Don't know if I should gain muscle or lose weight?

tigersword

Since you can't build muscle and lose fat at the same time, lift heavy (to retain the muscle you already have) and lose the fat. Then when you reach your desired body fat levels, work on adding calories and building muscle.

you CAN gain muscle and lose fat at the same time. You just can't do both at maximum efficiency at the same time. If you're trying to crash diet to get skinny quick (unwise) then you should work on that to exclusion. If you're trying to get massive muscle gains quick (like for competition, or what have you) then you should work on that to exclusion.

If you are overweight (fat) and want to make a healthy lifestyle change to reduce body fat and increase muscle, then eat at the TDEE of a person who's the size you WANT to be, and lift heavy. You'll gradually get stronger and lose body fat and meet in the middle of where you want to be. Then you can see if you want to be more muscular or less fat and adjust calories and lifting accordingly.

False. Noob gains are a possibility for someone who has never exercised, but they are very small and fleeting. Calorie surplus is required for muscle gain, and calorie deficit is required for fat loss. What you're describing is akin to trying to drive your car in forward and reverse at the same time. It's not going to happen.

I disagree..i managed to loose a lot of fat and gain a lot of muscle at the same time. Both processes have been slowed because I am doing both at the same time but I ve still made progress in both departments. And both gains have been constantly going for 4-6 months. Granted im not trying to bulk for a comp or anything but I ve made some decent gains non the less.

How exactly have you measured these gains? Other than a Dexa scan, there's really no truly accurate method.

tigersword

LN: Well I think certain people can build muscle and burn fat at the same time and they general fall into 3 groups: 1) beginners 2) very obese people and 3) those using steroids or illicit lipolytics or a combination of any 3 of those. But if a person has been training hard for a few years and is very good with their nutrition and aren’t 35% bodyfat, they aren’t going to burn fat and build muscle at the same time most likely. It would be EXTREMELY unlikely to happen.

I'm not sure if you were trying to counter what I, and others, have said about it being possible to do both at the same time, but I wholeheartedly agree with what you said.

Here's the thing. Most people who ask questions like this are 1: beginners and 2: obese.

Telling a fat newbie that they can't do both at the same time is not helpful, because it makes them feel like they need either to go on a calorie restricted diet to lose fat OR eat a surplus and lift heavy to gain muscle. If you lift heavy AND eat at a slight deficit, an obese starter will be happier with the results than one who does either/or.

When you have been lifting for long enough to no longer be a beginner, 6-8 months or more, to pull a number out of my bottom, then maybe you have to look into what you want to do to get to the next level. In 6-8 months of eating at a slight deficit, that fat beginner has probably also dropped enough fat to see muscles they never knew were there all along and they'll have a solid foundation of lifting and proper form to enable them to catapult themselves into the next level, if thats where they want to be.

To OP: You can do both. If you want to be stronger and you have a lot of body fat you don't want anymore, You should do both.

Nobody said you can't incorporate heavy lifting while cutting. Just because you can't grow muscle, doesn't mean you can't retain muscle. Also, "noob gains" are very small, mostly unnoticeable. It's maybe a few pounds of muscle over a 6 month period for a man, significantly less for a woman (not enough testosterone.)

Most people think they are building muscle because they are retaining water and increasing glycogen stores (which shows increased lbm) and because they get stronger. 99% of the reason beginner lifters get stronger has absolutely nothing to do with muscle building. It's all about neuromuscular adaptation, where the central nervous system reprograms itself and the muscles to fire more efficiently, leading to seemingly massive strength gains. Once those adaptations finish, that's generally when the beginner lifter stalls out, and from there, either stagnates if cutting, or will continue to very slowly gain strength as muscle builds if bulking.

tigersword

THANK YOU!! I don't know how many times I've been told this couldn't happen and I was not a "special snowflake". Yet I did it (BF% and inches decreased but gained a couple of pounds and increased strength).

It took at while but it can be done.

No, it can't.

You didn't gain muscle, you gained water, that's why your BF% went down.

Don't conflate strength with increased muscle mass - they are two separate issues.

Permanent water weight, eh?

Increased glycogen stores will lead to permanent water weight gain, yes.

HappyStack

False, actually. You can lose fat and build muscle at the same time, but you have to eat at a small deficit, eat well and work hard (well, that's true for any kind of weight loss).

http://scoobysworkshop.com/gain-muscle-lose-fat/

THANK YOU!! I don't know how many times I've been told this couldn't happen and I was not a "special snowflake". Yet I did it (BF% and inches decreased but gained a couple of pounds and increased strength).

It took at while but it can be done.

"A couple of lbs" is not an appreciable increase in muscle mass, especially if "it took a while". Increased strength has nothing to do with muscle *mass* it's just a central nervous system response to a stressor.

I put on 10kg building more lean body mass over a period of 6-7 months, my bodyfat percentage did not change, though I look a helluva lot more muscular than I am when I flex.

You can *maintain* a lot of your existing lean body mass by eating at a small deficit and lifting heavy. You will eventually alter your body composition (it could take almost a year, depending on how experienced you are) but your muscularity will not increase by any significant amount until you're in a caloric surplus.

The holy grail here is the lifting heavy. You should be doing this if you want to lose fat or gain muscle, and your routine should not change when you alter your calorie intake. Muscles atrophy within a matter of months if a particular routine is thrown away. The key to looking more "toned", muscular or being stronger is consistency.

ndj1979

Since you can't build muscle and lose fat at the same time, lift heavy (to retain the muscle you already have) and lose the fat. Then when you reach your desired body fat levels, work on adding calories and building muscle.

you CAN gain muscle and lose fat at the same time. You just can't do both at maximum efficiency at the same time. If you're trying to crash diet to get skinny quick (unwise) then you should work on that to exclusion. If you're trying to get massive muscle gains quick (like for competition, or what have you) then you should work on that to exclusion.

If you are overweight (fat) and want to make a healthy lifestyle change to reduce body fat and increase muscle, then eat at the TDEE of a person who's the size you WANT to be, and lift heavy. You'll gradually get stronger and lose body fat and meet in the middle of where you want to be. Then you can see if you want to be more muscular or less fat and adjust calories and lifting accordingly.

False. Noob gains are a possibility for someone who has never exercised, but they are very small and fleeting. Calorie surplus is required for muscle gain, and calorie deficit is required for fat loss. What you're describing is akin to trying to drive your car in forward and reverse at the same time. It's not going to happen.

False, actually. You can lose fat and build muscle at the same time, but you have to eat at a small deficit, eat well and work hard (well, that's true for any kind of weight loss).

http://scoobysworkshop.com/gain-muscle-lose-fat/

sorry that is not correct...you need energy to build muscle i.e. calorie surplus...

what you are saying is akin to saying you can drive your car on an empty tank of gas....

ndj1979

Since you can't build muscle and lose fat at the same time, lift heavy (to retain the muscle you already have) and lose the fat. Then when you reach your desired body fat levels, work on adding calories and building muscle.

you CAN gain muscle and lose fat at the same time. You just can't do both at maximum efficiency at the same time. If you're trying to crash diet to get skinny quick (unwise) then you should work on that to exclusion. If you're trying to get massive muscle gains quick (like for competition, or what have you) then you should work on that to exclusion.

If you are overweight (fat) and want to make a healthy lifestyle change to reduce body fat and increase muscle, then eat at the TDEE of a person who's the size you WANT to be, and lift heavy. You'll gradually get stronger and lose body fat and meet in the middle of where you want to be. Then you can see if you want to be more muscular or less fat and adjust calories and lifting accordingly.

False. Noob gains are a possibility for someone who has never exercised, but they are very small and fleeting. Calorie surplus is required for muscle gain, and calorie deficit is required for fat loss. What you're describing is akin to trying to drive your car in forward and reverse at the same time. It's not going to happen.

I disagree..i managed to loose a lot of fat and gain a lot of muscle at the same time. Both processes have been slowed because I am doing both at the same time but I ve still made progress in both departments. And both gains have been constantly going for 4-6 months. Granted im not trying to bulk for a comp or anything but I ve made some decent gains non the less.

more than likely the body fat that you lost allowed more muscle definition to show...you did not build new muscle...

sydneybeachgirl

[/quote]
Don't listen to this. Uninformed. You can do both unless, you are trying to become a body builder.. I have several MFP examples that have succeeded in doing them both at the same time. One of my MFP mates lost over 200 lbs and now is a buff body builder. He became lean and cut at the same time.
[/quote]

it is the opposite that is happening to me! I am coming from a sporting background (swimming and rowing) and always had the upside-down-triangle body shape most swimmers..I had some medical issues (because of my rowing history) that prevented me from exercising for about a decade....left it all behind me a year ago..happily back to my usual activity level - I need to have at least 5 exercise session a week to feel fine..Some weeks I do 7 (just because Iove outdoors and if the weather is fine I am out cycling, rowing, swimming whatever) ....I do 70% cardio 30% strenght each workout I have...but instead of losing kgs I am finding that my muscles are becoming very appearant.I am starting to get cyclist's legs...and my shoulders look like a boxer's or a weightlifter..I went to the pool over the weekend and I got the stares - my arms looked like guns...I dont like it! I am not losing the belly fat..I am stuck at my weight loss progress as well, even thought I barely manage to eat 1200calories a day (have never had a big appetiate) and burn at least 500 per day during exercise...anyone knows how can I turn this around?

WhoHa42

"LN: Well I think certain people can build muscle and burn fat at the same time and they general fall into 3 groups: 1) beginners 2) very obese people and 3) those using steroids or illicit lipolytics or a combination of any 3 of those. But if a person has been training hard for a few years and is very good with their nutrition and aren’t 35% bodyfat, they aren’t going to burn fat and build muscle at the same time most likely. It would be EXTREMELY unlikely to happen. "

This ^

The amount of broscience itt...

FourIsCompany

There seems to be a difference of opinion on the board! :laugh:

All I know is that I've seen several women on this board who build muscle and lose fat at the same time. Their scale number stays the same or even goes up, but their body measurements go down and they get leaner and more muscular and more beautiful! Seeing is believing

Here's just one...
http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/1075240-watch-my-progress

ndj1979

There seems to be a difference of opinion on the board! :laugh:

All I know is that I've seen several women on this board who build muscle and lose fat at the same time. Their scale number stays the same or even goes up, but their body measurements go down and they get leaner and more muscular and more beautiful! Seeing is believing

Here's just one...
http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/1075240-watch-my-progress

she lost body fat which revealed more muscle...the pics show this...

Joehenny

Building muscle in a calorie deficit....lol.....strong logic.

FourIsCompany

There seems to be a difference of opinion on the board! :laugh:

All I know is that I've seen several women on this board who build muscle and lose fat at the same time. Their scale number stays the same or even goes up, but their body measurements go down and they get leaner and more muscular and more beautiful! Seeing is believing

Here's just one...
http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/1075240-watch-my-progress

she lost body fat which revealed more muscle...the pics show this...

And her scale weight increased... How do you explain that? If she lost fat alone, the scale would go down, but her weight increased because she GAINED muscle, while LOSING the fat. I don't really want to argue the point. I've seen it too many times in that group to deny it. It happens. Read her post.

Have a nice day.

MikeDasTrainer

LN: Well I think certain people can build muscle and burn fat at the same time and they general fall into 3 groups: 1) beginners 2) very obese people and 3) those using steroids or illicit lipolytics or a combination of any 3 of those. But if a person has been training hard for a few years and is very good with their nutrition and aren’t 35% bodyfat, they aren’t going to burn fat and build muscle at the same time most likely. It would be EXTREMELY unlikely to happen.

I'm not sure if you were trying to counter what I, and others, have said about it being possible to do both at the same time, but I wholeheartedly agree with what you said.

Here's the thing. Most people who ask questions like this are 1: beginners and 2: obese.

Telling a fat newbie that they can't do both at the same time is not helpful, because it makes them feel like they need either to go on a calorie restricted diet to lose fat OR eat a surplus and lift heavy to gain muscle. If you lift heavy AND eat at a slight deficit, an obese starter will be happier with the results than one who does either/or.

When you have been lifting for long enough to no longer be a beginner, 6-8 months or more, to pull a number out of my bottom, then maybe you have to look into what you want to do to get to the next level. In 6-8 months of eating at a slight deficit, that fat beginner has probably also dropped enough fat to see muscles they never knew were there all along and they'll have a solid foundation of lifting and proper form to enable them to catapult themselves into the next level, if thats where they want to be.

To OP: You can do both. If you want to be stronger and you have a lot of body fat you don't want anymore, You should do both.

Nobody said you can't incorporate heavy lifting while cutting. Just because you can't grow muscle, doesn't mean you can't retain muscle. Also, "noob gains" are very small, mostly unnoticeable. It's maybe a few pounds of muscle over a 6 month period for a man, significantly less for a woman (not enough testosterone.)

Most people think they are building muscle because they are retaining water and increasing glycogen stores (which shows increased lbm) and because they get stronger. 99% of the reason beginner lifters get stronger has absolutely nothing to do with muscle building. It's all about neuromuscular adaptation, where the central nervous system reprograms itself and the muscles to fire more efficiently, leading to seemingly massive strength gains. Once those adaptations finish, that's generally when the beginner lifter stalls out, and from there, either stagnates if cutting, or will continue to very slowly gain strength as muscle builds if bulking.

For everything you seem to be posting about physiology, I find it surprising that you would find it "impossible" to build muscle and lose weight at the same time.

If you eat at a slight deficit and have an increase load on your muscles, your body still has to adapt to the load placed on it. If you consume an adequate amountof protein your serum amino acid level remains high, therefore preventing muscle breakdown and even giving the ability of adding more amino acids to bound muscle proteins.

As others have stated, it is no the most efficient way of doing so, you will not become a huge body builder from it, and you will not lose a whole lot of fat quicklty, but it is possible to gain muscle and lose weight at a minor deficit.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21558571

ndj1979

There seems to be a difference of opinion on the board! :laugh:

All I know is that I've seen several women on this board who build muscle and lose fat at the same time. Their scale number stays the same or even goes up, but their body measurements go down and they get leaner and more muscular and more beautiful! Seeing is believing

Here's just one...
http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/1075240-watch-my-progress

she lost body fat which revealed more muscle...the pics show this...

And her scale weight increased... How do you explain that? If she lost fat alone, the scale would go down, but her weight increased because she GAINED muscle, while LOSING the fat. I don't really want to argue the point. I've seen it too many times in that group to deny it. It happens. Read her post.

Have a nice day.

ummm the first pic says 183 and the last pic says 173....so she lost ten pounds, dropped body fat, and revealed more muscle...

as for the three pound "gain" that is more than likely water retention...

scottaworley

There seems to be a difference of opinion on the board! :laugh:

All I know is that I've seen several women on this board who build muscle and lose fat at the same time. Their scale number stays the same or even goes up, but their body measurements go down and they get leaner and more muscular and more beautiful! Seeing is believing

Here's just one...
http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/1075240-watch-my-progress

she lost body fat which revealed more muscle...the pics show this...

And her scale weight increased... How do you explain that? If she lost fat alone, the scale would go down, but her weight increased because she GAINED muscle, while LOSING the fat. I don't really want to argue the point. I've seen it too many times in that group to deny it. It happens. Read her post.

Have a nice day.

ummm the first pic says 183 and the last pic says 173....so she lost ten pounds, dropped body fat, and revealed more muscle...

as for the three pound "gain" that is more than likely water retention...

The three pound gain was also on her period. Normal fluctuations for a woman.

Sarauk2sf

LN: Well I think certain people can build muscle and burn fat at the same time and they general fall into 3 groups: 1) beginners 2) very obese people and 3) those using steroids or illicit lipolytics or a combination of any 3 of those. But if a person has been training hard for a few years and is very good with their nutrition and aren’t 35% bodyfat, they aren’t going to burn fat and build muscle at the same time most likely. It would be EXTREMELY unlikely to happen.

I'm not sure if you were trying to counter what I, and others, have said about it being possible to do both at the same time, but I wholeheartedly agree with what you said.

Here's the thing. Most people who ask questions like this are 1: beginners and 2: obese.

Telling a fat newbie that they can't do both at the same time is not helpful, because it makes them feel like they need either to go on a calorie restricted diet to lose fat OR eat a surplus and lift heavy to gain muscle. If you lift heavy AND eat at a slight deficit, an obese starter will be happier with the results than one who does either/or.

When you have been lifting for long enough to no longer be a beginner, 6-8 months or more, to pull a number out of my bottom, then maybe you have to look into what you want to do to get to the next level. In 6-8 months of eating at a slight deficit, that fat beginner has probably also dropped enough fat to see muscles they never knew were there all along and they'll have a solid foundation of lifting and proper form to enable them to catapult themselves into the next level, if thats where they want to be.

To OP: You can do both. If you want to be stronger and you have a lot of body fat you don't want anymore, You should do both.

Nobody said you can't incorporate heavy lifting while cutting. Just because you can't grow muscle, doesn't mean you can't retain muscle. Also, "noob gains" are very small, mostly unnoticeable. It's maybe a few pounds of muscle over a 6 month period for a man, significantly less for a woman (not enough testosterone.)

Most people think they are building muscle because they are retaining water and increasing glycogen stores (which shows increased lbm) and because they get stronger. 99% of the reason beginner lifters get stronger has absolutely nothing to do with muscle building. It's all about neuromuscular adaptation, where the central nervous system reprograms itself and the muscles to fire more efficiently, leading to seemingly massive strength gains. Once those adaptations finish, that's generally when the beginner lifter stalls out, and from there, either stagnates if cutting, or will continue to very slowly gain strength as muscle builds if bulking.

For everything you seem to be posting about physiology, I find it surprising that you would find it "impossible" to build muscle and lose weight at the same time.

If you eat at a slight deficit and have an increase load on your muscles, your body still has to adapt to the load placed on it. If you consume an adequate amountof protein your serum amino acid level remains high, therefore preventing muscle breakdown and even giving the ability of adding more amino acids to bound muscle proteins.

As others have stated, it is no the most efficient way of doing so, you will not become a huge body builder from it, and you will not lose a whole lot of fat quicklty, but it is possible to gain muscle and lose weight at a minor deficit.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21558571

Couple of issues with that study. Just because they were athletes does not mean that they did not get newb gains (The following sports were represented in the study: football, volleyball, cross-country skiing, judo, jujitsu, tae kwon do, waterskiing, motocross, cycling, track and field, kickboxing, gymnastics, alpine skiing, ski jumping, rifle shooting, freestyle sports dancing, skating, biathlon, and ice hockey.). The sample size was small. While they were athletes their BF was not that low on average and even went up to 36% for women and 22% for men. Also, water/glycogen is included in LBM.

Side note: what on earth is freestyle sports dancing?

Sarauk2sf

OP: you still have weight to lose. Keep eating at a reasonable deficit, strength train, hit your macros and be patient.

When you are at a lower BF% you will be able to assess better whether you want to bulk/cut, recomp or stay where you are.

MikeDasTrainer

LN: Well I think certain people can build muscle and burn fat at the same time and they general fall into 3 groups: 1) beginners 2) very obese people and 3) those using steroids or illicit lipolytics or a combination of any 3 of those. But if a person has been training hard for a few years and is very good with their nutrition and aren’t 35% bodyfat, they aren’t going to burn fat and build muscle at the same time most likely. It would be EXTREMELY unlikely to happen.

I'm not sure if you were trying to counter what I, and others, have said about it being possible to do both at the same time, but I wholeheartedly agree with what you said.

Here's the thing. Most people who ask questions like this are 1: beginners and 2: obese.

Telling a fat newbie that they can't do both at the same time is not helpful, because it makes them feel like they need either to go on a calorie restricted diet to lose fat OR eat a surplus and lift heavy to gain muscle. If you lift heavy AND eat at a slight deficit, an obese starter will be happier with the results than one who does either/or.

When you have been lifting for long enough to no longer be a beginner, 6-8 months or more, to pull a number out of my bottom, then maybe you have to look into what you want to do to get to the next level. In 6-8 months of eating at a slight deficit, that fat beginner has probably also dropped enough fat to see muscles they never knew were there all along and they'll have a solid foundation of lifting and proper form to enable them to catapult themselves into the next level, if thats where they want to be.

To OP: You can do both. If you want to be stronger and you have a lot of body fat you don't want anymore, You should do both.

Nobody said you can't incorporate heavy lifting while cutting. Just because you can't grow muscle, doesn't mean you can't retain muscle. Also, "noob gains" are very small, mostly unnoticeable. It's maybe a few pounds of muscle over a 6 month period for a man, significantly less for a woman (not enough testosterone.)

Most people think they are building muscle because they are retaining water and increasing glycogen stores (which shows increased lbm) and because they get stronger. 99% of the reason beginner lifters get stronger has absolutely nothing to do with muscle building. It's all about neuromuscular adaptation, where the central nervous system reprograms itself and the muscles to fire more efficiently, leading to seemingly massive strength gains. Once those adaptations finish, that's generally when the beginner lifter stalls out, and from there, either stagnates if cutting, or will continue to very slowly gain strength as muscle builds if bulking.

For everything you seem to be posting about physiology, I find it surprising that you would find it "impossible" to build muscle and lose weight at the same time.

If you eat at a slight deficit and have an increase load on your muscles, your body still has to adapt to the load placed on it. If you consume an adequate amountof protein your serum amino acid level remains high, therefore preventing muscle breakdown and even giving the ability of adding more amino acids to bound muscle proteins.

As others have stated, it is no the most efficient way of doing so, you will not become a huge body builder from it, and you will not lose a whole lot of fat quicklty, but it is possible to gain muscle and lose weight at a minor deficit.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21558571

Couple of issues with that study. Just because they were athletes does not mean that they did not get newb gains (The following sports were represented in the study: football, volleyball, cross-country skiing, judo, jujitsu, tae kwon do, waterskiing, motocross, cycling, track and field, kickboxing, gymnastics, alpine skiing, ski jumping, rifle shooting, freestyle sports dancing, skating, biathlon, and ice hockey.). The sample size was small. While they were athletes their BF was not that low on average and even went up to 36% for women and 22% for men. Also, water/glycogen is included in LBM.

Side note: what on earth is freestyle sports dancing?

"BM decreased by ~6% in both groups during the intervention but was not different from baseline values after 12 mo. FM decreased in SR and FR during the intervention by 31% ± 3% vs. 23% ± 4%, respectively, but was not different from baseline after 12 mo. LBM and upper body strength increased more in SR than in FR (2.0% ± 1.3% vs. 0.8% ± 1.1% and 12% ± 2% vs. 6% ± 2%) during the intervention, but after 12 mo there were no significant differences between groups in BC or performance."

It's saying that over the 12 months, there BF DECRESED by about 31% not that they were at 31% and gained or lost 3%. Also, their LBM increased over the course of a year by about 2%. I'm just trying to explain that it is possible to do both at the same time.

Also, I have no idea what "freestyle sports dancing" some form of hoodoo?

MikeDasTrainer

However, I would wonder how "elite atheletes" had over 20% BF to lose. That would be my first question.

grantwashere

OP: you still have weight to lose. Keep eating at a reasonable deficit, strength train, hit your macros and be patient.

When you are at a lower BF% you will be able to assess better whether you want to bulk/cut, recomp or stay where you are.

^^^Yup. This!^^^ I lift heavy and eat at a deficit. I've lost 20 lbs this way so far and still dropping. I'm not building muscle but I AM seeing a helluva lot of definition that I never knew existed under there and I'm going down in clothes sizes. Don't get all wrapped up with the scale numbers. There's a lot more to this than just that. Friend request a couple dozen people who have done/are doing exactly what you want to do and learn from them as you go. The biggest secret: Just Don't Quit. Add me if you want to.

You got this!

G