TDEE data and questions based on calculations
Replies
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Also, Richard, the whole point of the exercise of calculating your divergence from your device TDEE it's so that you have a metric as to how trustworthy your external estimator is.
Just as a general comment for myself and my Fitbit I found over time that while my average divergence is around the 3% mark (at least that's what I use mentally); actual divergence is almost zero on low activity days and possibly closer to 5% on extremely high activity days; but that's based on my type of activities, logging, and my relation to population means... your metrics will be your own!
Ann's for example are wild underestimates due to her being a good 'lil calorie burner! Me, I'm average!!!
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Try using the "Edit My Day" option at the bottom, and see if you can add cards to your display that would be helpful to you.
ETA: Just for clarity, I haven't enabled the "Calories In/Out" linkage to MFP, because - based on long logging experience - MFP and Garmin both estimate me wrong, so I set my calorie intake in MFP manually, then estimate and add exercise separately. Consequently, I don't know what the display looks like with the MFP/Garmin linkage set up. Also, different Garmin devices can display different things in Connect. I have a Vivoactive 3, FWIW.
I think that is it, the link changes the view. I've set myself as sedentary in MFP and a target of 2500 manually, which was what I believed TDEE to be, so although my exercise comes over from Garmin plus adjustments, I eat to my TDEE now, but I think it is closer to 2700, so I'm eating 2700 with the idea that I'll know if I gain it is too high and the gain will be minimal.
Everything changed this morning anyway, what was I thinking trying to build strength and signing up to a works running challenge? 3000 calories a day is a slog to eat when you're trying to eat good healthy foods. All for charity though 😊1 -
Garmin is downright goofy in the way they display some of this info.
They estimate an RMR value, which is not sedentary, they convert the BMR, and then do something else - because despite no weight changes it slightly changes day to day.
Or they merely take the TDEE value and subtract out the workouts and daily activity - and call what's left the RMR.
And their adjusted goal and calories remaining is done strange - MFP does it better.
At least on website they call it Total Calories Burned since they have the space.
And you can the reports on that value.
So we think Total Calories Burned is the TDEE then and not the Adjusted Goal? I used the Adjusted Goal on Pav's sheet..0 -
Your "error" was surprisingly low for someone who just started logging and had a lot of exercise.
Total Calories Burned sounds much closer to TDEE (Total Daily Energy Expenditure) than Adjusted Goal...
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Your "error" was surprisingly low for someone who just started logging and had a lot of exercise.
Total Calories Burned sounds much closer to TDEE (Total Daily Energy Expenditure) than Adjusted Goal...
Yes, it changes quite a bit with Total Cals Burned, I also double checked the other data and it seems I was a day out somewhere, so I've updated it all now. I've left the Adjusted in column L just for reference.
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I'll have to look on a computer after some z's. Too small on my phone and won't expand!1
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richiechowns wrote: »Garmin is downright goofy in the way they display some of this info.
They estimate an RMR value, which is not sedentary, they convert the BMR, and then do something else - because despite no weight changes it slightly changes day to day.
Or they merely take the TDEE value and subtract out the workouts and daily activity - and call what's left the RMR.
And their adjusted goal and calories remaining is done strange - MFP does it better.
At least on website they call it Total Calories Burned since they have the space.
And you can the reports on that value.
So we think Total Calories Burned is the TDEE then and not the Adjusted Goal? I used the Adjusted Goal on Pav's sheet..
Oh absolutely Total Calories Burned is TDEE. The name says it all. That's what TDEE means.
Adjusted Goal is referring to eating goal.
Daily Goal is your base MFP eating goal (that is a figure Garmin pulls from MFP, but it's the base, not adjusted eating goal).
Active Calories is anything above RMR that is from being active not sitting all day long.
Adjusted Goal is therefore new eating goal according to how Garmin does math.
And that is exactly why you use MFP for the eating goal - because that is goofy way of doing it.1 -
In case this is of any use, the total calories burned in the Garmin Android app can be found by opening the main menu > Health and performance > Calories. (I find it easier than using the website)2
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richiechowns wrote: »Garmin is downright goofy in the way they display some of this info.
They estimate an RMR value, which is not sedentary, they convert the BMR, and then do something else - because despite no weight changes it slightly changes day to day.
Or they merely take the TDEE value and subtract out the workouts and daily activity - and call what's left the RMR.
And their adjusted goal and calories remaining is done strange - MFP does it better.
At least on website they call it Total Calories Burned since they have the space.
And you can the reports on that value.
So we think Total Calories Burned is the TDEE then and not the Adjusted Goal? I used the Adjusted Goal on Pav's sheet..
Oh absolutely Total Calories Burned is TDEE. The name says it all. That's what TDEE means.
Adjusted Goal is referring to eating goal.
Daily Goal is your base MFP eating goal (that is a figure Garmin pulls from MFP, but it's the base, not adjusted eating goal).
Active Calories is anything above RMR that is from being active not sitting all day long.
Adjusted Goal is therefore new eating goal according to how Garmin does math.
And that is exactly why you use MFP for the eating goal - because that is goofy way of doing it.
Thanks @heybales
Check this out for today so far, I've not yet eaten 2960 cals, I've just added dinner in for later as it is easier sometimes when the meals are prep'd, so I can work out snacks etc. The adjusted goal of over 4k, I'd have no chance eating that anyway, so like you say, goofy! Even yesterday at 3034 would have been a stretch. Thanks for clearing that up.
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In case this is of any use, the total calories burned in the Garmin Android app can be found by opening the main menu > Health and performance > Calories. (I find it easier than using the website)
Great thanks, that is easier than faffing with the website, scrolling down for each day.0 -
Your adjusted goal is probably extra goofy because you may have manually set a goal. Manual input takes precedence.
I updated the s/h version with slight formatting improvements.
You would probably find your %'s a bit more smoothed out if you were using weight trend instead of weight. As you have more weeks... the apparent error decreases. This is the part where we say "weight change is not linear".
Any few days can have wild swings... over a long enough period of time your trend emerges.
If someone was holding a gun to my head and asking me to give them a value as to how closely you can believe your Garmin's TOTAL CALORIES OUT based on your activities so far... I would say around 5% off.
If you cut and pasted your columns make sure that the cells up top are referencing the correct values.
If they are, I note that the information says your Garmin TDEE is an UNDERESTIMATE.
I.e. when you see Garmin telling you that at the end of the day you burned 2718 Calories, the "corrected" estimate based on your food logging, Garmin logging, types of activities, and weight changes so far, is that you would need to eat approximately 2850 Calories to maintain your weight.1 -
@PAV8888 thanks again, really interesting and informative data. As you'll see from my screen shot above, I did slightly mess up the calories in and had to re-enter all that yesterday, however, the different is minimal.
I have manually set a goal of 2500 on MFP, which I think needs to increase, or do I set the goal based on maintenance and let it go through MFP? I think the goal is a bit arbitrary anyway, as no way my TDEE is 2500 even before the running challenge, but I crept it up from where it was.
One interesting thing yesterday, before bed my Total Calories was around 3k as I looked before sleep, when I woke up it was 3640, which of course must take into account the time between 9pm and midnight before the next 24hrs? I ate over 3k cals yesterday but I guess if it was correct, that is a over 500 cal deficit, so won't be maintenance. I'll be glad to get through this running challenge so I can settle back into a pattern a bit more.
Good news, my pull up side challenge was good this morning and so my strength is improving
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Strength has a strength to weight component.
Set to maintain and let MFP and Garmin sort.
Set Garmin eating to maintain not to arbitrary target too.
Not sure if we're on the same page: any data we had as of the last time I looked at what you posted was that if Garmin said you needed 3000 Cal to maintain, you actually needed about 3150 to do so (obligatory disclaimer: based on past performance and data as given, time period is shorter than ideal, future performance not guaranteed based on past data
)
Your narrative seems to imply you are thinking the opposite.
I note that my own experience does imply that at some level of extremely caloric exercise needs decrease relative to models (and there is a hunter gatherer tribe study somewhere that sort of points to that). This doesn't mean you can assume with impunity that this is the case without any corroborating evidence--which would be what you would be doing if you consistently fuel with 3150 when the only evidence other than hunger levels (which for quite a few people actually tend to work better than even the most careful logging) points to you needing ~3800!
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Strength has a strength to weight component.
Set to maintain and let MFP and Garmin sort.
Set Garmin eating to maintain not to arbitrary target too.
Not sure if we're on the same page: any data we had as of the last time I looked at what you posted was that if Garmin said you needed 3000 Cal to maintain, you actually needed about 3150 to do so (obligatory disclaimer: based on past performance and data as given, time period is shorter than ideal, future performance not guaranteed based on past data )
Your narrative seems to imply you are thinking the opposite.
I note that my own experience does imply that at some level of extremely caloric exercise needs decrease relative to models (and there is a hunter gatherer tribe study somewhere that sort of points to that). This doesn't mean you can assume with impunity that this is the case without any corroborating evidence--which would be what you would be doing if you consistently fuel with 3150 when the only evidence other than hunger levels (which for quite a few people actually tend to work better than even the most careful logging) points to you needing ~3800!
I think Garmin takes the eating goal from MFP, I cannot find an eating goal on Garmin but you can set a weight goal. I wonder should I just delete that weight goal or put it at my current weight? I guess if I made gains in muscle, then it might cause confusion with the numbers as I gain muscle, which I'd be happy to do. I'll set MFP to maintain.
Sorry I'm not thinking the opposite at all, I was before collection of the data as I was getting a lot of high adjustments on MFP but probably for good reason. It's the shift from losing weight, which I needed to 3 to 4 months ago to now wanting to recomp and maybe even build a bit.
Tomorrow is my usual weigh in day, so I'll have new weekly data to put in the sheet, obviously I don't want to become a bore with this for others but I do appreciate the help 👍0 -
set all to maintain? I think people with Garmin have been quite helpful, so maybe they can offer suggestions! A lb or two should not meaningfully change the calories...1
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Garmin does take the eating goal from MFP.
I just changed mine Mon, so either there is an issue, or it doesn't work great, or a delay perhaps - because it finally updated today.
But with their method of math, which I still don't understand - you can't follow those eating guidelines at all.
I think they had an initial understanding of what they wanted to request from MFP, but they were wrong.
Put weight goal where you want it - it's for their Weight tracking section is all, not used in any math.
Current weight is important, as it determines the RMR calorie burn, and the movement based burn on distance.
3-5 lbs probably significant enough to matter.2 -
Garmin does take the eating goal from MFP.
I just changed mine Mon, so either there is an issue, or it doesn't work great, or a delay perhaps - because it finally updated today.
But with their method of math, which I still don't understand - you can't follow those eating guidelines at all.
I think they had an initial understanding of what they wanted to request from MFP, but they were wrong.
Put weight goal where you want it - it's for their Weight tracking section is all, not used in any math.
Current weight is important, as it determines the RMR calorie burn, and the movement based burn on distance.
3-5 lbs probably significant enough to matter.
Cool, the weight on Garmin must be taken from MFP as it is tracking the same, I've just removed the weight goal for now on Garmin.
I reset MFP to maintenance, as I had it set to 2500 cals manually and it dropped back to 2020 based on my sedentary setting. I've had a very active day so ate 3200+ cals today and I still am not sure it was enough for today. Sleep time now!!2 -
@PAV8888 here is the data after today's weigh in, I'll now leave it ticking along for a few weeks logging as I go. I updated each formula to reflect the weeks as they are shown up top.
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So what was so different last week??? You seem so..... within population averages all the other time! Not that 10% is that much anyway; but it does look aberrant compared to the rest!
Oh well. You seem to have a handle on things now!!!!!!!0 -
So what was so different last week??? You seem so..... within population averages all the other time! Not that 10% is that much anyway; but it does look aberrant compared to the rest!
Oh well. You seem to have a handle on things now!!!!!!!
Hi @PAV8888
I've been tracking for 14 weeks now, here are the results. Interesting the last few weeks, I started running for a challenge with work, which has ended now but I was doing average 40 miles per week, so increased my calories in based on @heybales Just TDEE spreadsheet. Here is the latest info;
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Richie, when you post on MFP I can't see the formulas and entries. You can link a public share (view rights only are sufficient) that you can then disable, or you can send me a PM and I'll send you a google account you can private share with.
For example I don't get how we can have a 3.96% error and difference per day of 997 and 21.93% error and difference per day of 262 Cal, so something is wrong with one of the two figures or I do not remember what they represent.
If your question is that your weight changed abruptly after an abrupt change in activity, there is a reason why we/I keep talking about weight trend as opposed to scale weight and averages over several week.
I mean as males we may not have hormonal water weight variations on a monthly basis, but 64km of running difference from week to week is bound to have a water weight effect or two both coming in and going out.
Your DAILY weight does not react instantly just based on your calories especially given that most of the variation can be caused by non caloric issues (literally water retention). Your LONG TERM TREND DOES track/respond based on your caloric balance (and absent medical problems, of course)
Have you ever set up trendweight or libra or happy scale and use the weight trend change as opposed to daily weight for your spreadsheet?
Also: are you trying to maintain/gain/lose at this point?
Cheers!1 -
Richie, when you post on MFP I can't see the formulas and entries. You can link a public share (view rights only are sufficient) that you can then disable, or you can send me a PM and I'll send you a google account you can private share with.
For example I don't get how we can have a 3.96% error and difference per day of 997 and 21.93% error and difference per day of 262 Cal, so something is wrong with one of the two figures or I do not remember what they represent.
If your question is that your weight changed abruptly after an abrupt change in activity, there is a reason why we/I keep talking about weight trend as opposed to scale weight and averages over several week.
I mean as males we may not have hormonal water weight variations on a monthly basis, but 64km of running difference from week to week is bound to have a water weight effect or two both coming in and going out.
Your DAILY weight does not react instantly just based on your calories especially given that most of the variation can be caused by non caloric issues (literally water retention). Your LONG TERM TREND DOES track/respond based on your caloric balance (and absent medical problems, of course)
Have you ever set up trendweight or libra or happy scale and use the weight trend change as opposed to daily weight for your spreadsheet?
Also: are you trying to maintain/gain/lose at this point?
Cheers!
Hi @PAV8888 I'm not sure if you received my IM? I weighed in today as part of a build up to my next exercise plan and was back to 67.4kg, which shows how massive the fluctuations can be, considering yesterday I bust maintenance cals by 500+..0 -
Hey, nope, didn't get the im which means MFP won't pass it unless we friend (which I've been avoiding with everyone lately!!!)
Onetimesecret.com, saltify.io, and password.link (many others too) can be used to share on a one time basis a link (the secret is no longer available afterward it is viewed once or on a timer if never viewed)
If you wanted to be top top secret, you could create a Google account using disposable email... actually, I just did that: I made a disposable Google account.
And "hid" my disposable secret account via:
https://onetimesecret.com/secret/5ds3qhppzw9pmqs2ihhv5vzvkgjmblc
Or a short link: https://v.gd/qKiV61
Secret expires in 24 hours and/or the first time someone reads it!
You can share the spreadsheet privately with the disposable google account! (Or create a public link and send to the account)
If you don't see my message when you click, this means someone else read it, and you should alert me.... to go though the process again! (It ain't as if I care if someone learns the name of the non identifying fake disposable account I just created!) 😹🙈
Wow! That was simple!!!! 🤔😂1 -
Hey, nope, didn't get the im which means MFP won't pass it unless we friend (which I've been avoiding with everyone lately!!!)
Onetimesecret.com, saltify.io, and password.link (many others too) can be used to share on a one time basis a link (the secret is no longer available afterward it is viewed once or on a timer if never viewed)
If you wanted to be top top secret, you could create a Google account using disposable email... actually, I just did that: I made a disposable Google account.
And "hid" my disposable secret account via:
https://onetimesecret.com/secret/5ds3qhppzw9pmqs2ihhv5vzvkgjmblc
Or a short link: https://v.gd/qKiV61
Secret expires in 24 hours and/or the first time someone reads it!
You can share the spreadsheet privately with the disposable google account! (Or create a public link and send to the account)
If you don't see my message when you click, this means someone else read it, and you should alert me.... to go though the process again! (It ain't as if I care if someone learns the name of the non identifying fake disposable account I just created!) 😹🙈
Wow! That was simple!!!! 🤔😂
Someone else ready it. Shall I just add you as a friend then you can delete me after? I'll not hassle you, promise 0 -
Heh, heh, no problem! It might have been the 24 hours
Sending you a FR!
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