Starvation Mode - Adaptive Thermogenesis and Weight Loss

MityMax96 · October 2013

Sorry I am being lazy,
But EvgeniZyntx, can you give the cliff notes on your view/position?

EvgeniZyntx · October 2013

I'd say these are the cliff notes

And in Practice?

1) Weight loss reduces TDEE in a way that is goes 10%-15% beyond what is expected from LBM. In order to combat this, it is either essential to maximize LBM during the weight loss process or one is likelier to struggle with that reduced calorie allowance.
2) Reevaluate working TDEE not from the equations but what you experience from tracking.
3) Take diet breaks and go to maintenance with the most calories that do not result in a weight gain when needed to reduce or recover the effect of adaptation. These diet breaks can be extensive (And this creates a logical framework for me for the Eat More to Loss process – if eating more “resets” the metabolism, then a loss will occur at what was maintenance)
4) Yes, there are factors that help create so-called plateaus (periods of no loss) by increasing hunger, decrease energy expenditure and affecting various physiological functions: Understanding them and how exercise and diet interact will help in defining personal strategies for successful weight loss - whether you choose to wait them out, cut calories, measure better or exercise more.
5) Success is measured in years, plan for it and adjust.

Finally, another bit of speculation - one of the reasons the bulk and cut cycles work so well beyond developing LBM, is that the refeed period of a bulk creates an efffecive diet break allowing for restabilization of hormonal and the other factors discussed...

MityMax96 · October 2013

1) I would agree....that is why I encourage people to lift weights when they are trying to lose weight....
If not, they will want to revisit their caloric needs ~60 days, maybe sooner.

2) I agree with the tracking aspect....but the equations can give you a ball park figure in which to work with.

3) I agree with this also.....I think leptin comes to mind, as well as other hormonal issues. Prolly most apparent in women.

4) I remember reading an article, about a trainer who charted one of his clients weight loss over a long period of time.....and in the graph, the overall trend was downward, but there were times, where the client appeared to "plateau"....if I recall, I think at those times the trainer would have the client eat a bit more food....i.e. a refeed. Then get back with the diet plan, and the downward progression would begin again.

5) Yep, the process is definitely a marathon, not a sprint.

I could go with the bulk/cut angle....some what.
I don't necessarily think it a "healthy" or proper choice for most people though....
reason being those bodybuilders are doing some pretty extreme stuff to get cut for a competition.
As you said in point 5, a paced and planned approach is better.

heybales · October 2013

4) I remember reading an article, about a trainer who charted one of his clients weight loss over a long period of time.....and in the graph, the overall trend was downward, but there were times, where the client appeared to "plateau"....if I recall, I think at those times the trainer would have the client eat a bit more food....i.e. a refeed. Then get back with the diet plan, and the downward progression would begin again.

I could go with the bulk/cut angle....some what.
I don't necessarily think it a "healthy" or proper choice for most people though....
reason being those bodybuilders are doing some pretty extreme stuff to get cut for a competition.
As you said in point 5, a paced and planned approach is better.

I think it's sadly one of those hindsight things.

Like that client with long progress chart. If they could have known at the beginning what the average deficit really ended up being over the entire time, including the plateaus and the eat more times, and they made the diet actually match that from the start, with bigger deficit up front of course to little at the end, would the deficit have been small enough those times of long plateaus and needing to eat more would have been eliminated?

I think that's where it depends on genetics and abuse to the body over the years, and current abuse too really, like what type and frequency of exercise, food sensitivities, disease or sickness, ect. Basically everyone is different.

Like the folks that hit a 3 month plateau, finally take the recommendation to eat more, eat a mere 200 calories more, and start losing again within the week.
Others do that same thing for weeks at a time and never start losing, or make it even bigger and then take a deficit and loss stops.

It sounds like the recovery phase of the cut/bulk cycle is good idea at least, otherwise called a diet break. But if a lot to lose, no need to try to bulk yet.

Erikaelias85 · October 2013

Will need to read this later. lol

MityMax96 · October 2013

I think it's sadly one of those hindsight things.

Like that client with long progress chart. If they could have known at the beginning what the average deficit really ended up being over the entire time, including the plateaus and the eat more times, and they made the diet actually match that from the start, with bigger deficit up front of course to little at the end, would the deficit have been small enough those times of long plateaus and needing to eat more would have been eliminated?

I think that's where it depends on genetics and abuse to the body over the years, and current abuse too really, like what type and frequency of exercise, food sensitivities, disease or sickness, ect. Basically everyone is different.

Like the folks that hit a 3 month plateau, finally take the recommendation to eat more, eat a mere 200 calories more, and start losing again within the week.
Others do that same thing for weeks at a time and never start losing, or make it even bigger and then take a deficit and loss stops.

It sounds like the recovery phase of the cut/bulk cycle is good idea at least, otherwise called a diet break. But if a lot to lose, no need to try to bulk yet.

I will say this, and for me personally.
By doing some reading and educating my self on diet and nutrition in the past 3 months (I have always been interested in it).....I feel I am understanding more regarding diet and exercise.

From Jan 14th - Aug 5th of this year, I was consuming 2300 - 2500 calories / day.....mostly in protein.
Fat and Carbs were low.
In 8 months, I went from ~193 -> 182

On Aug. 6th, I started doing LeanGains style Intermittent Fasting.....after having done some reading.....
Because I wanted to give it a shot....I spent the previous 8 months frustrated that I could not get the lower abs and lower back to burn off the fat.....when I thought I was doing all the right things.

But starting LGs, my workout day calories are >3000 calories.
My rest days are ~2500 calories.
My carb intake and fat intake are up.....carbs ~300 - 450 gr on workout days.

I weighed myself on Oct. 6th (2 months in), I weighed in at 174
Now I am hoping and my thinking is that it is fat being burnt off.....
Because I am lifting where I was before, if not more.

And the things I have done was:
1) Shift when I eat.
2) Eat more
3) Kick @$$ when in the gym

Mr_Knight · October 2013

And the things I have done was:
1) Shift when I eat.
2) Eat more
3) Kick @$$ when in the gym

Similar story here. I needed to eat more to support the higher activity level I wanted. Went from no-carb to 300g/day carb. Ironically, my deficits actually got bigger, even though I was eating more than 50% more than before, because my activity level is approaching "off the hook" status, by typical MFP standards.

Nicgianni1 · October 2013

That is great research. I did not know that. It is funny because I learned how to eat better and those things that you described happened without my knowledge. Thank you..

MyChocolateDiet · October 2013

I was just gonna say ALL that!

drencoronado · October 2013

Bump

areksz · October 2013

Personally, I eat enough but good carbs (mix black and brown rice, avoid bread) usually with chicken or fish and lots of veggies with some fruit such as granny smith apples or green pears. Also, I exercise only 90 minutes a week but it's actually more effective than doing long, boring cardio workouts. You can find more info here: htttp://www.NoMoreCardio.com