Bony to Beastly... A Scam?
Replies
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I have to say that I am positively impressed with @ShaneDuquette 's explanation of his program and of the fact that his material has evolved over time.
People do change their view points as they learn. And that's good. I once believed, for about 4 hours, that Scooby's site was full of bro-science. And while Scooby may be a bro (in a good way); his site is way closer to science than bro science!
So I am glad to hear that your site is evolving even if all the material has yet to be updated to reflect your current views.
That said, when I see a shake and a somatotype (or equivalent info) on page one of a site, I personally choose to move on.
As per your testimony, it appears that doing so is sometimes at my loss! But there is only so much time, and some of the baby does get dumped out together with the bathwater!
Since you appear to be curious, I was partially thinking of rp, but their offerings are substantially more expensive than yours.
That said I would be remiss not to mention that @psuLemon on this site has written a couple of excellent "sticky" posts directly addressing both "hard-gainers" and "programming".
The OP, in previous conversations, appears to have just stuck to 5x5 and to have over-done his surplus. Both of these could be addressed if that's what he wanted.
That said, there is NOTHING wrong with purchasing qualified advice if one can afford to do so and in aid to one's reasonable goals.
I am glad that in spite of my concerns about your offerings based on the initial read of your site, your "in person" discourse offers the likelihood that your actual offering will exceed the expectations established by that first read!
Thank you, Pav8888!
Ahaha, yeah, Scooby seems like a genuinely good guy who really does want to help people
Sweet style, too.2 -
What was your macro breakdown over the whole time period, not just an occasional day?
How many grams per lb of protein were you eating? Total grams of carbs?
How did you conclude that most of your gain was body fat?
Yeah, I hear ya. Even just a weird distribution of the calorie surplus might do it. Big difference between gaining 0.5 pounds per week for a month versus gaining 0 pounds for three weeks and then two pounds in one week, even though both add up to two pounds gained per month.2 -
asianambition wrote: »I have to say that I am positively impressed with @ShaneDuquette 's explanation of his program and of the fact that his material has evolved over time.
People do change their view points as they learn. And that's good. I once believed, for about 4 hours, that Scooby's site was full of bro-science. And while Scooby may be a bro (in a good way); his site is way closer to science than bro science!
So I am glad to hear that your site is evolving even if all the material has yet to be updated to reflect your current views.
That said, when I see a shake and a somatotype (or equivalent info) on page one of a site, I personally choose to move on.
As per your testimony, it appears that doing so is sometimes at my loss! But there is only so much time, and some of the baby does get dumped out together with the bathwater!
Since you appear to be curious, I was partially thinking of rp, but their offerings are substantially more expensive than yours.
That said I would be remiss not to mention that @psuLemon on this site has written a couple of excellent "sticky" posts directly addressing both "hard-gainers" and "programming".
The OP, in previous conversations, appears to have just stuck to 5x5 and to have over-done his surplus. Both of these could be addressed if that's what he wanted.
That said, there is NOTHING wrong with purchasing qualified advice if one can afford to do so and in aid to one's reasonable goals.
I am glad that in spite of my concerns about your offerings based on the initial read of your site, your "in person" discourse offers the likelihood that your actual offering will exceed the expectations established by that first read!
I only gained 7 lbs in 6 months of doing 5x5, most of it body fat, so I definitely didn't overdo my surplus. I think where I went wrong was consuming too much fat. Like I'm reading Shane's e-book right now and he says that fat is more likely than carbs to be stored as body fat, so you shouldn't exceed 30% fat a day. However, there were some days where I was eating close to 45% in fat (despite consuming enough protein).
Eating fat has nothing to do with gaining too much fat. You can bulk with 60% of your calories from fat and not become a blob. If anything drove poor gains, it was lack of nutritious foods but more likely, the programming that you chose. A 5x5 program is a beginner program designed for strength, not hypertrophy. It barely crosses the hypertrophy threshold in terms of overall volume. There is also a question of intensity that comes into play as well. So like I recommended in your other threads, choose a program that will driven hypertrophy, drives enough metabolic stress and you train with sufficient intensity.3 -
Eating fat has nothing to do with gaining too much fat. You can bulk with 60% of your calories from fat and not become a blob. If anything drove poor gains, it was lack of nutritious foods but more likely, the programming that you chose. A 5x5 program is a beginner program designed for strength, not hypertrophy. It barely crosses the hypertrophy threshold in terms of overall volume. There is also a question of intensity that comes into play as well. So like I recommended in your other threads, choose a program that will driven hypertrophy, drives enough metabolic stress and you train with sufficient intensity.
I think you're going against the evidence on this one.
Here's one of the recent systematic reviews on macronutrients for gaining muscle:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6680710/
"Sufficient protein (1.6–2.2 g/kg/day) should be consumed with optimal amounts 0.40–0.55 g/kg per meal and distributed evenly throughout the day (3–6 meals) including within 1–2 hours pre- and post-training. Fat should be consumed in moderate amounts (0.5–1.5 g/kg/day). Remaining calories should come from carbohydrates with focus on consuming sufficient amounts (≥3–5 g/kg/day) to support energy demands from resistance exercise."
To quote the lead author on the paper, Eric Helms, PhD, about the ideal fat intake while bulking: "For most people I recommend 20–30% of total calories, but if you prefer higher fat intakes and lower carbs or have good data to show this works better for you, you can go up to 40%."
Is that the most important factor for building muscle? No. But it's still a factor.1 -
Eating fat has nothing to do with gaining too much fat. You can bulk with 60% of your calories from fat and not become a blob. If anything drove poor gains, it was lack of nutritious foods but more likely, the programming that you chose. A 5x5 program is a beginner program designed for strength, not hypertrophy. It barely crosses the hypertrophy threshold in terms of overall volume. There is also a question of intensity that comes into play as well. So like I recommended in your other threads, choose a program that will driven hypertrophy, drives enough metabolic stress and you train with sufficient intensity.
Totally agree with you on StrongLifts, by the way. It's not a hypertrophy program.2 -
@ShaneDuquette wanted to say thanks for popping in and clarifying. I will be honest I did not click the link OP posted to your site but was responding to the OP's comment about gaining a lot in a short period of time, many people come in here thinking they can work for a few months and be 20lbs+ heavier all muscle and there are programs out there that falsely promise that. Hopefully he has much success with your program!
To be honest I have spent a lot of money on fitness books, programs and equipment (all from the same person) ... way more than $200 worth, no direct coaching or anything.2 -
ShaneDuquette wrote: »Eating fat has nothing to do with gaining too much fat. You can bulk with 60% of your calories from fat and not become a blob. If anything drove poor gains, it was lack of nutritious foods but more likely, the programming that you chose. A 5x5 program is a beginner program designed for strength, not hypertrophy. It barely crosses the hypertrophy threshold in terms of overall volume. There is also a question of intensity that comes into play as well. So like I recommended in your other threads, choose a program that will driven hypertrophy, drives enough metabolic stress and you train with sufficient intensity.
I think you're going against the evidence on this one.
Here's one of the recent systematic reviews on macronutrients for gaining muscle:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6680710/
"Sufficient protein (1.6–2.2 g/kg/day) should be consumed with optimal amounts 0.40–0.55 g/kg per meal and distributed evenly throughout the day (3–6 meals) including within 1–2 hours pre- and post-training. Fat should be consumed in moderate amounts (0.5–1.5 g/kg/day). Remaining calories should come from carbohydrates with focus on consuming sufficient amounts (≥3–5 g/kg/day) to support energy demands from resistance exercise."
To quote the lead author on the paper, Eric Helms, PhD, about the ideal fat intake while bulking: "For most people I recommend 20–30% of total calories, but if you prefer higher fat intakes and lower carbs or have good data to show this works better for you, you can go up to 40%."
Is that the most important factor for building muscle? No. But it's still a factor.
Love Eric Helms, but you have to understand there is also a limitation of data. There is zero evidence on bodybuilding/mass building as it relates to ketogenic or low carb diets. Dr. Helms recognizes that. Currently, the only evidence we have on low carb diet is weight loss and endurance athletes (runners/cyclist). We also don't have data on carb threshold (meals or total) in what is optimal for muscle building. Where we do have data is protein. It's why I spread my protein across 3 meals and aim for 25-40g per meal and often focus on higher quality proteins like meats, fish and eggs to maximize MPS.
In the context of the OP, he was focusing on junk food (high fat, high carb, and salty). He wasn't really focusing on nutrient dense foods. As I advised in his other thread about fat, was focus on higher quality foods and get a better lifting program. If the OP still eats crap low fat food and follows a program not beneficial to hypertrophy, he still will not get the results he desires. There are a lot of variables and trying to pinpoint a single one, when it's more multifaceted is the issue.
Side note, I ran my Keto numbers against the fat Dr. Helms recommends and at 1.5g/kg, I hit the top range.2 -
@ShaneDuquette wanted to say thanks for popping in and clarifying. I will be honest I did not click the link OP posted to your site but was responding to the OP's comment about gaining a lot in a short period of time, many people come in here thinking they can work for a few months and be 20lbs+ heavier all muscle and there are programs out there that falsely promise that. Hopefully he has much success with your program!
I think for a lot of skinny guys, it's realistic to gain a lot of muscle in a short period of time. Gaining 20+ pounds in a few months with no visible fat gain is something I've done myself, watched my roommate do, and it's something I've seen hundreds (if not thousands) of people do over the years.
But you're right. It depends on the person, the circumstances, the program. Not everyone can do it. It really depends. Mind you, we do fully guarantee our results and have an unconditional refund policy. If someone feels like we've exaggerated or improperly advertised, they can always, always get their money back.
Me too! I know the fitness industry has its shady parts, but there are some people producing really great content.To be honest I have spent a lot of money on fitness books, programs and equipment (all from the same person) ... way more than $200 worth, no direct coaching or anything.1 -
Love Eric Helms, but you have to understand there is also a limitation of data. There is zero evidence on bodybuilding/mass building as it relates to ketogenic or low carb diets. Dr. Helms recognizes that. Currently, the only evidence we have on low carb diet is weight loss and endurance athletes (runners/cyclist). We also don't have data on carb threshold (meals or total) in what is optimal for muscle building. Where we do have data is protein. It's why I spread my protein across 3 meals and aim for 25-40g per meal and often focus on higher quality proteins like meats, fish and eggs to maximize MPS.
In the context of the OP, he was focusing on junk food (high fat, high carb, and salty). He wasn't really focusing on nutrient dense foods. As I advised in his other thread about fat, was focus on higher quality foods and get a better lifting program. If the OP still eats crap low fat food and follows a program not beneficial to hypertrophy, he still will not get the results he desires. There are a lot of variables and trying to pinpoint a single one, when it's more multifaceted is the issue.
We have some data on keto bulking. Not much, but some.
The main "benefit" of a ketogenic diet is that it suppresses appetite in most people. Is that a problem for most people? No. Most people are trying to lose weight. So that's great. But our specialty is helping naturally skinny guys bulk up, so that's a good reason to avoid ketogenic diets when possible.
For instance, consider this study: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29986720
Because the keto participants weren't able to get out of a calorie deficit, they wound up losing 0.7 pounds of muscle by the end of the study. That loss of lean mass may just have been glycogen, but even so, that's not an ideal outcome. During that same timeframe, the high-carb group gained 3 pounds of lean mass.
Dr Brad Schoenfeld conducted a follow-up study and confirmed those findings, saying “when considering this study in context with the body of literature, a general take-home would be that the keto diet is a viable strategy for losing body fat, but would not be ideal if your goals are to maximize strength and hypertrophy.”
https://jissn.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12970-020-00348-7
All of the experts I consulted, including Brad Dieter, PhD, who reviewed that article, said that it seems like bulking on a ketogenic diet, at very best, is neutral. But so far the evidence points to it being worse. And again, it makes it much harder to get into a calorie surplus, which tends to be the hardest part of bulking up for us naturally skinny people.
Now, I'm not arguing that it's impossible to bulk on a ketogenic diet. I'm not even arguing that it's bad to bulk on a ketogenic diet. We've helped a bunch of guys build muscle while doing keto. Like you said, there are many factors to consider. This is just one of them. But we do have research favouring bulking on higher-carb diets.3 -
ShaneDuquette wrote: »Love Eric Helms, but you have to understand there is also a limitation of data. There is zero evidence on bodybuilding/mass building as it relates to ketogenic or low carb diets. Dr. Helms recognizes that. Currently, the only evidence we have on low carb diet is weight loss and endurance athletes (runners/cyclist). We also don't have data on carb threshold (meals or total) in what is optimal for muscle building. Where we do have data is protein. It's why I spread my protein across 3 meals and aim for 25-40g per meal and often focus on higher quality proteins like meats, fish and eggs to maximize MPS.
In the context of the OP, he was focusing on junk food (high fat, high carb, and salty). He wasn't really focusing on nutrient dense foods. As I advised in his other thread about fat, was focus on higher quality foods and get a better lifting program. If the OP still eats crap low fat food and follows a program not beneficial to hypertrophy, he still will not get the results he desires. There are a lot of variables and trying to pinpoint a single one, when it's more multifaceted is the issue.
We have some data on keto bulking. Not much, but some.
The main "benefit" of a ketogenic diet is that it suppresses appetite in most people. Is that a problem for most people? No. Most people are trying to lose weight. So that's great. But our specialty is helping naturally skinny guys bulk up, so that's a good reason to avoid ketogenic diets when possible.
For instance, consider this study: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29986720
Because the keto participants weren't able to get out of a calorie deficit, they wound up losing 0.7 pounds of muscle by the end of the study. That loss of lean mass may just have been glycogen, but even so, that's not an ideal outcome. During that same timeframe, the high-carb group gained 3 pounds of lean mass.
Dr Brad Schoenfeld conducted a follow-up study and confirmed those findings, saying “when considering this study in context with the body of literature, a general take-home would be that the keto diet is a viable strategy for losing body fat, but would not be ideal if your goals are to maximize strength and hypertrophy.”
https://jissn.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12970-020-00348-7
All of the experts I consulted, including Brad Dieter, PhD, who reviewed that article, said that it seems like bulking on a ketogenic diet, at very best, is neutral. But so far the evidence points to it being worse. And again, it makes it much harder to get into a calorie surplus, which tends to be the hardest part of bulking up for us naturally skinny people.
Now, I'm not arguing that it's impossible to bulk on a ketogenic diet. I'm not even arguing that it's bad to bulk on a ketogenic diet. We've helped a bunch of guys build muscle while doing keto. Like you said, there are many factors to consider. This is just one of them. But we do have research favouring bulking on higher-carb diets.
Do me a favor and don't link articles to your site, that would be advertising.
Also, i would, in all intents and purposes, suggest that Keto bulks might be suboptimal. There are things like TKD/CKD that might help, but again, little to not data.
Next, i did remember that study on Keto vs traditional. And the appetite suppression did impact their ability. Having said that, if you can overcome that issue, its a non issue. For cutting, Keto has been very good to me, albeit, i may be a bit more low carb since its summer and i want more fruit. For my bulk, i may run TKD as an experiment and will run PHAT or BEAXST (AthleanX). But we will see for TKD, because i do find it difficult at times to keep my calories high on Keto.
Having said all that, it doesn't really apply to the OP. He was at like 30% fat.2 -
Do me a favor and don't link articles to your site, that would be advertising.
Also, i would, in all intents and purposes, suggest that Keto bulks might be suboptimal. There are things like TKD/CKD that might help, but again, little to not data.
Next, i did remember that study on Keto vs traditional. And the appetite suppression did impact their ability. Having said that, if you can overcome that issue, its a non issue. For cutting, Keto has been very good to me, albeit, i may be a bit more low carb since its summer and i want more fruit. For my bulk, i may run TKD as an experiment and will run PHAT or BEAXST (AthleanX). But we will see for TKD, because i do find it difficult at times to keep my calories high on Keto.
Having said all that, it doesn't really apply to the OP. He was at like 30% fat.
I'm sorry, psuLemon. I'm new here. I didn't know the etiquette. Now I do.1 -
ShaneDuquette wrote: »
Do me a favor and don't link articles to your site, that would be advertising.
Also, i would, in all intents and purposes, suggest that Keto bulks might be suboptimal. There are things like TKD/CKD that might help, but again, little to not data.
Next, i did remember that study on Keto vs traditional. And the appetite suppression did impact their ability. Having said that, if you can overcome that issue, its a non issue. For cutting, Keto has been very good to me, albeit, i may be a bit more low carb since its summer and i want more fruit. For my bulk, i may run TKD as an experiment and will run PHAT or BEAXST (AthleanX). But we will see for TKD, because i do find it difficult at times to keep my calories high on Keto.
Having said all that, it doesn't really apply to the OP. He was at like 30% fat.
I'm sorry, psuLemon. I'm new here. I didn't know the etiquette. Now I do.
No worries.0 -
ShaneDuquette wrote: »
Do me a favor and don't link articles to your site, that would be advertising.
Also, i would, in all intents and purposes, suggest that Keto bulks might be suboptimal. There are things like TKD/CKD that might help, but again, little to not data.
Next, i did remember that study on Keto vs traditional. And the appetite suppression did impact their ability. Having said that, if you can overcome that issue, its a non issue. For cutting, Keto has been very good to me, albeit, i may be a bit more low carb since its summer and i want more fruit. For my bulk, i may run TKD as an experiment and will run PHAT or BEAXST (AthleanX). But we will see for TKD, because i do find it difficult at times to keep my calories high on Keto.
Having said all that, it doesn't really apply to the OP. He was at like 30% fat.
I'm sorry, psuLemon. I'm new here. I didn't know the etiquette. Now I do.
No worries.
Also, I suspect I am the only person using Keto (CKD specifically) on this forum that have a lot of knowledge relating to bodybuilding getting lean. Ironically, I used to be against it (if you look at my post from several years ago) because data didn't support there being benefits. I do think a lot of that was driven based on limited data sets and/or study designs focused on bodybuilding. And it's even more difficult to draw conclusions as most of the famous Youtubers that are big, didn't get there on Keto but rather built their physique with bro-diets and transitioned to Keto. Also, a lot of the utilization of this diet in bodybuilders was for cutting.
Regardless, there is a point (right or wrong) that the individual response has to be more important (to that individual) than the data. That is what got me here. I tried for years (like 3-4) to get abs just doing flexible dieting and calorie counting. After failing for years, even while training hard, I said screw it and I went with keto. First time was a fail. Second time has been amazing. I am leaner now than I have been in 20 years. When I flex, I can see a 6 pack, and unflexed I can see the beginnings. And I still have a "good" amount of lower ab fat. Hoping another 5 lbs will solve that. My compliance is exponentially better than it was while doing Flexible dieting. So overall, Keto has been a game changer for me in getting real lean. Flexibile dieting did help me lose 50 lbs a decade ago but I maxed out at 173 lbs. With keto, I have gotten to 164 and continuing to make progress.1 -
ShaneDuquette wrote: »
Do me a favor and don't link articles to your site, that would be advertising.
Also, i would, in all intents and purposes, suggest that Keto bulks might be suboptimal. There are things like TKD/CKD that might help, but again, little to not data.
Next, i did remember that study on Keto vs traditional. And the appetite suppression did impact their ability. Having said that, if you can overcome that issue, its a non issue. For cutting, Keto has been very good to me, albeit, i may be a bit more low carb since its summer and i want more fruit. For my bulk, i may run TKD as an experiment and will run PHAT or BEAXST (AthleanX). But we will see for TKD, because i do find it difficult at times to keep my calories high on Keto.
Having said all that, it doesn't really apply to the OP. He was at like 30% fat.
I'm sorry, psuLemon. I'm new here. I didn't know the etiquette. Now I do.
No worries.
Also, I suspect I am the only person using Keto (CKD specifically) on this forum that have a lot of knowledge relating to bodybuilding getting lean. Ironically, I used to be against it (if you look at my post from several years ago) because data didn't support there being benefits. I do think a lot of that was driven based on limited data sets and/or study designs focused on bodybuilding. And it's even more difficult to draw conclusions as most of the famous Youtubers that are big, didn't get there on Keto but rather built their physique with bro-diets and transitioned to Keto. Also, a lot of the utilization of this diet in bodybuilders was for cutting.
Regardless, there is a point (right or wrong) that the individual response has to be more important (to that individual) than the data. That is what got me here. I tried for years (like 3-4) to get abs just doing flexible dieting and calorie counting. After failing for years, even while training hard, I said screw it and I went with keto. First time was a fail. Second time has been amazing. I am leaner now than I have been in 20 years. When I flex, I can see a 6 pack, and unflexed I can see the beginnings. And I still have a "good" amount of lower ab fat. Hoping another 5 lbs will solve that. My compliance is exponentially better than it was while doing Flexible dieting. So overall, Keto has been a game changer for me in getting real lean. Flexibile dieting did help me lose 50 lbs a decade ago but I maxed out at 173 lbs. With keto, I have gotten to 164 and continuing to make progress.
I hear ya. And I'm not knocking keto by any means. It's just for our audience of naturally skinny people who are trying to bulk up, it tends to make things harder.
For cutting, I think it's a really interesting option and the appetite suppression effects could be a total gamechanger. Mind you, for us naturally skinny guys, cutting tends to be pretty easy. So again, you're right, yeah, it comes down to the individual.1 -
ShaneDuquette wrote: »ShaneDuquette wrote: »
Do me a favor and don't link articles to your site, that would be advertising.
Also, i would, in all intents and purposes, suggest that Keto bulks might be suboptimal. There are things like TKD/CKD that might help, but again, little to not data.
Next, i did remember that study on Keto vs traditional. And the appetite suppression did impact their ability. Having said that, if you can overcome that issue, its a non issue. For cutting, Keto has been very good to me, albeit, i may be a bit more low carb since its summer and i want more fruit. For my bulk, i may run TKD as an experiment and will run PHAT or BEAXST (AthleanX). But we will see for TKD, because i do find it difficult at times to keep my calories high on Keto.
Having said all that, it doesn't really apply to the OP. He was at like 30% fat.
I'm sorry, psuLemon. I'm new here. I didn't know the etiquette. Now I do.
No worries.
Also, I suspect I am the only person using Keto (CKD specifically) on this forum that have a lot of knowledge relating to bodybuilding getting lean. Ironically, I used to be against it (if you look at my post from several years ago) because data didn't support there being benefits. I do think a lot of that was driven based on limited data sets and/or study designs focused on bodybuilding. And it's even more difficult to draw conclusions as most of the famous Youtubers that are big, didn't get there on Keto but rather built their physique with bro-diets and transitioned to Keto. Also, a lot of the utilization of this diet in bodybuilders was for cutting.
Regardless, there is a point (right or wrong) that the individual response has to be more important (to that individual) than the data. That is what got me here. I tried for years (like 3-4) to get abs just doing flexible dieting and calorie counting. After failing for years, even while training hard, I said screw it and I went with keto. First time was a fail. Second time has been amazing. I am leaner now than I have been in 20 years. When I flex, I can see a 6 pack, and unflexed I can see the beginnings. And I still have a "good" amount of lower ab fat. Hoping another 5 lbs will solve that. My compliance is exponentially better than it was while doing Flexible dieting. So overall, Keto has been a game changer for me in getting real lean. Flexibile dieting did help me lose 50 lbs a decade ago but I maxed out at 173 lbs. With keto, I have gotten to 164 and continuing to make progress.
I hear ya. And I'm not knocking keto by any means. It's just for our audience of naturally skinny people who are trying to bulk up, it tends to make things harder.
For cutting, I think it's a really interesting option and the appetite suppression effects could be a total gamechanger. Mind you, for us naturally skinny guys, cutting tends to be pretty easy. So again, you're right, yeah, it comes down to the individual.
Most definitely. But don't confuse my discussion of what can be done vs a recommendation. I was merely pointing out that the OPs poor gains weren't really driven by consuming "too much fat", but rather poor lifting program choice and possibly poor nutrition.5 -
ShaneDuquette wrote: »ShaneDuquette wrote: »
Do me a favor and don't link articles to your site, that would be advertising.
Also, i would, in all intents and purposes, suggest that Keto bulks might be suboptimal. There are things like TKD/CKD that might help, but again, little to not data.
Next, i did remember that study on Keto vs traditional. And the appetite suppression did impact their ability. Having said that, if you can overcome that issue, its a non issue. For cutting, Keto has been very good to me, albeit, i may be a bit more low carb since its summer and i want more fruit. For my bulk, i may run TKD as an experiment and will run PHAT or BEAXST (AthleanX). But we will see for TKD, because i do find it difficult at times to keep my calories high on Keto.
Having said all that, it doesn't really apply to the OP. He was at like 30% fat.
I'm sorry, psuLemon. I'm new here. I didn't know the etiquette. Now I do.
No worries.
Also, I suspect I am the only person using Keto (CKD specifically) on this forum that have a lot of knowledge relating to bodybuilding getting lean. Ironically, I used to be against it (if you look at my post from several years ago) because data didn't support there being benefits. I do think a lot of that was driven based on limited data sets and/or study designs focused on bodybuilding. And it's even more difficult to draw conclusions as most of the famous Youtubers that are big, didn't get there on Keto but rather built their physique with bro-diets and transitioned to Keto. Also, a lot of the utilization of this diet in bodybuilders was for cutting.
Regardless, there is a point (right or wrong) that the individual response has to be more important (to that individual) than the data. That is what got me here. I tried for years (like 3-4) to get abs just doing flexible dieting and calorie counting. After failing for years, even while training hard, I said screw it and I went with keto. First time was a fail. Second time has been amazing. I am leaner now than I have been in 20 years. When I flex, I can see a 6 pack, and unflexed I can see the beginnings. And I still have a "good" amount of lower ab fat. Hoping another 5 lbs will solve that. My compliance is exponentially better than it was while doing Flexible dieting. So overall, Keto has been a game changer for me in getting real lean. Flexibile dieting did help me lose 50 lbs a decade ago but I maxed out at 173 lbs. With keto, I have gotten to 164 and continuing to make progress.
I hear ya. And I'm not knocking keto by any means. It's just for our audience of naturally skinny people who are trying to bulk up, it tends to make things harder.
For cutting, I think it's a really interesting option and the appetite suppression effects could be a total gamechanger. Mind you, for us naturally skinny guys, cutting tends to be pretty easy. So again, you're right, yeah, it comes down to the individual.
Most definitely. But don't confuse my discussion of what can be done vs a recommendation. I was merely pointing out that the OPs poor gains weren't really driven by consuming "too much fat", but rather poor lifting program choice and possibly poor nutrition.
Yes, so hopefully I can make some good gains with the Bony to Beastly program.
I also looked at my food diary and realized that there are days where almost 50% of my calories come from pizza or subway. So I definitely have to clean up that part of my diet. Maybe cook more food and bring it to work rather than relying on "outside" food.4 -
Refer to the "Great Fitness Industry Scam" in the "Debate: Health and Fitness" section of MFP....before doing so, the information shared by the gentleman representing said program has provided some useful information in regards to progressive growth and sustainability in regards to quote on quote "hardgainers", i want to be clear on that....aside from a properly diagnosed medical issue that inhibits weight gain/loss/muscle growth, the bulk of most individual's success will come from trial and error, actually taking the time to assess and adjust according to individual needs, and consistency to the process.
Good luck OP in whichever program you choose to adhere to, track your results, and adjust as needed.0 -
asianambition wrote: »ShaneDuquette wrote: »ShaneDuquette wrote: »
Do me a favor and don't link articles to your site, that would be advertising.
Also, i would, in all intents and purposes, suggest that Keto bulks might be suboptimal. There are things like TKD/CKD that might help, but again, little to not data.
Next, i did remember that study on Keto vs traditional. And the appetite suppression did impact their ability. Having said that, if you can overcome that issue, its a non issue. For cutting, Keto has been very good to me, albeit, i may be a bit more low carb since its summer and i want more fruit. For my bulk, i may run TKD as an experiment and will run PHAT or BEAXST (AthleanX). But we will see for TKD, because i do find it difficult at times to keep my calories high on Keto.
Having said all that, it doesn't really apply to the OP. He was at like 30% fat.
I'm sorry, psuLemon. I'm new here. I didn't know the etiquette. Now I do.
No worries.
Also, I suspect I am the only person using Keto (CKD specifically) on this forum that have a lot of knowledge relating to bodybuilding getting lean. Ironically, I used to be against it (if you look at my post from several years ago) because data didn't support there being benefits. I do think a lot of that was driven based on limited data sets and/or study designs focused on bodybuilding. And it's even more difficult to draw conclusions as most of the famous Youtubers that are big, didn't get there on Keto but rather built their physique with bro-diets and transitioned to Keto. Also, a lot of the utilization of this diet in bodybuilders was for cutting.
Regardless, there is a point (right or wrong) that the individual response has to be more important (to that individual) than the data. That is what got me here. I tried for years (like 3-4) to get abs just doing flexible dieting and calorie counting. After failing for years, even while training hard, I said screw it and I went with keto. First time was a fail. Second time has been amazing. I am leaner now than I have been in 20 years. When I flex, I can see a 6 pack, and unflexed I can see the beginnings. And I still have a "good" amount of lower ab fat. Hoping another 5 lbs will solve that. My compliance is exponentially better than it was while doing Flexible dieting. So overall, Keto has been a game changer for me in getting real lean. Flexibile dieting did help me lose 50 lbs a decade ago but I maxed out at 173 lbs. With keto, I have gotten to 164 and continuing to make progress.
I hear ya. And I'm not knocking keto by any means. It's just for our audience of naturally skinny people who are trying to bulk up, it tends to make things harder.
For cutting, I think it's a really interesting option and the appetite suppression effects could be a total gamechanger. Mind you, for us naturally skinny guys, cutting tends to be pretty easy. So again, you're right, yeah, it comes down to the individual.
Most definitely. But don't confuse my discussion of what can be done vs a recommendation. I was merely pointing out that the OPs poor gains weren't really driven by consuming "too much fat", but rather poor lifting program choice and possibly poor nutrition.
Yes, so hopefully I can make some good gains with the Bony to Beastly program.
I also looked at my food diary and realized that there are days where almost 50% of my calories come from pizza or subway. So I definitely have to clean up that part of my diet. Maybe cook more food and bring it to work rather than relying on "outside" food.
You need to create a surplus (the concrete amount has yet to be determined accurately through studies) of calories to build muscle.....even recommended amounts of protein (0.6 -1g per lb of bodyweight) has yet to be proven 100% accurate for every human being on the planet......the starting point is learning how to track these results specifically to your goals....your food choices are not the absolute here.0 -
most definitely NOT a scam. These guys are freaking awesome and I can't recommend them enough. I used their workouts and nutrition coaching to bulk up from a super skinny 170 lbs up to 215 at my heaviest. Shane, Jared, and Marco are real ones. Freaking love those guys. Don't knock it til you try it yall, they're friggin legit, and I'm a health coach now so I give them props wherever I can.
If you have any questions hit me up ANYWHERE (rickyleemay is my tag on all the platforms haha) and I'd be happy to talk with you. And no they didn't pay me to say this I just owe so much to b2b lol I'm a big supporter0 -
I just want to add my own endorsement of the Bony to Beastly programme having been through a bulk and a cut following tow of their programmes and just starting out on a third. I started out at 184lbs with practically no muscle (my wife told me I felt like I'd wasted away) but also carried a ridiculous 36" belly that was totally out of kilter with the rest of my frame. Following 6 phases of the Bony to Beastly programme I put on 28lbs in 6 months, there were some periods of injury, holidays and illness that prolonged the timeframe but I was very happy with the results. Beyond the workout sheets, the online members forum was a great source of advice and motivation as was the individual support offered by the founders and coaches from dietary advice to reviewing my technique via video sharing.
I didn't find it especially expensive to be honest, the equivalent of three PT sessions, so in that regard it was great value for a 25 week programme (if one starts with the novice Phase 0 as I did), 12 months online support, 340 page e-book, recipe book and workout spreadsheets to track progress.0 -
The last 2 posters responded with their testimonials and it’s both their first post 🤔.
Yeah, definitely not a fan of program testimonials on here when I’m trying to steer clear of them all day everyday. But I did enjoy reading about the science everyone shared back in 2020. I’m learning so much from this site and it’s free. Any update on the OP since then?0 -
Scam.........eh. Any well thought out program with the right amount of calories and macros for an individual works if followed. There are so many free ones out there. But as a trainer in the fitness industry, some people just need someone to be there to push them or encourage them to do what they need to.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
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Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 35+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
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