Getting started with indoor rowing?
NorthCascades
Posts: 10,968 Member
It's been two months since my injury, my resting heart rate is up 20 bpm. Doctor says a lot of that is because healing is hard work, but I want to be able to do challenging and fun things when my ankles finally let me. I've been lifting 3x per week, and for the first time in my life, I used an indoor rowing machine today.
I would love to benefit from some good advice. I have the same google as everyone else, but there's a lot of misinformation on the internet, and it's hard to know whether you're getting good or bad info when you have no context.
We have "water rowers" at my gym, they use fans in circular water tanks, and tell you your power, it seems like a 3 second rolling average? I don't know how good the measurement is.
I can only use one leg 🤕, I need to keep pressure off the other ankle; this doesn't seem to be much hindrance. I found the machine a little awkward though, and wish there was more resistance. I did 20 minutes, mostly hovering around 110 to 120 w, which kept me in HZ2. I'd like to be able able to get some anaerobic in too, I'm hoping once I learn a little about form that might be possible.
So, any advice from the veterans would be very welcome, same with pointers to good reading material or videos.
Thanks! 🙂
I would love to benefit from some good advice. I have the same google as everyone else, but there's a lot of misinformation on the internet, and it's hard to know whether you're getting good or bad info when you have no context.
We have "water rowers" at my gym, they use fans in circular water tanks, and tell you your power, it seems like a 3 second rolling average? I don't know how good the measurement is.
I can only use one leg 🤕, I need to keep pressure off the other ankle; this doesn't seem to be much hindrance. I found the machine a little awkward though, and wish there was more resistance. I did 20 minutes, mostly hovering around 110 to 120 w, which kept me in HZ2. I'd like to be able able to get some anaerobic in too, I'm hoping once I learn a little about form that might be possible.
So, any advice from the veterans would be very welcome, same with pointers to good reading material or videos.
Thanks! 🙂
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Replies
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Although you are using a water rower the Concept2 website is a wealth of good information including technique videos.
Calling two experts for their input....
@AnnPT77
@MikePfirrman2 -
Don't recall much discussion of water rowers here, mainly Concept2 rowers.
The mechanics of rowing are the same but the feel & operation of the devices obviously differ. For example, no need to adjust resistance on a C2. If you want to work harder, you just pull harder.
I vaguely recall that there is a way to increase resistance on a water rower (which I read about when I was trying to decide between buying 1 vs a C2) but don't remember exactly how that is done now. I aasume such info is available on Google for the specific type of water rower that you are using.
However, if you are rowing only w/one leg, my guess is that you already are not rowing as efficiently as you could w/both legs and, so, I don't understand why you'd want to increase the resistance and put even greater pressure on the single leg you're using because you'd just even up rowing end up rowing even less efficiently if you did that.
Most of the work in rowing is done w/the legs and until you can use both, I suggest leaving well enough alone before messing w/the resistance level on your rower.
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The only way to add more resistance to the water tower is to fill it with more water, which is not really practical. Otherwise, you just have to pull harder.
But I agree with the above that I’m not sure single leg rowing is the best approach.1 -
With the Concept 2, and with 2 good legs, they don't recommend increasing the resistance very high. I think the general recommendation is about 6 of the scale of 10 so that you can get form right.0
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My lower back is sore this morning, which is rare for me. What are the chances this is related?1
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NorthCascades wrote: »My lower back is sore this morning, which is rare for me. What are the chances this is related?
Very good. The lower back and hip hinge will work muscles you're not accustomed to working (though I know from your job and mountain trails that you're in excellent shape).
I've been thinking about your question. The rower is actually one of the best machines for adaptive (disability) use. However, with that said, it's almost easier (or at least I would think) without an injured ankle in the way. I know some adaptive rowers -- war vets -- that are doing incredible times. Way better than I can!
But not wanting to put any ankle pressure on your injury, this is about the best video I could come up with. Your rear will slide to one side. I'd keep the DF low (drag factor) and also keep the rows shorter or in intervals. Get up, move around and don't sit too long at a time. If you get cockeyed on the rower, your rear will chafe. Happens to me all the time. I have one bad knee and I scoot to one side inadvertently all the time.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZhiDAxyzIr4
The rower really works ankle flexibility when you're ready with your ankle down the road.2 -
Good advice from Mike. I also share the general skepticism that this is a great plan, unless you truly have ambitions as an adaptive rower, single leg category. That said:
In terms of the back issue, yes, rowing can cause problems, for one of two reasons (1) muscles not used to it (so normal muscle soreness, which IME sometimes feels a little weird in the smaller muscles vs. the more common equivalent in the big ones), or (2) technique problems.
If it's sore muscles from reasonable technique, I'd expect the sore zone to be upper glutes and just above the pelvic bones in back. Higher than that (and possibly even if low), more likely technique.
Technique, specifically: One of the really common causes of back problems is doing the body swing part of the stroke ineffectively. Your spine does not bend/articulate to create power on the swing (or bend on the recovery either, for that matter).
At the catch, you want to be sitting with a naturally straight spine (the exact appearance of this differs by person; the point is no slumping or bending forward to reach for the catch). The hips are behind your body, upper body is swung forward from the hip joint, with the upper body in "your straight" position, looking out toward the horizon line, chest open (one of my coaches said to pretend there's a light on your chest that needs to point downriver to illuminate where you've been, another called it "show your beautiful necklace"). The woman in Mike's video doesn't describe this, but is doing it quite well (when she's not looking down to point at legs or feet or something).
I'm not going to describe the whole drive, but once you've done the leg push to nearly flat legs, the body swing comes from the hip joint (using primarily the big muscles), not from curling/uncurling your spine in any way. It's an imperfect analogy, but if you've ever seen one of those little plastic bird toys that perches on a glass, swings down and dunks its bill in the water, then swings back, it's that kind of inverted-pendulum-looking kind of motion, feeling like motion from the hip joint, with a firm core and straight back.
There are other things that can cause back problems, but that's probably the most common for people starting out. Use your core to stay upright, don't slump or try to coil/uncoil from the spine. Swing from the hips.
On the water rower, Azdak is right, the equivalent of the C2 damper (which is not resistance!) is indeed about the amount of water in the tank. I've only rowed 3-4 times on a water rower, for a few hundred meters at a time, but my impression is that within a reasonable fill range, the water rower tank fill, like the C2 damper, is not what determines the difficulty. It's having the technique and strength to get the water/flywheel moving. (I'm assuming strength is not the problem, given who I'm typing at). The faster the flywheel/water is moving, the harder the workout. I've never tried to get to Z4-5 one-legged, but it's super easy to do two-legged. So, try to work on your technique. If you know a rowing coach, ask for help/critique. The Concept 2 videos are also a good resource, even for the Water Rower.
Be careful. :flowerforyou:5 -
Happy owner of a WaterRower here. It has gotten an astounding amount of usage in its 6 year in residence.
Yes, the more water in the tank, the more resistance for rowing. However, it's quite impractical to change the water level, so it's more of a "one and done" thing. You fill it up once, and then revisit it in a few years (not months; years). As others have noted above, technique and strength is what gets the flywheel moving.
It is not difficult at all to pull a muscle on the WaterRower - especially back, but for me, also hips. It's really important to learn and utilize good form, even if it means going slower and easier for a long while until you really get used to it. Like, say, a month of practice, with shooting some video of yourself on your phone so you can see your form and compare it to what it should be. You'll probably be surprised how inept you look at first LOL And then one day it'll all come together and your form will be solid.
Doing it one-legged does not sound like a great idea, tbh.
The Concept2 videos are an excellent resource.
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I thought about what I said and was going to come back and be more specific. Ann already covered it! Thanks Ann! Yeah, back pain can be from using muscles you're not used to or rounding the spine (bad type). Think of a row like a deadlift. I find it helpful, just when my foot starts to raise on the footpad to do another stroke (drive). Her spine is straight (not rounded) on the video, which is how you want it. If you have any familiarity with deadlift form, for the same reasons you don't want to round a back on a deadlift, which creates "load" in the thoracic area of the spine, you don't want to start the leg drive with the spine rounded. It feels weird to say you want to sit up straight most of the row, but you do, which engages the abs and forces you to drive more from the hips/glutes. It feels entirely unnatural at first, but the more you get used to it, the more natural it feels.2
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Everything was already said by the time I got off the water, let alone by the time I looked at this thread
I would underscore that while rowing with one leg is totally doable given how common adaptive rowing is both indoor and out, I agree with Ann in that I don't know that it's especially practical in your situation. What does your trajectory look like in terms how when ankle will be stronger/more mobile/allowing you to get back to sport?
My other suggestion would be to take advantage of where you live. You live in an area with a lot of rowing clubs (thanks UW) including ones that have adaptive programs and probably teach people how to row on rowing machines around this time of year (though a quick look shows that there are still LTR programs on the water in your area of the NW). Don't be afraid to email and ask if you can get some instruction in how to row on an erg (rowing machine). Given the acute nature of your injury, I don't think you'd be considered an adaptive athlete, but I suspect it's worth working with someone who has experience in working with adaptive athletes.3 -
NorthCascades wrote: »My lower back is sore this morning, which is rare for me. What are the chances this is related?
You should not get lower back soreness, if you are rowing w/proper form.
Lower back soreness would suggest that you are improperly pulling more w/your lower back than pushing off w/your legs, which makes sense if you are only using 1 leg while rowing2 -
With the Concept 2, and with 2 good legs, they don't recommend increasing the resistance very high. I think the general recommendation is about 6 of the scale of 10 so that you can get form right.
If you are referring to the damper lever on the side of the fan, many people mistakenly believe that it it is used to adjust the resistance of the pull.
The damper is used to simulate the movement of a boat on the water NOT the resistance of the pull. The higher the damper setting the the greater the drag (the less it will "glide") and the more quickly you will have to pull again to keep the "boat" (fan) moving and vice versa. A higher setting would be for a hypothetically heavier and bigger boat and a lower setting for a lighter, smaller one.
Generally, a setting between 5-6 is recommended to simulated the movement of a single scull boat. I row 5km daily at a moderate pace and use a damper setting of 5.5.2 -
Thanks, everybody, for fantastic advice and information!
It sounds like my form was terrible. I guess that's to be expected, my first time with no idea what I'm doing. I was pushing off with my foot at the same time I was pulling with my arms, all as one motion. No wonder it felt awkward! @AnnPT77 your description was excellent, maybe better than a video. I can picture the sippy bird and know what you mean. I didn't realize the flywheel spinning would make it harder, I niavely assumed the opposite.
I'm going to take @aokoye's advice and email a few clubs to see if I can get a session with somebody familiar with adaptive. I agree that doesn't fit me long term, and the several people who've said this maybe isn't the best idea are probably right. It's bothering me a lot not to be getting exercise for my heart and lungs, I feel like I'm atrophying, and I feel like it's not healthy.
@MikePfirrman thank you for an excellent video!! And to @sgt1372 got explaining the damper, it makes sense now. 🙂
It didn't even occur to me to look at the Concept 2 site, I'm glad to have homework.3 -
What does your trajectory look like in terms how when ankle will be stronger/more mobile/allowing you to get back to sport?
My foot and ankle doctor told me I should be healed well enough for it not to limit me in about 10 weeks, about 3 weeks ago. I think I set myself back almost a week taking a friend hiking to see fall color in a tree she'd never seen before. Lesson learned. 🤕3 -
check out the dark horse rowing channel on youtube tons and tons of good form videos where I learned.
The resistance on the c2 machines is meant to keep you in a drag factor which is the resistance of water as I understand. as the flywheel fins become dirty the the drag factor goes down because of the less air resistance. you raise the power level from 4 to 5 check the drag factor in the settings again and when you have reached the 124ish range your set. Basically it buys you time so that your not constantly cleaning your machine because even in a clean environment they get dirty.3 -
BTW, climbers make incredible rowers. Not to generalize, but I watched one guy from the UK progress so rapidly -- he's a pretty good climber. He's now one of the top Indoor Lightweight rowers in the UK within two or three years.
Like Curlsintherack said, Dark Horse Rowing on Youtube has some great instructional info as well. If you look at the Concept2 forums, look at the Pete Plan thread. I, ironically, started that thread. The Pete Plan is a rowing plan by Pete Marston, a really strong UK Indoor rower. He's created a lot of rowing training plans (like Hal Higdon's in running). Anyway, the Pete Plan has a beginner plan, so that thread became, over a few years, a beginner thread with tons of beginner questions, including my own. Many really experienced guys chip in and answer anything you could imagine on Indoor Rowing questions. It's a great resource for beginners on the Forums.3 -
NorthCascades wrote: »What does your trajectory look like in terms how when ankle will be stronger/more mobile/allowing you to get back to sport?
My foot and ankle doctor told me I should be healed well enough for it not to limit me in about 10 weeks, about 3 weeks ago. I think I set myself back almost a week taking a friend hiking to see fall color in a tree she'd never seen before. Lesson learned. 🤕
10 weeks total with 3 more weeks to go isn't the worst thing in the world, though I know you hate it. That said, if you are wanting to do any erging, even after these three weeks are up, I think getting instruction would probably be best for you given this injury. Also start out light, which is to say, slow. You don't need to set your recovery back more than you already have.1 -
I must have said that backwards, it's about 7 to 8 weeks to go. Still not terrible in the long run, and while it's great weather this week, we're going to get a lot of rain for the rest of my healing, it could be much worse.
This started in August, I spent a month of weekends sitting in parking lots for hiking trails reading books while my friends hiked.3 -
NorthCascades wrote: »My lower back is sore this morning, which is rare for me. What are the chances this is related?
What's your posture like on the rowing machine? I find I have to focus on sitting up rather than slouching.1 -
NorthCascades wrote: »I must have said that backwards, it's about 7 to 8 weeks to go. Still not terrible in the long run, and while it's great weather this week, we're going to get a lot of rain for the rest of my healing, it could be much worse.
This started in August, I spent a month of weekends sitting in parking lots for hiking trails reading books while my friends hiked.
Oh I just misread it. I read "three weeks ago" as "three weeks to go". Seven more weeks is harder than 3, but it'll go by quickly when all is said and done. I'm pretty sure you've read about my history of knee surgeries before so I won't regale you again. That said, I will say that one thing that helped get me through them was reading about other athletes who had dealt with long recoveries from injuries. This was not about whether or not I had it better or worse, rather it was a "they managed to do this and come out the other side, how can I do the same".2 -
Ok, I've done a lot of homework about form, and I'm going back to the gym tonight to try it again. I realized how testing a job I was doing after the pull, bringing myself forward again, I expect tonight to go much better, I'm sure it still won't be perfect.
Are watts as important a metric as they are on a bike? I have a feeling they're influenced more by technique than fitness. If my FTP is around 250w, what should I expect to be doing once I get the hang of this?0 -
NorthCascades wrote: »Ok, I've done a lot of homework about form, and I'm going back to the gym tonight to try it again. I realized how testing a job I was doing after the pull, bringing myself forward again, I expect tonight to go much better, I'm sure it still won't be perfect.
Are watts as important a metric as they are on a bike? I have a feeling they're influenced more by technique than fitness. If my FTP is around 250w, what should I expect to be doing once I get the hang of this?
Most people I know care more about their split than watts with some exceptions*. I also suspect that someone's weight (and the ability to transfer that weight to moving the flywheel) is going to play a significantly larger role on their split on an erg than their FTP on a bike. Regardless, this is not something I would be worrying about right now.
*One of the former collegiate rowers that I know is recovering from an injury (I think she's more or less been out for a few months) and just got on the erg last week. She mentioned over coffee/breakfast this past weekend that she set the monitor to watts so she wouldn't be tempted to get a faster split. From what I can tell, she more or less never looks at watts, or at least doesn't look at them enough to have any sort of metric.2 -
NorthCascades wrote: »Ok, I've done a lot of homework about form, and I'm going back to the gym tonight to try it again. I realized how testing a job I was doing after the pull, bringing myself forward again, I expect tonight to go much better, I'm sure it still won't be perfect.
Are watts as important a metric as they are on a bike? I have a feeling they're influenced more by technique than fitness. If my FTP is around 250w, what should I expect to be doing once I get the hang of this?
As mentioned by others, there are a lot of sites that can provide you videos and written instructions about the proper form and technique to use in rowing.
I find that most of them provide far more complicated "explanations" than needed and I think you can reduce them all to these basic tips:
1) Push with your legs as you pull the handle towards your chest to start the movement.
2) Your legs should do most (if not all) of the work in initiating the movement.
3) After your legs are fully extended, pull the handle towards your chest with your arms/shoulders and UPPER back.
4) This is the only time that your upper body is required to do the movement.
5) Keep your back upright between 11-1 o'clock during the movement; do not slouch.
6) Arch your back as you finish the movement by touching the handle to your chest.
And then begin again.
If you do this, you will automatically be using proper form and you will NOT get a sore lower back because your lower back will only be engaged w/your abs to maintain your core in order to remain upright during the movement.
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NorthCascades wrote: »Ok, I've done a lot of homework about form, and I'm going back to the gym tonight to try it again. I realized how testing a job I was doing after the pull, bringing myself forward again, I expect tonight to go much better, I'm sure it still won't be perfect.
Are watts as important a metric as they are on a bike? I have a feeling they're influenced more by technique than fitness. If my FTP is around 250w, what should I expect to be doing once I get the hang of this?
As mentioned by others, there are a lot of sites that can provide you videos and written instructions about the proper form and technique to use in rowing.
I find that most of them provide far more complicated "explanations" than needed and I think you can reduce them all to these basic tips:
1) Push with your legs as you pull the handle towards your chest to start the movement.
2) Your legs should do most (if not all) of the work in initiating the movement.
3) After your legs are fully extended, pull the handle towards your chest with your arms/shoulders and UPPER back.
4) This is the only time that your upper body is required to do the movement.
5) Keep your back upright between 11-1 o'clock during the movement; do not slouch.
6) Arch your back as you finish the movement by touching the handle to your chest.
And then begin again.
If you do this, you will automatically be using proper form and you will NOT get a sore lower back because your lower back will only be engaged w/your abs to maintain your core in order to remain upright during the movement.
I'm hesitant to correct you because I am not a rowing coach nor have I undergone any coaching education. That said, I think you're a bit off base. The sequence of the stroke, both on the erg and on the water is legs, body, arms and then in reverse (during the recovery) arms, body, legs.
In your first step you said to "Push with your legs as you pull the handle towards your chest to start the movement. ". To me, that sounds like you're saying that you start pulling with your arms at the beginning of the drive (the first part of the stroke). I might be misunderstanding what you've written though. It would be easier explained by quoting one of Concept 2's pages:Start the drive by pressing with your legs, and then swing the back through the vertical position before finally adding the arm pull.
There are some other things going on in your six step summary that fly counter to numerous things that I've been taught by a number of qualified coaches (sometimes it feels like I have too many coaches, but they don't contradict each other), what I've read on Concept 2's website, as well as what I've seen on a the handful of rowing technique videos that I've watched (most of which are aimed at people rowing on the water).2 -
NorthCascades wrote: »Ok, I've done a lot of homework about form, and I'm going back to the gym tonight to try it again. I realized how testing a job I was doing after the pull, bringing myself forward again, I expect tonight to go much better, I'm sure it still won't be perfect.
Are watts as important a metric as they are on a bike? I have a feeling they're influenced more by technique than fitness. If my FTP is around 250w, what should I expect to be doing once I get the hang of this?
For very short duration, performance (watts or splits) is influenced IMO by both technique and muscle strength. (Sometimes very strong people can get decent splits with sub-par technique on the rowing machine . . . but not so much so on the water. ). For pieces of meaningful duration, performance is also influenced by CV fitness along the needed dimensions.
ETA: I have no idea how cycling watts relate to rowing watts in performance terms (very different motions with different body parts, right?), but FWIW 250 watts would be a 1:51.9 pace. For your gender and age group, that would be a good pace for some distances, a kinda sad one for others, and a near miracle for yet others. 2 -
NorthCascades wrote: »Ok, I've done a lot of homework about form, and I'm going back to the gym tonight to try it again. I realized how testing a job I was doing after the pull, bringing myself forward again, I expect tonight to go much better, I'm sure it still won't be perfect.
Are watts as important a metric as they are on a bike? I have a feeling they're influenced more by technique than fitness. If my FTP is around 250w, what should I expect to be doing once I get the hang of this?
Most people I know care more about their split than watts with some exceptions*. I also suspect that someone's weight (and the ability to transfer that weight to moving the flywheel) is going to play a significantly larger role on their split on an erg than their FTP on a bike. Regardless, this is not something I would be worrying about right now.
*One of the former collegiate rowers that I know is recovering from an injury (I think she's more or less been out for a few months) and just got on the erg last week. She mentioned over coffee/breakfast this past weekend that she set the monitor to watts so she wouldn't be tempted to get a faster split. From what I can tell, she more or less never looks at watts, or at least doesn't look at them enough to have any sort of metric.
If C2 is to be believed (and I'll bet they are), watts and splits are equateable by formula.
I expect rowers use splits because we don't (can't?) measure watts in the boat. What matters is pace, specifically (for any non-rowers who might be reading) that minutes/seconds per 500m that is the rowing split. We do measure splits in boats. Almost close to all we care about. NorthCascades wrote: »Ok, I've done a lot of homework about form, and I'm going back to the gym tonight to try it again. I realized how testing a job I was doing after the pull, bringing myself forward again, I expect tonight to go much better, I'm sure it still won't be perfect.
Are watts as important a metric as they are on a bike? I have a feeling they're influenced more by technique than fitness. If my FTP is around 250w, what should I expect to be doing once I get the hang of this?
As mentioned by others, there are a lot of sites that can provide you videos and written instructions about the proper form and technique to use in rowing.
I find that most of them provide far more complicated "explanations" than needed and I think you can reduce them all to these basic tips:
1) Push with your legs as you pull the handle towards your chest to start the movement.
2) Your legs should do most (if not all) of the work in initiating the movement.
3) After your legs are fully extended, pull the handle towards your chest with your arms/shoulders and UPPER back.
4) This is the only time that your upper body is required to do the movement.
5) Keep your back upright between 11-1 o'clock during the movement; do not slouch.
6) Arch your back as you finish the movement by touching the handle to your chest.
And then begin again.
If you do this, you will automatically be using proper form and you will NOT get a sore lower back because your lower back will only be engaged w/your abs to maintain your core in order to remain upright during the movement.
I'm hesitant to correct you because I am not a rowing coach nor have I undergone any coaching education. That said, I think you're a bit off base. The sequence of the stroke, both on the erg and on the water is legs, body, arms and then in reverse (during the recovery) arms, body, legs.
In your first step you said to "Push with your legs as you pull the handle towards your chest to start the movement. ". To me, that sounds like you're saying that you start pulling with your arms at the beginning of the drive (the first part of the stroke). I might be misunderstanding what you've written though. It would be easier explained by quoting one of Concept 2's pages:Start the drive by pressing with your legs, and then swing the back through the vertical position before finally adding the arm pull.
There are some other things going on in your six step summary that fly counter to numerous things that I've been taught by a number of qualified coaches (sometimes it feels like I have too many coaches, but they don't contradict each other), what I've read on Concept 2's website, as well as what I've seen on a the handful of rowing technique videos that I've watched (most of which are aimed at people rowing on the water).
I agree with that, but not sure whether the difference is more in the actual movement, or in the description of it being non-standard. (FWIW, I did do USRowing coaching certification education through level 2, and some other coaching education besides that. But coaching ed and $6 will get you a latte. ).
I'd certainly say you don't arch your back in the arms phase: Straight back still at that point, as always.
I've heard the 11 to 1 thing before, but it's not gospel (can vary with body configuration and ab strength; plus one of the ways some machine-only rowers improve pace is via extreme layback (which requires extreme core to pull off, and will probably flip a boat, unless you're one of the Canadian national team of a few years back
)).
I also agree with you (Aokoye) that it's legs-body-arms-arms-body-legs drive to recovery, pretty pure, with only enough micro-overlap of the parts on the drive to keep the power curve smooth (or maintain the unweighting of butt on seat through the whole drive phase, depending on how you want to look at it). There's upper body engagement (especially lats) during the legs portion just to maintain the body wedge, and suspend the body weight/leg power between foot stretcher and handle so you're towing the handle along as the legs move the body (and handle!) along the slide. The arms-away/body-over portion of the recovery can make a surprising contribution to split, potentially, too, by keeping the flywheel moving (or not ) on the rowing machine, let alone how important it is in a boat. One of my coaches hated that the standard term is "the finish" because a lot of people end up taking a micro-pause there, as (he believed) a consequence of the terminology plus how the sequence is normally taught from catch to finish (when it's really a continous cycle). 1 -
Cut for brevity.NorthCascades wrote: »Ok, I've done a lot of homework about form, and I'm going back to the gym tonight to try it again. I realized how testing a job I was doing after the pull, bringing myself forward again, I expect tonight to go much better, I'm sure it still won't be perfect.
Are watts as important a metric as they are on a bike? I have a feeling they're influenced more by technique than fitness. If my FTP is around 250w, what should I expect to be doing once I get the hang of this?
Most people I know care more about their split than watts with some exceptions*. I also suspect that someone's weight (and the ability to transfer that weight to moving the flywheel) is going to play a significantly larger role on their split on an erg than their FTP on a bike. Regardless, this is not something I would be worrying about right now.
*One of the former collegiate rowers that I know is recovering from an injury (I think she's more or less been out for a few months) and just got on the erg last week. She mentioned over coffee/breakfast this past weekend that she set the monitor to watts so she wouldn't be tempted to get a faster split. From what I can tell, she more or less never looks at watts, or at least doesn't look at them enough to have any sort of metric.
If C2 is to be believed (and I'll bet they are), watts and splits are equateable by formula.
I expect rowers use splits because we don't (can't?) measure watts in the boat. What matters is pace, specifically (for any non-rowers who might be reading) that minutes/seconds per 500m that is the rowing split. We do measure splits in boats. Almost close to all we care about.
Agreed - it seems more than safe to assume that C2 is reliable with regards to their calculation of watts and I'm almost positive they have a calculator on their website that allows you to calculate your split from your watts. You can measure power in the boat though! NK has their EmPower oarlock, though I suspect it's only really feasible for national teams and elite rowers in their own small boats. Cost wise, an individual one is not any more expensive than some of the good dual sided pedal based power meters, but what club that doesn't primarily serve elite rowers has enough money to outfit an 8+ with those, let alone multiple 8s.
They're also apparently not allowed at a number of the USRowing national team trials events - see the last bullet of this page. I'll stick with seeing the benefit of having my own GPS enabled SpeedCoach coupled with the knowledge that I won't be getting one anytime soon (my club has a bunch of stroke coaches, but I'm quickly realizing that there will be times when I'm sculling that I'll want to know my split). Note I'm totally fine with this arrangement, if push comes to shove there might maybe be one SpeedCoach that my club owns and I know a number of people in my club who have their own that I could borrow in a race situation assuming we're not on the water at the same time.1 -
I spent 25 minutes rowing yesterday. I followed some advice from work: slow down to speed up. Focused on form instead of speed and intensity. I kept feeling like I must be getting the back motion wrong, but had no lower back soreness during or after. A little bit of upper back soreness, behind my shoulder blades, and I think this is "the right kind.". My lats and traps are my Achilles heel.
I tried using both legs. The motion doesn't hurt my ankle, but the angle does. Tightening the strap is painful, too. (Tight shoes hurt for the same reason.) So I continued one leg, the other one on the ground.
I feel like this is one of those things that easy to pick up but difficult to master.2 -
Yes, that's exactly right. Takes years of working on form. I've been at it for five years or six years and don't know squat. More than a beginner but some real rowers I know have forgotten more than I'll ever learn. Sounds like, from your description, that is the right type of soreness. You will feel it in your lats and upper neck muscles at first until you get used to it. I don't do a lot of other lifting but my lats have gotten huge with rowing. And I have traps, LOL. You wouldn't have known it before!
To answer your Watts question, I look at them a lot. Two of my longer term Indoor Rowing goals involve Watts. I would like to do an hour on the rower @ 200 Watt average eventually. Most that I've seen go Sub 7 (on the C2) for a 2K race can do an hour @ 200 Watts. Not they are directly correlated, but it helps tremendously if your aerobic capacity is that solid. I also have an AirDyne Pro, which is supposed to be an "A Class" Watts machine, allegedly within 1% of accuracy, so I do a lot of both Indoor Rowing and an Assault type bike. Now, I know it's not a road bike, and it's like Apples and Oranges, but my take is that biking Watts are much easier (because the efficiency) than Rowing Watts. I will say that there are some really amazing former bikers on the C2 forums that have taken to Indoor Rowing in their older years that tend to back this up. One guy was a time trialer cyclist for the UK team. He's now a very competitive lightweight indoor rower.
I think looking at Watts is more of an Indoor Rower thing than a real rower (Aoyoke, Ann). I get Watt envy of some Indoor (and OTW rowers) I know that can easily pull a half marathon @ well over 200 Watts.
I can hold a true 240 something Watts for an hour (not a test, an actual hour) on the AirDyne Bike. Rowing, at my best, I couldn't hold 200 Watts for an hour. 2:00 pace (on the C2 Rower, not the WaterRower) is 200 Watts. I'd guess that would equate to around a 1:50 pace on the WaterRower, which tends to show a lot faster times than the C2. Oh, the C2 is also calibrated to be very accurate on Watts. In that regard, I disagree with Aoyoke. It might even be more accurate than a lot of Power meter measurements for Bikers. I wouldn't trust any other machine in terms of accuracy but the C2.
There is an app that allows C2 rowers to use on Zwift. It has an algorhythm that speeds up the Watts on the rower and converts them to around the same effort as it takes to bike at a certain speed. It's called Painsled. I have used it before, but don't tend to do it. It's a little odd to row as a biker. Most designate (somehow) that they are on a rower out of a sense of fairness to the bikers. It's fun for something different and most rowers don't know about Zwift.2 -
NorthCascades wrote: »I spent 25 minutes rowing yesterday. I followed some advice from work: slow down to speed up. Focused on form instead of speed and intensity. I kept feeling like I must be getting the back motion wrong, but had no lower back soreness during or after. A little bit of upper back soreness, behind my shoulder blades, and I think this is "the right kind.". My lats and traps are my Achilles heel.
I tried using both legs. The motion doesn't hurt my ankle, but the angle does. Tightening the strap is painful, too. (Tight shoes hurt for the same reason.) So I continued one leg, the other one on the ground.
I feel like this is one of those things that easy to pick up but difficult to master.
It's OK to row feet out (no straps) if you want to try that. It's even useful for some technique issues, especially around the finish-to-recovery transition. We do it as a drill sometimes.
It sounds like you're making good progress, and I'm glad your lower back is doing better.
Between shoulder blades soreness is OK, but be sure that you're keeping your shoulders down (the traps comment is what triggered me to say this - it's not necessarily indicative of a problem, but it matters how you're using them - they're more maintaining structure and connection for the suspension between handle and feet, not so much actually pulling).
A common beginner fault is over-using upper body via pulling shoulders up (perhaps subtly) and other ways, short-changing the more powerful big-muscles lower-body part of the drive. Many people do it, but IMO that problem seems to be a little more common among men, perhaps because on average upper body strength is higher than women's in the first place, and perhaps there's a tendency to be a little more in touch with upper body strength (again, on average, not universal) because of using it more in daily life. Dunno. I've worked with a bunch of beginners (assisting with a decade or more of on-water learn-to-row classes), and it seems to be a pattern, to me.
Many instructional sources tell you to keep your feet (heels) down on the foot-stretcher all the way to vertical shins, which is right, if you can do it. If you can't - or if it would be ankle-sparing for you right now? - it's OK to let the heels come up at the very end of the recovery in order to get vertical shins, as long as the first move of the drive is to reconnect the heels with the foot stretcher at the start of the leg push. Don't wanna be pushing from the balls of the feet for the main drive.
Slowing down is good - very good. It's absolutely possible to get good power at stroke ratings (term we use more than spm) in the lower teens, and working at that can be helpful because the lower spm gives you more think/feel time for technique. If you work on power at a low rating through technique, then gradually increase spm while holding onto the technique and power, that's a good way to progress IMO. Most on-water rowers do huge amounts of indoor rowing at spm in the 20s, and even good rowers use stroke ratings in the teens sometimes for drills. Higher 20s into the 30s is for more limited race-pace training, typically.
As an aside, there's typically a stroke rating at which technique falls apart - maybe not for world-class rowers, but for many of us normal people. On the rowing machine, that technique loss can be a tradeoff for what one can wring out of power and endurance (to a certain extent) at the higher rating. On the water, it normally shows up quite clearly as a slower pace at the higher rating, because technique matters more on water. (Our coach would work with us at various ratings in big boats, and tell us what range to race in. In the single/double, I do a similar thing with a device (Garmin, these days, though specialized ones can be better for those more serious than I now am about training.) )
(On a bunch of threads, I've posted a video of a young woman, Sofia Asoumanaki, breaking a world record at what looks to be spm in the 20s most of the way. If you're interested & haven't seen it, I can post a link. It's quite startling to people who think you have to take the slide like a bat out of perdition to get good pace or a good workout.)
Consider videoing yourself and reviewing it in comparison to the good instructional videos, if you have a convenient way to do that. If you plan on continuing with this, investing up front in getting good technique into muscle memory is a Really Good Plan. Reprogramming is harder. (Ask me how I know. ).
Easy to pick up? Average performance at gyms argues otherwise. You're paying attention to technique, so I think there's more hope for you than average, though. Difficult to master? All those technique details - especially with on-water, but even with machine - are part of what makes rowing fun long term: So many opportunities to fine tune and improve.
Apologies for yet another essay. I could talk about rowing all day. It's a character fault. :flowerforyou:1
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