This is scary. Woman dies of heart attack at gym

gcadmes

Sad, all this negative banter flowing on this thread. I tried to redeem it and turn it positive by posting about SCD, and to get early screenings... but apparently negativism seems to prevail here.


Again, that's http://heartfeltcardiacprojects.org/

disasterman

I don't know you but I would render assistance to you or anyone in your family anyhow if you needed it.

If you are in WA law there is clear in providing immunity from liability for assistance rendered so it's beyond me why you would need to mount an extremely expensive defense for a rib cracked by CPR since this is such a common occurence. Here in California, I can find one successful case which wasn't to do with CPR but with the good samaritan dragging a car crash victim out of the car . After a ruling by the California Supreme Court, the Legislature essentially re-wrote the law to remove the "exceptions" that allowed the case to succeed. The intent of the Legislature is clearly to affirm protections for lay people who choose to help [http://www.scribd.com/doc/19406102/Good-Samaritan-Liability-in-CA-2009] .

In any event I stand by my point which is, while there is no guarantee you won't be sued for helping, it is extremely unlikely that you would be successfully sued for doing so and that, in any case, there are no iron clad guarantess WHATEVER you choose to do or not do. For me, the balance is tipped because I believe that attempting to save another person's life if I have the opportunity and the skill to do so is an ethically superior choice. I realize and accept that some people have a different sense of ethics and I don't need you to explain Objectivism to me- but I remain glad that there are more people who share my view on this and would put themselves at "risk" to help me or my children if I needed it.

It's very difficult to find examples of successful lawsuits against good samaritans and I can only conclude that this is because there aren't very many.

And, although it's wildly off topic and odd that you would mention it in the context of a discussion about CPR, I couldn't care less whether you concealed carry, open carry, or don't carry at all. I believe people should be self sufficient and able to protect themselves. That said, it is my experience that many people who seem to me to be obssessed with these issues also seem to be focused on helping themselves to the excusion of helping others in any way including interacting positively with their communities, local government, and other people in order to make the world a better place. Whether or not you share those characteristics I have no idea because, as you so astutely pointed out, I don't even know you.

Glad there aren't more people like you.

Aw, but you don't even know me. I'll need like, two positive affirmations today just because of you. heh. I'll log your opinion in the circular file.

What was the outcome of the lawsuit, by the way?

An extremely expensive defense ultimately leading to a settlement.

You could be sued for doing nothing

Correct.

- but that would almost certainly be thrown out

Incorrect, unless you have a citation of data supporting that.

How many successful lawsuits have there been in this country against laypeople who performed CPR?

Do share, along with your data of what qualifies as lawsuits against negligent or idiotic people.

that's your argument in court and you will win.

No. Thanks for playing.

ETA - I bet you also hate that I concealed carry.

bostonwolf

ETA - now, to aid you, I know in my state that I'm protected as long as I don't act with wilful or wanton misconduct or gross negligence. Since I'm not CPR certified, any freshly minted lawyer can easily prove negligence or wilful misconduct if I were to render CPR without being directed to.

That same lawyer wouldn't have any trouble arguing that watching someone die without attempting to help would be wanton misconduct or gross negligence. Right?

I'm not sure how doing chest compressions to save someone's life, even without CPR certification, would be viewed as wanton misconduct or gross negligence. The key words being "wanton" and "gross."

Doing nothing, however?

MsEndomorph

Sad, all this negative banter flowing on this thread. I tried to redeem it and turn it positive by posting about SCD, and to get early screenings... but apparently negativism seems to prevail here.


Again, that's http://heartfeltcardiacprojects.org/

Sorry! It just irks me that incorrect information posted on the Internet could persuade people to watch each other die for fear of lawsuit.

There are worse things than being sued.

When my husband and I were maybe 22 years old, we were the first on the scene of a horrible car crash. A woman's car ran off the road and flipped god knows how many times. My husband is a layperson and I hadn't been through nursing school at the time, so we had no clue what to do.

She was alive and screaming, so we broke a window and got her out of the car. Turns out she was screaming "My baby! My baby!" Her newborn (and his carseat) were ejected out of the car and across the road.

My husband was the one who went to get the baby. All the infant CPR in the world wasn't enough. The mother needed to stay somewhat calm and still until EMS made it, so all my husband knew to do was hold the baby and tell the mom people were coming to help him.

My husband has honestly never been the same. I'd give that woman $10,000 RIGHT NOW if we could trade deceased baby for a cracked rib. But we can't. At least we did everything we knew to do.

Anyway, yes, people go get your physicals. Get screened. Get CPR certified because you never know when you might need it.

Out.

jofjltncb6

Planet Fitness does not technically classify themselves as a gym, which allows them to exploit many loopholes in terms of staffing and training to minimize overhead.

In...

...to tag this nugget of wisdom for future PF threads.

disasterman

I was going to say something similar; getting correct information about the legal non-risks of performing CPR can save lives! Also, that's a cool link about screening and thanks for sharing it.

Sad, all this negative banter flowing on this thread. I tried to redeem it and turn it positive by posting about SCD, and to get early screenings... but apparently negativism seems to prevail here.


Again, that's http://heartfeltcardiacprojects.org/

Sorry! It just irks me that incorrect information posted on the Internet could persuade people to watch each other die for fear of lawsuit.

There are worse things than being sued.

When my husband and I were maybe 22 years old, we were the first on the scene of a horrible car crash. A woman's car ran off the road and flipped god knows how many times. My husband is a layperson and I hadn't been through nursing school at the time, so we had no clue what to do.

She was alive and screaming, so we broke a window and got her out of the car. Turns out she was screaming "My baby! My baby!" Her newborn (and his carseat) were ejected out of the car and across the road.

My husband was the one who went to get the baby. All the infant CPR in the world wasn't enough. The mother needed to stay somewhat calm and still until EMS made it, so all my husband knew to do was hold the baby and tell the mom people were coming to help him.

My husband has honestly never been the same. I'd give that woman $10,000 RIGHT NOW if we could trade deceased baby for a cracked rib. But we can't. At least we did everything we knew to do.

Anyway, yes, people go get your physicals. Get screened. Get CPR certified because you never know when you might need it.

Out.

granitendirt

Let me take this opportunity to suggest we all get CPR and First Aid certified. Because any time you're around people, whether it's at the gym, or in a restaurant, at your place of work, or just walking down the street--- unexpected emergencies can happen.

Maybe if wouldn't have made a difference if the lady who first noticed the incident knew CPR and was able to use her phone to contact 911 immediately. Maybe it would have made all the difference.

Certification classes are often inexpensive or free at local community centers.

I'm signed up at a community college to take classes this fall that will certify me at the EMT-Basic level. While a bit extreme for most people, I've found that due to my lifestyle and activities (rock climbing, horseback riding, backpacking, Search and Rescue) I really want to have that extra skill set under my belt.

I've already found myself in several situations where knowledge of basic first aid has come in handy - mostly involving heat-related illness. Then, there have been times involving more complicated scenarios where I felt completely helpless.

Also, to add some inspiration - here is a story of a person at my gym in town who had a heart attack after a workout, but the outcome was fortunate due to quick response of trained personnel. It's sad that the woman in the OP did not have access to such services.

At Oregon State University in 2009, taken from their 2008-2009 annual report:

"Great training and remarkable teamwork meant a
second chance at life for one of our Recreational Sports
members this spring. Student employees Miles,
Joey, Ben and Lindsay, all trained
in life saving and sustaining safety protocols and
certified in CPR and First Aid as a requirement of their
employment at RecSports, responded quickly and
efficiently to the life-threatening situtation.

Lindsay was working at West Entry when a
participant notified her that someone had fallen in the
men’s locker room. Lindsay immediately radioed Miles
who found a 50-year-old man, not breathing and uncon-
scious. Miles radioed Lindsay with the man’s condition
and asked her to call 911, which she did. Just as Lindsay
was about to break social protocols and barge into
the men’s locker room to bring Miles the First Aid kit,
another employee, Ben, came walking through
the front door. Lindsay looked at Ben and barked, “First
aid kit! Men’s locker room! Heart attack!”
Ben recalls the range of emotions he first felt and the
jumble of thoughts that joined them. There was the
initial panic as he raced towards the locker room, then
instinct kicked in to respond according to his training.
A surge of confidence followed the moment that he saw
his co-worker and good friend, Joey, rounding
the corner into the locker room with the AED
(automated external defibrillator).

In the locker room, Miles and Joey were preparing the
AED for use. Ben cut the man’s shirt off and applied the
AED pads to the man’s chest. The three worked together
seamlessly to apply the life-saving techniques they
had been taught. Meanwhile, outside the locker room,
Lindsay did crowd control and directed the EMTs when
they arrived.

Thankfully, the actions taken by these four employees
resulted in the participant defying the odds and surviving
his heart attack. It also led to an experience that these
four will never forget and a special bond that they will
always share.

fbmandy55

Two things that stood out the most to me, the first woman nonchalantly walking up to the desk to report her collapsing (um, perhaps step it up a bit) and two the guy not calling 911 right away. Fine, you can't go in the bathroom, but call 911 at the very least!! Planet Fitness sucks on so many levels, but this takes the cake.

Planet Fitness is a franchise. Most are owned by different individuals

They fact that this took place at PF has absolutely NOTHING to do with the tragedy..

k8blujay2

It's true that AEDs are required to be on site, but I'm a little skeptical about the requirement for a "trainer operator" at all times. How could places like Anytime Fitness operate?

They really aren't that hard to use... the instructions are right on the machine... and you can combine it with a First Aid and CPR class (which many Employers like you to have anyway)... there is just no excuse to not no how to work one.

LilRedRooster

"Charnas also said the gym did not have an automated external defibrillator or an employee certified in the operation of AEDs on site at the time, as the law requires."

So much about this story is awful, but this ESPECIALLY gets to me.

Seriously. THAT was terrible.

k8blujay2

ETA - now, to aid you, I know in my state that I'm protected as long as I don't act with wilful or wanton misconduct or gross negligence. Since I'm not CPR certified, any freshly minted lawyer can easily prove negligence or wilful misconduct if I were to render CPR without being directed to.

That same lawyer wouldn't have any trouble arguing that watching someone die without attempting to help would be wanton misconduct or gross negligence. Right?

I'm not sure how doing chest compressions to save someone's life, even without CPR certification, would be viewed as wanton misconduct or gross negligence. The key words being "wanton" and "gross."

Doing nothing, however?

I know that in some States doing something you aren't trained for can also be considered negligence. Since my certifications have lapsed and I have never had any higher training than is what is required for a lifeguard (as opposed to my husband who used to be a paramedic). I will not preform CPR right now because it has changed and I don't know what those changes are. So all I'm going to do is call 911.

dazzer1975

So all I'm going to do is call 911.

But i bet it wouldn't take you 5 minutes to ring them. I'd hope not anyway

k8blujay2

Let me take this opportunity to suggest we all get CPR and First Aid certified. Because any time you're around people, whether it's at the gym, or in a restaurant, at your place of work, or just walking down the street--- unexpected emergencies can happen.

Maybe if wouldn't have made a difference if the lady who first noticed the incident knew CPR and was able to use her phone to contact 911 immediately. Maybe it would have made all the difference.

Certification classes are often inexpensive or free at local community centers.

Only thing I would add is to be aware of potential liability. Some states still don't have Good Samaritan laws.

This... In this sue happy country I wouldn't touch anyone unfortunately.

I didn't consider that. Check your laws. We have Good Samaritan laws in Missouri.

Also in my state as a medical professional if you don't stop and offer help you can be liable, but we do have good samaratian laws in Florida,

This is the Same in Texas and I believe Oklahoma.

k8blujay2

So all I'm going to do is call 911.

But i bet it wouldn't take you 5 minutes to ring them. I'd hope not anyway

Nope... that is ridiculous.. 5 minutes is way too long to be honest... by then a dispatcher could have directed you on how to administer CPR and you could have saved the person by then... or at least keep them alive long enough for the EMT/Paramedic's to get there.

disasterman

If you need to do chest compressions they're already dead so there's no valid argument that performing CPR is somehow negligent. What could you possibly do to make the situation worse? If you do nothing, they will remain dead. If you do something, they might not remain dead. Even the dumbest jurors can understand this.

If you pushed a trained responder out of the way to do CPR, that would be a different story. But if you're the only one who can help

ETA - now, to aid you, I know in my state that I'm protected as long as I don't act with wilful or wanton misconduct or gross negligence. Since I'm not CPR certified, any freshly minted lawyer can easily prove negligence or wilful misconduct if I were to render CPR without being directed to.

That same lawyer wouldn't have any trouble arguing that watching someone die without attempting to help would be wanton misconduct or gross negligence. Right?

I'm not sure how doing chest compressions to save someone's life, even without CPR certification, would be viewed as wanton misconduct or gross negligence. The key words being "wanton" and "gross."

Doing nothing, however?

I know that in some States doing something you aren't trained for can also be considered negligence. Since my certifications have lapsed and I have never had any higher training than is what is required for a lifeguard (as opposed to my husband who used to be a paramedic). I will not preform CPR right now because it has changed and I don't know what those changes are. So all I'm going to do is call 911.

clepant

I had a colleague and friend die a couple of years ago at age 42. She was physically fit, a runner, very healthy eater. She was working out on her treadmill Mother's Day morning and then went in to take a shower. Her daughter came to get her because they were going to brunch. She found her collapsed in the bathroom. Her aorta ruptured....and she basically bled out. Nothing anyone could do. Sadly things like this take place in a health club.

madworld1

Wow. I am so sad for her family.

ironanimal

Two things that stood out the most to me, the first woman nonchalantly walking up to the desk to report her collapsing (um, perhaps step it up a bit) and two the guy not calling 911 right away. Fine, you can't go in the bathroom, but call 911 at the very least!! Planet Fitness sucks on so many levels, but this takes the cake.

What got me was that the staff did refuse to enter the women's changing room.

I worked as a Lifeguard/General staff at a Leisure Centre (sports facility with other activities) for 2 years, and on several ocassions had to enter the women's changing room. All I did was yell in to the changing room to tell the patrons I was coming, and if they were in a state of undress and with no towel around them a few seconds later, tough ****.

Nobody ever complained about it - emergencies need to be dealt with, and there wasn't always female staff available.

Also, we weren't required to have a defib on site, nor an operator, but the only staff that WEREN'T CPR trained were the reception staff, and there was always a line reserved for police and ambulance.

She didn't need to die. What a waste of life.

granitendirt

Protocol involving administration of potential life-saving procedures involves a ton of grey area. If you are a trained EMT responding to an incident as an EMT, yes, you will be in a *kitten* ton of trouble if you try and act at a higher level than you are trained. But if you're in a different situation, acting as a citizen and not representing an agency, there is more leniency.

I'm a certified Search and Rescue volunteer. When it comes to wilderness first aid, there is even more grey area. Some procedures I'd get in trouble for doing - however, if I add in wilderness factors (such as delayed official response), all of a sudden I can attempt treatments that I've been trained for, but otherwise am not supposed to do (such as re-setting fractures).

While not applicable to most on this board, it's an example of uncertainty.

Just this last Monday I attended a 2 hour training on Oregon EMS protocol. The take away message from the instructor, who is an EMS physician: Protocol is weird, and there are a lot of holes in it. But don't let that be a barrier to trying to save someone's life.

LoraF83

If you need to do chest compressions they're already dead so there's no valid argument that performing CPR is somehow negligent. What could you possibly do to make the situation worse? If you do nothing, they will remain dead. If you do something, they might not remain dead. Even the dumbest jurors can understand this.

What about the situations where someone passes out, has a faint pulse or the pulse is hard to find due to excess weight or other problems, and the person attempting to administer assistance mistakes that for a lack of a pulse?

And if you're doing CPR, the individual is not dead. The patient could be in ventricular fibrillation or ventricular tachycardia. In either situation, the heart still has electrical activity, but is not pumping blood to the rest of the body. Therefore there is no pulse. CPR and/or the use of an AED can restart the heart, causing the electrical activity to work properly again, making blood flow and therefore producing a pulse.

If someone has no electrical activity, then they truly are deceased and no amount of CPR or use of an AED will provide a remedy for that. However, there is absolutely no way of knowing if the individual has any electrical activity or not, without the use of medical equipment.

ajaxe432

EDIT: Also, there is NO REASON strong enough to convince me that everyone should have a physical check up once a year to assess their basic health.

[/quote] Confused by this statement. Do you agree with physical check ups once a year, or do you not...possibly mistype?

JUDDDing

I will not preform CPR right now because it has changed and I don't know what those changes are. So all I'm going to do is call 911.

It's just chest compressions now. No more breathing. But that's it.

The 911 operator would walk you through it.

lj8576

That could have been me a year ago! Before I wanted to start racing, my mom made me get my heart checked out (that was 2008) Turned out I had a life threatening heart condition and I had to call all the hard training and races off.

You would never think a slim, fit, young woman would need heart surgery, but I did last summer. And now, cured!

Getting a physical will not figure out if you have a heart problem. You have to request special testing. I recommend everyone do that.

It happened to me too. I had a quadruple bypass at 42. Luckily I had an attentive doctor who actually paid attention to my family history and some minor chest pain I was having. The cardiologist said I would have had a heart attack in the next 6 mos which I would never have survived

disasterman

Not sure what your point or question is. What about those situations? I could re-word my sentence to say they are dead or as good as dead ETA: as far as you can tell, and unless you do something but it doesn't change the basic black and white of the situation in any real way.

If you need to do chest compressions they're already dead so there's no valid argument that performing CPR is somehow negligent. What could you possibly do to make the situation worse? If you do nothing, they will remain dead. If you do something, they might not remain dead. Even the dumbest jurors can understand this.

What about the situations where someone passes out, has a faint pulse or the pulse is hard to find due to excess weight or other problems, and the person attempting to administer assistance mistakes that for a lack of a pulse?

And if you're doing CPR, the individual is not dead. The patient could be in ventricular fibrillation or ventricular tachycardia. In either situation, the heart still has electrical activity, but is not pumping blood to the rest of the body. Therefore there is no pulse. CPR and/or the use of an AED can restart the heart, causing the electrical activity to work properly again, making blood flow and therefore producing a pulse.

If someone has no electrical activity, then they truly are deceased and no amount of CPR or use of an AED will provide a remedy for that. However, there is absolutely no way of knowing if the individual has any electrical activity or not, without the use of medical equipment.

PapaverSomniferum

If you need to do chest compressions they're already dead so there's no valid argument that performing CPR is somehow negligent. What could you possibly do to make the situation worse? If you do nothing, they will remain dead. If you do something, they might not remain dead. Even the dumbest jurors can understand this.

What about the situations where someone passes out, has a faint pulse or the pulse is hard to find due to excess weight or other problems, and the person attempting to administer assistance mistakes that for a lack of a pulse?

And if you're doing CPR, the individual is not dead. The patient could be in ventricular fibrillation or ventricular tachycardia. In either situation, the heart still has electrical activity, but is not pumping blood to the rest of the body. Therefore there is no pulse. CPR and/or the use of an AED can restart the heart, causing the electrical activity to work properly again, making blood flow and therefore producing a pulse.

If someone has no electrical activity, then they truly are deceased and no amount of CPR or use of an AED will provide a remedy for that. However, there is absolutely no way of knowing if the individual has any electrical activity or not, without the use of medical equipment.

CPR is to be administered when a person stops breathing, in an effort to keep oxygen pumping as best as possible until medically trained personnel arrive. Pulse or no pulse. It fails more often than not, in fact, it is usually useless--- if the aorta is ruptured and bleeding out you're toast and no AED is going to show up and re-start that business.

However, in situations where keeping the oxygen pumping for those precious few seconds between the emergency event and the arrival of life-saving humans/technology; CPR can work miracles.

It's all about swift response. And in this particular instance, the sluggish reaction of the witness and the staff may have been the nail in that lady's coffin.

teamAmelia

EDIT: Also, there is NO REASON strong enough to convince me that everyone should have a physical check up once a year to assess their basic health.

Confused by this statement. Do you agree with physical check ups once a year, or do you not...possibly mistype?

Well, my company pays us to get physicals every year, so there must be something to it. They think that you can catch some diseases early and cut the company insurance costs if you take care of it at that stage rather than later when you have to have surgeries, etc bc you waited years... You have to get physicals each year that you want to play a school sport, too (or, at least you did when I was in school).

Donald_Dozier_50

I had my EKG, EEG and Stress Test done at the beginning of dieting...... all is good. Yes that is scary.

dbmata

That same lawyer wouldn't have any trouble arguing that watching someone die without attempting to help would be wanton misconduct or gross negligence. Right?

That's a good question. Could someone who calls 911 for an event but is not trained to render aid and does not render aid. Could that be considered misconduct or negligence? Well, we can guess all day, I'd say yes, you could be sued for it, but that suit wouldn't go far, and would cost you less than your average car. Let's not forget, MA in particular frowns on self help. If I'm not trained to help you, the best I can do for you is to call for a first responder, and render what aid I can, if I'm untrained, best aid I can provide is to be a witness and not obstruct the scene. Now, if 911 tells me to perform X action and I don't, could I be held negligent? That's another good question.

I'm not sure how doing chest compressions to save someone's life, even without CPR certification, would be viewed as wanton misconduct or gross negligence. The key words being "wanton" and "gross."

Oh that's easy, you aren't trained. That could easily be argued as gross negligence, particularly if you saved the person and caused them injury in the process. Hell, I've seen that happen even to someone who teaches CPR training for the Red Cross.

dbmata

Planet Fitness does not technically classify themselves as a gym, which allows them to exploit many loopholes in terms of staffing and training to minimize overhead.

In...

...to tag this nugget of wisdom for future PF threads.

Then what are they classified as? Pizza buffet? Nightclub? Adult daycare? At some point, even if they don't classify themselves as something, they advertise themselves as a gym, isn't that enough to require adherence to gym specific legislation?

215jenn

I will not preform CPR right now because it has changed and I don't know what those changes are. So all I'm going to do is call 911.

It's just chest compressions now. No more breathing. But that's it.

The 911 operator would walk you through it.

And, there's a beat minimum you should try to keep. Compressions at least 2 inches deep into the chest, at 80 beats a minute. Just hum "Staying Alive" in your head and that's the right rhythm.