Gaining weight despite being on point

psychod787

(Takes another deep breath) while I think reverse dieting can be effective for establishing NEW maintenance calories vs protected. After reading and listening I believe it does nothing to boost RMR/metabolism. We know rmr is suppressed by being in a deficit, it generally increases when returning to a eucaloric or hyper caloric intake. NEAT that had been suppressed often increases and the TEF goes up dt increased intake. I think this could be why people think it works. Though some experts recommend going directly to protected maintenance or even a slight surplus for psychologic and hormonal help.

psychod787

I used Kevin halls bwp. It takes metabolic adaptation into account. I used your old weight of 270 and activity lvl of lightly active 1.6 modifier. Age 30. Maintenance post diet is roughly 2600.

Noxxys

I'm not doing reverse dieting even though I should of a long time ago as it would of helped minimize the body fat I'm gaining at the moment, but with the weight I gained so far already there's no point now, best thing to do would be just eat at maintenance and lift heavy and pray my metabolic returns to normal and then next time I decide to lose weight again I'll do it the right way this time instead of crash deficit and I agree returning to a deficit right now will not help me at all it will just make matters worse.

psychod787

Noxxys wrote: »

I'm not doing reverse dieting even though I should of a long time ago as it would of helped minimize the body fat I'm gaining at the moment, but with the weight I gained so far already there's no point now, best thing to do would be just eat at maintenance and lift heavy and pray my metabolic returns to normal and then next time I decide to lose weight again I'll do it the right way this time instead of crash deficit and I agree returning to a deficit right now will not help me at all it will just make matters worse.

Best of luck. I just want to say, I love Layne Norton, but dont forget that he is driven by his own agenda. Look into research of Libeil and Rosenbaum. Kevin Hall. Other experts.

Noxxys

Thank you will look into them and likewise

AnnPT77

psychod787 wrote: »

AnnPT77 wrote: »

psychod787 wrote: »

Well.... in kind of the same boat my man. Lost a lot of weight quickly. You did not destroy your metabolism. I will say something a great person told me recently. Sometimes your leanest weight is not your ideal weight. I am becoming a believer in bf settling range vs set point. There is a weight that your body will settle at over time with diet, activity, lifestyle all line up. I would go into greater detail, but it would take too long. I am currently doing an experiment on myself to see if it is true. Feel free to friend me and reach out. I would only leave you with one piece of advice. Reverse dieting will probably do nothing for you. Do the research.

Reverse dieting helps some people. Doesn't help everyone. Worth a try, maybe. Little downside.

@AnnPT77 well.. yes or no. If the OP is still having hunger/hormone issues, is it wise to advice someone to go back into a deficit? Ok... let's bring on the woo's here but.... (takes a deep breath).... we know leptin is produced by fat cells. Its concentration is directly correlated to the size of fat cells. Many people think that it is a master hormone not only controlling hunger,satiety, but also thyroid, sex hormones ect by acting directly on the hypothalamus. Jmho, but is it WISE to advise someone already having what COULD be considered malnutrition issues to go back into a deficit ???

A reverse diet can start from anywhere: It doesn't have to start from a deficit.

But personally, I wouldn't recommend a reverse diet for OP right now, either, physically or psycologically. (Reverse diets can be useful in the abstract for some people with a depressed energy level; OP reports depressed energy level but that was not the clearest or most helpful or most complete comment in this context, so for that I apologize.

First and foremost, I'd recommend a doctor visit, to look at thyroid and nutritional issues (blood tests), and perhaps a Registered Dietician referral.

Something is amiss here. OP reports being 5'6", male, starting at a goal weight of 146 pounds, and gaining 30 pounds in 5 months (if I'm reading him right). He eats 2000-2500 calories (QS calculates an average of 2214), he works out 3 times a week (we don't know duration or modality), and has eaten anything from 100% to 25% of the exercise calories back while continuing to gain. The exercise calories come from a Fitbit that has a HRM.

For discussion purposes, I'll go with that 2214 calorie estimate (which should include the exercise calories eaten back, more or less, based on OP's report of eating more on exercise days). With 30 pounds gained in 5 months, we're looking at a daily calorie surplus in the vicinity of 700 calories (30 pounds is 3500 calories X 30 pounds = 105,000 extra calories stored as fat, very roughly; divided by about 150 days in 5 months to get 700). The implication is that OP's TDEE is actually 2214 - 700 or 1514, which is only very slightly more than he reports eating while losing weight (1400, though he ate back no exercise, so if it was still around 3 x 500 calories weekly exercise, his effective daily average intake was 1400 - 214 or 1186.

I didn't see where he told us how fast he lost weight at that intake, but it seems likely it was fast. (If we had more data, we could do comparative "TDEE guess" estimates from that.)

Regardless, now at 176, he's still gaining at 2214 average calories, which is only 418 calories above the Scooby guess BMR (which admittedly could be a high estimate if he's materially older than 30). But it doesn't make sense.

(Curiously, he's about the same height I am, and I maintain at about that gross calorie level . . . while mid-130s, a little more active athletically, but female and 63 years old. That's part of what makes it so surprising to me, and makes me suspect something is wrong.)

He reports "still experiencing other symptoms like lack of energy, lethargic during my workouts, always hungry all the time, never feeling full (satiated) unless i eat tons of food and lack of libido". His TDEE (based on data reported about intake/gain/etc.) is very low. His intake was, a few months back, VeryVery low. Nutritional issues will have been likely at that intake, I would think.

OP is reporting careful logging, no cheats, nothing missed (not sure how to think about that "never full unless I eat tons of food" idea in this context, but if that's rare it's NBD in the big picture).

It's possible that OP's maintenance calories are lower than average, so that the calculators and Fitbit overestimate his calorie burn. That's possible, but 700 calories worth of it is a low probability proposition.

The only other possible source of variation I can think of is the exercise being significantly over-estimated (which HRM devices will of course do, in some cases, for weight training, HIIT, and even regular intervals; and depending on the nature of the exercise, the net vs. gross exercise calories issue could be in there too (if long-duration mild exercise). But overestimating exercise, if exercise is 500 calories X 3 times a week or 1500 calories, doesn't begin to explain a 700 calorie daily gap.

Doctor. I'd recommend doctor.

Reverse diet could have role sometime in the future, given low intake and depressed energy level.

But doctor first.

While waiting for the appointment: OP, how is your nutrition? Are you hitting protein, fats goals as minimums, routinely? Eating plenty of veggies and fruits (at least 5 servings daily, more if possible)?

Hang in there, OP, you can figure this out, and I'm betting you can eventually get to feeling better, while maintaining weight, too.

Best wishes!

nooboots

It might be my 'fat brain' but 10.5 stone for a man seems very low. Im the same height and Im aiming for 12.5 stone (might never make it, might have to settle for about 14 stone)

whmscll

What is a reverse diet?

AnnPT77

whmscll wrote: »

What is a reverse diet?

Simplistically: Slowly increasing calories, a little bit every once in a while over a long period of time, in the hopes that NEAT (and maybe RMR) will improve at gradually higher calories to produce a higher eventual TDEE. There are various structured protocols people use, but that's the gist.

SueSueDio

nooboots wrote: »

It might be my 'fat brain' but 10.5 stone for a man seems very low. Im the same height and Im aiming for 12.5 stone (might never make it, might have to settle for about 14 stone)

Not necessarily - depends on his aesthetic goals I guess.

I'm also 5'6" and female, and the healthy range goes up to 11st (154lbs) for us... the range for men is probably not greatly different (I haven't looked it up, but I'm guessing a few pounds more for men). I'm very sedentary so my maintenance calories are low and I can't really help with the OP's issue, but I just wanted to point out that he's not necessarily aiming for a weight that's "too low" for a male of his height.

Pamela_Sue

When you reached your goal, did you gradually increase deficit calories up to maintenance calories over time, or did you jump from deficit calories directly to maintenance calories? I don't know if this makes a difference, but am throwing the question out there.

psychod787

apullum wrote: »

Your calorie calculation is off somewhere, and/or there's an undiagnosed medical issue going on. It's possible that your Fitbit is overstating your calorie burn, which happens sometimes. Even an HRM can get it wrong in some situations. You might also be unintentionally using bad MFP database entries. Still, 30 pounds in 5 months seems like more than just a few bad entries and a little bit of exercise calorie inaccuracy. That indicates an average surplus of approximately 700 calories a day [(3500 cals/pound * 30 pounds)/150 days], which is way more than what I'd expect from minor logging errors.

Here's what I'd do:
- Have folks double check your MFP food log by making it public.
- If you haven't had a medical checkup recently, do that and make sure everything's in order.
- Go back into a deficit to reach the weight you want to maintain.
- Once you get back to your goal weight, "reverse diet" by gradually adding calories back until your weight stabilizes. That's your maintenance calorie goal.

Ok. I just wanted to add, imho, there is something OP is not telling us. I am n=1 here, but I have been on a "bulking" aka regain cycle for 6 months. My predicted tdee by most calculators have ne at 3100 calories a day. My actual level is more like 3300-3400. I have had roughly 10lbs of weight gain over that 6 months. My average intake was 3600. My weight gain was more rapid at first and then began to slow down after 8lbs or so. Why? Well my tdee went up as I was carrying more mass. TDEE goes up 80-110 calories per 10lbs on average. So.... math is not adding up. Jmho

AnnPT77

psychod787 wrote: »

apullum wrote: »

Your calorie calculation is off somewhere, and/or there's an undiagnosed medical issue going on. It's possible that your Fitbit is overstating your calorie burn, which happens sometimes. Even an HRM can get it wrong in some situations. You might also be unintentionally using bad MFP database entries. Still, 30 pounds in 5 months seems like more than just a few bad entries and a little bit of exercise calorie inaccuracy. That indicates an average surplus of approximately 700 calories a day [(3500 cals/pound * 30 pounds)/150 days], which is way more than what I'd expect from minor logging errors.

Here's what I'd do:
- Have folks double check your MFP food log by making it public.
- If you haven't had a medical checkup recently, do that and make sure everything's in order.
- Go back into a deficit to reach the weight you want to maintain.
- Once you get back to your goal weight, "reverse diet" by gradually adding calories back until your weight stabilizes. That's your maintenance calorie goal.

Ok. I just wanted to add, imho, there is something OP is not telling us. I am n=1 here, but I have been on a "bulking" aka regain cycle for 6 months. My predicted tdee by most calculators have ne at 3100 calories a day. My actual level is more like 3300-3400. I have had roughly 10lbs of weight gain over that 6 months. My average intake was 3600. My weight gain was more rapid at first and then began to slow down after 8lbs or so. Why? Well my tdee went up as I was carrying more mass. TDEE goes up 80-110 calories per 10lbs on average. So.... math is not adding up. Jmho

I 100% agree with the bold . . . but feel like it's important to leave room for the possibility that he's not telling us because he doesn't know himself.

psychod787

AnnPT77 wrote: »

psychod787 wrote: »

apullum wrote: »

Your calorie calculation is off somewhere, and/or there's an undiagnosed medical issue going on. It's possible that your Fitbit is overstating your calorie burn, which happens sometimes. Even an HRM can get it wrong in some situations. You might also be unintentionally using bad MFP database entries. Still, 30 pounds in 5 months seems like more than just a few bad entries and a little bit of exercise calorie inaccuracy. That indicates an average surplus of approximately 700 calories a day [(3500 cals/pound * 30 pounds)/150 days], which is way more than what I'd expect from minor logging errors.

Here's what I'd do:
- Have folks double check your MFP food log by making it public.
- If you haven't had a medical checkup recently, do that and make sure everything's in order.
- Go back into a deficit to reach the weight you want to maintain.
- Once you get back to your goal weight, "reverse diet" by gradually adding calories back until your weight stabilizes. That's your maintenance calorie goal.

Ok. I just wanted to add, imho, there is something OP is not telling us. I am n=1 here, but I have been on a "bulking" aka regain cycle for 6 months. My predicted tdee by most calculators have ne at 3100 calories a day. My actual level is more like 3300-3400. I have had roughly 10lbs of weight gain over that 6 months. My average intake was 3600. My weight gain was more rapid at first and then began to slow down after 8lbs or so. Why? Well my tdee went up as I was carrying more mass. TDEE goes up 80-110 calories per 10lbs on average. So.... math is not adding up. Jmho

I 100% agree with the bold . . . but feel like it's important to leave room for the possibility that he's not telling us because he doesn't know himself.

This could be true. If he is eating out a lot. Having someone else cook his food... ect. I can state, as @quiksilver1606 can attest, most 95% or so of my intake was made in my kitchen from single ingredient weighed food. Was not until this month that I took the advice of a professional who deals with body comp work to lighten the *kitten* up and let my body kind of guide me some.