Lets talk glycogen stores - in non-athletes/women

13

Replies

  • heybales
    heybales Posts: 18,842 Member
    Here are the formulas for the other columns in order, and some refer to the green ones, PEMDAS matters but Excel does it correctly. These came out of text books discussing indirect calorimetry. my use of cal is Kcal.
    And yes cross-over is usually with calories not grams of fuel used. The % columns are calories already so 50/50% is cross-over.
    I only did some because I thought they might be useful or interesting. I used for instance the carb cal/min to estimate how much refueling on long bike rides or races to do based on how many likely carbs used.

    VO2 mL/kg/min = VO2 L/min * 1000 / test weight KG
    RER = VCO2 L/min / VO2 L/min
    Cal/L O2 = 3.8151 + 1.2318 * RER
    Cal/min = Cal/L O2 * VO2 L/min
    Carb% = IF(RER >= 1, 100, RER ^ 2 * -87.0843 + RER * 489.7265 - 302.6869)
    Fat% = IF(Carb% < 0, 100, 100-Carb%)
    Carb g/L O2 = ROUND(1.0287 * RER ^ 2 + 2.4444 * RER - 2.2422, 4)
    Fat g/L O2 = ROUND(-0.4461 * RER ^ 2 - 0.932 * RER + 1.378, 4)
    Carb Cal/min = Cal/min * Carb% / 100
    Fat Cal/min = Cal/min * Fat% / 100


  • yirara
    yirara Posts: 9,389 Member
    edited February 2021
    heybales wrote: »
    Here are the formulas for the other columns in order, and some refer to the green ones, PEMDAS matters but Excel does it correctly. These came out of text books discussing indirect calorimetry. my use of cal is Kcal.
    And yes cross-over is usually with calories not grams of fuel used. The % columns are calories already so 50/50% is cross-over.
    I only did some because I thought they might be useful or interesting. I used for instance the carb cal/min to estimate how much refueling on long bike rides or races to do based on how many likely carbs used.

    VO2 mL/kg/min = VO2 L/min * 1000 / test weight KG
    RER = VCO2 L/min / VO2 L/min
    Cal/L O2 = 3.8151 + 1.2318 * RER
    Cal/min = Cal/L O2 * VO2 L/min
    Carb% = IF(RER >= 1, 100, RER ^ 2 * -87.0843 + RER * 489.7265 - 302.6869)
    Fat% = IF(Carb% < 0, 100, 100-Carb%)
    Carb g/L O2 = ROUND(1.0287 * RER ^ 2 + 2.4444 * RER - 2.2422, 4)
    Fat g/L O2 = ROUND(-0.4461 * RER ^ 2 - 0.932 * RER + 1.378, 4)
    Carb Cal/min = Cal/min * Carb% / 100
    Fat Cal/min = Cal/min * Fat% / 100


    Thanks a lot :D I got most of them from online sources, but I'm sure this is very helpful for other data geeks as well <3
    Well, lets just say I didn't for some of them use the equations, but I downloaded a table with raw data and used a vlookup on that table. But the results are the same.
  • yirara
    yirara Posts: 9,389 Member
    edited February 2021
    Right, now we're really getting in data nerdery territory here.
    I had a look at what calorie expenditure means for average running and walking hr for me. Starting with 0.3*lbs*miles and 0.64*lbs*miles for walking and running respectively I am happy to report that my energy expenditure seems to be substantially higher for walking (146%), and still higher for running (133%). Hmm.. but of course I'm likely comparing apples and pears as this was a bike test and I'm talking walking and running... maybe.
  • heybales
    heybales Posts: 18,842 Member
    yirara wrote: »
    Right, now we're really getting in data nerdery territory here.
    I had a look at what calorie expenditure means for average running and walking hr for me. Starting with 0.3*lbs*miles and 0.64*lbs*miles for walking and running respectively I am happy to report that my energy expenditure seems to be substantially higher for walking (146%), and still higher for running (133%). Hmm.. but of course I'm likely comparing apples and pears as this was a bike test and I'm talking walking and running... maybe.

    If LT matched between the sports - then the usually straightish line function between 90 and there would match - so same HR would be about same calorie burn.

    Most people it is not.
    From the couple of studies I found (because it was always claimed biking HRmax is lower than running and mine was not) - if you started as runner and added in biking you have better chance of matching. Reverse not so much.
    May also be reason for some of your test result max's.

    You could do a 20-30 min field LT run test and see if it appears the same. But need treadmill or track and ability to pace it on up and have accurate HR readings.

    But even if off a bit - that is interesting, I'll have to compare that net burn.
    Since the start of the test for me had base burn sitting there, not hard to subtract that off.
  • yirara
    yirara Posts: 9,389 Member
    edited February 2021
    Oh *kitten*! You're right of course in that I don't know whether I'm looking at gross or net burn. If what I get out of the exercise test is gross (which it should be) then I of course need to convert to net. And then the numbers match much better, at 105 and 112% respectively for a lower hr estimate and not close to the going hard with that respective exercise hr level. That looks better.

    I have a sneaking suspicion that my bike HRmax might be lower, but I don't have evidence for that as I don't do full out tests for health reason (beyond this data nerdery thread) anymore. I did do some bike HRmax attempts on spinning bikes in the past and got to 201 in the third of three intervals. But I never managed to last the whole three minutes :D Ever had a former professional race cyclist champion shout at you? That was my moment :D Anyway, I once managed to get to 205 speed walking against a storm with not so much gusts but constant wind of over 100km. My VO2 max estimates seem to line up, thus that's something.
  • yirara
    yirara Posts: 9,389 Member
    @heybales can I ask you one last question? Maybe you know. I'm trying to find average values for RER for rest, vt1, vt2, peak load for non-athletes and people that aren't sick. This seems impossible to do.

    I found a couple of studies with some numbers, but the study setup seems inconsistent, and hence the numbers are all over the place.

    https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.4137/CCRPM.S449
    * uses lactate threshold, and doesn't publish actual numbers
    https://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?script=sci_arttext&pid=S1980-00372019000100330
    * non-athletes look very fit
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6478351/
    * I don't think they actually went to max

    Argh!

    I'm trying to figure out how my VCO2 or VO2 numbers would look like if my RER under load was normal. Even using numbers from those studies I get super crazy results, but I need something that's more verifiable.
  • heybales
    heybales Posts: 18,842 Member
    I've never seen such things either.

    I know my mom went up for heart stress test - and their plan was to test only to 60% estimated HRmax, 220-age, to try to come in under LT/AT level.
    She got there and they were going to stop and she said no too easy, so they kept going, but they finally stopped her again because of concern they would cause something.

    I don't think you'd find an ethical study actually pushing non-fit people to discover their true HRmax, or actually even their LT.
    I've seen studies they go to 80% of an estimated HRmax, and the measurements told them how likely they were really at 80%. But they still didn't test them higher.
    They got what they needed for whatever study they were running.

    I'd think the RER values would be the same for all really, 0.7 at rest, 1 at LT/AT threshold, 0.85 at cross-over.
    The HR increases will be faster for unfit of course.

    I went back over my VE/VCO2 for VT since that is never a number I dealt with.
    Avg 23.67, but really it dropped from around 28 to hang around 24-22 until end of test.


    I never had researched VE L/min until after the test - and didn't research it much then either.
    We did an after test VE max, and when I asked about it being so much higher than during my max part of test, he explained what I did know but hadn't really thought about - usually the choke point isn't the lungs or getting enough O2 (I knew from prior diving lessons the about 1/3 of O2 used in each breath estimate), but choke point was getting it to the muscles and making use of it.

    Never used the VT points for training, always LT/AT, so never felt need to dig into them. Just not enough info on them, but when I get a chance I think I will now.
  • yirara
    yirara Posts: 9,389 Member
    No problem. Thanks a lot @heybales
    I'm basically trying to normalize VCO2 and VO2 for normal RER ranges because there's something wrong in my data, and I'm trying to find the culprit. I see some indications with the rubbish data that I have (well, it's totally clear), but I need proper data, because I hate using rubbish data :D . Me, on the spectrum? *cough*
  • yirara
    yirara Posts: 9,389 Member
    edited March 2021
    Now we come full circle back to glycogen. So apparently I have about (rounded) 450 calories of energy combined from carbs and fatty acids until I hit the wall, plus a bit of extra time from proteins, lactic acid, anaerobically, etc. This pretty much corresponds to 120 minutes walking and less on stiff walks or 60 minutes running (plus some more stumbling around in confusion) and fits totally with my own observations. Hmm...
  • yirara
    yirara Posts: 9,389 Member
    edit: yes, I know RER =/ RQ, and an increase in VCO2 from buffering will be included in RER. Still, those 450 kcal for some reason fit my own observations.
  • heybales
    heybales Posts: 18,842 Member
    That's nice when something with the numbers and math fits an observation and allows a light-bulb moment.

    I think mine was after 1st test and doing math for calorie burn, discovering I was burning more than Garmin estimated, and looking back over a 2 month training period my measurements that seemed to say I'd lost LBM were very much likely true, and from where the measurements dropped and more glycogen/water stored for endurance cardio - meant hard fought winter muscle mass I was ticked to have lost.

    Which made me very gun shy on certain deficit levels while doing very variable training, so having a decent HR based calorie burn formula was of great interest and used and worked.

    I hope this helps with either training levels or refeeding strategies if you are desiring to do more, or just how to plan some training within the limits.
    That seems so low, 450 cal.
    Of course you have more fat calories available, we all do, and less intense effort should push the carbs our farther.
  • yirara
    yirara Posts: 9,389 Member
    It's a bit more than 450, as it includes warm-up, or in the case of hiking taking a bus or train to the starting point. But yeah, that's basically it. I ran 5km the evening before yesterday at my usual slow self. It was super relaxed and easy until my HR started to get past VT2 (I'm not super fit at the moment from being sick too often). I didn't bonk, but did that mildly the next morning when my breakfast was delayed due to a meeting. Felt not nice all day. I really should eat something after exercising.

    I think I found in my data what I was looking for, in the chronotropic index, the relationship between HR increase and oxygen consumption increase. I get a value of 1.06, which is normal. But I've been exercising for 10 or more years and should see a number below 1. 15 years ago a normal maxHR would have been higher, as would the normal VO2max have been. I have some HR data from 15 years ago where I got way past my current HRmax without getting anywhere max effort. My VO2max would have been that of a normal unfit person and be lower than now. This would give an index of 1.7-1.9 - way above what is still normal for unfit people (1.3ish max). But yeah, it doesn't show anymore as I've somehow managed to train my heart muscle a tiny bit over the years towards what's normal - despite exercising like crazy.
  • sijomial
    sijomial Posts: 19,811 Member
    What happens when you drink a load of sports drink while riding?
    Presumably that extends your limit by preserving your limited stores.

    A 2:1 glucose/fructose mix in your bottle would maximise your uptake.
  • yirara
    yirara Posts: 9,389 Member
    sijomial wrote: »
    What happens when you drink a load of sports drink while riding?
    Presumably that extends your limit by preserving your limited stores.

    A 2:1 glucose/fructose mix in your bottle would maximise your uptake.

    Yes, it does. A few years back I trained for a half marathon. I figured I can run 10km max before bonking. Thus I ran 5km intervals with walking breaks in which I consumed lots of gel. Got me to 18km, and then I got sick for several weeks for some reason and couldn’t partake in the race. I need to walk in order to consume anythIng due to reflux issues. But this is how I e.g. cycle or hike all day.
  • yirara
    yirara Posts: 9,389 Member
    Ugh, I'm still not fit again after eating too little carbs over a few days and going on a measly 5km run. Went on a cycle trip today. Just comfortable speed cycling around a town (around 80 watts I guess) on my everyday bike. And my legs feel like they're made of gum. Totally weak, heavy, useless. Only my legs, mind. No problem with breathing heavily or anything else. oh well, I'll get better again.
  • yirara
    yirara Posts: 9,389 Member
    Interesting new observation: There seems to be a correlation of sorts between carb intake and vt2 when running. I noticed before that I have days where my heartrate doesn't go up as quickly as I'm used to, but also where I go above my vt2 at a much lower level. After some observations I'm fairly confident that this somehow happens when I had a dinner with less carbs. Hmmm...
  • lorrpb
    lorrpb Posts: 11,464 Member
    yirara wrote: »
    mariomicro wrote: »
    @yirara I just wanted to add: search Dr. Benjamin Bikman's videos on Youtube. He's done a lot of research on the insulin to glucagon ratio, which, indirectly, deals with glycogen stores and will do a better job than I do at explaining the topic. Don't be put off by the fact he's often a guest of pro-keto channels, because what he deals with is of more general interest.

    Thanks a lot, I'll have a look. I assume it's not a Doctor Fung kind of person but an actual scientist? :D

    On that note: I have data! Lots of data! (meh, all in an image table!) Will be difficult to pull something useful out, but I go digging tonight. And I still have a couple of papers to read on glycogen stores.

    Is Dr Fung an actual person or is this an Asian Hate slur?! >:)
  • yirara
    yirara Posts: 9,389 Member
    lorrpb wrote: »
    yirara wrote: »
    mariomicro wrote: »
    @yirara I just wanted to add: search Dr. Benjamin Bikman's videos on Youtube. He's done a lot of research on the insulin to glucagon ratio, which, indirectly, deals with glycogen stores and will do a better job than I do at explaining the topic. Don't be put off by the fact he's often a guest of pro-keto channels, because what he deals with is of more general interest.

    Thanks a lot, I'll have a look. I assume it's not a Doctor Fung kind of person but an actual scientist? :D

    On that note: I have data! Lots of data! (meh, all in an image table!) Will be difficult to pull something useful out, but I go digging tonight. And I still have a couple of papers to read on glycogen stores.

    Is Dr Fung an actual person or is this an Asian Hate slur?! >:)

    Excuse me? A quick google would have told you everything you need to know.
  • lorrpb
    lorrpb Posts: 11,464 Member
    yirara wrote: »
    lorrpb wrote: »
    yirara wrote: »
    mariomicro wrote: »
    @yirara I just wanted to add: search Dr. Benjamin Bikman's videos on Youtube. He's done a lot of research on the insulin to glucagon ratio, which, indirectly, deals with glycogen stores and will do a better job than I do at explaining the topic. Don't be put off by the fact he's often a guest of pro-keto channels, because what he deals with is of more general interest.

    Thanks a lot, I'll have a look. I assume it's not a Doctor Fung kind of person but an actual scientist? :D

    On that note: I have data! Lots of data! (meh, all in an image table!) Will be difficult to pull something useful out, but I go digging tonight. And I still have a couple of papers to read on glycogen stores.

    Is Dr Fung an actual person or is this an Asian Hate slur?! >:)

    Excuse me? A quick google would have told you everything you need to know.

    I did google and Dr Fung gave no results, hence my question. 🤷🏻‍♀️
  • yirara
    yirara Posts: 9,389 Member
    lorrpb wrote: »
    yirara wrote: »
    lorrpb wrote: »
    yirara wrote: »
    mariomicro wrote: »
    @yirara I just wanted to add: search Dr. Benjamin Bikman's videos on Youtube. He's done a lot of research on the insulin to glucagon ratio, which, indirectly, deals with glycogen stores and will do a better job than I do at explaining the topic. Don't be put off by the fact he's often a guest of pro-keto channels, because what he deals with is of more general interest.

    Thanks a lot, I'll have a look. I assume it's not a Doctor Fung kind of person but an actual scientist? :D

    On that note: I have data! Lots of data! (meh, all in an image table!) Will be difficult to pull something useful out, but I go digging tonight. And I still have a couple of papers to read on glycogen stores.

    Is Dr Fung an actual person or is this an Asian Hate slur?! >:)

    Excuse me? A quick google would have told you everything you need to know.

    I did google and Dr Fung gave no results, hence my question. 🤷🏻‍♀️

    Cool! You found a woo-proof browser! Dr. Jason Fung, makes millions with peddling odd theories on weight loss and especially diabetes.

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