It actually sounds like your form might be wrong, your back should not be hurting from these exercises. I would start by lowering the weights by a lot and focus on perfecting your form. If it's possible maybe you can book a session or two with a personal trainer that can help you with your form.
I did, in a stupid way, and I'm going to again in a not stupid way haha! I'm just a moron. Went from 255 down to 155, but thought "hey the weight is less dangerous and doesn't feel super heavy on my back, I can probably still beat my 1 rep max with light weight." And did 1 set to 30, one to 20, and one to 38. And I'm still paying for it. Even my butt still hurts 4 days later but that's just muscle pain.
Switching around all my exercises to another plan with more metered progression so I can try to keep them in the rotation without destroying my spine. Lower back just has a little niggle of sharp pain left if I move the wrong way. Not sure if I want to start up again with the new plan today or give it one more rest day. Wouldn't have to do squats until the end of the week at least, but deads would be next session.
So yeah, I definitely need to take it easier with squats and deads.
Are you still losing 2+ lbs per week? If you are rushing weight loss with a steep deficit while rushing strength progression, you are handicapping yourself in every goal. You are more likely to injure yourself to the point you must stop working out, more likely to fatigue to the point you hit the energy wall and get literally sick, and more likely to get to goal so fatigued and out of willpower that you rebound dramatically and end up right back at square one.
So I would strongly suggest you at least drop the idea of 2 a days. Celebrities and athletes who go that route are working with a PT and a dietitian who is feeding them a heckuva lot more fuel than you're eating. If you keep piling one risk on top of another, eventually the whole thing is going to collapse. Focus on a sane, realistic progressive program, take your time, focus on your form, and make sure you are getting plenty of rest. You are asking for a ton from your body, putting it under a lot of stress, and not giving it much to keep going. Adding on to that isn't a great idea.
I feel like a mother hen who should offer to send you home with a plate of food Sorry, I can't help being concerned! It's my nature...
If I didn't want to hear different viewpoints, I wouldn't post questions on a public forum, don't worry haha
I'm still close to 2 pounds a week, have had a couple weeks of plateau though so probably a little less. My calorie consumption right now probably averages somewhere close to 1500, I simply can't hit the bare minimum anymore if I want to keep protein counts at 150 grams as was suggested with consistency.
I have been for the most part successful. It has required a good deal of finagling; workout sessions are always immediately after a meal, the high protein, some light supplementation of nutrients, but on the whole it's been working so far. Weight loss is relatively quick, with actual muscle and strength gain; definitely past the state of adaptation. I basically have had consistent personal bests every session. There will likely be a point where this is not possible anymore, and I am gauging that based on my body fat percentage, citing some conclusions from studies that I have read, though those may not be perfectly accurate, logical as they seem. That is other than lower back pain, which seems to be my... Achilles heel. Ironic sentence when talking about the human body.
If I can continue this way to goal, which is about another 20 pounds, It will only be a fairly short period before I can ease back up to maintenance, and then a slight recomposition. I suspect that I might have to slow down in the next 10, but that will be heavily based on body fat and strength maintenance, which is why I have been so aggressive with besting all my 1RMs so consistently. With exercise that engages my lower back, it would seem that I am at my wall though unless that area can be strengthened quite dramatically.
I would just add that I'm not soooooo crazy. I would add some extra calorie consumption if I did try to experiment with 2 a days, if that is a route that seems viable. Probably close to what was suggested; increasing the protein to 1-1.2 g for pound of goal weight.
I do always appreciate concern, mother hen, and I know it comes from a good, kind place. It also forces me to do more research on how to get things done when it's difficult. Personality strength/flaw.
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Keep in mind that progress shouldn't be measured in how often you beat your 1RM. It's measured in increases in total volume. The best thing I have ever done is check my ego at the door. And honestly, I only measure my 1RM once a year.. twice if I am that curious.
Also, keep in mind that all those celebs had customized plans and had a trainer with them at all times. Something I don't feel you are going to have.
Just wanted to emphasize, 1RM calculators are a freakin' joke & are @ best very rough estimates.
Equating 38 reps @ 155lbs to a 1 RM of 694lbs is a joke. Such ridiculous rep ranges involves more cardio capacity than actual strength. Real world vs. Models/Idealizations (apps, data plot points/estimates)...seems like a Millennial thing to not be able to distinguish between the two3 -
Keto_Vampire wrote: »Keep in mind that progress shouldn't be measured in how often you beat your 1RM. It's measured in increases in total volume. The best thing I have ever done is check my ego at the door. And honestly, I only measure my 1RM once a year.. twice if I am that curious.
Also, keep in mind that all those celebs had customized plans and had a trainer with them at all times. Something I don't feel you are going to have.
Just wanted to emphasize, 1RM calculators are a freakin' joke & are @ best very rough estimates.
Equating 38 reps @ 155lbs to a 1 RM of 694lbs is a joke. Such ridiculous rep ranges involves more cardio capacity than actual strength. Real world vs. Models/Idealizations (apps, data plot points/estimates)...seems like a Millennial thing to not be able to distinguish between the two
...are you that much older? I assumed you were in your 30s haha
It was just a thing to work towards, I don't put a crazy amount of stock in it. Initially I just wanted to push the muscle hard so I didn't lose anything while on the aggressive calorie deficit, and it seemed like a smart way to work towards strengthening. And then it just seemed to work so I kept doing it until now.0
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