Applying the C25k structure to other aerobic exercises

MelodiousMermaid

Has anyone tried applying the C25k structure to other types of exercise? Any thoughts to share on what might need to be changed/adapted?

Background behind my query:
Perhaps it's just that I need to lose a bunch more weight before trying again (though with big toe spurs/arthritis, I'm a bit doubtful). Regardless, walking is shooting my pain (a few types, foot and knees) levels up by 6 miles, 3 MPH or less pace, broken up over the day.

I have started learning how to properly erg row (Concept2), and find my body tolerates it well. Other than the sitting for a longer time on that hard seat anyway. I am very slow though. I wish to improve my ability to maintain a better pace for more than a short bit, so I had the thought that perhaps this might be an option, as I recall trying the C25k program years ago with success in improving endurance and pace for jogging.

Thanks to all who have experience/related knowledge to share!

aokoye

All C25k is is a good interval program with gradual increase in distance. You can definitely find similar plans for other aerobic activities. In terms of erging, the two plans that come to mind and I can easily find links to are the Beginner Pete Plan, which @MikePfirrman may be able to speak to, and British Rowing's indoor rowing plans (which includes a beginner plan).

AnnPT77

What aokoye said. There are training plans available, often for free, for pretty much any sport that's done competitively, like rowing. (There are indoor races on machines, too, not just on-water ones.)

Besides a training plan in the conventional sense, with rowing it's super important to work on your technique. With poor technique, it's difficult to get a decent workout, let alone become fast. Even many gym trainers do it wrong!

It's best to dial in good technique right away, as it's much more difficult to break bad habits once they're in muscle memory. (Don't ask me how I know this !) The Concept 2 website has a training section with lots of good videos and information, plus a helpful online community, challenges, and more.

Best wishes!

AnnPT77

AnnPT77 wrote: »

What aokoye said. There are training plans available, often for free, for pretty much any sport that's done competitively, like rowing. (There are indoor races on machines, too, not just on-water ones.)

Besides a training plan in the conventional sense, with rowing it's super important to work on your technique. With poor technique, it's difficult to get a decent workout, let alone become fast. Even many gym trainers do it wrong!

It's best to dial in good technique right away, as it's much more difficult to break bad habits once they're in muscle memory. (Don't ask me how I know this !) The Concept 2 website has a training section with lots of good videos and information, plus a helpful online community, challenges, and more.

Best wishes!

Now that I'm at a device that makes it practical, here's the link, for completeness:

https://www.concept2.com/indoor-rowers/training

jayhschmidt

MelodiousMermaid wrote: »

sitting for a longer time on that hard seat anyway.

Those seats are brutal. Get a seat pad; it won't end the pain completely, but it'll help. Technique is of paramount importance.

MelodiousMermaid wrote: »

I wish to improve my ability to maintain a better pace for more than a short bit,

Improving your technique will allow you to do that.

The training plans I've found online prepare you for racing, rather than focusing on general aerobic fitness and fat-burning. An alternative to those plans is heart-rate training (once you can tolerate sitting on the rower for 20+ minutes). If you regularly row 6k or 10k, after a time your body will get stronger (and more flexible). Using a heart-rate monitor during those rows makes it simple to limit your intensity so you can recover quickly.

Eventually you'll probably want to test yourself with a race against the clock, but that's something I would advise against until you feel loose, relaxed, and pain-free on the erg.

MelodiousMermaid

Thank you all for your replies thus far. I have been going through the C2 website, and I think I'm getting the fundamentals well enough for where things are for me right now (my body in its current state limits my motion - apple shape/obesity). I've been [reasonably] comfortably rowing around 3:20-50+ depending on the length of time.

I can tolerate an hour or a bit more consecutively on the rower as things are now, but definitely still need to adjust to the seat.

My current hopes for improvement don't move into competitive performance so much as maybe breaking the 3:00 pace without feeling like roadkill within 30 seconds. I'm hoping to start whatever training program the week of New Year's, so I'll keep reading through things and try to get it all figured out. The heart rate monitor sounds like an interesting idea regardless of what route I take. I have yet to look into anything in that regard, though was thinking about getting some sort of health-type watch next year if I don't get one for Christmas. Definitely something to look into.

Thanks again.

AnnPT77

MelodiousMermaid wrote: »

Thank you all for your replies thus far. I have been going through the C2 website, and I think I'm getting the fundamentals well enough for where things are for me right now (my body in its current state limits my motion - apple shape/obesity). I've been [reasonably] comfortably rowing around 3:20-50+ depending on the length of time.

I can tolerate an hour or a bit more consecutively on the rower as things are now, but definitely still need to adjust to the seat.

My current hopes for improvement don't move into competitive performance so much as maybe breaking the 3:00 pace without feeling like roadkill within 30 seconds. I'm hoping to start whatever training program the week of New Year's, so I'll keep reading through things and try to get it all figured out. The heart rate monitor sounds like an interesting idea regardless of what route I take. I have yet to look into anything in that regard, though was thinking about getting some sort of health-type watch next year if I don't get one for Christmas. Definitely something to look into.

Thanks again.

I was obese for about the first decade of rowing, and regularly have rowed with women who were heavier for their height than I was then, so I understand the body shape issues fairly well.

If you feel comfortable saying, what's your height/weight at this point? That would give me an idea of some suggestions that might be helpful. Usually, the main issue is getting to full compression (shins vertical, upper body over thighs, arms extended, but without dropping your knees to the sides or curving your back dangerously).

If you're looking for a general-fitness training program for the rowing machine, the training PDF on the Concept 2 web site includes suitable recommendations. It's not just for racing. I think the plans aokoye pointed out are good, too, even if you're not aiming at racing.

Designing your own heart-rate training program is more complicated, at this point, but having a heart rate monitor or tracker can provide some useful feedback. (It doesn't do calorie estimates as accurately for interval workouts, and using heart rate as a training guide is limited unless/until you know your true maximum heart rate: The age based formulas are wrong for many people. If I believed my age-estimated max heart rate, I'd be severely undertraining. Max heart rate is mostly about genetics, not a fitness issue.)

I do like my Garmin (I have a Vivoactive 3, now replaced in their line with Vivoactive 4, I think), partly because it will let me tell it my workout is indoor rowing, then it will keep some rowing-specific estimates for me. There are also lots of other apps you can use with the C2 machines, from C2 and others (you've probably read about them on their website; they're usually pretty good about highlighting even apps sold by others that will work with their machines).

When you say that you're currently hitting 3:20-3:50ish pace, what rating (strokes per minute/spm) is that at, for you? It can be more fatiguing to go at a high spm, vs. going slower and focusing on technique/power on each individual stroke. As a women, you want the damper on the C2 to be somewhere in the 3-5 range (too many people think it's resistance, and set it on 10: That's not what it's for.) I do most of my workouts with spm somewhere in the 20s . . . lower 20s, even high teens, for easy/moderate steady state.

For pace, technique and strength (especially leg strength) are the biggest determinants. Being at a heavier body weight can even give a modest advantage, in a way: You're trying to suspend your bodyweight between the handle and foot-stretcher, adding leg power to multiply the body-weight effect. (Literally, with proper technique, your butt will slightly decompress on the seat . . . you don't pop all the way off it, because the force is horizontal.) If you get the suspension part down (which is all about technique), a little extra body weight can help.

As far as seat comfort issues, a few thoughts:

First, that suggestion about seat pads is good. You can make one from closed cell foam (I used an old sleeping-bag pad, cut to seat size), or even use a folded towel, for starters. Many people like the gel pads that are available from various vendors, such as JL (https://jlathletics.com/products/jel-seat-pad). Concept 2 sells a stick-on foam one with sitz-bone cutouts for only $3.50, if you have your own rowing machine (https://www.concept2.com/indoor-rowers/accessories/seat-pad).

Second, if part of the problem is chafing, a product like Body Glide can help. It's not as goopy as something like vaseline or lotion, but reduces chafing. There are other brands, but that's the one I use. (For some reason, I get chafing from the rowing machine seat, but not from my boat seats.) Not as a marketing pitch, because it's available at lots of places like sporting goods stores (as are its competitors), here's a link to it at Amazon so you can see what it is, if you're not familiar: https://www.amazon.com/Body-Glide-Original-Anti-Chafe-Balm/dp/B07CYQDDHC .

Third, lots of on-water rowers do "pieces" rather than routinely doing long, continuous rowing workouts. I'm sure you've seen some examples on the C2 website by now, but just as an example, I'm doing lots of my steady-state Holiday Challenge meters as 4 pieces of 2K each, with a 2-minute "rest" between - I just set that up on the monitor, and go. For me, the rest portion is 5 easy strokes rowing out, about one minute of grabbing a drink of water and mopping off sweat, then 30 seconds or so of easy rowing into the next piece. A longer rest interval would be fine while you're new and working on endurance, and would give you a chance to get up off the seat briefly, which maybe would help with the discomfort. A continous hour is a really long time (though obviously some people do half-marathons, marathons, and longer distances . . . but not daily! ). A pretty common thing is rest intervals half as long as the work intervals (the rest intervals may be partly easy rowing, like what I described above).

Best wishes!

aokoye

jayhschmidt wrote: »

MelodiousMermaid wrote: »

sitting for a longer time on that hard seat anyway.

Those seats are brutal. Get a seat pad; it won't end the pain completely, but it'll help. Technique is of paramount importance.

MelodiousMermaid wrote: »

I wish to improve my ability to maintain a better pace for more than a short bit,

Improving your technique will allow you to do that.

The training plans I've found online prepare you for racing, rather than focusing on general aerobic fitness and fat-burning. An alternative to those plans is heart-rate training (once you can tolerate sitting on the rower for 20+ minutes). If you regularly row 6k or 10k, after a time your body will get stronger (and more flexible). Using a heart-rate monitor during those rows makes it simple to limit your intensity so you can recover quickly.

Eventually you'll probably want to test yourself with a race against the clock, but that's something I would advise against until you feel loose, relaxed, and pain-free on the erg.

The majority of the plans I linked to (I'm including the multiple plans on British Rowing's website) aren't aimed squarely at people who are competing. Rather most of them are aimed at people who are wanting to gain aerobic fitness. The only one that probably is more suited to people who are wanting to be competitive in a 2k erg race is the advanced plan on British Rowing's website, but they also have beginning and intermediate plans. I do think that HR training is very useful, but if you're going to use a erging plan that uses HR as a metric, you're likely going to want to have a fairly accurate idea of what your max HR on an erg is which isn't exactly an enjoyable endevor for someone who is new to erging.

aokoye

MelodiousMermaid wrote: »

Thank you all for your replies thus far. I have been going through the C2 website, and I think I'm getting the fundamentals well enough for where things are for me right now (my body in its current state limits my motion - apple shape/obesity). I've been [reasonably] comfortably rowing around 3:20-50+ depending on the length of time.

I can tolerate an hour or a bit more consecutively on the rower as things are now, but definitely still need to adjust to the seat.

My current hopes for improvement don't move into competitive performance so much as maybe breaking the 3:00 pace without feeling like roadkill within 30 seconds. I'm hoping to start whatever training program the week of New Year's, so I'll keep reading through things and try to get it all figured out. The heart rate monitor sounds like an interesting idea regardless of what route I take. I have yet to look into anything in that regard, though was thinking about getting some sort of health-type watch next year if I don't get one for Christmas. Definitely something to look into.

Thanks again.

One thing that I really like about doing HR based training on an erg is that it forces me to do things in a bit more of a sustainable way. If you go searching, you'll likely find plans that give heart rate zones like UT2, UT1, and AT. Those are various percentages of your max HR and there's a pretty good explanation of that here: https://www.coachbergenroth.com/training-for-an-indoor-ergometer-race/ . That said, I suspect a lot of the plans you may fine will look very similar to plans that aren't based on HR. It'll essentially be an intervals of time or distance but with an added "stay in this HR zone".

MelodiousMermaid

Thank you both so much!

Here are my current body stats:
F
5' 1"
196.9 lbs

A lot of my excess fat is in my abdominal area, so when I go through the recovery to the catch, it's very much like a "squished marshmallow" effect (which I detest) and compromise by having my lower legs not come all the way to perpendicular to the ground, and my upper body is probably more like "11:30" or "12:00" rather than "11:00" as I'm forward. By not going as far in for the catch, I am also allowing my legs to stay centered where they should be, as I would have to move them outward if I were to try to get to perpendicular with my lower legs.

My rowing stats:
Drag factor ~95 (machines vary, but try to keep it close, all are gym machines, PM5 if that makes any difference)
Damper ends up around 4 (I think they probably haven't cleaned the flywheels in a long time, as elevation here is about 1,400 over sea level)
SPM on rows where I feel like adding power (without burning out) ends up around 22-24, less power has me more like 25-26 (especially if I'm trying to keep it less intense on strength training days)
Drive length: generally 0.65 to a very, very rare 0.80
Setting for the footstretcher: 3
Force curve is pretty decent shape, but it's a sad, sad tiny hill

For rowing right now it's generally been more about getting a good bunch of LISS in, as I start to deal with some breathing issues that seem sort of light asthma-ish the heavier workout I get. I need to find some more fitness though, so I know I need to get something going, hence the C25k interval idea that popped into my head and our current discussion. I loved interval training in the past, so whatever the programming maybe I can find some sort of sweet spot with 3x/week 30 minute training.

That decompress thing is interesting. I don't think I've gotten that, but haven't really known about it/paid attention. I will have to do that. I'm not sure how much I'd decompress with the extra "built-in padding"?

That heart rate thing does sound like it could be more complicated, especially without knowing my max. I was actually thinking about the Garmin VA4, so that's good to hear that I am probably on the right track with that. The biggest thing I'm looking for feedback from the watch for are sleep and heart rate, but I'm hoping that over time I might be able to analyze the differences in calculated TDEE on the watch and the final MFP outcome for the day, compare to real-world changes, and start to iron out exactly where things are for me so I can eventually get pretty precise with training fueling and maintenance/recomp when I reach a healthy BF%, because I really would like to get stronger and fitter.

Thankfully the comfort issue hasn't had the chafing aspect, at least at this point, but that's good info to know. I have a foam stadium seat thing that I plan to try tomorrow when I row, so hopefully that will go well. Can't really do much to alter the machine's seat, as it's not mine, but will try foam as you mentioned if the stadium seat proves to be a poor match.

I think I'd be interested in trying a (slow) HM or M at some point, but yes, definitely have to agree it doesn't sound like a daily thing. I've broken up my rowing by putting a bit of walking in between, but haven't tried to do a specific time or distance interval split with timed breaks. I will have to become yet more familiar with the PM.

I will take some time to look through all the workouts you've both recommended to me. If there is a particular one that stands out to you based on your experience and my current situation, please let me know.

AnnPT77

MelodiousMermaid wrote: »

Thank you both so much!

Here are my current body stats:
F
5' 1"
196.9 lbs

A lot of my excess fat is in my abdominal area, so when I go through the recovery to the catch, it's very much like a "squished marshmallow" effect (which I detest) and compromise by having my lower legs not come all the way to perpendicular to the ground, and my upper body is probably more like "11:30" or "12:00" rather than "11:00" as I'm forward. By not going as far in for the catch, I am also allowing my legs to stay centered where they should be, as I would have to move them outward if I were to try to get to perpendicular with my lower legs.

My rowing stats:
Drag factor ~95 (machines vary, but try to keep it close, all are gym machines, PM5 if that makes any difference)
Damper ends up around 4 (I think they probably haven't cleaned the flywheels in a long time, as elevation here is about 1,400 over sea level)
SPM on rows where I feel like adding power (without burning out) ends up around 22-24, less power has me more like 25-26 (especially if I'm trying to keep it less intense on strength training days)
Drive length: generally 0.65 to a very, very rare 0.80
Setting for the footstretcher: 3
Force curve is pretty decent shape, but it's a sad, sad tiny hill

For rowing right now it's generally been more about getting a good bunch of LISS in, as I start to deal with some breathing issues that seem sort of light asthma-ish the heavier workout I get. I need to find some more fitness though, so I know I need to get something going, hence the C25k interval idea that popped into my head and our current discussion. I loved interval training in the past, so whatever the programming maybe I can find some sort of sweet spot with 3x/week 30 minute training.

That decompress thing is interesting. I don't think I've gotten that, but haven't really known about it/paid attention. I will have to do that. I'm not sure how much I'd decompress with the extra "built-in padding"?

That heart rate thing does sound like it could be more complicated, especially without knowing my max. I was actually thinking about the Garmin VA4, so that's good to hear that I am probably on the right track with that. The biggest thing I'm looking for feedback from the watch for are sleep and heart rate, but I'm hoping that over time I might be able to analyze the differences in calculated TDEE on the watch and the final MFP outcome for the day, compare to real-world changes, and start to iron out exactly where things are for me so I can eventually get pretty precise with training fueling and maintenance/recomp when I reach a healthy BF%, because I really would like to get stronger and fitter.

Thankfully the comfort issue hasn't had the chafing aspect, at least at this point, but that's good info to know. I have a foam stadium seat thing that I plan to try tomorrow when I row, so hopefully that will go well. Can't really do much to alter the machine's seat, as it's not mine, but will try foam as you mentioned if the stadium seat proves to be a poor match.

I think I'd be interested in trying a (slow) HM or M at some point, but yes, definitely have to agree it doesn't sound like a daily thing. I've broken up my rowing by putting a bit of walking in between, but haven't tried to do a specific time or distance interval split with timed breaks. I will have to become yet more familiar with the PM.

I will take some time to look through all the workouts you've both recommended to me. If there is a particular one that stands out to you based on your experience and my current situation, please let me know.

I want to give your whole post a better reading, and more thought, when I'm a little less busy than right now, and may then have some more specific thoughts.

The one reaction I have quickly is about the bolded: Improvement is really less about "a" workout, and more about a sensible pattern of workouts, over quite a period of time. (How long that period is is going to vary based on more details about objectives, but weeks to months, or even a full year, is possible. Not "a" workout, and - other than maybe some pre-race sharpening and tapering - not even days to small numbers of weeks. Longer.)

That's really what C25K is, I understand it: A plan for going from a certain amount of walking ability, to the ability to run 5K continuously. After that, if a person wants to keep going, they adopt a new plan focused on the new goal (10K, HM, whatever). It happens over weeks to months, depending on the plan, and typically includes running days of varying intensities/lengths, and rest days.

One of the things you'll see runners here advise other runners is that if they want to get faster, they should put a good bit of their effort investment into running slower, but longer (duration). That's not commonly said among rowers that I've seen**, but the basic idea is still in the training plans: There's always lot of LISS/MISS, less of high intensity (but some, after beginner levels). From rowing coaches, you're more likely to hear more emphasis on technique, because rowing is not at all "natural" as a motion****. It's a pretty non-intuitive technique that needs to be learned. But lower intensity volume will be a huge and necessary part of any reasonabl plan, including at elite levels. (And coached technical drills are routinely part of rowing at elite levels, too.)

** My coaches, and others I've learned from, are more emphasizing following a structured plan, and not just exhorting people to row slower but longer. It makes a difference that rowing training (and research about it) is mostly focused on the short-distance endurance events. Few rowers row competitively primarily for distance (there are some). Indoor races are mostly 2K, on-water sprints are usually 1k or 2k, head races vary but usually 5k more or less (the biggie, Head of the Charles, is 3 miles.) In that sense, one of the earlier posters has a point. But if you want to get faster, which seems to be your goal, the rowing training plans absolutely are about that.

**** Runners: I'm not trying to be offensive, not at all. I know that technique is very important for running, and that technique improvements can improve pace/endurance, as well as help avoid injury. All I'm saying is that if you ask Jane or Joe Average (who's not trained, but isn't punitively under-fit for it) to run at a moderate pace for say 100 meters, they will do something that, though possibly sub-ideal, is at least plausibly similar to proper running. If you put that same person, untrained, on a rowing machine, they will not normally do anything that's really plausibly similar to proper machine rowing, and if you put them in a single rowing shell, they will in all likelihood be swimming in mere moments. It's not intuitive, not very much at all.

Jthanmyfitnesspal

YES! Interval training can improve your performance on just about any aerobic activity.

If you can stand putting on a bathing suit and getting in the water, you'll be rewarded with probably the best possible options, including water aerobics, water-bike, and swimming. All can be done with intervals. (I did swim intervals just today!)

My next go-to would be stationary bike. Either the "recumbent" style (low seat) or standard style. These are known to be very easy on the joints, especially the recumbent style. Add interval training and you have an excellent workout! They may help your walking as well.

Best of luck!

AnnPT77

MelodiousMermaid wrote: »

Thank you both so much!

Here are my current body stats:
F
5' 1"
196.9 lbs

A lot of my excess fat is in my abdominal area, so when I go through the recovery to the catch, it's very much like a "squished marshmallow" effect (which I detest) and compromise by having my lower legs not come all the way to perpendicular to the ground, and my upper body is probably more like "11:30" or "12:00" rather than "11:00" as I'm forward. By not going as far in for the catch, I am also allowing my legs to stay centered where they should be, as I would have to move them outward if I were to try to get to perpendicular with my lower legs.

It sounds like you're making good adaptations.

I'm sure you're doing fine, but the only things you didn't mention were
* recognizing that it's OK for the heels to come up a bit off the footstretchers as you come to the catch, as long as those heels connecting again is the very first thing on the drive (not pushing with toes/balls of feet); and
* you're not letting your back (spine) curve any extra (i.e., sitting up straight for you, and keeping that consistent via engaged core, rather than articulating into more of a "C" shape than usual), so that you are swinging the body open at the hip joint, not the back itself - using the big muscles.

That 11/1 angle thing is an approximation, a rule of thumb. Improved flexibility through hamstrings and back are a help, of course, but I know from experience what you're saying about body proportions. (I was in the mid 180s, though a little taller at 5'5", for years as a rower.) People's forward swing can be limited by that, and back swing limited by core strength and other aspects of body configuration. It's about keeping the power on, basically, and how much backswing a particular person can get while keeping power on. Should be able to feel it, and probably see it in the force curve. (For a few years, sometime back, the Canadian national team used extreme layback in on-water races, and won a lot. They had monster core strength of course, and some people wonder whether they did the extreme thing partly to freak out the competition. ).

My rowing stats:
Drag factor ~95 (machines vary, but try to keep it close, all are gym machines, PM5 if that makes any difference)
Damper ends up around 4 (I think they probably haven't cleaned the flywheels in a long time, as elevation here is about 1,400 over sea level)
SPM on rows where I feel like adding power (without burning out) ends up around 22-24, less power has me more like 25-26 (especially if I'm trying to keep it less intense on strength training days)
Drive length: generally 0.65 to a very, very rare 0.80
Setting for the footstretcher: 3
Force curve is pretty decent shape, but it's a sad, sad tiny hill

Damper 4/DF 95ish should be fine, if that feels comfortable. (Mine is around 3/DF 103, last I checked. Feels a little heavier than the racing single, more like the double or larger.)

Just in the interest of hitting some easy stuff: Are you getting hands away/body over quickly, to keep the flywheel spinning as fast as possible? You may be able to get a few seconds of split for free by smoothly accelerating the arms part of the drive (elbows relaxed out to the sides), then taking the handle back out with arms and body sequence at that same speed, before relaxing into the rest of the recovery. If there's any hint of "whew"/rest at the finish or arms/body transition, it has a cost. (This seems like a bit of a cheat on the machine, but there's a point to it in a boat, especially IMO sculling. ).

For rowing right now it's generally been more about getting a good bunch of LISS in, as I start to deal with some breathing issues that seem sort of light asthma-ish the heavier workout I get. I need to find some more fitness though, so I know I need to get something going, hence the C25k interval idea that popped into my head and our current discussion. I loved interval training in the past, so whatever the programming maybe I can find some sort of sweet spot with 3x/week 30 minute training.

LISS is good!

What does your doctor say about the breathing? I assume you know exercise-induced asthma can be a thing.

Again, keep in mind that the C25K intervals are about taking someone from a walk to a run, and building endurance. It sounds like your endurance is already pretty good, but you're concerned about pace, which may be more about strength or technique, in rowing. (It will tax endurance a bit more to be faster, of course, but it doesn't really seem that simple endurance is your limitation if you're doing hour-long steady state rows already.)

That decompress thing is interesting. I don't think I've gotten that, but haven't really known about it/paid attention. I will have to do that. I'm not sure how much I'd decompress with the extra "built-in padding"?

Rowing coaches are all "suspend - suspend - suspend!" and that slight unweighting is a way one might perceive it. Extra body padding won't prevent it. If you think about it, weight on the seat is of low value: It's like a potential energy transfer choke point. You want horizontal force, not pop-up-in-the-air force, of course; and you don't want to lose the seat (!) so a little friction there is good, but mainly getting your weight on the handle as you push with your legs on the feet/footstretcher is a speed aid . . . but it takes good technique.

Heels down first, maintaining the forward body wedge, keeping the shoulders and back between the shoulder blades connected and engaged (all they're doing during the legs phase is transfering force from the hand-hook through the arm-cables and engaged shoulders/core through the hips to the foot stretcher, mostly - shape above the hips doesn't change during legs, until the swing).

Thinking about starting the drive with your hips behind your upper body, and keeping them there until you swing, might be a help. If you focus on really applying the leg strength in that way, and making the leg phase last appropriately long, you might see the peak of your force curve shift a bit to the left, and feel a bit of that unweighting/decompressing. Then one tries to keep it going through the transition to swing and arms.

One of my very interesting (lucky!) experiences was sitting in an eight behind a collegiate rower who was later voted best in conference (big/competitive conference), and is now one of the top handful of women rowers in the world, as she was asked to row arms-only. This is a thing we do in boats as a drill, and is what it sound like: You're in the swung-open layback position, just applying arm force to the handle and footstretcher. It's kinda hard to get good engagement. Sitting behind her, I could see the slight unweighting on the seat happen: Her glutes spread out less as the force went on the handle. Amazing. On a good day, I can carry it through the stroke if I get it at the start . . . but I can't get it starting from arms-only. It's energetically taxing, but increases speed.

That heart rate thing does sound like it could be more complicated, especially without knowing my max. I was actually thinking about the Garmin VA4, so that's good to hear that I am probably on the right track with that. The biggest thing I'm looking for feedback from the watch for are sleep and heart rate, but I'm hoping that over time I might be able to analyze the differences in calculated TDEE on the watch and the final MFP outcome for the day, compare to real-world changes, and start to iron out exactly where things are for me so I can eventually get pretty precise with training fueling and maintenance/recomp when I reach a healthy BF%, because I really would like to get stronger and fitter.

It's a digression, but research suggests the sleep tracking of any of these isn't very super-duper yet, as I understand it. Mine certainly gets mine wrong, but I do have weird form of sleep interruption insomnia, among other sleep issues, so I'm statistically odd. It seems to do a good job with all-day heart rate, but I do find I need a chest belt paired with it for rowing, or it will drop beats often enough to be annoying. I think there's just too much arm flexing. I don't seem to have that problem with other activities.

As you move along in fitness, you may be able to do some experimenting that will give you a better handle on actual HRmax, looking at Rate of Perceived Exertion (RPE) and endurance/fatigue, among other potential benchmarks. As more of a fitness beginner, RPE can be a perfectly adequate training guide, but trying to use it to speculate about HRmax is likely to be misleading because too many things may still feel very intense. A max test should wait for decent fitness, IMO. Some sub-max tests to estimate max do exist.

The Garmin indoor rowing specific estimates (stroke rating, mainly) are estimates from arm movement, so they can occasionally be a little wonky. Still, it can be useful to line that up with HR response curves and your split targets, to see how you're doing. One of the best uses of a HRM-type device, for many of us, is helping to enforce the discipline to stay LISS or MISS when that's the workout goal, instead of going for more speed.

It does more stuff for on-water rowing that I find useful.

Thankfully the comfort issue hasn't had the chafing aspect, at least at this point, but that's good info to know. I have a foam stadium seat thing that I plan to try tomorrow when I row, so hopefully that will go well. Can't really do much to alter the machine's seat, as it's not mine, but will try foam as you mentioned if the stadium seat proves to be a poor match.

I think I'd be interested in trying a (slow) HM or M at some point, but yes, definitely have to agree it doesn't sound like a daily thing. I've broken up my rowing by putting a bit of walking in between, but haven't tried to do a specific time or distance interval split with timed breaks. I will have to become yet more familiar with the PM.

I will take some time to look through all the workouts you've both recommended to me. If there is a particular one that stands out to you based on your experience and my current situation, please let me know.

At this stage, I'd point back at my PP: It's about the pattern of workouts, not individual ones. An actual plan will help with progress. OTOH, if you just want to do intervals without a structured plan, for variety or whatever benefits they may have on their own, there are bunches of them in the C2 workouts of the day, and/or the C2 blogs. (It will help to learn to use the monitor to set them up.)

Best wishes!

aokoye

MelodiousMermaid wrote: »

Thank you both so much!

Here are my current body stats:
F
5' 1"
196.9 lbs

A lot of my excess fat is in my abdominal area, so when I go through the recovery to the catch, it's very much like a "squished marshmallow" effect (which I detest) and compromise by having my lower legs not come all the way to perpendicular to the ground, and my upper body is probably more like "11:30" or "12:00" rather than "11:00" as I'm forward. By not going as far in for the catch, I am also allowing my legs to stay centered where they should be, as I would have to move them outward if I were to try to get to perpendicular with my lower legs.

My rowing stats:
Drag factor ~95 (machines vary, but try to keep it close, all are gym machines, PM5 if that makes any difference)
Damper ends up around 4 (I think they probably haven't cleaned the flywheels in a long time, as elevation here is about 1,400 over sea level)
SPM on rows where I feel like adding power (without burning out) ends up around 22-24, less power has me more like 25-26 (especially if I'm trying to keep it less intense on strength training days)
Drive length: generally 0.65 to a very, very rare 0.80
Setting for the footstretcher: 3
Force curve is pretty decent shape, but it's a sad, sad tiny hill

For rowing right now it's generally been more about getting a good bunch of LISS in, as I start to deal with some breathing issues that seem sort of light asthma-ish the heavier workout I get. I need to find some more fitness though, so I know I need to get something going, hence the C25k interval idea that popped into my head and our current discussion. I loved interval training in the past, so whatever the programming maybe I can find some sort of sweet spot with 3x/week 30 minute training.

That decompress thing is interesting. I don't think I've gotten that, but haven't really known about it/paid attention. I will have to do that. I'm not sure how much I'd decompress with the extra "built-in padding"?

That heart rate thing does sound like it could be more complicated, especially without knowing my max. I was actually thinking about the Garmin VA4, so that's good to hear that I am probably on the right track with that. The biggest thing I'm looking for feedback from the watch for are sleep and heart rate, but I'm hoping that over time I might be able to analyze the differences in calculated TDEE on the watch and the final MFP outcome for the day, compare to real-world changes, and start to iron out exactly where things are for me so I can eventually get pretty precise with training fueling and maintenance/recomp when I reach a healthy BF%, because I really would like to get stronger and fitter.

Thankfully the comfort issue hasn't had the chafing aspect, at least at this point, but that's good info to know. I have a foam stadium seat thing that I plan to try tomorrow when I row, so hopefully that will go well. Can't really do much to alter the machine's seat, as it's not mine, but will try foam as you mentioned if the stadium seat proves to be a poor match.

I think I'd be interested in trying a (slow) HM or M at some point, but yes, definitely have to agree it doesn't sound like a daily thing. I've broken up my rowing by putting a bit of walking in between, but haven't tried to do a specific time or distance interval split with timed breaks. I will have to become yet more familiar with the PM.

I will take some time to look through all the workouts you've both recommended to me. If there is a particular one that stands out to you based on your experience and my current situation, please let me know.

First can I just say, I'm so glad that you realize what drag factor is and it sounds like you realize that it's more important than "I just put damper here and go". That, combined with other things that you've written, show me (and Ann, among others) that you've really done you reading and taken it to heart. It's refreshing.

Do you use an inhaler when you exercise? It might be worth a trip to your doctor to see about managing your asthma symptoms while exercising. I think it's worth starting to get a handle on that now rather than later and I know at least one person who uses an inhaler right before (and maybe sometimes during) exercise. I can't imagine it's all that uncommon. If you do end up using a seat pad you might also want to experiment with moving the foot plates given that you'll be higher up on the machine.

In terms of HR stuff, I'd suggest a chest strap which can connect to whatever watch/band you're thinking about getting. Erging and rowing on the water doesn't make wrist bast HR monitors work all that well which sucks. Also do you know about the ErgData app from Concept2? It connects your phone to the erg and given that all of the ergs you use have PM5s (which is just the generation of monitor), you probably won't need a cable to connect your phone to it.

In terms of doing an half marathon or marathon, it's worth a try eventually. I did my first one the day after Thanksgiving and it wasn't as bad as I thought it was. It wasn't especially awful in part because I looked at it as a long steady state workout and because I was listening to an interesting audiobook the entire time. That said, I also erg on a regular basis in the late Fall/Winter and have a strong aerobic base. If I erged year round I would probably try to do one every month or two in part because it was such a good excuse to spend a solid hour and a half (or an hour and 36 min I think it was) just erging and listening to an audiobook. You should be able to find a rough training plan for half marathon and marathon ergs. Now I'm really tempted to do one next Monday...

Outside of all of that, I agree with essentially everything Ann said.

MelodiousMermaid

You two are such a valuable font of information! Will try to follow up on everything:

You're right, Ann, about the heel lifting from the footstretcher. I've been really, really gunshy on trying it, as I have big toe arthritis/bone spurs, and I'm afraid of spiking the pain levels up. I might try it a little at the beginning of next week, as it's a "rest" week (the only fitness things I intend to do are 2x lifting and daily 30 minute rowing).

I am trying to keep my back rigid, which is part of the reason I do not stretch further forward than I do. I've looked at it kind of like the hip/leg joint is the pivot point. And yes, holy abs... I would totally be intimidated by that extreme layback! I have yet to record myself doing rowing movements, but I'm not sure I even hit the "1:00" for it, as the load of the excess weight starts to multiply fairly rapidly the more I lay back, and when I tried a bit more once, my lower back started niggling (pre-warning of issues to come).

For getting away and accelerating the arms part of the drive, I'm not sure how to describe it other than I've been trying to maintain the power on the force curve display, so there's not an extra bump. Sometimes I've had a more "steep hill and short apex", but generally it's more like the top of a [small] portabella mushroom. I am probably slow on the change from finish to recovery. A good point to look at refining.

Regarding asthma/possibility, the doctor wants to refer me on to pulmonology to look at the breathing issues more. I've been dithering about this, as it's not been super critical and will likely be a notable expense. I am aware that it may be exercise induced asthma ("Dr. Google" indicates this as a likely match), and it's also aggravated by heat/humidity in the summer and chemicals (e.g. chlorine in pool). There have been times in the past (late summer, regular exercise) that I've sounded like a long-time smoker (hoarse voice and cough), and I live in a non-smoking environment.

Where I'm at with rowing reminded me of where I was (or more accurately wasn't) with running when I had tried C25k before. I could walk miles upon miles, even power walk, but moving that into jogging/running? Nope.

Yeah, I'd agree my slow-paced endurance is pretty good, especially now that I've got the stadium seat in the gym bag (really wish I'd thought of that in the beginning!). Now the primary issues are 1) increasing pace to something resembling "average" or "normal" for a non-competitive rower (the strength thing might be my biggest issue here, but hopefully I will find myself more capable as I continue to strength train, but I'm sure there will be many improvements to tweak technique too), and 2) Do you know of any solutions (other than clothing change) for seat sweat? I don't know if I just need to get better clothing, or maybe it's partially the fact that I'm between sizes, but HOLY MOLY that was a big issue today. I've been wearing cotton yoga pants. Actually everything cotton other than my shirt, which is a blend. All the sweat rolls down the nice, convenient "channel" on my back and it's like sitting on a small puddle.

As I'm sitting in my recliner, I'm trying a bit of that push-suspend idea, and I think I am understanding more now. I will need to make that an item of attention as I continue. So the shoulder blades should be back 100% of the time? That is definitely something I am not doing right now. I think I'm understanding what you're saying about shifting the peak of the force curve, and will play around with that. What a neat experience to have had!

Thanks for the feedback on the sleep aspect, even though it was a divergence. Ironically, I have odd sleep issues as well. They haven't been able to diagnose me with anything specific, but it's not sleep apnea -- my brain wakes up a bunch of times every night, but I may not actually wake up with all of them. Have this somewhat managed with medications, but it's an ongoing process. I have a really old Polar chest strap somewhere (like probably about 10 years old). Do you think that'd be worth looking for/digging out, or are the newer chest straps superior?

I'll definitely wait on a bunch more fitness before playing around with RPE and HRMax, as I have a feeling I'm going to have to take care of the breathing problem for that. The LISS/MISS HR tracking thing is something I will very much benefit from when I start to get more fit. I'm a VERY numbers-driven person. VERY.

And yes, I do know about/have the ErgData app -- started using it a while back so I can count the miles for the charity thing going on. It's also the primary reason I gravitate to the PM5 erg rowers at my gym, because I have a USB C phone and thus the connector they sell that would work with the PM3 wouldn't work for me. The wireless feature works like a charm!

I probably will try a slow HM somewhere in the not-horribly-distant future. Once I get this last clothing/sweat issue figured out, I'd probably be able to even do it at my current pace (though that would be a LONG sit at 2.24+ hours (assuming I could maintain the 3:20 pace that long). If I was completely comfortable seat-wise, watching a movie on my phone (if I got a monitor mount) or listening to music/audiobook does sound like a nice experience. I will likely be an only-erger, unless considering possible eventual sporadic canoeing/kayaking during the warm season, which I've thought about trying once I get to what I feel is a reasonable weight and level of fitness. Even then, I'd imagine I'd still erg at least 3x/week.

I think I have an idea of what I'd like to aim for regarding training now (BR's beginner training to start things off). If I get the breathing thing sorted, tabata training would also really be interesting to add into the overall mix, but I suppose that'll be for further out in the future...

Thanks once again for taking the time to share your experiences, knowledge, and insight as it's related to all this.

aokoye

MelodiousMermaid wrote: »

Where I'm at with rowing reminded me of where I was (or more accurately wasn't) with running when I had tried C25k before. I could walk miles upon miles, even power walk, but moving that into jogging/running? Nope.

Yeah, I'd agree my slow-paced endurance is pretty good, especially now that I've got the stadium seat in the gym bag (really wish I'd thought of that in the beginning!). Now the primary issues are 1) increasing pace to something resembling "average" or "normal" for a non-competitive rower (the strength thing might be my biggest issue here, but hopefully I will find myself more capable as I continue to strength train, but I'm sure there will be many improvements to tweak technique too), and 2) Do you know of any solutions (other than clothing change) for seat sweat? I don't know if I just need to get better clothing, or maybe it's partially the fact that I'm between sizes, but HOLY MOLY that was a big issue today. I've been wearing cotton yoga pants. Actually everything cotton other than my shirt, which is a blend. All the sweat rolls down the nice, convenient "channel" on my back and it's like sitting on a small puddle.
....

Thanks for the feedback on the sleep aspect, even though it was a divergence. Ironically, I have odd sleep issues as well. They haven't been able to diagnose me with anything specific, but it's not sleep apnea -- my brain wakes up a bunch of times every night, but I may not actually wake up with all of them. Have this somewhat managed with medications, but it's an ongoing process. I have a really old Polar chest strap somewhere (like probably about 10 years old). Do you think that'd be worth looking for/digging out, or are the newer chest straps superior?

Cut for length.
I think it's important in general for people to remember that fitness in one area doesn't necessarily transfer to fitness in another. There's no way I could comfortably run a 5k right now despite the fact that I erg all the time. It's a very different set of movements and I haven't ran for anything other than the bus in over a year. That's if you take out all of my orthopedic issues.

I suspect a lot of your initial speed increases will come from erging more, not from weight training. Technique is a pretty big deal (more so on the water than on an erg) and you can improve quite a lot without doing any dedicated weight training. Yes weight training is useful in general (despite my having to force myself to do it), but not doing so doesn't mean you can't or won't get considerably faster. Almost all of my gains have come from amassing more meters, and that's despite my wonky hormone issues (I'm not an endogenous testosterone producer and have a history of being very spotty about taking testosterone because large needles suck).

In terms of the sweat thing, you can try sitting on a small hand towel. I've done that multiple times because I hate sitting in a pool of sweat. What actually solved the issue was erging in rowing trou (shorts made for rowing). I still get very sweaty, but the sweat doesn't pool on the seat like it used to. I also row with people who erg in tights, but I suspect that would be too warm for me. I still bring a hand towel with me if I remember, but I use it for wiping the sweat from my face in between pieces. I know you said that you don't want clothing change solutions, but I do think not wearing cotton will be a heck of a lot more comfortable and probably prevent some potential chafing. All of that said, sweating a lot while erging is far from abnormal.

In terms of the Polar, just make sure that it can connect with the erg. It might not be able to though really, it's not the end of the world. I mainly look at it when I'm doing a UT2 and UT1 workouts. I see zero point in doing so when I'm doing an AT workout and if anything me doing so ends up working against me psychologically. It reminds me how tired I am in a way that my split does not which is not helpful.

MelodiousMermaid

Thank you for the clothing suggestion. The primary reason I was avoiding clothes is due to both being in between sizes right now and also the number of size changes (and hopefully some shape change) along the way to healthier/fit. I will keep an eye out for non-cotton solutions next time I'm in the thrift store for a size change, and definitely look forward to when I get to a good place in maintenance where I can justify the splurge on the shorts.

Funny enough, in thinking on it more, I think the seat was warmer since I had the foam on it, so that was probably contributing, but I don't want to get rid of that, so I will try the towel solution.

AnnPT77

MelodiousMermaid wrote: »

You two are such a valuable font of information! Will try to follow up on everything:

It probably says something sad about my character and/or lifestyle, but I could talk (or touch-type) about rowing all day.

You're right, Ann, about the heel lifting from the footstretcher. I've been really, really gunshy on trying it, as I have big toe arthritis/bone spurs, and I'm afraid of spiking the pain levels up. I might try it a little at the beginning of next week, as it's a "rest" week (the only fitness things I intend to do are 2x lifting and daily 30 minute rowing).

Definitely don't hurt yourself! I was thinking about it a little today while I was erging, and I really don't feel much force on the toes or arches at all, as long as the heels come down first. I don't think you'd hurt yourself with a gentle-force short trial, to see.

I am trying to keep my back rigid, which is part of the reason I do not stretch further forward than I do. I've looked at it kind of like the hip/leg joint is the pivot point. And yes, holy abs... I would totally be intimidated by that extreme layback! I have yet to record myself doing rowing movements, but I'm not sure I even hit the "1:00" for it, as the load of the excess weight starts to multiply fairly rapidly the more I lay back, and when I tried a bit more once, my lower back started niggling (pre-warning of issues to come).

Don't worry explicitly about the 11 and 1. It's just a general guideline or rule of thumb to get people started. Assuming someone is basically of normal mobility (i.e., not an adaptive rower) and without notable back problems that prevent standard technique, the problem zone is either not having any swing, or having only forward but not back swing or vice-versa**, or - for people who want ever to row boats - getting too much layback.

There are people who row machine-only who go for major layback, raise the handle upward toward the finish, and all kinds of strange things that in some cases can get a little more pace out of a machine, but that would quickly turn a rower into a swimmer.

It sounds like, if anything, you have a bit less forward/back swing than the basic rule of thumb, so I think you're OK for now just to keep it comfortable, and keep that comfortable swing in there so you can exploit those big glute muscles and their neighbors. (If you were over-swinging, I'd try to talk you out of it. I know a way to check for erg over-back-swing, but you don't need it. ).

** I know that makes no sense - like how could you swing back if you'd never swung forward (or vice versa). I can't tell you, but it's in my mind because of working with one of our club's intermediate-ish rower who seemed to do exactly that sort of thing, in her case forward swing but not much backswing. (I think she was using too much body movement to place the oars at the catch, "spending" most of the forward swing doing that, then didn't have room to swing back much at the appropriate phase. But I digress. .

Oh, and: Yes - ball joint of the hip is a pivot. I tell our learn to row class people to think about those toy birds - if you've ever seen one - that clip on the edge of a glass, then swing down to dip their beak in the water, and pop back up, on a single pivot point. It's like that. Stable back, hip pivot.

For getting away and accelerating the arms part of the drive, I'm not sure how to describe it other than I've been trying to maintain the power on the force curve display, so there's not an extra bump. Sometimes I've had a more "steep hill and short apex", but generally it's more like the top of a [small] portabella mushroom. I am probably slow on the change from finish to recovery. A good point to look at refining.

Yes, you want a smooth up-slope on the left, some kind of smooth-ish peak (round-y or maybe a little plateau-y), and a smooth downslope on the right, without "moguls" or "mini-foothills" or that sort of bump in the slopes. If there are dips in the slopes, there's a power transfer problem from legs to back, or back to arms, typically.

Some coaches seem to pursue a central peak (non-sharp/pointy), but others - including my first coach who was the most influential for me - like that peak shifted to the left. The latter has a very steep but smooth up-slope, a peak, then a more gradual slope on the right.

The quick arms-away is a trick. It's on the recovery, doesn't affect the power curve. (The slightly agressive arm-phase acceleration on the drive, if successful, should extend the slope at an ever so slightly higher level a little further toward the finish, but it's hard to even see.) The quick arms-away will even work on its own, on the erg. I messed with it today for a few strokes during my cool-down, really aggressively snapping the arms away in a ridiculous way without doing anything extra on the arm part of the drive, and got a couple or four extra pace seconds that way, at little energy cost. But exaggerating it that much would not help me in the boat, so I'm not going to make a habit of it! But a nice smooth but speedy arms away is fine, and may yield some nearly-free pace.

Regarding asthma/possibility, the doctor wants to refer me on to pulmonology to look at the breathing issues more. I've been dithering about this, as it's not been super critical and will likely be a notable expense. I am aware that it may be exercise induced asthma ("Dr. Google" indicates this as a likely match), and it's also aggravated by heat/humidity in the summer and chemicals (e.g. chlorine in pool). There have been times in the past (late summer, regular exercise) that I've sounded like a long-time smoker (hoarse voice and cough), and I live in a non-smoking environment.

High intensity may be contraindicated, until that's addressed. Be careful, at least. I get exercise-induced cough after I do indoor races (or race pace pieces), pretty much for the rest of the day. I don't even have asthsma or the like, and this is moderately common among other people, though not universal.

As another aside, something irrelevant but that really entertains me: I have an actual "Dr. Gugel", my osteopath, pronounced just like the search engine name.

Where I'm at with rowing reminded me of where I was (or more accurately wasn't) with running when I had tried C25k before. I could walk miles upon miles, even power walk, but moving that into jogging/running? Nope.

Yeah, I'd agree my slow-paced endurance is pretty good, especially now that I've got the stadium seat in the gym bag (really wish I'd thought of that in the beginning!). Now the primary issues are 1) increasing pace to something resembling "average" or "normal" for a non-competitive rower (the strength thing might be my biggest issue here, but hopefully I will find myself more capable as I continue to strength train, but I'm sure there will be many improvements to tweak technique too), and 2) Do you know of any solutions (other than clothing change) for seat sweat? I don't know if I just need to get better clothing, or maybe it's partially the fact that I'm between sizes, but HOLY MOLY that was a big issue today. I've been wearing cotton yoga pants. Actually everything cotton other than my shirt, which is a blend. All the sweat rolls down the nice, convenient "channel" on my back and it's like sitting on a small puddle.

Glad the stadium seat seems to have helped!

Strength may be the key issue, but I'd guess that - unless you've had knowledgeable coaching giving you corrections - you do still have some room for technique improvement. (We pretty much all do. ) I'm impressed with how much you've figured out, and are doing. You're well ahead of most home beginners I've met, in that regard. Videoing yourself might help; maybe take advantage of the online community at C2 to get video feedback?

Personally, I prefer to wear cotton leggings (hate how synthetics feel), and I definitely sweat. I don't get a pool of sweat, but I get sweat marks on the leggings in the crotch/seat. Since I either team erg with other rowers, or at home, I don't worry about it , but it would probably worry me at the gym, as you say. If the team's going out after erg practice, I just throw on some wind pants or something over the leggings.

As I'm sitting in my recliner, I'm trying a bit of that push-suspend idea, and I think I am understanding more now. I will need to make that an item of attention as I continue. So the shoulder blades should be back 100% of the time? That is definitely something I am not doing right now. I think I'm understanding what you're saying about shifting the peak of the force curve, and will play around with that. What a neat experience to have had!

The push-suspend requires both hands and feet, yes? Two, no, sort of three, things to try:

1. Find a door with a sturdy handle (push-rod type you can wrap fingers around, like in a lot of commercial buildings, is ideal, but a typical indoor home doorknob will work. Hold the door handle with both hands. Just stand there and pull at it with your arms/back. Then, put your feet slightly closer to the door, bend your knees a little, and push with your legs while hanging your body weight on the doorhandle (shoulderblades down and engaged). More power, yes? Maybe can feel the leg push add power to your body hang? If the door's shut tight, and latched, this will tend to pull you toward the door. If you can do it to a giant heavy unlocked door at the library or someplace that doesn't open super easily, you can actually do it with a door that opens and feel how much more readily the door opens when you suspend your weight on it vs. just pull. (Same basic thing can be done as a standing partner drill, facing each other, holding hands. Be careful not to pull your friend over. )

2. If you have a friend at the gym, have that person stand in front of the machine facing you. You sit on the seat at the catch, holding the handle in the normal way. Your friend should lean over the flywheel, bracing their body against the flywheel, and grab the handle from that side (opposite you; since your hands are near the ends of the handle, theirs are closer to its middle, and they need to hold tight/strong). Next, being rather careful not to hurt them , you keep your catch body position (arms extended, forward swing, etc.) and begin gradually applying leg pressure to the foot stretcher while hanging onto the handle. You should find that you rise off the seat . . . possibly entirely off the seat (be careful, it hurts to fall on the rail!). That's "suspending". When you're actually rowing, the force goes horizontally, not into pop-up, because the handle can move (and move the flywheel), so you don't lose the seat. But that's the "suspend" idea. It's harnessing more force than just pulling.

3. This one is more about shoulders. You don't want your shoulders popping up, ever. A common fault (one of mine!) is too use too much upper body, and let the shoulders come up to do it. What you want is to engage your lats. You want to feel things firming up in your back underarm area, your shoulderblades engaged with a slight feeling of being pulled toward each other and down your back. In your car, at the red stoplights, practice this. Sit still, hold the steering wheel with one hand on each side, keep your shoulders down, and tighten your lats. This should move your body every so slightly toward the steering wheel, and help you feel the lats. (Your shoulders don't really work much at all, except as a firm power transfer conduit, and what they actually do action-wise is during the arms phase, not during catch/legs/swing at all - those times, just solid/engaged to transfer the leg/body power to the handle.)

These things are one possible reason to temporarily increase the damper to max, just for a drill. Row very slowly, focusing on suspension and lat engagement. That little extra bit of drag can help you slow down and feel it a bit more. Maybe try it for a couple of minutes as part of your warm-up, after doing some of the "feel your lats" experiments.

Thanks for the feedback on the sleep aspect, even though it was a divergence. Ironically, I have odd sleep issues as well. They haven't been able to diagnose me with anything specific, but it's not sleep apnea -- my brain wakes up a bunch of times every night, but I may not actually wake up with all of them. Have this somewhat managed with medications, but it's an ongoing process. I have a really old Polar chest strap somewhere (like probably about 10 years old). Do you think that'd be worth looking for/digging out, or are the newer chest straps superior?

It's a question of how old the Polar is, or really what protocols it supports. The old Polars transmitted on some proprietary Polar protocol (I forget its name). I'm not sure what protocol(s) the Garmin VA series supports, but they're focusing on cross-vendor protocols. My chest belt transmits Ant+, I believe. Some gym machines (like the monitors at my spin class) pick it up, too.

I'll definitely wait on a bunch more fitness before playing around with RPE and HRMax, as I have a feeling I'm going to have to take care of the breathing problem for that. The LISS/MISS HR tracking thing is something I will very much benefit from when I start to get more fit. I'm a VERY numbers-driven person. VERY.

You will like using a heart rate monitor, even an old one, then. Even without a true HRmax number, the HR can be part of feedback (used along with spm and split) to understand technique and fitness improvements. The lower the HR "cost" of any given split, the better, right? That can happen through fitness (lower HR for same power output) or technique (better efficiency is faster split at same HR, potentially).

And yes, I do know about/have the ErgData app -- started using it a while back so I can count the miles for the charity thing going on. It's also the primary reason I gravitate to the PM5 erg rowers at my gym, because I have a USB C phone and thus the connector they sell that would work with the PM3 wouldn't work for me. The wireless feature works like a charm!

I probably will try a slow HM somewhere in the not-horribly-distant future. Once I get this last clothing/sweat issue figured out, I'd probably be able to even do it at my current pace (though that would be a LONG sit at 2.24+ hours (assuming I could maintain the 3:20 pace that long). If I was completely comfortable seat-wise, watching a movie on my phone (if I got a monitor mount) or listening to music/audiobook does sound like a nice experience. I will likely be an only-erger, unless considering possible eventual sporadic canoeing/kayaking during the warm season, which I've thought about trying once I get to what I feel is a reasonable weight and level of fitness. Even then, I'd imagine I'd still erg at least 3x/week.

People vary in this regard, but I find it difficult to watch movies or TV, and still pay enough attention to technique, while rowing. The year I got way behind in the Holiday challenge and had to do a couple of 20k days, I caved and watched a movie, otherwise I do podcasts, NPR, or music, which somehow don't have the same effect on me. YMMV!

Canoeing/kayaking is great. I have canoes/kayak in addition to rowing shells (some women collect shoes; I'm a li'l ol' lady with a boat problem . . . !). I pretty much love any human-powered boat, although those paddle-wheel thingies with bicycle pedals require an umbrella drink to go with them, in my world.

I think I have an idea of what I'd like to aim for regarding training now (BR's beginner training to start things off). If I get the breathing thing sorted, tabata training would also really be interesting to add into the overall mix, but I suppose that'll be for further out in the future...

Thanks once again for taking the time to share your experiences, knowledge, and insight as it's related to all this.

Have fun! :flowerforyou:

MelodiousMermaid

Still kind of digesting the post you gave me, Ann, but wanted to chime in.

The towel idea @aokoye had was a winner for at least getting me through for now. I still have some mild discomfort on longer rows (starts in the later part of the hour), but it is nowhere near the horrid discomfort bordering pain from the wet friction I had that first day with the stadium seat. Stadium seat + hand towel, and I'm good to go.

Also, the harder start to jump the curve earlier? That's a total winner, which has allowed me to average 3:30 for a long row now. However, it has exacerbated the issues with my hands, so that'll be an on-and-off thing until my hands are set for calluses. Or I might try golf gloves, but even lifting gloves make my hands warmer.

Also, the faster transition to recovery from the finish has tightened my rowing strokes such that my "lighter pace" (when I'm trying not to push my legs too hard) is at 28-30 strokes now, yet manageable at the push level I do for faster rowing.

Between the two, and possibly other improvements as I can manage to catch/integrate them, I might just be flirting with 3:00 much sooner than I thought!

AnnPT77

MelodiousMermaid wrote: »

Still kind of digesting the post you gave me, Ann, but wanted to chime in.

The towel idea @aokoye had was a winner for at least getting me through for now. I still have some mild discomfort on longer rows (starts in the later part of the hour), but it is nowhere near the horrid discomfort bordering pain from the wet friction I had that first day with the stadium seat. Stadium seat + hand towel, and I'm good to go.

Yay!

Also, the harder start to jump the curve earlier? That's a total winner, which has allowed me to average 3:30 for a long row now. However, it has exacerbated the issues with my hands, so that'll be an on-and-off thing until my hands are set for calluses. Or I might try golf gloves, but even lifting gloves make my hands warmer.

Glad to hear you've found some pace improvement! Usually, technique improvement can create really big pace improvements, early on when learning about it. (There are so freakin' many details . . . !) And it's a great plan to focus more on finding and integrating those technique improvements, and less on the pace per se, early on: Bad habits in muscle memory are hard to break. Thinking most about pace (vs. technique) can lead to some over-muscling dysfunctional kinds of stuff.

I feel like gloves should not be necessary, on the erg. I hope you're hooking the handle with just the first couple knuckles' worth of your fingers, not actually gripping it tightly? Keeping the chain level on the drive and recovery, and the handle still relative to hands (no rotation or whatever)?

Gloves on the erg won't interfere with anything, so it's OK to use them, but if you ever hope to transition to water, I'd avoid relying on them: They interfere with feeling the water through the handle. Even when it's cold, we wear "pogies" that go around both hand and handle, so your bare hand is still on the handle, just warm inside a sort of cocoon.

Also, the faster transition to recovery from the finish has tightened my rowing strokes so much that my "lighter pace" (when I'm trying not to push my legs too hard) is at 28-30 strokes now, yet manageable at the push level I do for faster rowing.

I'd make an effort to keep the rating down (mid/low 20s and below), even so. It's possible to do the arms away pretty fast, and the body swing moderately so, but relax into the slide part of the recovery so the machine does the work (rail is slanted). It may give the overall stroke a different rhythmic feel . . . maybe kind of syncopated? I think you'll find this preserves a surprising amount of the pace improvement, but is easier, and it gives you more time to think about technique during training rows. Good rowing is more about really good strokes, first, not about spm.

One of my favorite things to show people who think rowing speed is about a fast spm rating is a YouTube video of a teenage Sofia Asoumanaki breaking the U18 world indoor 2k record (1:37.0 pace), most of the piece very strong and technically beautiful strokes that look to be in the 20s.

For training (not race pace), we usually shoot for an even-spaced count: "In" (the catch), "out" (the finish), "three"(approximately the end of body over), "four" (rest of slide up to next catch). The drive speed sets the timing (in & out, which would be blade in & out of the water), and the intervals between the other counts are that same length (including the one between "four" and "in".)

Between the two, and possibly other improvements as I can manage to catch/integrate them, I might just be flirting with 3:00 much sooner than I thought!

I'm pretty sure you will be.

To get faster, focus on technical improvement, keep watching videos, watch yourself in the mirror if there's one nearby in the gym, take some video & get feedback from experts, etc. With rowing, much of the improvement is about technique, and strength/conditioning just build on top of that to make a difference between fairly fast and really fast. It's kind of a weird sport that way.

You'll surprise yourself. :flowerforyou: