Curious about day-to-day CICO in people who are maintaining naturally

oat_bran
oat_bran Posts: 370 Member
edited July 2019 in Health and Weight Loss
I've been on and off trying to lose weight for so long that I've forgotten what it's like to not count calories and simply rely on hunger cues to maintain your weight. I have lots of friends who are maintaining a healthy weight naturally and some of them don't even know what calories really are and I've been really curious to imagine what their day-to-day CICO is like. I've been observing these people's eating habits and I imagine that they are not eating the equivalent of their TDEE every singly day and that some day they go over their TDEE and some day it's less. And that maybe there are actually small fluctuations in their weight. And I've been really curious to know by how much? Like, it would be so interesting to see a spreadsheet of a day-to-day CICO of someone who is maintaining their weight without counting calories or trying to control their intake consciously in any way. The problem with that is though that as soon as you start monitoring someone's intake, they will become conscious of it and it'll probably effect the results...

If you've maintained naturally in the past or have partners/roommates/family members who do, what are your estimates of their day-to-day CICO ?

Replies

  • staticsplit
    staticsplit Posts: 538 Member
    edited July 2019
    I loosely log but I'm trying to maintain. This last week especially I was eating out, travelling--kept up my exercise but wasn't really trying to control my intake. I do naturally follow IF because I'm usually not hungry before noon and I try not to eat much after 9 pm, but I'm not strict with it.

    Looking at the last week - my lowest day was around 1900 and my highest day was 2800. Average was 2,200, which is around my TDEE. Weight bounced around a bit but was between 153.6 and 155. My maintenance is 150-155. I'm 6 ft tall and do weight lifting, yoga, running, and walking.
  • oat_bran
    oat_bran Posts: 370 Member
    staticsplit wrote: »
    Looking at the last week - my lowest day was around 1900 and my highest day was 2800. Average was 2,200, which is around my TDEE. Weight bounced around a bit but was between 153.6 and 155. My maintenance is 150-155. I'm 6 ft tall and do weight lifting, yoga, running, and walking.

    Wow this is really interesting! 1900-2800 seems like a big fluctuation! I wonder what your actual TDEE was on your highest and lowest day to see by how much you go over or under your TDEE on a given day. I know there's no way to tell for sure though. I wear a fitbit (which I know is pretty accurate after tracking my weight on a spreadsheet for a long time) so I know that my TDEE fluctuations are huge sometimes, but I've been controlling my intake for years and there's no way to tell how I would eat if I didn't at this point in relation to my TDEE.

  • staticsplit
    staticsplit Posts: 538 Member
    edited July 2019
    oat_bran wrote: »
    staticsplit wrote: »
    Looking at the last week - my lowest day was around 1900 and my highest day was 2800. Average was 2,200, which is around my TDEE. Weight bounced around a bit but was between 153.6 and 155. My maintenance is 150-155. I'm 6 ft tall and do weight lifting, yoga, running, and walking.

    Wow this is really interesting! 1900-2800 seems like a big fluctuation! I wonder what your actual TDEE was on your highest and lowest day to see by how much you go over or under your TDEE on a given day. I know there's no way to tell for sure though. I wear a fitbit (which I know is pretty accurate after tracking my weight on a spreadsheet for a long time) so I know that my TDEE fluctuations are huge sometimes, but I've been controlling my intake for years and there's no way to tell how I would eat if I didn't at this point in relation to my TDEE.

    According to my fitbit:

    The 2800 day my TDEE was 3100 (I walked 25k steps). I went out for Thai food for dinner so I might have actually eaten more than 2800, it's a semi-educated guess.

    The 1900 day one had my TDEE also at 1950 (only walked 5k). So I was more or less following it by listening to my hunger cues.
  • kenyonhaff
    kenyonhaff Posts: 1,377 Member
    I log at least one meal and my snacks during a day. I think it helps mentally to "check in" and consider how this food fits in my overall plan. I admit it isn't as good as loggin everything in, but I seem to be doing ok so I'm just going with it.
  • paperpudding
    paperpudding Posts: 9,272 Member
    .and I imagine that they are not eating the equivalent of their TDEE every singly day and that some day they go over their TDEE and some day it's less. And that maybe there are actually small fluctuations in their weight. And I've been really curious to know by how much?

    I have no idea of how much - but, yes, of course most people eat over their TDEE some days and some days less and they have small fluctuations in their weight.

    That would surely apply to just about everyone in maitenance, ( maitenance just meaning stable weight) whether they ever calorie counted or not.
    Everyone's weight has small fluctuations and hardly anybody eats exact same amount every day.
  • hroderick
    hroderick Posts: 756 Member
    I'm hoping to go natural, but it hasn't been working out so I'm back to counting. I think finally stop falling back into old habits and psych faults I will be more successful. Maybe logging must just become my permanent replacement habit for some of the bad ones. Deeply learning about mindful eating and habit change is helping. I'm just not there yet.
  • kshama2001
    kshama2001 Posts: 28,052 Member
    oat_bran wrote: »
    I've been on and off trying to lose weight for so long that I've forgotten what it's like to not count calories and simply rely on hunger cues to maintain your weight. I have lots of friends who are maintaining a healthy weight naturally and some of them don't even know what calories really are and I've been really curious to imagine what their day-to-day CICO is like. I've been observing these people's eating habits and I imagine that they are not eating the equivalent of their TDEE every singly day and that some day they go over their TDEE and some day it's less. And that maybe there are actually small fluctuations in their weight. And I've been really curious to know by how much? Like, it would be so interesting to see a spreadsheet of a day-to-day CICO of someone who is maintaining their weight without counting calories or trying to control their intake consciously in any way. The problem with that is though that as soon as you start monitoring someone's intake, they will become conscious of it and it'll probably effect the results...

    If you've maintained naturally in the past or have partners/roommates/family members who do, what are your estimates of their day-to-day CICO ?

    I'm confused about the bolded. You can get an approximation of the CI of someone who is sedentary and maintaining by plugging their stats into MFP here https://www.myfitnesspal.com/account/change_goals_guided and selecting Maintain my current weight.

    But I don't know how this would help you in any way?

    My Mom more or less maintains a healthy weight naturally without counting calories. (She is so active that when she forgets/doesn't have time to eat she struggles to stay above Underweight.) Her weight goes up and down @ 5 #. Some days she does indeed eat more, and some days less.
  • sardelsa
    sardelsa Posts: 9,812 Member
    I maintained within a 5-10lb range for many years (from 16-28 years old) without counting calories. To be honest I have no idea what calorie intake was but it definitely fluctuated day to day, week to week based on hunger levels and there were times of small gain and if my clothes got too tight I'd cut a snack out or something and lose a bit to get back toy normal. Maybe 2300-2700 at the time? I was very active but not consistent with regular exercise.
  • lynn_glenmont
    lynn_glenmont Posts: 10,089 Member
    I think it would vary a lot from person to person how much they fluctuate their CI (which really seems to be what your asking about, even though you saying CICO) when maintaining "naturally." Some people probably "naturally" like a routine, while others "naturally" have a mix of big eating days, low eating days, and maintenance days.

    I have been logging about five years past the point where I switched from a "lose-it-or-die" mentality to a "you-don't-have-to-lose-more-but-for-heaven's-sake-don't-regain" mindset. Since I'm logging, I'm not exactly maintaining "naturally," but I approach each day with a great deal of flexibility and am fine with going over on the weekends or for special events. Oddly, my lowest days are often weekend days when I catch up on sleep and catch up on errands -- I often end up eating in a fairly narrow IF-ish pattern, and don't take in that many calories.

    Anyway, with a maintenance level of 2370, my "natural-ish" variation is anywhere from around 1300 kcal to 3500 kcal per day (if I'm eating less than 1300 kcal, it almost certainly means I'm sick and not risking eating things I can't keep down; eating more than 3500 kcal for me would pretty much take a deliberate effort to try to consume energy-dense foods all day to the point of at least mild discomfort). In a typical week, however, I'd likely be eating somewhere between 1700 and 2200 four to five days a week, and anywhere from 2300 to 2800 two or three days a week.

  • oat_bran
    oat_bran Posts: 370 Member
    WinoGelato wrote: »
    Many people find it necessary, or at least helpful, to continue to log calories in order to successfully maintain. These boards are filled with countless folks who thought that once they hit their weight loss goal they would switch to “naturally maintaining weight relying on hunger cues” only to find that the weight creeps back on and they find themselves in the position of having to lose again.

    Perhaps that’s the reason you feel you’ve been on an endless weight loss journey? Maybe instead of trying to figure out how to maintain without tracking, accept that for at least a considerable time after hitting goal that you will continue to log and track just as diligently as you are now, only with a few hundred extra calories to play with.

    I wasn't asking for advice on how to maintain without tracking. Where did you get that from my post? Like I said, I am simply curious (because I am a curious person) how a person's daily intake can vary day to day and how it corresponds to their TDEE and in a way that they end up maintaining without doing it consciously. I am curious because human body is interesting to me and I am wondering how it regulates energy intake. That's it.

    Oh and I've been trying to lose weight unsuccessfully because I overeat, plain and simple (knowingly and while tracking), for reasons that are completely irrelevant to this thread.
  • oat_bran
    oat_bran Posts: 370 Member
    Tolstolobik wrote: »
    WinoGelato wrote:
    Just focus on your plan, not what other people do or can do “naturally”

    This^.

    Umm.. I wasn't asking for advice actually.
  • oat_bran
    oat_bran Posts: 370 Member
    kshama2001 wrote: »

    I'm confused about the bolded. You can get an approximation of the CI of someone who is sedentary and maintaining by plugging their stats into MFP here https://www.myfitnesspal.com/account/change_goals_guided and selecting Maintain my current weight.

    But I don't know how this would help you in any way?

    I went back to reread my post trying see where it may sounded like I was asking advice about maintaining and I didn't find anything. I'm not asking for advice. I'm not even trying to maintain right now. I am simply curious. And not about how much any given person needs to eat to maintain. This is easily done with any TDEE calculator. I am wondering what a person's day to day deficit/surplus could be, OK? Say 2300 in/2500 out one day, 2200 in/2100 out the next etc. That kind of stuff. And of course there is no way to know for sure! This is why I was asking for estimates. Again, out of pure curiosity about the human body.
  • staticsplit
    staticsplit Posts: 538 Member
    What I've found interesting about logging while maintaining is how good the body can be about balance. Like if one day was very carb heavy, the next day I fancy things with more protein or fat without realizing.
  • liz0269
    liz0269 Posts: 139 Member
    I never had a weight problem until I quit smoking seven years ago.
    In my 20s, I ate whatever I wanted. I know I drank 3-6 regular sodas per day, I drank a lot of coffee with creamer and sugar. I am estimating 500-800 calories just in beverages.
    I didn't eat breakfast but I would snack. Lunch sometimes was soup and sometimes a burger. I would guess 500-800 calories for those two meals.
    Overall I am guessing that I ate 1500-2500 calories a day. I am 5'7" and I weighed 115. After I had kids, I weighed 135.
    In my 40s, I ate paleo just before I quit smoking. Breakfast was eggs with butter - 250 calories. Lunch was usually either two hamburger patties or a can of chicken plus an avocado or a ton of almonds - easily 800 calories. Dinner was usually just as big as lunch. Overall 1800-2200 calories. I weighed 140.
    When I quit smoking I ate a lot more and packed on 60 pounds in less than a year. Ouch.
  • PAV8888
    PAV8888 Posts: 14,235 Member
    edited July 2019
    After a considerable effort to lose weight and a couple of years more or less maintaining, I've found that I actually *am* _aware_ as to whether I have eaten enough or not, and that my body also does regulate ittself a bit by prompting me to be more, or less active based on recent energy balance!

    That said... I am also, personally, extremely good at ignoring any and all such cues for a variety of reasons. Or forgetting what happened yesterday.

    A friend of mine is perfectly willing to put down his fork or spoon in the middle of delectable food consumption just because he is no longer hungry. I rely on logging instead....

    As to the variance it would be hard to measure for people who don't log

    Personally, nowadays, being ~30% over calories on one day (and depending on timing) usually means I start my next day with less desire to eat and perhaps more energy. I can't say that I feel a difference when I am 5% or 10% over :blush:
  • paperpudding
    paperpudding Posts: 9,272 Member
    Not sure if this is relevant as I have no idea what his CICO numbers are.

    But I have shared on here before that my father, now in his late 70's, has been slim all his life without ever in any way consciously trying to lose or maintain weight.

    But he does not have a sweet tooth, has drinks unsweetened, very rarely drinks soft drinks ( sodas) eats smallish meals, considers 1 or 2 squares of chocolate an after dinner treat ( not half the block, like I did ) walks places, catches the bus places, which means walking to the bus stop, spends most of day doing active thongs like bowls, ( and other sports when he was younger) gardening, DIY projects, does not own a computer or a mobile phone, rarely watches TV.

    Doesn't take a lot of imagination to realise this sort of lifestyle will lead to 'naturally' maintaining a healthy weight.
  • lemurcat2
    lemurcat2 Posts: 7,885 Member
    I'm not sure I understand the question, but my sister maintains "naturally," and she eats a pretty similar diet from day to day. She sometimes works out and sometimes not (probably 4-5x/per) so burns more on those days, she walks a lot naturally, so that varies from day to day some, and she occasionally goes out to eat or eats more on holidays. But I really don't think she has major swings in TDEE from week to week.

    She also IS conscious of what she's eating and, especially, of minor weight gain and will immediately cut back a little.
  • oat_bran
    oat_bran Posts: 370 Member
    PAV8888 wrote: »
    After a considerable effort to lose weight and a couple of years more or less maintaining, I've found that I actually *am* _aware_ as to whether I have eaten enough or not, and that my body also does regulate ittself a bit by prompting me to be more, or less active based on recent energy balance!

    That said... I am also, personally, extremely good at ignoring any and all such cues for a variety of reasons. Or forgetting what happened yesterday.

    A friend of mine is perfectly willing to put down his fork or spoon in the middle of delectable food consumption just because he is no longer hungry. I rely on logging instead....

    As to the variance it would be hard to measure for people who don't log

    Personally, nowadays, being ~30% over calories on one day (and depending on timing) usually means I start my next day with less desire to eat and perhaps more energy. I can't say that I feel a difference when I am 5% or 10% over :blush:

    This is really interesting! Thanks for going in such detail. This is what I heard as well. People have told me, they simply feel less hungry if they ate more than usual one day and so they don't feel like eating as much the next day. Or that they crave an extra snack or a bigger dinner if they exercised.

    I am not good in terms of being able to tell how much to eat, but if I go over my TDEE by a lot (I can tell based on my fitbit), I really feel the need to move usually. I would need to go for a walk or a short run at least or I won't feel well.

    It's really interesting what you say about where you tend to feel that difference and how been those deficit/surplus flactuations can usually be. This is what I was curious about. The 5-10% difference,I imagine, is probably quite common. This probably evens out eventually in some people or leads to those weight flactuations a lot of people have depending on the season etc. Or in some cases leads to gradual weight gain until people realize it and gave to cut down on their calories consciously.
  • amusedmonkey
    amusedmonkey Posts: 10,330 Member
    edited July 2019
    When I first started dieting, I was weight stable (as far as I know. going by clothes). I was maintaining a higher weight, of course, but the same nuances apply. I remember simply writing down the food I ate daily for about a week without changing anything just to see how I usually eat and what can be changed. I used a scale to weigh my food because it was the easiest way to record it. I wasn't tainted by calorie awareness yet, so it really did roughly represent how I ate. After about a week, I started looking for an app that would help me calculate calories, and out of curiosity, I logged all the foods I had written down. There was a variation of about 700 calories in my intake between the highest and the lowest day. My activity was roughly the same (I didn't move much). My average was close to my expected maintenance, slightly lower. For me, personally, my activity is more affected by what else I do rather than by how much I eat.

    I don't think any weight stable person has the exact same caloric balance every day. There are higher and lower days, and there could be temporary trends towards deficit or surplus from time to time which causes micro fluctuations in their actual maintenance weight, but they generally average closer to their maintenance range calories, some have wild calorie fluctuations that average to a healthy maintenance, others only have minimal fluctuations.

    I don't think "eating to hunger" or "being mindful" are explicit strategies used by people who are naturally weight stable at a healthy weight unless they start getting uncomfortable with their weight. They're more like strategies we, fat people, use to mimic what those who are weight stable at a healthy weight do. Have you never seen a thin friend or family member indulge because the food is good? Or complain that they overate and now feel bloated? Many of these people aren't really mindful and don't govern themselves with hunger rules. They can be hungry but not feel like eating, they can eat beyond satiety (if they're physically capable, some aren't), they can eat hedonically, they can "forget" to eat or feel like it's a chore, they're basically like us - people who do what comes naturally to them. The only difference is that our current habits that come naturally to us promote a balance in the overweight or obese range, while their natural habits promote a balance in the healthy range.

    I still think observing them is interesting because it helps me mimic some of the things they do. It may never come naturally to me, but I have tools to make it sustainable. My ex, for example, was very thin. Sometimes I had to remind him to eat when at home, but he could eat a lot when we went out. I mimic that by eating less, when possible, if I have nothing special planned in order to indulge more when I have something special planned. Another friend just doesn't like to feel full. She doesn't mindfully think about her hunger and fullness, it's just that discomfort avoidance wins no matter how good a food is. I have to mimic that but mindfully noticing my fullness cues when appropriate (sometimes I eat over fullness and don't mind doing that if I planned for it or leave a meal a little bit hungry if I'm saving calories). It doesn't come naturally to me, but if being aware of my actions produces favorable results, then I'll take it.
  • sijomial
    sijomial Posts: 19,809 Member
    My son maintains at a healthy weight without considering calories or weighing himself - if that's what you mean by "natural" ?

    But neither he or myself could estimate his calories, in fact if you asked a cross section of people if he eats a lot of a little you would get a massive range of responses.

    If you worked with him (hard physical construction job) and saw him go through the entire working day on maybe a glass of milk and some PB on the way out of the door early in the morning and see him get through a day of construction work just on water you would assume he eats little. But if you went out for a meal with him when he's hungry (or Dad is paying!!) you would be astounded at how much food he can put away and think "it's not fair he eats so much and stays slim".

    He has a tendency to eat more on very high caloric output days (either work or exercise) but also is an opportunistic eater - if it's available he will eat. If it's a chore to prepare or get then he's not bothered. For example he would get home from work hungry but if there's nothing grab-and-go available he will just defer eating until the next meal time.
    His days of a massive intake are actually more likely on a non-working / non-exercise day when he has more time and opportunity, or someone to cook for him.

    For people who have struggled with their weight perhaps the things to take away are that some people don't need a regular eating pattern or structure, they can enjoy their food but aren't driven by it, can recognise hunger but aren't compelled to eat by it and probably the most generally useful lessons are that a physical job / high activity and exercise can make weight control far easier and you don't have to fuel high expenditure immediately.
  • AnnPT77
    AnnPT77 Posts: 34,163 Member
    oat_bran wrote: »
    kshama2001 wrote: »

    I'm confused about the bolded. You can get an approximation of the CI of someone who is sedentary and maintaining by plugging their stats into MFP here https://www.myfitnesspal.com/account/change_goals_guided and selecting Maintain my current weight.

    But I don't know how this would help you in any way?

    I went back to reread my post trying see where it may sounded like I was asking advice about maintaining and I didn't find anything. I'm not asking for advice. I'm not even trying to maintain right now. I am simply curious. And not about how much any given person needs to eat to maintain. This is easily done with any TDEE calculator. I am wondering what a person's day to day deficit/surplus could be, OK? Say 2300 in/2500 out one day, 2200 in/2100 out the next etc. That kind of stuff. And of course there is no way to know for sure! This is why I was asking for estimates. Again, out of pure curiosity about the human body.

    The bolded is not strictly true, at an individual level. The calculators tend to be close for most people, further off for a few. It's just a statistical estimate based on a small handful of variables, and reality is more nuanced.

    That aside, the one thing I'd add is that appears to me that my resting heart rate tends to be a few beats higher (as measured by my fitness tracker) on the day after a major overindulgence. I haven't done disciplined monitoring of this, but from casual observation, it seems to be so. I'm not talking a huge difference, just maybe 3-5bpm, even with a large calorie difference (1000+). I suppose I could start tracking RHR as a function of the previous day's calorie level, and see if it holds up to closer scrutiny. ;)
  • PAV8888
    PAV8888 Posts: 14,235 Member
    edited July 2019
    AnnPT77 wrote: »
    oat_bran wrote: »
    kshama2001 wrote: »

    I'm confused about the bolded. You can get an approximation of the CI of someone who is sedentary and maintaining by plugging their stats into MFP here https://www.myfitnesspal.com/account/change_goals_guided and selecting Maintain my current weight.

    But I don't know how this would help you in any way?

    I went back to reread my post trying see where it may sounded like I was asking advice about maintaining and I didn't find anything. I'm not asking for advice. I'm not even trying to maintain right now. I am simply curious. And not about how much any given person needs to eat to maintain. This is easily done with any TDEE calculator. I am wondering what a person's day to day deficit/surplus could be, OK? Say 2300 in/2500 out one day, 2200 in/2100 out the next etc. That kind of stuff. And of course there is no way to know for sure! This is why I was asking for estimates. Again, out of pure curiosity about the human body.

    The bolded is not strictly true, at an individual level. The calculators tend to be close for most people, further off for a few. It's just a statistical estimate based on a small handful of variables, and reality is more nuanced.

    That aside, the one thing I'd add is that appears to me that my resting heart rate tends to be a few beats higher (as measured by my fitness tracker) on the day after a major overindulgence. I haven't done disciplined monitoring of this, but from casual observation, it seems to be so. I'm not talking a huge difference, just maybe 3-5bpm, even with a large calorie difference (1000+). I suppose I could start tracking RHR as a function of the previous day's calorie level, and see if it holds up to closer scrutiny. ;)

    I will concur that usually with deficit or overage, especially persistent, my Fitbit resting HR seems to track.

    In fact I will say that if I'm averaging below ~63 for resting there will eventually exist trendweight downward movement and, almost invariably, if I'm averaging above ~67 there will be some upward movement. In between it's more of a muddle even for me.

    Yesterday I had an unexpected Canada Day fireworks extra dinner... so I ended up a full 1200 Cal above where I planned to be (~37.5% overage). Fitbit resting HR, checked per Ann's prompting, is up 2 to 64!!!

    Can't say that the wine and ekmek calories are working an extra satiety miracle today even though I do feel "perky"!!!! 🤣😝
  • AnnPT77
    AnnPT77 Posts: 34,163 Member
    Forgot to mention another feature of over-maintenance overeating now: More and bigger hot flashes!

    I don't remember this happening on extra-big eating days when I was obese. (And I'd already been in menopause for over a decade by then . . . but that might be just a memory problem :lol::lol::lol: ).

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