Insulin sensitivity?

chris_in_cal

Without eating anything, exercise first thing on an empty stomach: according to https://physiology.org/doi/full/10.1152/ajpendo.00163.2018 I posted this in 'food' but it seems a better fit here.

To conclude, eating breakfast (vs. fasting) before exercise increases postexercise plasma glucose disposal rates, but this is offset by increases in appearance rates of (mainly) orally ingested glucose, a result that does not appear to be explained by a greater intestinal damage response to the exercise. We showed that preexercise breakfast consumption lowers insulinema at meals that are consumed after exercise, providing new evidence that the second meal effect is maintained even when exercise is performed between eating occasions.

I have never done this. I struggle to get up and exercise, it is easier for me in the afternoon. I may try it as I get closer to my goal weight and the extra pounds become more stubborn. This might be a good way of mixing it up, and improving my blood markers.

mmapags

There were also qualifiers attached to this study. It was a small participant size and broader study is indicated.

That being said, there are a couple things you can do that are already indicated to increase insulin sensitivity. They include eating low carb, intermittent fasting and vigorous exercise along with weight loss.

chris_in_cal

Yes, small study. Interesting that these researchers had earlier finding on exercise and this was a follow-up to test some of their earlier findings. They might be worth following.

You wrote IF and exercise, but that is kind of what they concluded too...though they are more targeted. Do you find their results interesting, valuable?

mmapags

I find thier results indicative of a need for more broad based study before drawing any conclusions.

chris_in_cal

Do you have experience exercising in the morning before you have eaten anything?
(I don't have much, or any)

Gisel2015

chris_in_cal wrote: »

Do you have experience exercising in the morning before you have eaten anything?
(I don't have much, or any)

I had and it was not a good one; I almost passed out, and it was only a walk without much exertion.

I fast between 7:30PM to 8AM the following day so after more than 12 hrs between meals (and I am not a big eater), I don't have enough reserves in my body to deal with cardio or with any physical activity that requires strength and/or concentration. I take Yoga and Pilates classes in the morning, and I go to the gym in the afternoon.

On the other hand, I can't eat a large breakfast before exercising either, but I do need to have some food with a balance of protein, carbs and fats to keep me going.

I didn't read the article that you posted because based on the title, it doesn't matter what the findings are; they will not work for me.

mmapags

I have worked out with weight training in a fasted state for extended periods. I am not currently. Personally, I noticed little difference in my workouts. Some do. It varies by individual.

I did not have a BG problem and was not looking to increase insulin sensitivity. I practice IF for preference and calorie control. I've shifted my eating window earlier since I've retired to Mexico to conform to the typical eating schedule here. The have desayuno (breakfast) mid morning, comida, the primary meal of the day, mid to late afternoon. They may have a small meal, cena, at 8 or 9 in the evening. The also have coffee and pan dulce (a sweet bread or pastry) 1st thing in the morning.

I skip the early food and the cena and have a mid morning meal and a late afternoon one. That is it for the day. 2 good size satisfying (for me) meals. This also keeps us on the local schedule for social events. If you go into a restaurant here between 5 and 7, you can be the only customer in the place. But at 4 or 8, there will be lots of people.

chris_in_cal

mmapags wrote: »

That is it for the day. 2 good size satisfying (for me) meals. ... if you go into a restaurant here between 5 and 7, you can be the only customer in the place.

This what I have been doing the last few months while losing weight. Before I read of IF I just decided to skip dinner. Still a working stiff, so I have breakfast and lunch.

I just returned from Vacation in Spain, sure enough, I couldn't really be served anything before 8:00 pm.


With working it seems I might need to get up :90+ minutes earlier than I do now. Like the other poster it feels like a clinical emergency to even consider getting up early, no food or coffee, and exercise. But after all this posting, I guess I'll have to try.

I wonder if your 'fasting state' exercise were aerobic in nature if your subjective experience would be different.

aokoye

chris_in_cal wrote: »

Do you have experience exercising in the morning before you have eaten anything?
(I don't have much, or any)

I have loads of experience exercising early in the morning (think 5am) in a fasted state. That said, I have no data to speak of. Even if we go with the fact that any of my experiences with regards to this are firmly in the anacadata category*, I also have never targeted insulin sensitivity, have never tested my blood sugar at home (no need), etc. If you're worried about having a hard time losing weight, you need to tighten up your calorie counting and logging.

*I have been a data point in multiple studies, including those in the medical field

mmapags

chris_in_cal wrote: »

mmapags wrote: »

That is it for the day. 2 good size satisfying (for me) meals. ... if you go into a restaurant here between 5 and 7, you can be the only customer in the place.

This what I have been doing the last few months while losing weight. Before I read of IF I just decided to skip dinner. Still a working stiff, so I have breakfast and lunch.

I just returned from Vacation in Spain, sure enough, I couldn't really be served anything before 8:00 pm.


With working it seems I might need to get up :90+ minutes earlier than I do now. Like the other poster it feels like a clinical emergency to even consider getting up early, no food or coffee, and exercise. But after all this posting, I guess I'll have to try.

I wonder if your 'fasting state' exercise were aerobic in nature if your subjective experience would be different.

Well I walk briskly for about 25 minutes to the gym and the same back home and don't notice any impact. If it was higher intensity and longer duration I might struggle energy wise. But it wouldn't impact fat loss. That is driven by calorie deficit.

NorthCascades

chris_in_cal wrote: »

Do you have experience exercising in the morning before you have eaten anything?
(I don't have much, or any)

I hiked five hours today after nothing to eat but a latte. Had to meet a friend earlier than I like, and eating breakfast first would have meant getting up way too early. I exercise before eating pretty often, and it's always that type of story, wanting to get out on a trail or road more than I want to eat, or being limited by the clock and sleep.

Earlier in my life I didn't do this as often and ate more during exercise, but that's slowly changed. I don't know how much is from weight loss and how much from getting accustomed to it.

I don't know if that helps you. Two more factoids that may or may not mean anything: I learned that I was the same BMI as a coworker with T2D, which frightened me into as blood test, the doctor explained the results by saying I can have iced cream when I want to. I've always exercises a great deal, always things I enjoy.

chris_in_cal

mmapags wrote: »

But it wouldn't impact fat loss. That is driven by calorie deficit.

This is kind of the point of linking to the study. Their results are subtly different that this.

chris_in_cal

Okay, though I feel like I have good outcomes when I'm in a routine, I also am concerned about being in a rut and losing momentum.

I don't want to just throw in too much 'early A.M. empty stomach exercise' I'd like to dip my toe in.

Next week, following my rest day on Wednesday, I'm going to get up early (ugh) and do my workout plan for the day, then come back and have breakfast and go to work. I'll try and report back. Tips, to make it success, if not pleasant? Thanks

rheddmobile

My experience as a type 2 diabetic is that exercise before eating breakfast temporarily raises my BG due to stress hormones, sometimes by quite a lot. I also get dawn phenomenon, which is when blood glucose is elevated at waking due to stress hormones, so that’s not surprising. Typically my nighttime glucose is about 90, which is pretty much what a normal person’s would be, raising to 105 or so when I first get up. If I then exercise and postpone breakfast it continues to climb, once peaking at 140, which is very high for a fasting reading.

On the other hand, if instead of fasting I eat breakfast, it quickly drops to about 90 after eating. If at this point I exercise without fuel, it will quickly drop into hypoglycemic levels. What I do is eat an orange, then work out (or run), which uses the glucose from the orange. By the time I’m done with an hour or more of activity, my bg is down to fasting levels, and I can then eat a very large carby meal with no issues. The insulin sensitivity from a run will last for the rest of the day until I sleep again, while the insulin sensitivity from lifting heavy weights easily lasts 24 hours or more.

Diabetics vary a lot and have different responses to exercise and food, which is why it’s essential to test often and learn what your body is doing instead of basing your behavior on a study, which looks at the average of many different people, not at individual responses. I have friends who can’t lift weights without their blood sugar temporarily rising due to stress, and many diabetics have problems with sprints raising their levels for similar reasons. On the other hand, both of these things quickly lower my levels and I have to be careful not to go hypo. If you have a medical need to be concerned with insulin sensitivity you simply must test yourself, because no one else will react the same way you do.

chris_in_cal

rheddmobile wrote: »

Diabetics vary a lot and have different responses to exercise and food, which is why it’s essential to test often and learn what your body is doing

I think that is great advice.

So far my blood tests have not shown type 2 diabetes, but (I'm here on MFP) at 'overweight' BMI, middle-aged American, and both parents were given t2 diagnosis later in life, I'm thinking it is good to become more aware. Thanks for adding in your experience.

RunsWithBees

I’m middle aged and I go running (trail and pavement) first thing in the morning fasted all the time, at least 3-4 times per week (for the past 5+ years) although the reason I do this is because I find it uncomfortable to have anything sloshing around in my stomach when I exercise. I will usually not eat anything until noon or later and always have a big meal after my workout. I come from a family where type 2 diabetes runs rampant and when I was sedentary and obese my blood sugar was slowly but surely working it’s way up to prediabetic levels. Since reaching a healthy BMI my blood sugar has returned to normal and I have remained active, been in maintenance for 6 years now. This year my doctor checked my A1c just as a precaution and it was normal. I don’t know if there’s any added benefit to working out fasted but there certainly will be benefits from simply working out and losing weight so it seems like a win/win situation as long as you don’t go to extremes, you should probably ask your doctor just to be sure though.

AnnPT77

chris_in_cal wrote: »

Do you have experience exercising in the morning before you have eaten anything?
(I don't have much, or any)

I do. Caveat: I think results are very person-specific.

I am hypothyroid, so need to wait after taking my thryoid meds first thing in AM, for a defined time period, before eating (minimum 30 minutes). (I don't think hypothyroidism is in any way magical or damning; I mention it only because it accounts for my personal nutient timing.)

Most Novembers/Decembers, I do the Concept 2 Holiday Challenge: 200,000m on the rowing machine between US Thanksgiving and Christmas Eve. For me, it usually averages out to about 6-8K (or so) 6 days per week, 40 minutes-ish daily. I'm slow.)

In that context, - this is just me - but I find I can do up to about 2 x 2k with decent intensity before eating. After that, I hit a wall.

Truly, I think you need to run your own experiment. For me, I know for sure, if I try to push intensity much beyond 2 x 2K (at defined intensity), I'm toast. I need to eat. Then I can go on . . . con entusiasmo grande, no problema.

NorthCascades

chris_in_cal wrote: »

Okay, though I feel like I have good outcomes when I'm in a routine, I also am concerned about being in a rut and losing momentum.

I don't want to just throw in too much 'early A.M. empty stomach exercise' I'd like to dip my toe in.

Next week, following my rest day on Wednesday, I'm going to get up early (ugh) and do my workout plan for the day, then come back and have breakfast and go to work. I'll try and report back. Tips, to make it success, if not pleasant? Thanks

If you want to dip your toe in the water, can you do this on a weekend, and not have to get up early to do it?

amusedmonkey

I think it's best to focus on what is known to help insulin sensitivity for the vast majority of people with insulin issues: not having too much excess fat and being active. Sometimes focusing on too many details that may or may not be beneficial can create an unsustainable routine and interfere with focusing on what matters. The easier you make it for yourself to lose weight and be active, the more likely you are to continue doing it. Even if certain changes can potentially help, burning out and quitting helps less than settling into a comfortable routine.

rheddmobile wrote: »

My experience as a type 2 diabetic is that exercise before eating breakfast temporarily raises my BG due to stress hormones, sometimes by quite a lot. I also get dawn phenomenon, which is when blood glucose is elevated at waking due to stress hormones, so that’s not surprising. Typically my nighttime glucose is about 90, which is pretty much what a normal person’s would be, raising to 105 or so when I first get up. If I then exercise and postpone breakfast it continues to climb, once peaking at 140, which is very high for a fasting reading.

On the other hand, if instead of fasting I eat breakfast, it quickly drops to about 90 after eating. If at this point I exercise without fuel, it will quickly drop into hypoglycemic levels. What I do is eat an orange, then work out (or run), which uses the glucose from the orange. By the time I’m done with an hour or more of activity, my bg is down to fasting levels, and I can then eat a very large carby meal with no issues. The insulin sensitivity from a run will last for the rest of the day until I sleep again, while the insulin sensitivity from lifting heavy weights easily lasts 24 hours or more.

When I was nearly diabetic that was also my experience too. After I settled into non-diabetic range now after large weight loss and introduction of regular activity, the effect seems to have deminished. I don't test as often anymore, but the few times I did after exercising fasted I noticed an occasional small trend up, the more vigorous the exercise the more noticeable the change. My blood sugar is acutely affected by stress, including exercise stress, too. Not enough to take me out of the normal range now, but the swings used to be crazy back then. For some reason, exercising after at least a snack was less stressful, although, again, this seems to have diminished now and I feel no perceptible difference between exercising fasted or after eating in stress, energy, or hunger control for lighter or shorter exercise sessions.

rheddmobile wrote: »

Diabetics vary a lot and have different responses to exercise and food, which is why it’s essential to test often and learn what your body is doing instead of basing your behavior on a study, which looks at the average of many different people, not at individual responses. I have friends who can’t lift weights without their blood sugar temporarily rising due to stress, and many diabetics have problems with sprints raising their levels for similar reasons. On the other hand, both of these things quickly lower my levels and I have to be careful not to go hypo. If you have a medical need to be concerned with insulin sensitivity you simply must test yourself, because no one else will react the same way you do.

This is why small studies on diabetics are nothing more than "hmm, interesting", and large studies can show a clearer trend but tend to drown out the results of individuals who do not fit the trend. Self testing and observation is the best thing you can do as a diabetic.

chris_in_cal

NorthCascades wrote: »

can you do this on a weekend, and not have to get up early to do it?

Brilliant! But not tomorrow, it is my :90 minute run. I'll shoot for next Saturday...no alarm, some water, then exercise.

mmapags

chris_in_cal wrote: »

mmapags wrote: »

But it wouldn't impact fat loss. That is driven by calorie deficit.

This is kind of the point of linking to the study. Their results are subtly different that this.

Please point out where they address fat loss. After a quick read, they seem focused on the effect of fasted training on glucose. They briefly touch on substrate utilization but don't specifically tie it to increased fat loss.

There is nothing I saw that shows increased rates of fat loss at the same energy balance. Fat is the primary fuel substrate during exercise to begin with with carbs increasing in the mix as intensity increases.

If one is insulin resistant, improving insulin sensitivity could result in normalizing BG and possibly allow for easier fat loss. Small study though. 12 participants. Much more study needed to prove anything. If you want to do an n=1 to see how it works for you, no harm. You kind of hinted at it but is BG an issue for you?