Cardio vs no cardio

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  • Phirrgus
    Phirrgus Posts: 1,894 Member
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    J72FIT wrote: »
    Weight loss comes down to energy balance.

    Strength train for your muscles and bones.
    Do cardio for your heart and lungs.
    Manage your intake to ensure you are in negative energy balance.
    And get plenty of sleep...
    I don't see the need to do anything but this...
    joey32411 wrote: »
    J72FIT wrote: »
    Weight loss comes down to energy balance.

    Strength train for your muscles and bones.
    Do cardio for your heart and lungs.
    Manage your intake to ensure you are in negative energy balance...

    Sometimes the simplest answer, like above, is the best answer(at least in my opinion). And there's no one way to do strength training or cardio, and you can do both at the same time(rowing, weighted walking, yoga, HIIT as just a few examples - my personal favourite is VR boxing or playing Beat Saber ;) ). Do whatever activity makes you feel good and that you'll stick with and don't stress the minutiae of it. That's always been my philosophy.

    And this.

    And holy *kitten* it works! B)
  • Phirrgus
    Phirrgus Posts: 1,894 Member
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    AnnPT77 wrote: »
    maureenseel1984 wrote: »
    Also same to your last sentiment. I was my thinnest in high school, when I (unintentionally) ate nothing but crap, but not very much of it. I was active and went to the gym almost every day, and if someone didn't know my diet, would assume I was super healthy. Even though that day I probably just ate Pop-Tarts and fast food for lunch, skipping dinner because I was too busy.

    This is also where things like "calories in vs calories out" gets to be so dangerous.
    That mentality can be quite disordered and also doesn't take into account individual metabolic variables. No mathematical equation can accurately tell you how many calories your body really needs...maybe a rough estimate to go by-but I certainly don't see it as a hard and fast rule.
    And if it really is calories in vs calories out, maybe I should just eat minuscule amounts of the foods I like (cheeseburgers, donuts, chips) and forget nutrition all together...(note sarcasm here, folks-not actually suggesting this).

    My approach:
    Everything in moderation, including moderation from time to time.
    Exercise because it is good for you and because you enjoy it. Not as a form of punishment or a way to try to change yourself to fit some mold that honestly...is VERY difficult to achieve without becoming restrictive or obsessive.

    I feel like your personal and professional experience may be coloring your view of CICO and calorie counting.

    To me, CICO is a simple equation that describes the basic physics around weight management, that's all, and it makes calorie counting a useful, straightforward tool, for me. The CICO equation doesn't explain everything about self-image, psychology, satiation, nutrition, exercise, medical conditions or other factors that are part of the whole health picture, and that make applying calorie counting "simple but not always easy".

    I suspect your profession involves getting to know a disproportionate number of people who have more difficult issues around food and eating, be they medical conditions (such as diabetes), physical issues (such as movement limitations), or psychological challenges (such as EDs, or a tendency to use food for soothing or reward). All of those are certainly potential complications to practical application of calorie counting as a weight loss method.
    maureenseel1984 wrote: »
    Maybe if we stopped caring SO MUCH about how our bodies look and cared more about HEALTH...
    People only get discouraged because we all feel like we have to live up to these ridiculous standards of what health should LOOK like.     Washboard abs, low BF%, thigh gaps, bikini bridges, bubble butts, runner's calves, etc. It's all just so stupid.
    Things like "skinny fat" and "chubby" and "not toned"...really doesn't help.
    At my thinnest and "most fit" I was also my least healthy...living off maybe 5 saltines and a salad a day...while running 5 miles and obsessing over every morsel I ate.
    So. Very. Stupid.

    We all feel like that? No. No, we don't.

    Quoted and bolded for emphasis. There's nothing wrong with shooting for a personal gold standard. Heck, most of us wouldn't be able to set a clear cut goal if we didn't have a standard to shoot for in the first place.
  • maureenseel1984
    maureenseel1984 Posts: 397 Member
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    NorthCascades wrote: »
    maureenseel1984 wrote: »
    I'm not sure you really understand what CICO is...

    It's a concept that is relative to energy balance. It is not counting calories, 1200 calories per day, or whatever else. It is also completely separate from nutrition (which obviously is important)... so your sarcastic comment about cheeseburgers isn't really applicable as CICO does not negate nutrition, they are separate things.

    CICO absolutely does take into account metabolic variables - those things fall under the umbrella that is CO. CICO often times gets oversimplified, but that's a problem with the assumptions people make applying the concept of CICO, not actually with CICO.

    And you're right - no formula can guarantee an accurate calorie goal. But they can and do offer a good place to start. It's up to the individual to adjust based on their specific circumstances, experiences, etc.

    I also think you're willfully misunderstanding or misinterpreting what I am saying.
    Also do not make assumptions about what I do and do not understand. I am a registered dietitian. :) I have a little more of a scientific and professional background than you give me credit for.

    Woah. That's scary!

    Scary that there's more to health and wellness than counting calories?
  • maureenseel1984
    maureenseel1984 Posts: 397 Member
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    I suspect your profession involves getting to know a disproportionate number of people who have more difficult issues around food and eating, be they medical conditions (such as diabetes), physical issues (such as movement limitations), or psychological challenges (such as EDs, or a tendency to use food for soothing or reward). All of those are certainly potential complications to practical application of calorie counting as a weight loss method.

    Now here you actually have a valid point...as I do see people who are very ill often, or also extremely overweight, on tube feedings or IV nutrition...or who do have eating disorders, diabetes, etc.

    So my view is likely different than the average person trying to lose weight, as I've seen where CICO often does not work (as far as a practice-not a concept...ex: calorie counting).

    I have also worked with people who adhere to this method and still struggle with weight loss due to a variety of factors such as hypothyroidism, Prader Willi syndrome, disordered eating such as binge eating, chronic/"yo-yo" dieting that ends up affecting metabolic efficacy.

    As I've stated previously-CICO is a simple concept-but not always so simple in application.



  • jjpptt2
    jjpptt2 Posts: 5,650 Member
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    maureenseel1984 wrote: »
    As I've stated previously-CICO is a simple concept-but not always so simple in application.

    Now THAT I can agree with.
  • Phirrgus
    Phirrgus Posts: 1,894 Member
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    CICO isn't a "concept" though. It's an equation at it's purest level. I personally think folks would struggle less with it if it were simply referred to as energy in/energy out. 2300 units of potential energy in<2400 units of energy expended = weight loss for the vast majority of the population.
  • maureenseel1984
    maureenseel1984 Posts: 397 Member
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    To the contrary, calorie counting, when done right, can actually help prevent disordered eating, because it tells you not only how many calories you need to eat to lose weight, but how many you should eat to do it healthily. I know it has helped me not only create a deficit for weight loss, but also make sure I am eating enough to properly fuel my body during weight loss. Having been here a while, I don't see a ton of posts about people freaking out about how many calories something has. What I have seen a ton of is people who have just started "eating healthy" realize that when they actuslly start counting their calories, that they are not eating enough calories. There are as many posts here about people asking how to eat more calories than less.

    And while body image is certainly an issue, and there are some here who may be trying to achieve an unrealistic standard, it's a misrepresentation of this community to say it is what most are trying to achieve. The people here have a wide range of goals, the majority which are just trying to get to a healthy weight. A lot of the users here are in the 50+ age range. I am skeptical that they are being heavily influenced by Kylie Jenner's Instagram feed.

    Agree 100% with the second part of this...many in the fitness community in general (not just here on MFP) are trying so hard to fight genetics, aging, their own natural body type, etc to achieve something that's likely not only difficult to achieve but perhaps impossible.

    It could potentially help some to count calories-but for most with eating disorders it's not advised...primarily because of the fact that the food is only a symptom of a much deeper-rooted issue. When those with eating disorders fixate on food (be it binge-eating, restricting, counting calories, purging, etc) it's to distract themselves from other problems (depression, anxiety, etc).
    Granted, some with eating disorders do have to track calories to ensure they're eating enough (such as the Minnie Maud method), but that's kind of an older school of thought for many providers these days.

  • lemurcat2
    lemurcat2 Posts: 7,885 Member
    edited July 2019
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    maureenseel1984 wrote: »
    This seems reasonable, although exercising to meet goals (running a marathon or doing a tri) was something I found valuable in pushing myself, even at times when it meant doing things not in the moment enjoyable. Not everyone has a tendency to become restrictive or obsessive.

    PS: insinuating that it's "scary" that I'm a dietitian because my professional experience and opinions differ from yours? Only makes you look closed minded.

    You start by quoting me (see nestled quotes).

    However, what you quote does not say the bolded stuff that you are apparently attributing to me, and such an insinuation cannot be found in my post elsewhere either. I believe that there is no good faith way to claim that I "insinuated" what you are claiming I did. Please explain why you have attributed to me something I did not say. I find it bothersome.
  • maureenseel1984
    maureenseel1984 Posts: 397 Member
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    lemurcat2 wrote: »
    maureenseel1984 wrote: »
    This seems reasonable, although exercising to meet goals (running a marathon or doing a tri) was something I found valuable in pushing myself, even at times when it meant doing things not in the moment enjoyable. Not everyone has a tendency to become restrictive or obsessive.

    I didn't say it couldn't be done-but for many calorie counting does become obsessive (I mean just peruse the forums for a while and you'll find plenty of folks who are worried over how many calories this yogurt has versus the other...or if they should log a few grapes they ate).
    And I agree-there's a difference between pushing yourself toward a goal (ex: finishing a marathon, lifting a certain amount, etc) but that is very different goal than trying to change the way our body looks in order to reach a standard that may very well be impossible to achieve. That is the point I've been trying to get at (but many seem to be ignoring that part).

    A lot (not all) but a lot of folks are on here trying to lose weight in order to achieve this..."perfect" or "dream" body. 1.) it will get frustrating when they adhere to CICO and yet still do not achieve it.
    2.) it disregards the idea that our bodies have a sort of set-point weight range and we also have different body types. Some more muscular, some carry more fat some are more naturally lean, etc.

    CICO is a concept that our bodies burn a certain amount of energy and when we eat less than we burn we lose weight. Someone else made the point that their dad lost a lot of weight when they ate at a surplus-because they had cancer.

    That is exactly my point. An example where CICO is a simple concept but doesn't work for everybody. Again-the point I was trying to make is many folks on this thread have just said "it's as simple as calories in calories out" but...as you can see, for many it is NOT that simple.

    PS: insinuating that it's "scary" that I'm a dietitian because my professional experience and opinions differ from yours? Only makes you look closed minded.

    The quoted bit is from me.

    However, it does not say the bolded stuff that you are apparently attributing to me and there is no good faith way to claim that it "insinuates" what you are claiming it does. Please explain why you have attributed to me something I did not say. I find it bothersome.

    It was a general "PS"...not directed at you, but I do apologize for the misunderstanding.
  • lemurcat2
    lemurcat2 Posts: 7,885 Member
    edited July 2019
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    Now, as for where you actually responded to what I wrote (although only a small part of it).
    maureenseel1984 wrote: »
    This seems reasonable, although exercising to meet goals (running a marathon or doing a tri) was something I found valuable in pushing myself, even at times when it meant doing things not in the moment enjoyable. Not everyone has a tendency to become restrictive or obsessive.

    I didn't say it couldn't be done-but for many calorie counting does become obsessive (I mean just peruse the forums for a while and you'll find plenty of folks who are worried over how many calories this yogurt has versus the other...or if they should log a few grapes they ate).

    First, the part you quoted is about exercise, not calorie counting.

    Second, I think DIETING (not calorie counting specifically) or other ideas about eating can become obsessive for some. Some of the most obsessive think calorie counting is bad but worry excessively about whether a particular food is "clean" or eat extremely restrictive diets and worry about situations where they might have to eat imperfectly. So blaming calorie counting specifically seems off-base.

    Third, I suspect that some of what you are reading as obsessive really isn't. Once one starts counting cals, it may make perfect sense to pick one lower cal (2%) yogurt with more protein (greek) over another with less protein and higher cals if they are equally satisfying to you anyway. It's just becoming more observant about calories, not necessarily (or usually) "worry." Similarly, logging everything can be a helpful process at first, not some sign of disorder. For me (and I don't even log normally now), it was helpful and educational to weigh and log everything I ate for a while, and fun too. It certainly did not mean I freaked if I went to a restaurant and could not, or worried about eating some grapes. (That I logged something did not mean I thought it was bad to eat it, of course, and actually starting to log made me realize I was undereating and being too restrictive and so I started adding back in some olive oil and cheese and so on.)
    And I agree-there's a difference between pushing yourself toward a goal (ex: finishing a marathon, lifting a certain amount, etc) but that is very different goal than trying to change the way our body looks in order to reach a standard that may very well be impossible to achieve. That is the point I've been trying to get at (but many seem to be ignoring that part).

    Perhaps because we agreed with that part, and just disagreed with your assumption that this is the main motivator for most of us or that we are trying to do that.
    A lot (not all) but a lot of folks are on here trying to lose weight in order to achieve this..."perfect" or "dream" body. 1.) it will get frustrating when they adhere to CICO and yet still do not achieve it.
    2.) it disregards the idea that our bodies have a sort of set-point weight range and we also have different body types. Some more muscular, some carry more fat some are more naturally lean, etc.

    I actually find that more on MFP are focused on health, although some are really focused on strength goals or other athletic ones. I don't find a lot focused on a "dream body," but granted I ignore threads about how to get Kim Kardasian's butt or whatever since I find that sort of conversation uninteresting and outside my understanding. Usually those are younger people, of course. And more often than not they are NOT the people doing CICO, but those who believe that specific foods cause "belly fat" or the loss of "belly fat" or what not.

    I think "set point" is problematic as normally used, since it suggests that you can't necessarily get to a healthy weight or lose weight and that's not true, as clearly our population has become way more overweight than in the past -- that's not set point. I do agree that body types are going to dictate how we look to some extent and you can only do so much.

    For me, realizing I had MORE control over my amount of fat or my body than I had previously thought (although clearly it's not going to make me an hourglass when I have naturally narrow hips and am shortwaisted) made me feel overall better about myself and my body, more empowered, than when I was a teen or early 20s and thought my body just was what it was and disliked parts of it. Focusing on things like eating healthfully (and calorie appropriate) and exercising for goals as well as fun made me feel good about my body and what it can do, and calorie counting was part of that, not a hindrance. (Also being older and more mature helped too.)
    CICO is a concept that our bodies burn a certain amount of energy and when we eat less than we burn we lose weight. Someone else made the point that their dad lost a lot of weight when they ate at a surplus-because they had cancer.

    Yes, no one denies that some illnesses make it difficult to digest food properly and you lose weight. I've also known people with cancer who lost because they could not keep food down, and their medical team was very focused on increasing cals in the ways they could.

    I still think your suggestion that if one understands and focuses on CICO that one will ignore other things like health and nutrition or instantly become obsessive (when for many it helps us approach weight loss more rationally and without weird superstitious about needing to follow a specific diet or or specific foods or take ACV or what not) is inaccurate or at least overblown.
  • lemurcat2
    lemurcat2 Posts: 7,885 Member
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    maureenseel1984 wrote: »
    lemurcat2 wrote: »
    maureenseel1984 wrote: »
    This seems reasonable, although exercising to meet goals (running a marathon or doing a tri) was something I found valuable in pushing myself, even at times when it meant doing things not in the moment enjoyable. Not everyone has a tendency to become restrictive or obsessive.

    I didn't say it couldn't be done-but for many calorie counting does become obsessive (I mean just peruse the forums for a while and you'll find plenty of folks who are worried over how many calories this yogurt has versus the other...or if they should log a few grapes they ate).
    And I agree-there's a difference between pushing yourself toward a goal (ex: finishing a marathon, lifting a certain amount, etc) but that is very different goal than trying to change the way our body looks in order to reach a standard that may very well be impossible to achieve. That is the point I've been trying to get at (but many seem to be ignoring that part).

    A lot (not all) but a lot of folks are on here trying to lose weight in order to achieve this..."perfect" or "dream" body. 1.) it will get frustrating when they adhere to CICO and yet still do not achieve it.
    2.) it disregards the idea that our bodies have a sort of set-point weight range and we also have different body types. Some more muscular, some carry more fat some are more naturally lean, etc.

    CICO is a concept that our bodies burn a certain amount of energy and when we eat less than we burn we lose weight. Someone else made the point that their dad lost a lot of weight when they ate at a surplus-because they had cancer.

    That is exactly my point. An example where CICO is a simple concept but doesn't work for everybody. Again-the point I was trying to make is many folks on this thread have just said "it's as simple as calories in calories out" but...as you can see, for many it is NOT that simple.

    PS: insinuating that it's "scary" that I'm a dietitian because my professional experience and opinions differ from yours? Only makes you look closed minded.

    The quoted bit is from me.

    However, it does not say the bolded stuff that you are apparently attributing to me and there is no good faith way to claim that it "insinuates" what you are claiming it does. Please explain why you have attributed to me something I did not say. I find it bothersome.

    It was a general "PS"...not directed at you, but I do apologize for the misunderstanding.

    You should be aware that if you quote someone and respond to that quote what you say is going to appear to everyone to be responsive to the person you are quoting. If you mean to move away from that, it's better form to say so specifically ("on other matters" or "speaking more generally to the board").

    But thanks for apologizing.

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